2009 Chevrolet Traverse Preview

[gm4life]

I dropped 16K on a Torrent (Theta based) with a 3400 so be careful what you guys say and I love it.

[gm4life]

Still like the Suburban and Tahoe more tho.

[thegriffon]

Kinda related but not really... did you know that in 2007, the Edge outsold the Acadia, OUTLOOK, and Enclave combined?

Err, two points:

1: that's not true, the Edge sold 130,125, the Lambdas sold 136,799. In Jan 08, BPG lambdas alone were close to the Edge in sales.

2: more than half of Edge sales are to fleets. It's not nearly so popular among retail buyers.

The best-selling midsize crossovers/SUVs are still the Trailblazer and Explorer (134,626 and 137,817 in '07 respectively). The Explorer led early in the year but the TB is now on top.

For 2008 the midsize rankings are:

1. Highlander

2. Edge

3. Trailblazer

4. Pilot (declining just as much as the TB and Explorer in '07, and as much as the TB in '08)

5. Equinox

6. Grand Cherokee

(Tahoe and

Acadia, both a class higher, would be ranked here)

7. Explorer

(Suburban, two classes higher, is here)

8. Murano

9. 4Runner

10. Commander

[thegriffon]

it's time to update/replace the Equinox.

next year.

[regfootball]

Obviously, I struck a nerve, as most here are in denial that these 4 Lambdas have little separating them---are they Cobalt/G5 rebadges, of course not.

But they are GREAT vehicles that will cannabilize each other. Playing Chevy dealers against Buick vs. Saturn vs. GMC means lower prices. Increased supply = Lower prices....that's not me, that's good old Adam Smith talking...trust me, my Chevy store won't let you get out of the showroom if you're going to walk across the street and buy an Acadia--we sell 5X their monthly sales--who's going to win that battle? Now he loses a sale, and I lose margin.

Anyone here with real dealership experience knows exactly what I'm talking about---not to mention the inevitable loss of marketing $ to the Traverse launch, but that's another story.

PS_Glad to see the W getting its due on these pages

your scenario about johnny dealer 'losing the battle' only applies if segment demand is eclipsed by GM overproducing.

CUV's are enfuego and GM call sell every lambda produced right now at great prices and profit and fast turn. the customer surely does not give a FF if your chevy dealer loses a sale to the saturn dealer. the customer may prefer the look of the outlook to the chevy. etc.

GM's flaw in the past has been overproducing and putting out bad product.

will the traverse flood the market? doubt it. CUV demand is insatiable for the foreseeable future. sedans are being cannibalized and the CUV segment is booming.

in my shopping, the outlook is the same price as the acadia similarly equipped. now i would expect chevy to be lower. but its a chevy. more chevys will be sold. less rare=cheaper and more common.

GMC will get denali and v8 options and other things about it to maintain pricing and keep volume moderate but sales profitable. Buick also. not everyone will have the Enclave or Acadia.

so if the product is top level and in demand which is the case here, GM will be ok and in the end its just the greedy dealer pissing and moaning. I don't see the dealer pissing and moaning because they took a sale from the lame ass Pilot or Highlander.

Lambda is the bomb. ride the lambda wave. Be a good dealer and focus your sale on more than just price. Service, friendly sales process, etc. all add into the equation. GM is making it really easy for you to make money on Lambdas by making them so good. Why bite the hand that feeds. Ride the wave.

Edited February 8, 2008 by regfootball

[ZL-1]

next year.

I wonder if the Captiva will make it to the US (maybe it's a little too small to be a direct replacement for the Equinox?) or if another new Theta will replace the Equinox.

[regfootball]

From a GM corporate standpoint, the point is...it makes no sense to have four such similar vehicles to cover the marketplace. Hence the argument of marketing and advertising dollars being diluted amongst the four.

And in GM's current situation, more than any it would be the Acadia or Enclave that is the most redundant. It makes NO sense to have one dealer network (BPG) offer two of the same products (minus interior and exterior styling) that are even priced very closely. One could argue that either the GMC nameplate or the Buick nameplate is aspirational enough to go after the higher-end part of this segment (Lexus RX350??) and I'd be tempted to argue Buick myself. But in no way do you need both under the same dealership roofs....!!!!!

Reg.....if the Acadia never existed from the beginning, being a consumer, if you went into that BPG dealership, you'd either buy the Enclave....or if you didn't quite jell with the styling.....and you knew anything about the marketplace.....you'd most likely go next door and get a Traverse (or I guess an OUTLOOK.)

