DIESEL ZETAS!

[smk4565]

GM is not taking Cadillac that upscale yet!

But what GM will do is give Cadillac a S-Class/7-Series competitor on Zeta.

The main goal of the DTS/DT7(which will be on Zeta) is to appeal to DTS buyers.

DTS buyers are dying, and the DTS and STS have horrid resale values that drive down the resale of other Cadillacs. I just saw a 2008 STS V8 with nav system and all options for $36,900 on Autotrader.com. That is over $20,000 in depreciation within the current model year. Cadillac must give up on the land barges if they ever want to be anything but a better version of Lincoln.

If the DT7 has a base price of $88,000 it is an S-class competitor, otherwise it's a Town Car competitor. Zeta's not good enough to compete with the S-class, GM knows that; the DT7 will be a 200+ inch long floaty car with plush seats and a 300 hp V6 costing $45,000-55,000. And they'll cling to 30,000 sales a year to a 70 and up crowd and limousine market.

[thegriffon]

Ahhh, a 750Li is $79K (less than an STS-V), and an LS 460L is just $72K. If the DT7 with 3.6 DI is even $60K it will be a 7-series competitor, but I suspect it will start a lot closer to $50K (still a good deal more than the MK S). Not even the DTS-L is a lwb Town Car competitor, but the there won't be a Town Car by then, will there? It will be the MK T wagon thingy.

[smk4565]

If the DT7 has a V6, that disqualifies it right away from competing with the big boys. The LS460 and S550 are 382 hp V8s as the low end engine, the 7-series is all new for 2009 and will have 407 hp as the base engine. The S-class is the standard, if Cadillac wants to challenge someone, they might as well go after the best. Cadillac will never get ahead of the Germans by beating them on price, people that shell out $95,000 for an S-class clearly don't care about 90% the car for 75% the price, they want the best and most prestigious car.

[ZL-1]

Where will you position it? Theoritically it should be positioned above the G-8, which means close to the 38-42K price bracket. Which means a competitor for the CTS. I do not think GM will allow that.

I was replying in the context of what Toyota vs. GM wrote. I'd probably allow for some pricing overlap between the top-end CT5/CT6 models and the softer (one could call it 'base') DT7. My belief is the wallet-voting at that price point would favour the CT5/CT6 and the softer variant of the DT7 would die shortly if offered. If produced (God willing it won't and we'll get a kick-ass DT7 leaving the softer stuff to Buick) it would serve as nothing more than a transitional model, 'the last of the Cadillac land barges' if you will.

Anyway, I'm more interested in how CAFE and CO2 regulations and gas prices will shape the industry over the next 15 to 20 years

smk, a question: are you aware of the S320CDI and S350 models, both V6s?

Edited February 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[Z-06]

I was replying in the context of what Toyota vs. GM wrote. I'd probably allow for some pricing overlap between the top-end CT5/CT6 models and the softer (one could call it 'base') DT7. My belief is the wallet-voting at that price point would favour the CT5/CT6 and the softer variant of the DT7 would die shortly if offered. If produced (God willing it won't and we'll get a kick-ass DT7 leaving the softer stuff to Buick) it would serve as nothing more than a transitional model, 'the last of the Cadillac land barges' if you will.

Anyway, I'm more interested in how CAFE and CO2 regulations and gas prices will shape the industry over the next 15 to 20 years

smk, a question: are you aware of the S320CDI and S350 models, both V6s?

A barge for Buick would be an ideal solution at that price range. But it will destine to alienate some customers from Caddy. CAFE and CO2 regs will definitely affect the race for HP. But over long term we will see more fuel efficient vehicles across the board. What is not good is these regulations no way support alternate fuels. Oil needs a competitor, which can compete a $1/gallon of gas, when the oil nations and companies go in the cut throat competition mode.

If he did would he be ranting? On second thought he would still find ranting regardless.

