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DIESEL ZETAS!

Camino LS6

By Camino LS6
in Heritage Marques

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Newbiewar Newbie

Newbiewar

Posted
Posted

hrmmm... i love diesel... something like the corvette could have 40 mpg and still 400 hp... would be nice to see this in a performance sedan.

but many people equate diesel with dirt, or smoke, things that are worse for enviornment

smk4565 Mentor

smk4565

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This is an obvious move, I only wonder why it takes them 18 months to put the diesel engine in, they should have that for sale this year. The diesel V6 should be offered in the SRX and CTS for 09 model year as well. Diesel is the solution to a lot of CAFE problems, I'd love to see the diesel V8 in Cadillac sedans (assuming they ever build one that isn't in the entry level class).

I think GM is making a mistake by focusing more on ethanol rather than diesel. Bob Lutz seems to think diesel won't catch on in the USA, but when BMW and Mercedes do it, others will copy. In Pittsburgh ethanol is sold at 2 gas stations, vs hundreds or thousands possibly that sell diesel. Plus ethanol doesn't save the consumer any money, diesel will.

A hybrid diesel (S400 hybrid gets 40 mpg highway) would be great for GM to offer, but the cost of that would probably only work on a Cadillac.

toesuf94 Newbie

toesuf94

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This is an obvious move, I only wonder why it takes them 18 months to put the diesel engine in, they should have that for sale this year. The diesel V6 should be offered in the SRX and CTS for 09 model year as well. Diesel is the solution to a lot of CAFE problems, I'd love to see the diesel V8 in Cadillac sedans (assuming they ever build one that isn't in the entry level class).

I think GM is making a mistake by focusing more on ethanol rather than diesel. Bob Lutz seems to think diesel won't catch on in the USA, but when BMW and Mercedes do it, others will copy. In Pittsburgh ethanol is sold at 2 gas stations, vs hundreds or thousands possibly that sell diesel. Plus ethanol doesn't save the consumer any money, diesel will.

A hybrid diesel (S400 hybrid gets 40 mpg highway) would be great for GM to offer, but the cost of that would probably only work on a Cadillac.

For years the Germans have been putting small displacement high torque diesels in the S-class...and I envy them every time I ride in one or drive one - Nothing like the thrust those engines produce all the way up to the fuel cut off. Get the US onto BIO diesel and get these engines in ALL of the cars and the problem is solved and WE still get tire melting torque! WIN WIN WIN. I would take ANYTHING new that GM came out with in a diesel over ANY other engine in the line up (excluding Corvette)!

Camino LS6 Newbie

Camino LS6

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Diesels are a good thing, but there are downside items as well. To treat diesel as the solution for ALL cars would be extremely shortsighted. No fuel should again become a monopoloy as gasoline has - we need to learn that lesson well.

Some of the negatives are:

-Diesel is already more expensive than gasoline

-Diesel is not easy to find (trust me, I drive one everyday)

-Diesel is much more difficult to bring into emissions compliance

-Diesel is a petroleum product, and would not solve the supply problem nor dent our importation of oil enough to matter.

-Biodiesel has a host of issues when being used in modern diesel engines from incompatibility with the mechanicals to the tendency to solidify(especially in colder weather). B5 (5% bio/95% petro diesel) can run in most engines and B20 can work in many engines. Beyond those relatively low percentages, the problems become much more significant - especially as you approach B100 (vegetable oil). Technology is progessing on these issues but has an uncertain future at this point.

- Manfacturers generally do not build diesel engines to be compatible with biodiesel.

So while beneficial, and having an important role in our future fuel supply, biodiesel is far behind e-85 as an immeditely viable alternative.

As has been pointed out above, American consumer perception of diesels is less than positive (though largely incorrect). This also will temper the automakers' willingness to bring them to market here.

And SMK, your information on ethanol is outdated and flawed - get caught up.

K.C. Newbie

K.C.

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I think that has more diesel engined vehicles become available, the accessability of diesel gas will increase.

smk4565 Mentor

smk4565

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I remember hearing as diesel became more popular, and production rose, that the cost of it could drop below gas. A year or 2 ago diesel was priced about the same. The 335d averages 7 mpg higher than the 335i, that is 33% increase in mileage vs maybe 10% increase in the cost of diesel fuel. Ethanol is less available and while it costs less, the E85 Impala gets about 15 mpg vs 21 for gas, so the savings go away.

Obviously diesel is not the solution to everything, a diesel engine does cost more (but they run for 500,000 miles). I think for trucks it is a no brainer option, good thing to offer in Cadillacs. A 4 cylinder turbo diesel could be used in a Malibu or other small-midsize car or small SUV. Offering flex fuel and hybrid is good too, those are often cheaper to do so for Cobalt/Malibu/Saturns that is a good thing to offer. GM has so many products they need a mix of all to hit CAFE guidelines but more importantly win consumers back from the imports.