In a real utopia, I think you'd need JUST a Traverse at Chevy dealerships.....and an Enclave at BPG dealerships.

Gee, i should go ask my boss right now. He has an Acadia (18-19 mpg, by the way).

I'll show him the traverse and the enclave pictures. Then i will ask him, "would you have bought the chevy?" "would you have bought the enclave?"

here is what he will say (and i can guarantee this or something like it)

"why would i want a chevy? that's bottom end"

"why would i want the buick? it's not trucky enough it looks like a princess car"

[regfootball]

Traverse/OUTLOOK/Acadia/Enclave, if you think about it, is eerily similar to the Uplander/Relay/Montana/Terraza.

But if GM must keep all four, it could possibly work if the OUTLOOK, in an MCE, were made to line up more with the Traverse, which, as stated, is the largest of the Lambdas. Make it have the same dimensions, market it more as a minivan replacement than the Acadia and Enclave, and you can at least create the perception that the four are different.

Traverse/OUTLOOK as people movers, and Acadia/Enclave as premium large CUVs.

the outlook needs a euro carlpeter infusion in the exterior and interior design (think vue meets insignia) and needs some unique options (redline, sports suspension, unique audio options). the interior is most of what is holding the outlook back, that and lack of ads. a more thoroughly saturnized outlook would be the best competitor to the princess of the press, the cx-9.

[regfootball]

The Aurora is much better than the Lucerne, and the Aurora came out in 2000, vs late 2005 or 2006 for the Lucerne. In 6 years Buick did nothing but make a bigger, heavier, uglier car, and cheapen it with cloth bench seats and a 3800. The Aurora had leather and real wood (Lucerne has fake) in the base car and was never on a rental car lot like the Buick. The Lucerne has a slight 0-60 advantage with the Northstar, but the Aurora has better handling and braking.

I have the 4.0 with every option, the Lucerne's interior has cheaper plastic and is shaped like the Impala. I love the center stack angled to the driver in the Aurora, and every button on the console is reachable in the Aurora when your elbow is on the arm rest. Do this in a Lucerne and you fingers touch air and can't reach the HVAC controls. I think going from the Aurora to the Lucerne is a downgrade, most would see it as a lateral move. Either way, Olds buyers weren't going to make a lateral move, when other brands had more modern technology and better products.

As for the Outlook, people don't want big Saturns. It is like the Mercedes R-class, that doesn't sell because people don't want a Merc Minivan looking thing. It just doesn't fit the brand. If the Trailblazer, Envoy and Outlook die, I am ok with 3 Lambdas, but they need a better small and a good midsize suv also. The Lambdas don't replace minivans either since most minivans start $8-10,000 less and offer more cargo space due to the lower load floor. People that need cheap or lots of space will stick with the van.

oddly enough, i always see R class quite frequently around here.

[regfootball]

Kinda related but not really... did you know that in 2007, the Edge outsold the Acadia, OUTLOOK, and Enclave combined?

2 row, cheaper price. lambda is about 5 grand min. more expensive across the board. Some new edges were selling for less than 22 grand during the 07 model year run.

[regfootball]

Err, two points:

1: that's not true, the Edge sold 130,125, the Lambdas sold 136,799. In Jan 08, BPG lambdas alone were close to the Edge in sales.

2: more than half of Edge sales are to fleets. It's not nearly so popular among retail buyers.

BULL$h! WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF THIS. My ford dealer cannot keep up with demand.

Edited February 8, 2008 by regfootball

[Cory Wolfe]

BULL$h! WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF THIS. My ford dealer cannot keep up with demand.

Need I remind you, once again, that what you see isn't relative to an entire country. Duh.

[motownr]

Is it confirmed that the Traverse is +4"?

The Chevy mouthpieces at McCormick didn't think it was true.

Can anyone confirm?

[thegriffon]

I wonder if the Captiva will make it to the US (maybe it's a little too small to be a direct replacement for the Equinox?) or if another new Theta will replace the Equinox.

The Captiva is perfect for the segment GM says it is aiming the Equinox at (compact crossovers), but even though it could have been called Equinox in some markets the current one is unlikely to be sold in the US. A new lwb Theta arrives in 2009 IIRC.

Edited February 9, 2008 by thegriffon

[turbo200]

BULL$h! WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF THIS. My ford dealer cannot keep up with demand.

you are being very trigger happy.

as an anecdote, the LA area serves well since the market penetration here is deep, the TV stations serve over 30 million here [something much higher wouldn't surprise me]. Incentives on the edge are plentiful, always being advertised here. from my view the Edge is a popular product, but a Ford that is being pushed, and I don't know if that's necessary or if it's just what Ford thinks it must do to compete. in any view, that definitely means they're not selling full steam ahead. I don't see anything for Lambdas, for comparison.