[ZL-1]

A barge for Buick would be an ideal solution at that price range. But it will destine to alienate some customers from Caddy. CAFE and CO2 regs will definitely affect the race for HP. But over long term we will see more fuel efficient vehicles across the board. What is not good is these regulations no way support alternate fuels. Oil needs a competitor, which can compete a $1/gallon of gas, when the oil nations and companies go in the cut throat competition mode.

IMHO Cadillac should not have barges. Its role has been defined: to compete with the global luxury brands. Re the fuel issues, it's all a metter of cost. When there is a cost-effective solution it will gain acceptance and market share.

Edited February 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[thegriffon]

I was replying in the context of what Toyota vs. GM wrote. I'd probably allow for some pricing overlap between the top-end CT5/CT6 models and the softer (one could call it 'base') DT7. My belief is the wallet-voting at that price point would favour the CT5/CT6 and the softer variant of the DT7 would die shortly if offered. If produced (God willing it won't and we'll get a kick-ass DT7 leaving the softer stuff to Buick) it would serve as nothing more than a transitional model, 'the last of the Cadillac land barges' if you will.

Anyway, I'm more interested in how CAFE and CO2 regulations and gas prices will shape the industry over the next 15 to 20 years

smk, a question: are you aware of the S320CDI and S350 models, both V6s?

Or the 730d, 730i, and the A8 2.8 FSI V6. Even the 740i and XJ8 have only 300 hp. The majority outside the US are 730ds, S 320 CDIs, and A8 3.0 TDIs. There isn't even enough volume for the 745d and S 420 CDI in some markets. Mercedes will soon offer a 4-cylinder S-Class.

[ZL-1]

Or the 730d, 730i, and the A8 2.8 FSI V6. Even the 740i and XJ8 have only 300 hp. The majority outside the US are 730ds, S 320 CDIs, and A8 3.0 TDIs. There isn't even enough volume for the 745d and S 420 CDI in some markets. Mercedes will soon offer a 4-cylinder S-Class.

Diesotto engine?

Edited February 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[Lamar]

smk, a question: are you aware of the S320CDI and S350 models, both V6s?

Apparently, if they're not here, they don't matter.

[smk4565]

smk, a question: are you aware of the S320CDI and S350 models, both V6s?

Yes, but they don't sell 6 cylinder S-classes in the USA anymore. They due in Europe due to $8 a gallon gas and government/limo use for cars that stay in the city and never go fast.

The S400 hybrid is a V6 plus electric, expected to deliver 40 mpg. If the DT7 (they should use CTS, DTS, etc, CT5 or CT6 sounds dumb) can beat a Civic or Aveo in gas mileage, I'd be fine with a V6, otherwise bring 400 horses from a DOHC V8.

Cadillac's global sales are about 1/4th of Mercedes or BMW. If they were a bigger player in foreign markets it would make more sense for them to have a diesel V6 in their flagship. But Cadillac seems reluctant to do a diesel or hybrid sedan in the USA, and they don't sell much outside the US. The design cars for the American market, the American market S-class is 382-612 hp and $88-180,00, that is what they need to build.

Edited February 3, 2008 by smk4565

[ocnblu]

I have info from someone recently departed from C&G that GME (the arm of GM in charge of passenger car diesel engines) has decided NOT to allow Holden to use the diesel in their VE Commodores.

[haypops]

GME has that kind of authority???

[Northstar]

I have info from someone recently departed from C&G that GME (the arm of GM in charge of passenger car diesel engines) has decided NOT to allow Holden to use the diesel in their VE Commodores.

So much for GM being a global company and working together to be as good of a carmaker as possible... some people just don't get it.

[Robert Hall]

GME has that kind of authority???

Apparently PCS is all-powerful.

[ocnblu]

I think it would be a fantastic way to redeem Zeta in NA and a nice addition to the line in AU to add this engine as an option to the platform.

[Chazman]

I have info from someone recently departed from C&G that GME (the arm of GM in charge of passenger car diesel engines) has decided NOT to allow Holden to use the diesel in their VE Commodores.