Camino LS6 Newbie

Camino LS6

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I remember hearing as diesel became more popular, and production rose, that the cost of it could drop below gas. A year or 2 ago diesel was priced about the same. The 335d averages 7 mpg higher than the 335i, that is 33% increase in mileage vs maybe 10% increase in the cost of diesel fuel. Ethanol is less available and while it costs less, the E85 Impala gets about 15 mpg vs 21 for gas, so the savings go away.

Obviously diesel is not the solution to everything, a diesel engine does cost more (but they run for 500,000 miles). I think for trucks it is a no brainer option, good thing to offer in Cadillacs. A 4 cylinder turbo diesel could be used in a Malibu or other small-midsize car or small SUV. Offering flex fuel and hybrid is good too, those are often cheaper to do so for Cobalt/Malibu/Saturns that is a good thing to offer. GM has so many products they need a mix of all to hit CAFE guidelines but more importantly win consumers back from the imports.

As I said, a mix is required. The price of ethanol will be moving downward while the efficiency will be increasing- gasoline and diesel are headed the other way. The domestic nature of ethanol is also nothing to be overlooked.

regfootball Community Regular

regfootball

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love diesel. my dad was a diesel mech (farm implements anyways). love the rattle.

anyways, diesel right now here is usually .40 to .60 higher / ga.

Rabbit gas = 17 grand. Rabbit TDI = prob 5 grand more. jettas anyways.

Love diesel, would love to have one, but the economics and public opinion really fight it.

The ecopsychos really only want electric and will find a justification to badmouth any outher propulsion source. They think electricity is free from bad. Typical shallow thinking.

California itself conspires to keep diesel cars out of this country. Then there are the folks that print things saying diesel emissions is a direct cause of cancer. etc.

I like how everyone is trying to skin the cat in different ways, but diesel is worthy of greater market penetration in the US. We need to get a few cars in here to sell to see if it becomes doable on a broad scale.

The chinese park avenue as a diesel would be an awesome grand tourer. Our old electra diesel was amazing.

pow Newbie

pow

Posted
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love diesel. my dad was a diesel mech (farm implements anyways). love the rattle.

anyways, diesel right now here is usually .40 to .60 higher / ga.

Rabbit gas = 17 grand. Rabbit TDI = prob 5 grand more. jettas anyways.

Love diesel, would love to have one, but the economics and public opinion really fight it.

The ecopsychos really only want electric and will find a justification to badmouth any outher propulsion source. They think electricity is free from bad. Typical shallow thinking.

California itself conspires to keep diesel cars out of this country. Then there are the folks that print things saying diesel emissions is a direct cause of cancer. etc.

I like how everyone is trying to skin the cat in different ways, but diesel is worthy of greater market penetration in the US. We need to get a few cars in here to sell to see if it becomes doable on a broad scale.

The chinese park avenue as a diesel would be an awesome grand tourer. Our old electra diesel was amazing.

Also it takes more crude to make a gallon of diesel than gasoline. Diesel is more energy dense than gas.

Croc Newbie

Croc

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Also it takes more crude to make a gallon of diesel than gasoline. Diesel is more energy dense than gas.

But biodiesel can run on diesel engines with only a software modification. So in theory, a diesel engine could be fueled with no crude oil.

smk4565 Mentor

smk4565

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It's alive and well.Matter of fact ,Cadillac may get TWO Zeta sedan's :AH-HA_wink: .

Ooo good, 2 Cadillacs based off a Pontiac/Chevy platform.

Every Cadillac (minus the XLR) should have a diesel option, BTS, CTS, Zeta car, Escalade, etc. If they don't do it, they'll just be chasing the Germans in that also. I know Lutz will claim it costs $4000 more to do a diesel, but the Mercedes GL class diesel meets or beats the Tahoe Hybrid in mileage (both are very close in size and weight) and the Tahoe hybrid is a $9100 extra cost, $4,000 is a bargain compared to that.

haypops Newbie

haypops

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Also it takes more crude to make a gallon of diesel than gasoline. Diesel is more energy dense than gas.

Actually there are more gal of diesel in a barrell of crude oil then if the crude oil were refined to gasoline. Historically diesel cost less than gasoline. I think in Mexico, etc. it still is less. Increase in cost of diesel may be to get the sulfur out. Another posted ridiculed the notion that diesel is carcinogenic. The evidance is overwhelming. However, it could well be that "clean diesel" is "healthier" diesel.