[Croc]

Resembling isn't the same as using the same dashboard though. As for your comparison in dash layout and spacing, The Lucerne is a large vehicle with a dash designed to accommodate 5 & 6 passenger seating (same with the Impala)... unlike the mid-sized Aurora which only had a 5-seater.

Aurora is full-sized. It was a G/H body. It was also larger than the W-body Intrigue, very similar to the modified-W Impala, which I believe is classified as a full-sized vehicle. Looking at the specs, the Aurora and Impala both have an interior passenger volume of 104 cubic feet.

Impala does have a bit higher "maximum cargo volume" number, though, because I believe its rear seats can fold.

It's also been a while since I've been inside an Impala, but aren't the rear seats low to the ground to increase headroom? I know other W-bodies have had that problem.

[CARBIZ]

your scenario about johnny dealer 'losing the battle' only applies if segment demand is eclipsed by GM overproducing.

CUV's are enfuego and GM call sell every lambda produced right now at great prices and profit and fast turn. the customer surely does not give a FF if your chevy dealer loses a sale to the saturn dealer. the customer may prefer the look of the outlook to the chevy. etc.

GM's flaw in the past has been overproducing and putting out bad product.

will the traverse flood the market? doubt it. CUV demand is insatiable for the foreseeable future. sedans are being cannibalized and the CUV segment is booming.

in my shopping, the outlook is the same price as the acadia similarly equipped. now i would expect chevy to be lower. but its a chevy. more chevys will be sold. less rare=cheaper and more common.

GMC will get denali and v8 options and other things about it to maintain pricing and keep volume moderate but sales profitable. Buick also. not everyone will have the Enclave or Acadia.

so if the product is top level and in demand which is the case here, GM will be ok and in the end its just the greedy dealer pissing and moaning. I don't see the dealer pissing and moaning because they took a sale from the lame ass Pilot or Highlander.

Lambda is the bomb. ride the lambda wave. Be a good dealer and focus your sale on more than just price. Service, friendly sales process, etc. all add into the equation. GM is making it really easy for you to make money on Lambdas by making them so good. Why bite the hand that feeds. Ride the wave.

Ok, you do make a couple good points, but I think in many markets it has gone beyond 'greedy' dealers. We are talking about dealer survival here. People's jobs and livelihoods. While GM thrashes around (perhaps deliberately?) trying to figure out the correct product mix, real people's lives are being destroyed. I don't know of any dealer in the greater Toronto area that is making money right now. I just had a friend crap out after 3 months at a major Mazda dealership because they were selling THIRTY FIVE new vehicles a MONTH. MADZA. In a heavily Asian neighborhood, too!

GM f$#ked up with neglecting the Chevy dealers for lambda, plain and simple. I don't know how far along the P-B-GMC amalgamation is going down there in the U.S., but it has been reality here forever. It makes no sense for those dealers to have TWO, while Chevy dealers are stuck with a Trailblazer they can't give away (not even with 0% 72 month financing, I might add), an Equinox that has languished for 4 years the same (unless you include the Sport, but nobody up here knows it exists). Chevy dealers can no longer make excuses for the Uplander and nobody here wants a $65k Tahoe.

I don't know how well the Traverse will do. My suspicion is that it is too little too late. In markets where Lexus and Acura are mopping up, the Traverse will be received with a big yawn.

Personally, GM can shove the Traverse and give Chevrolet a small, cheap 4 cylinder CUV.

[thegriffon]

Is it confirmed that the Traverse is +4"?

The Chevy mouthpieces at McCormick didn't think it was true.

Can anyone confirm?

According to the specs released by GM the Traverse is 205" long, compared to 200.7–201.8" for the other Lambdas. Cargo room behind the third row is listed as 26.1, up from 19.7, and third-row legroom is listed as 37.8" instead of 33.2", more than any other SUV still in production (the Excursion had more), although some minivans (Odyssey, Caravan etc.) have more.

A comparable minivan is not $8-10K cheaper than the Lambdas. There is no comparable minivan with a 275 hp V6 standard, but the Sienna comes close with 266. At $25,025 (incl. D+H) it is less than $4K cheaper than an Outlook. With even a 198 hp V6, a Grand Caravan is only $500 cheaper than an Outlook. A Town and Country with a mere 251 hp V6 is $3K more than an Enclave. Even a lwb Kia Sedona is a little over $4k less than an Outlook.