Why?

[Drew Dowdell]

Because GME the Verruca Salt of the automotive world..... and yes I know he's lurking.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I really don't know how much power PCS has. Judging by his posts and knowledge, he deals with manufacturing facilities and I'm not sure how he's tied to GME unless he just has their best interests at heart for some reason.

He mentioned embarking on a project that he was extremely excited about (For negative reason) at about the same time the Zeta plant in Canada started making the news and the CAW started whining. So, I assume that to be his project, maybe studying the viability of producing Zetas in NA. *Theoretically* that means he would have some input on the future of Holden (If all Zetas are made here/ If Zeta is canned) or the future of GMNA (IF Zeta is canned or sent strictly to China/The Middle East)

Keep in mind that PCS was also the one telling us that we wouldn't see a G8 ST and that the Denali XT was doomed from the start.

As far as the diesels go... I've heard both versions of the story and I believe there is more than one way to skin the cat. We have hybrid technology being fitted to Zeta, we also have the GMT900 bound diesel planned for a plant by itself. GM could easily 'quick fix' Zeta for it and then use the production capacity slated for the canceled Northstar replacement to build copies for Zeta.

As far as Cadillac goes; I certainly hope GM knows what it's doing. I really think canceling the N* was a mistake unless they incorporate the technology from it into the LS line and give it to Cadillac. Cadillac should receive both Zeta and Alpha and Zeta in 2012 is pretty far out. FWIW, I definitely prefer DTS/CTS to stupid DT6/CT-whatever nomenclature. I guess that's GM's cop out to not promoting the cars enough ("We'll inform the consumer by actually incorporating the BMW number lines into our products names!" ---Lame) Not to mention, I'm sure the consumer will constantly confuse Pontiac models with Cadillac models. Not smart, to associate your premiere division with your most damaged division IMO.

Edited February 3, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[smk4565]

As far as Cadillac goes; I certainly hope GM knows what it's doing. I really think canceling the N* was a mistake unless they incorporate the technology from it into the LS line and give it to Cadillac. Cadillac should receive both Zeta and Alpha and Zeta in 2012 is pretty far out. FWIW, I definitely prefer DTS/CTS to stupid DT6/CT-whatever nomenclature. I guess that's GM's cop out to not promoting the cars enough ("We'll inform the consumer by actually incorporating the BMW number lines into our products names!" ---Lame) Not to mention, I'm sure the consumer will constantly confuse Pontiac models with Cadillac models. Not smart, to associate your premiere division with your most damaged division IMO.

I don't think GM knows what they are doing. They don't know how to build a global luxury car, and they don't know how to build sedans that cost $75-100,000. The quote at the bottom of your posts that states how with the V8 dead and making cars off corporate platforms and corporate V6s makes them no better than Lincoln is very true.

2012 for a Zeta Cadillac is a joke, the Zeta platform came out in 2007, so Cadillac will get a 5 year old platform that was used for middle class sedans. That is like building and 08 Cadillac off of an 03 Impala chassis, although the DTS built on a 95 Aurora platform is basically that.

Sigma came out in 2003, since then the 5-series got an all new platform in 2004, and will get another all new platform in 2010. Cadillac needs to update platforms and engines more quickly, but I don't think GM gives them the money needed to do it. I hope Cadillac can come back, but since 2005, I've seen them fall more behind the Germans rather than catch up.

[ZL-1]

I don't think GM knows what they are doing. They don't know how to build a global luxury car, and they don't know how to build sedans that cost $75-100,000. The quote at the bottom of your posts that states how with the V8 dead and making cars off corporate platforms and corporate V6s makes them no better than Lincoln is very true.

2012 for a Zeta Cadillac is a joke, the Zeta platform came out in 2007, so Cadillac will get a 5 year old platform that was used for middle class sedans. That is like building and 08 Cadillac off of an 03 Impala chassis, although the DTS built on a 95 Aurora platform is basically that.

Sigma came out in 2003, since then the 5-series got an all new platform in 2004, and will get another all new platform in 2010. Cadillac needs to update platforms and engines more quickly, but I don't think GM gives them the money needed to do it. I hope Cadillac can come back, but since 2005, I've seen them fall more behind the Germans rather than catch up.

How easy is it for GM to finance the reengineering of platforms the way other automakers do? More: how easy is it for GM to access the capital markets given its inability to generate cash flow and its financial situation? It's easy to reengineer platforms like BMW ot Toyota do when they make the money they make.

Here are a few numbers from the GM and BMW Group 2006 annual reports. Given the fact that one is positive and the other is negative, there's no need to even look at exchange rates. Different accounting standards are in use in the US and Germany, but it would be one heck of a coincidence if the difference came from that.

1. Operating Cash Flow for the BMW Group (consolidated) in million euros, for years 2006/2005: 9,980/10,691

2. Operating Cash Flow for GM (consolidated) in million dollars, for years 2006/2005: (11,759)/(16,856)

Edited February 3, 2008 by ZL-1

[smk4565]

It's GM's own fault that they lose money and have negative cash flow. Consumers looking to buy a car don't care about GM's financial struggles, they want to buy a good car (or what they perceive to be good) so they buy Hondas, BMWs and Toyotas. BMWs are good cars because they constantly innovate and re-engineer their products.

I wish they would just sell Cadillac to someone that can turn them back into a great American car company that builds world class vehicles. GM is more concerned with pumping money into 4 of their damaged and dying brands than saving their second most important one.

[ZL-1]

It's GM's own fault that they lose money and have negative cash flow. Consumers looking to buy a car don't care about GM's financial struggles, they want to buy a good car (or what they perceive to be good) so they buy Hondas, BMWs and Toyotas. BMWs are good cars because they constantly innovate and re-engineer their products.

I wish they would just sell Cadillac to someone that can turn them back into a great American car company that builds world class vehicles. GM is more concerned with pumping money into 4 of their damaged and dying brands than saving their second most important one.

That's not an option

[Drew Dowdell]

It's GM's own fault that they lose money and have negative cash flow. Consumers looking to buy a car don't care about GM's financial struggles, they want to buy a good car (or what they perceive to be good) so they buy Hondas, BMWs and Toyotas. BMWs are good cars because they constantly innovate and re-engineer their products.

Define "good". I wouldn't touch an out of warranty BMW with a 109 foot pole.

I've been driving my BF's '04 Honda CRV around for a few days as the Cadillac isn't really appropriate to be hauling construction materials in. Apparently the check engine light has been on for weeks, it hasn't had an oil change, and he thought the air filter was for the climate control system <1/2 point for effort>. It still runs fairly smooth given all of that. I've been knocking out the little problems on the thing here and there. <Who puts the oil filter on the back wall of the engine!?! I mean really?>. It's held up fairly well considering the neglect it's had over it's life.

However..... the doors feel light and tinny. I definately don't feel as safe as when I'm in the CTS or even Dominic's Alero. The rear gate closes like reg's "screen door on a southern tin shack" reference. The seats can best be described as "groomed mouse fur". The under seat storage bin fell out and I can't get it to sit quite right in the track.

While the Honda might start every time regardless of how long it's been since an oil change, I really don't perceive it to be any better than an Equinox. In fact, the 'Nox feels more substantial just when slamming the door.

We test drove an Astra 3-door over the weekend. It feels wwaaaayy higher quality than the CRV. He loved it and is seriously considering it.... but we need to wait to see what is happening with Germany. Maybe his Astra will say "Opel" on it instead of "Saturn". :AH-HA_wink:

Back on point.... the age of the platform doesn't really matter much as long as the platform can be refined and kept up to date. Prior to the current generation of Camry, the Camry was on the same platform for nearly 15 years. Sure they updated it along the way and called it a new platform... but it really was the same thing.

The only difference between the W-body and the Camry platforms over time was that the W-body was always just called W-body... the Camry platform got a new name when it was revised.