[thegriffon]

… Personally, GM can shove the Traverse and give Chevrolet a small, cheap 4 cylinder CUV.

That's coming too, to replace or supplement the HHR (remember that, ok it doesn't have awd, but the new one will).

A new midsize CUV is just around the corner too. It needs the 2.9 I4 for economy, but will probably make do with the 3.6 L V6.

[gm4life]

GM needs an Edge competitor. The Equinox is too old and tired to compete with Edge. Also with Mazda and Lincoln added Ford has really made a good use of this chasis. Make the next Equinox, a little shorter and wider. Keep the weight the same, which is pretty light in its class and we will have a winner. We do not have to clamor about interior anymore as GM is making the spectacular interiors in the industry period.

Actually the Equinox/Torrent is still pretty competitive, I know 4 people who just bought Equinox's and I was the outlaw and went with the Torrent. They are still very nice vehicles, not showing there age yet in my mind. By 2010 they will be ready for a re-fresh.

[regfootball]

Ok, you do make a couple good points, but I think in many markets it has gone beyond 'greedy' dealers. We are talking about dealer survival here. People's jobs and livelihoods. While GM thrashes around (perhaps deliberately?) trying to figure out the correct product mix, real people's lives are being destroyed. I don't know of any dealer in the greater Toronto area that is making money right now. I just had a friend crap out after 3 months at a major Mazda dealership because they were selling THIRTY FIVE new vehicles a MONTH. MADZA. In a heavily Asian neighborhood, too!

GM f$#ked up with neglecting the Chevy dealers for lambda, plain and simple. I don't know how far along the P-B-GMC amalgamation is going down there in the U.S., but it has been reality here forever. It makes no sense for those dealers to have TWO, while Chevy dealers are stuck with a Trailblazer they can't give away (not even with 0% 72 month financing, I might add), an Equinox that has languished for 4 years the same (unless you include the Sport, but nobody up here knows it exists). Chevy dealers can no longer make excuses for the Uplander and nobody here wants a $65k Tahoe.

I don't know how well the Traverse will do. My suspicion is that it is too little too late. In markets where Lexus and Acura are mopping up, the Traverse will be received with a big yawn.

Personally, GM can shove the Traverse and give Chevrolet a small, cheap 4 cylinder CUV.

-there are too many dealers, GM wants to downsize the dealer network, but overprotective franchise laws are in place and such that prevent proper downsizing. also, this is part of the reason they cannot kill brands. catch 22. it's not the customer's fault that a dealer has so much overhead they worry about selling only 35 cars in a month. the dealer should trim the fat. the owner is in it for real estate and makes the profit off that so i don't want to hear them piss and moan about not being able to sell cars in a tough economy. trim the fat cats salaries, also while we are at it.

what a lot of customers might want today is a sales experience direct to factory without money sucking dealers. why can't we have that? why do we need so many/such huge dealers at all? I would rather spec out my car on line and order it straight from detroit and not have to pay the extra overhead it costs to hold a local inventory, pay a receptionist, advertising, etc.

the customer has forced the automakers to trim way too much fat from engineering design and manufacturing. it's time to trim the fat from the sales side. sales, retail, and marketing are way too much of the cost of the car.

-GM maybe should have given lambda to chevy first however they rolled out the lambdas with product to fill 3 models first and gradually ramping up production on an unproven product, then adding the second plant for a more proven design at higher volume. to sell the chevy first would have set lower price points and then to try to move up the prices on the other 3 would be tough. this way, they set the price points on the other 3 and then come in the bottom side with the bargain chevy.

-GM is at fault for not keeping up with the equinox and trailblazer keeping them fresh but that is a management fault. the lambda is not to be at the expense of the TB/EQ and vice versa. GM simply needs to freshen product faster. its not the lambdas fault that chevy can't keep up on a regular schedule refreshing the rest of their product.

-you don't want the traverse probably because it will not sell as well in canada as it will in the US. in the US it will clean up. it is right to say chevy needs to have more smaller offerings that have more style and design and get better FE and smaller pricetags.

Edited February 9, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

According to the specs released by GM the Traverse is 205" long, compared to 200.7–201.8" for the other Lambdas. Cargo room behind the third row is listed as 26.1, up from 19.7, and third-row legroom is listed as 37.8" instead of 33.2", more than any other SUV still in production (the Excursion had more), although some minivans (Odyssey, Caravan etc.) have more.

A comparable minivan is not $8-10K cheaper than the Lambdas. There is no comparable minivan with a 275 hp V6 standard, but the Sienna comes close with 266. At $25,025 (incl. D+H) it is less than $4K cheaper than an Outlook. With even a 198 hp V6, a Grand Caravan is only $500 cheaper than an Outlook. A Town and Country with a mere 251 hp V6 is $3K more than an Enclave. Even a lwb Kia Sedona is a little over $4k less than an Outlook.

you can get a very loaded kia for about 25 real world pricing. leather, dvd, everything. most of the minivans on the market base out real world in the 18-22 range. even toyota whores the sienna out now for closer to 20 than 25 to start. you can't touch a lambda for less than 26 real world i bet. GMC ads here list starting prices on the acadia at 29 grand. An Acadia with very few options is quickly up at 32,33k and add leather or anything and bam 35 is no problem and they are getting those prices in the real world. The Mazda CX9 starts real world in the 28,29 range and has comparable pricing to the lambadas across the board.

276hp in the lambda with its baby fat = 250hp in the other vans. comparable performance. i am not sure what price point the 4.0 in the dodge becomes an option.

[Blake Noble]

what a lot of customers might want today is a sales experience direct to factory without money sucking dealers. why can't we have that? why do we need so many/such huge dealers at all? I would rather spec out my car on line and order it straight from detroit and not have to pay the extra overhead it costs to hold a local inventory, pay a receptionist, advertising, etc.

I actually rather like this idea.

I can spec out my Camaro exactly the way I want it and not have to worry about a "market adjusted" price tag or hidden dealer costs, except for maybe a delivery fee or something to get it to my driveway. Maybe they could offer a trip to Oshawa to me and I can watch the final assembly of my car take place, sort of like what BMW does to customers who opt to take Munich trip.

[smk4565]

According to the specs released by GM the Traverse is 205" long, compared to 200.7–201.8" for the other Lambdas. Cargo room behind the third row is listed as 26.1, up from 19.7, and third-row legroom is listed as 37.8" instead of 33.2", more than any other SUV still in production (the Excursion had more), although some minivans (Odyssey, Caravan etc.) have more.

A comparable minivan is not $8-10K cheaper than the Lambdas. There is no comparable minivan with a 275 hp V6 standard, but the Sienna comes close with 266. At $25,025 (incl. D+H) it is less than $4K cheaper than an Outlook. With even a 198 hp V6, a Grand Caravan is only $500 cheaper than an Outlook. A Town and Country with a mere 251 hp V6 is $3K more than an Enclave. Even a lwb Kia Sedona is a little over $4k less than an Outlook.

205 inches long is 5 more than a Tahoe, and 30 inches longer than an Escape, that is big vehicle.

I never said the minivan had comparable feature list, but for people that need a cargo hauler (contractor, flower shops, shuttle van, etc) or families that can only spend up to $25,000 on a new vehicle but need seats, they minivans are the vehicle of choice. Most minivans are 400 pounds lighter than the Lambdas, so 240-250 hp in the vans vs 275 in a heavier vehicle will make them accelerate about the same. The Lambdas don't offer the low cargo floor and total cargo volume that a van does, so it isn't a real replacement for a van, GM should still make a van.

[smk4565]

Resembling isn't the same as using the same dashboard though. As for your comparison in dash layout and spacing, The Lucerne is a large vehicle with a dash designed to accommodate 5 & 6 passenger seating (same with the Impala)... unlike the mid-sized Aurora which only had a 5-seater.

And 6 seater cars are terrible. They went out of style in the 1970s, Buick and Lincoln just tried to keep the dream alive for 30 years because they aren't in tune with current technology.

Aurora is 199.1 inches long, full size car. I wish it was midsize, it would handle better.

[Croc]

And 6 seater cars are terrible. They went out of style in the 1970s, Buick and Lincoln just tried to keep the dream alive for 30 years because they aren't in tune with current technology.

Aurora is 199.1 inches long, full size car. I wish it was midsize, it would handle better.

My Gen2 3.5 handles fantastically well. The reviews of the time did say though that the 3.5 handled slightly better due to the more favorable weight distribution (steel decklid vs. the aluminum one in the 4.0 except 2003 models, larger capacity fuel tank by 1 gal, lighter engine weight). The 4.0 saved some weight through aluminum decklid and 1 gal less fuel tank capacity, but the weight gain was all in front, so it's a much more front-heavy vehicle than the 3.5.