[Z-06]

I can see a family of diesels being utilized for the Zeta rather than only two engines.

Is there a plan from GM to see a higher displacement diesel V-6 (3.6L or equivalent) any time soon?

[smk4565]

I consider BMW a good car because the 3 and 5 series win awards and magazine comparisons like crazy and have for nearly 20 years. They are also strong sellers, and BMW has the best resale value of any luxury brand. They usually rank top 10 in dependability by JD Power, they may have some mechanical problems but they usually last a long time.

Of course the CR-V doesn't feel as a solid as a CTS, the CTS is a good car and the CR-V is a $17,000 piece of junk. Honda makes a lot of good vehicles, Toyota has average vehicles, but a great reputation and people buy that reputation. GM has dated cars that are sold to rental lots and local governments.

A diesel rear drive Impala would get better gas mileage than a 4 cylinder Malibu. CAFE is no excuse for GM to not have a rear drive Impala on sale within 1 year, the real reason is wanting to save R&D dollars for trucks.

[cyclonic]

About time there was a freakin' Diesel added.

[Drew Dowdell]

I consider BMW a good car because the 3 and 5 series win awards and magazine comparisons like crazy and have for nearly 20 years. They are also strong sellers, and BMW has the best resale value of any luxury brand. They usually rank top 10 in dependability by JD Power, they may have some mechanical problems but they usually last a long time.

Self-fulfilling prophecy much? When all the comparisons go like "Can these other brands meet or beat the standards we think BMW has set?" then the comparison is not a Car1 v. Car2 v. Car3 v. Car4. The comparison becomes "How much like Car1 are Car2, Car3, and Car4?"

All the brands are trying to be anointed King by the press. BMW is not a best seller because it's the "best" car. It's a best seller because people have been told it's the best car by the press for the past 20 years. The CTS, 3-series, 5-series, TL, IS, A4, C-Class, G35 all perform close enough that most of the differences come down to things only noticed on the track. The real differences are things like interior design and quality, fuel efficiency, room and utility, and over all fit and finish. The 3-Series may have the smoothest engine, but the interior is majorly outclassed by the CTS and A4. It's out done in terms of comfort by the TL and IS. The CTS, G35, and A4 all pull corners with Gs that meet or exceed the 3-series. The CTS is also one of the safest of the bunch. I'd also pick the CTS <from my own experience> and TL over the BMW in terms of reliability. Suzy McMansion wants a BMW because her husband read the latest BMWTrend and because it will annoy Tammy Trailerpark at work.

So... No, it isn't clear that BMW is the ultimate driving machine..... however it's the ultimate PR machine.

[Chazman]

So... No, it isn't clear that BMW is the ultimate driving machine..... however it's the ultimate PR machine.

I have to disagree. BMW's are really good - AND they have a good PR machine.

I drive a CTS. It's a great car. Certainly right up there with a BMW. But the BMW is just a little better. Steering more direct. Motor just a little sweeter. Chassis and brakes alittle more responsive.

Yep, BMW's are "all that". Now if people choose to buy them because they can actually appreciate those subtle differences or because they simply want the image, well that's a whole different story.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have to disagree. BMW's are really good - AND they have a good PR machine.

I drive a CTS. It's a great car. Certainly right up there with a BMW. But the BMW is just a little better. Steering more direct. Motor just a little sweeter. Chassis and brakes alittle more responsive.

Yep, BMW's are "all that". Now if people choose to buy them because they can actually appreciate those subtle differences or because they simply want the image, well that's a whole different story.

I'm not saying that BMWs aren't really good. Read and consider my whole post. Yes there are things BMW does better than anyone else. However, there are other areas where BMW is eclipsed by it's competitors. Note the dash layout that hasn't really changed all that much since about 1995. There is more to a car than the engine, steering, and brakes.

[turbo200]

Define "good". I wouldn't touch an out of warranty BMW with a 109 foot pole.