[Intrepidation]

I'm looking forward to seeing a smaller Equinox replacement, the current one is very dated and outclassed. The Only breathe of life that keeps it going is the 3.6L, so it finally has a good engine (that's not from China). Still, it looks dated (the MCE should have made it look more like or exactly like the FCV, which looks much more modern). The interior looks ok but it's horribly cheap and build quality is horrible. The last oen I was in had misaligned panels and even panels that were pulling away from the body with little force.

[enzl]

I'm looking forward to seeing a smaller Equinox replacement, the current one is very dated and outclassed. The Only breathe of life that keeps it going is the 3.6L, so it finally has a good engine (that's not from China). Still, it looks dated (the MCE should have made it look more like or exactly like the FCV, which looks much more modern). The interior looks ok but it's horribly cheap and build quality is horrible. The last oen I was in had misaligned panels and even panels that were pulling away from the body with little force.

I have to agree with your assessment of the 'Nox.

What makes things worse is that the Traverse is so big, it removes itself from consideration from alot of 5 pass CUV shoppers--It dwarfs the Tblazer it is essentially replacing. Lots of people (see CX7, Edge, et al.) have no interest in the +2 accomodations...my wife completely nixed the Lambdas based on the size--she simply feels that the excess yardage isn't needed. So, with the 'Nox deficiencies, Chevy (&GM) finds themselves on the wrong product cycle cadence for simply the hottest segment in the marketplace. Again.

[ZL-1]

The Captiva is perfect for the segment GM says it is aiming the Equinox at (compact crossovers), but even though it could have been called Equinox in some markets the current one is unlikely to be sold in the US. A new lwb Theta arrives in 2009 IIRC.

I could see consolidating both Captiva and Equinox in a single new model. Maybe a small Gamma based crossover could be offered below that.

[Croc]

I have to agree with your assessment of the 'Nox.

What makes things worse is that the Traverse is so big, it removes itself from consideration from alot of 5 pass CUV shoppers--It dwarfs the Tblazer it is essentially replacing. Lots of people (see CX7, Edge, et al.) have no interest in the +2 accomodations...my wife completely nixed the Lambdas based on the size--she simply feels that the excess yardage isn't needed. So, with the 'Nox deficiencies, Chevy (&GM) finds themselves on the wrong product cycle cadence for simply the hottest segment in the marketplace. Again.

Well, with the lambdas the size they are, the next-gen thetas will be there. I'd say the new VUE would fit the bill, and the new Equinox and GMC variant are just around the corner.

[K.C.]

I could see consolidating both Captiva and Equinox in a single new model. Maybe a small Gamma based crossover could be offered below that.

+1. With the Traverse, I agree there should be a restructuring of the crossover lineup. The Equinox is in desperate need of replacement, with the Sport model really the only one worth choosing for someone who wants a refined powertrain. The Captiva would be a good choice to bring over, imo.

[K.C.]

Oh, and a Gamma based Crossover like the one shown with the Beat would be great at the low end of the lineup. I keep forgetting what it is called though.

Oh yeah, the Groove. Thats it! My brain IS working today.

Edited February 9, 2008 by K.C.

[enzl]

Well, with the lambdas the size they are, the next-gen thetas will be there. I'd say the new VUE would fit the bill, and the new Equinox and GMC variant are just around the corner.

Right, Except the Vue is 500 lbs overweight already. What is a Captiva clone going to weigh? 4400lbs.? That's a short term solution at best. You can't haul around that kind of weight with a 4 cylinder (unless you commit to DI & a 6 speed), as that's the way all CRV's & most RAV4's are equipped.

I think we can both agree that a thorough redesign is in order, no? That's another platform, to go along with Delta, Ep variants, Gamma, Zeta & small trucks that all are currently getting or desperately needing serious revamps.

That's simply a tall order, for the best of companies--I haven't even gotten into alt. fuels, diesel, hybrids & battery tech---all of which will require committed funding in the short term.

They'er simply missing another golden opportunity to make $5k+/vehicle by jacking up $15k compacts into $22-28k CUVs. They can't afford that missed opportunity, IMO>

[Z-06]

GM misses something of the size of Tracker as it moved everything up in size and added weight. A SUV with about 3200-3500 lb can easily support four cylinders and top off with the DI 2.0 performance version. Not everybody needs a big CUV or SUV.

[thegriffon]

you can get a very loaded kia for about 25 real world pricing. leather, dvd, everything. most of the minivans on the market base out real world in the 18-22 range. even toyota whores the sienna out now for closer to 20 than 25 to start. you can't touch a lambda for less than 26 real world i bet. GMC ads here list starting prices on the acadia at 29 grand. An Acadia with very few options is quickly up at 32,33k and add leather or anything and bam 35 is no problem and they are getting those prices in the real world. The Mazda CX9 starts real world in the 28,29 range and has comparable pricing to the lambadas across the board.