I've been driving my BF's '04 Honda CRV around for a few days as the Cadillac isn't really appropriate to be hauling construction materials in. Apparently the check engine light has been on for weeks, it hasn't had an oil change, and he thought the air filter was for the climate control system <1/2 point for effort>. It still runs fairly smooth given all of that. I've been knocking out the little problems on the thing here and there. <Who puts the oil filter on the back wall of the engine!?! I mean really?>. It's held up fairly well considering the neglect it's had over it's life.

However..... the doors feel light and tinny. I definately don't feel as safe as when I'm in the CTS or even Dominic's Alero. The rear gate closes like reg's "screen door on a southern tin shack" reference. The seats can best be described as "groomed mouse fur". The under seat storage bin fell out and I can't get it to sit quite right in the track.

While the Honda might start every time regardless of how long it's been since an oil change, I really don't perceive it to be any better than an Equinox. In fact, the 'Nox feels more substantial just when slamming the door.

We test drove an Astra 3-door over the weekend. It feels wwaaaayy higher quality than the CRV. He loved it and is seriously considering it.... but we need to wait to see what is happening with Germany. Maybe his Astra will say "Opel" on it instead of "Saturn". :AH-HA_wink:

Back on point.... the age of the platform doesn't really matter much as long as the platform can be refined and kept up to date. Prior to the current generation of Camry, the Camry was on the same platform for nearly 15 years. Sure they updated it along the way and called it a new platform... but it really was the same thing.

The only difference between the W-body and the Camry platforms over time was that the W-body was always just called W-body... the Camry platform got a new name when it was revised.

First, critical praise from various sources who test many different cars for a living is usually a good barometer for the quality of a car. Second, and onto why I quoted you here, the problem is you're comparing a CR-V originally released in 2002 to the Nox, that was released in '05. Back in '02, the CR-V was pretty cutting edge and quality was good compared to the competition [remember the last Rav4, I don't want to] Compare the new gen CR-V, released in '06 as an '07MY, and it blows away the Nox in the quality department. Honda used to be about really basic, functional, practical vehicles that were incredibly reliable. That's changed with the new gen of products as they are seeking to be considered upmarket and fashionable.

[BatmanGTO]

There is more to a car than the engine, steering, and brakes.

Holy Cow We Have Brakes????????

[rkmdogs]

Diesels are a good thing, but there are downside items as well. To treat diesel as the solution for ALL cars would be extremely shortsighted. No fuel should again become a monopoloy as gasoline has - we need to learn that lesson well.

Some of the negatives are:

-Diesel is already more expensive than gasolineOnly in this country!

-Diesel is not easy to find (trust me, I drive one everyday)It is easier to find than E85!

-Diesel is much more difficult to bring into emissions complianceIt is already there!

-Diesel is a petroleum product, and would not solve the supply problem nor dent our importation of oil enough to matter.

-Biodiesel has a host of issues when being used in modern diesel engines from incompatibility with the mechanicals to the tendency to solidify(especially in colder weather). B5 (5% bio/95% petro diesel) can run in most engines and B20 can work in many engines. Beyond those relatively low percentages, the problems become much more significant - especially as you approach B100 (vegetable oil). Technology is progessing on these issues but has an uncertain future at this point.

- Manfacturers generally do not build diesel engines to be compatible with biodiesel.An easy switcheroo!

So while beneficial, and having an important role in our future fuel supply, biodiesel is far behind e-85 as an immeditely viable alternative.And how will you deliver E-85 to gas stations?--- you cannot run it thru the national pipeline!

As has been pointed out above, American consumer perception of diesels is less than positive (though largely incorrect). This also will temper the automakers' willingness to bring them to market here.

And SMK, your information on ethanol is outdated and flawed - get caught up.Ethanol is more difficult to distribute, because of its corrosiveness. Feedstocks based on corn are in short supply, since corn is a food item. Brasil's base is sugar cane!-- after the sugar has been extracted---- but we don't grow enough due to Federal restrictions!