276hp in the lambda with its baby fat = 250hp in the other vans. comparable performance. i am not sure what price point the 4.0 in the dodge becomes an option.

And this is why GM and Ford decided not to sell minivans anymore.

[enzl]

GM misses something of the size of Tracker as it moved everything up in size and added weight. A SUV with about 3200-3500 lb can easily support four cylinders and top off with the DI 2.0 performance version. Not everybody needs a big CUV or SUV.

100 % yes.

Abandoning B/small C sized SUV/CUV segment has hurt the General in many markets. Suzuki's SX4 could have been the basis---just as the Fiat Sedici in Europe shared, so could GM if they hadn't f'ed things up with both of those companies....

[CARBIZ]

Tracker customers were fiercely loyal and we sold/leased a ton of them. They were pretty tough trucks in their day; perhaps a little 'over kill' for their intended market. Even without a 6, we moved a lot of them. I would kill for a replacement.

[pow]

They'er simply missing another golden opportunity to make $5k+/vehicle by jacking up $15k compacts into $22-28k CUVs. They can't afford that missed opportunity, IMO>

Agreed. A jacked-up HHR, with the styling of a traditional cute ute and optional AWD, could be a great competitor against Rogue, CR-V, Patriot, Sportage, etc.

The HHR is, what, 3100 lbs and $16K?

Meanwhile the Equinox replacement can be a true midsize SUV, slotted between the small cute-ute and large Traverse. Theta seems worryingly narrow for that, though.

Edited February 9, 2008 by empowah

[The O.C.]

I have to agree with your assessment of the 'Nox.

What makes things worse is that the Traverse is so big, it removes itself from consideration from alot of 5 pass CUV shoppers--It dwarfs the Tblazer it is essentially replacing. Lots of people (see CX7, Edge, et al.) have no interest in the +2 accomodations...my wife completely nixed the Lambdas based on the size--she simply feels that the excess yardage isn't needed. So, with the 'Nox deficiencies, Chevy (&GM) finds themselves on the wrong product cycle cadence for simply the hottest segment in the marketplace. Again.

I do agree about the lack of an Edge type product. Even as enthusiastic as I am about the Lamdas, right now, I'd never ever buy one.....also because it's too big for my needs being single, etc. If there was a smaller, 5-seat Lambda, I'd go for that.....

Equinox and Torrent are simply way to outdated to even be considered a true competitor in the segment IMHO....

[smk4565]

And this is why GM and Ford decided not to sell minivans anymore.

GM and Ford gave up on minivans because theirs were drastically worse than the Japanese ones and Chrysler's. Just like GM has kind of given up on small SUVs like the Rav4 and CR-V and GM and Ford barely compete with the Fit, Yaris, Civic or Corolla. GM and Ford can't rely on big pickups and SUVs forever, at some point the Japanese will do that well also.

[regfootball]

205 inches long is 5 more than a Tahoe, and 30 inches longer than an Escape, that is big vehicle.

I never said the minivan had comparable feature list, but for people that need a cargo hauler (contractor, flower shops, shuttle van, etc) or families that can only spend up to $25,000 on a new vehicle but need seats, they minivans are the vehicle of choice. Most minivans are 400 pounds lighter than the Lambdas, so 240-250 hp in the vans vs 275 in a heavier vehicle will make them accelerate about the same. The Lambdas don't offer the low cargo floor and total cargo volume that a van does, so it isn't a real replacement for a van, GM should still make a van.

the lambda floors are too high for van use. maybe chevy will someday offer an epsilon 2 van. lighter and more functional.

[thegriffon]

GM and Ford gave up on minivans because theirs were drastically worse than the Japanese ones and Chrysler's. Just like GM has kind of given up on small SUVs like the Rav4 and CR-V and GM and Ford barely compete with the Fit, Yaris, Civic or Corolla. GM and Ford can't rely on big pickups and SUVs forever, at some point the Japanese will do that well also.

The Freestar was not "dramatically worse" as you put it. It was just due for replacement. The low transaction prices compared to a CUV is what convinced Ford to make the Flex a "crossover" instead of a "minivan", and why GM decided to kill the minivans based on the Lambda architecture. Most people don't need the extra cargo capacity or the low loading height.

As for the tracker, sure there's a market, but the Vue and Captiva would sell 8-12K+ a month in the US (even the HHR without awd sells 8K+ in a good month), and a smaller truck like the Tracker would sell half that, or less. Not even Toyota could sell 8K a month of the old small RAV4. Canada is just not that big a market to make a smaller truck a priority (the Gamma trucklets will probably not be that small, but more HHR-sized).

[thegriffon]

Toyota has a newish (later than the RAV4) smaller truck like the old Tracker in its portfolio (even rwd/awd), the Daihtasu Terios/Toyota Rush. There's a reason they don't sell it in many markets—people want something bigger.

[enzl]

The Freestar was not "dramatically worse" as you put it. It was just due for replacement. The low transaction prices compared to a CUV is what convinced Ford to make the Flex a "crossover" instead of a "minivan", and why GM decided to kill the minivans based on the Lambda architecture. Most people don't need the extra cargo capacity or the low loading height.

As for the tracker, sure there's a market, but the Vue and Captiva would sell 8-12K+ a month in the US (even the HHR without awd sells 8K+ in a good month), and a smaller truck like the Tracker would sell half that, or less. Not even Toyota could sell 8K a month of the old small RAV4. Canada is just not that big a market to make a smaller truck a priority (the Gamma trucklets will probably not be that small, but more HHR-sized).

The Vue used to sell that much by itself. The HHR is on the fade.

GM needs a sub-Theta--or a Theta type that doesn't weight more than a T-blazer!

The Vue/Captiva are outgunned at intro...not good.

[CARBIZ]

The Freestar was not "dramatically worse" as you put it. It was just due for replacement. The low transaction prices compared to a CUV is what convinced Ford to make the Flex a "crossover" instead of a "minivan", and why GM decided to kill the minivans based on the Lambda architecture. Most people don't need the extra cargo capacity or the low loading height.

As for the tracker, sure there's a market, but the Vue and Captiva would sell 8-12K+ a month in the US (even the HHR without awd sells 8K+ in a good month), and a smaller truck like the Tracker would sell half that, or less. Not even Toyota could sell 8K a month of the old small RAV4. Canada is just not that big a market to make a smaller truck a priority (the Gamma trucklets will probably not be that small, but more HHR-sized).

Agreed on the Freestar remark: it was an okay van plagued by the legacy of the Windstar, but not a horrible van over all. the Uplander/SV6 twins are doing okay up here, but it is getting harder and harder to justify them.

Your remarks on the HHR and Tracker are myopic, at best. Detroit needs to start paying attention to Canada because it is HERE that the trends start. Being as we pay $1 a gallon more than you guys, what sells here today will be selling down there next year. Just wait and see. Besides, GM needs to be thinking globally, and a competitive CUV would sell extremely well in Canada, as well as in Europe and South America. Once America joins the Rest of the World, it will do well there, too.

[The O.C.]

Detroit needs to start paying attention to Canada because it is HERE that the trends start. Being as we pay $1 a gallon more than you guys, what sells here today will be selling down there next year. Just wait and see.

How is the SMART predicted to do up in Canada? Or do you sell it up there already?

[Robert Hall]

How is the SMART predicted to do up in Canada? Or do you sell it up there already?

I think it's been on sale for a few years in Canada... I'll have to ask my Canadian friends if they see many when they go back to visit (but they are all from Regina, SK, though).

[MyerShift]

Wow! Aside from the sheepish rear end, this does look excellent, and the interior looks great too.

I inlcude myself among those thankful that this isn't a simp-le badge job of the other Lamba "giant wagons".

[Z-06]

How is the SMART predicted to do up in Canada? Or do you sell it up there already?

Smart sold its For Two Gen I. I think smart has been in Canada for about 4-5 years.

[smk4565]

The Freestar was not "dramatically worse" as you put it. It was just due for replacement. The low transaction prices compared to a CUV is what convinced Ford to make the Flex a "crossover" instead of a "minivan", and why GM decided to kill the minivans based on the Lambda architecture. Most people don't need the extra cargo capacity or the low loading height.

The Freestar was horrible, the GM vans were almost as bad. Of course they had low transaction prices, they were bad vans that had to be sold to rental fleets or given a $3500 rebate. If it was a great van, people would have paid more for it.

The Honda Odyssey outsold all 3 Lambdas combined last year, thus you could argue that people don't need crossover SUVs with similar length and weight to a Mercedes S600. The minivan market is still about 1 million units per year, it is a big segment, GM and Ford just gave up on it. I know it is impossible to compete in every market, but GM and Ford gave up on midsize cars in the late 90s because SUVs were the rage, now they are screwed and the Trailblazer and Explorer are headed for the grave while the Camry is selling 450,000 a year.