FUTURE_OF_GM Newbie

FUTURE_OF_GM

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Plans of having a diesel engine in Cadillac's Zeta sedan has been cancelled.

This doesn't make any sense... Why would GM do that?

(I'm not questioning you; rather GM's judgement)

I guess we'll see the merit of it soon enough.

smk4565 Mentor

smk4565

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This doesn't make any sense... Why would GM do that?

(I'm not questioning you; rather GM's judgement)

I guess we'll see the merit of it soon enough.

Why would GM cancel a DOHC V8 for Cadillac when Audi, BMW and Mercedes all have DOHC V8s and V10s or V12/W12 as well. GM likes to follow the Ford-Lincoln, Honda-Acura model. It's easier and cheaper to just make entry level luxury cars with the corporate V6 on the corporate platform.

Camino LS6 Newbie

Camino LS6

Posted
  • Author
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You don't need any modifications to run biodiesel in a diesel engine. The only time you need a special setup is if you live in the frozen white north like me and it gets cold enough for the biodiesel to congeal. Even then all you need is a seperate tank, a fuel line heater and a way to switch between tanks.

Actually not true beyond B5 biodiesel, modern common-rail diesels have major issues with any higher concentrations. Older more simple diesels don't have these issues.

Camino LS6 Newbie

Camino LS6

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  • Author
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It's alive and well.Matter of fact ,Cadillac may get TWO Zeta sedan's :AH-HA_wink: .

Since the plan has been for Zeta to replace Sigma, this really isn't much of a surprise.

Toyota.vs.GM Newbie

Toyota.vs.GM

Posted
Posted (edited)
Since the plan has been for Zeta to replace Sigma, this really isn't much of a surprise.

It's not the next CTS.Take a guess,

here's a clue:Cadillac has not competed in this segment for years. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited by Toyota.vs.GM
ZL-1 Newbie

ZL-1

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It's not the next CTS.Take a guess,

here's a clue:Cadillac has not competed in this segment for years. :AH-HA_wink:

Next-Gen DTS/STS/DT7 and an ultra-lux sedan? I think an ultra-lux sedan might suicidal at this point. IMHO there's still stuff to fix in Cadillac before venturing into that segment.

Drew Dowdell Grand Master

Drew Dowdell

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It's not the next CTS.Take a guess,

here's a clue:Cadillac has not competed in this segment for years. :AH-HA_wink:

How many years? :AH-HA_wink:

Sedanette anyone?

cady4701a.JPG

pow Newbie

pow

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Actually not true beyond B5 biodiesel, modern common-rail diesels have major issues with any higher concentrations. Older more simple diesels don't have these issues.

There's a guy in one of them there internets, who insists on using B99 in his Passat. He had to rebuild his engine after 30k miles, and he still insists on using it.

Z-06 Newbie

Z-06

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There's a guy in one of them there internets, who insists on using B99 in his Passat. He had to rebuild his engine after 30k miles, and he still insists on using it.

Just like the guy who put sand in his Audi engine?

ZL-1 Newbie

ZL-1

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Those are the two Cadillac Zeta sedan's,the DTS/DT7 sedan and Cadillac's 7-Series/S-Class competitor.

IMO Ultra-Lux is different from a 7-Series competitor which (again IMO) is not an Ultra-Lux car. DTS/DT7 should be that single car, maybe offered in softer and sportier configurations.

Toyota.vs.GM Newbie

Toyota.vs.GM

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IMO Ultra-Lux is different from a 7-Series competitor which (again IMO) is not an Ultra-Lux car. DTS/DT7 should be that single car, maybe offered in softer and sportier configurations.
GM is not taking Cadillac that upscale yet!

But what GM will do is give Cadillac a S-Class/7-Series competitor on Zeta.

The main goal of the DTS/DT7(which will be on Zeta) is to appeal to DTS buyers.

ZL-1 Newbie

ZL-1

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GM is not taking Cadillac that upscale yet!

Good! That would be suicide right now.

But what GM will do is give Cadillac a S-Class/7-Series competitor on Zeta.

The main goal of the DTS/DT7(which will be on Zeta) is to appeal to DTS buyers.

I still think they should be the same design, with the same tech goodies/gadgets, but two flavours of driving characteristics: one plusher, the other sportier.

btw, does whay does a traditional Zeta Cadillac mean for Buick? Now that the plan seems to be pushing Cadillac upmarket to stand next to the Germans, it wouldn't make much sense to take breathing room away from Buick, would it?

Z-06 Newbie

Z-06

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Good! That would be suicide right now.

I still think they should be the same design, with the same tech goodies/gadgets, but two flavours of driving characteristics: one plusher, the other sportier.

btw, does whay does a traditional Zeta Cadillac mean for Buick? Now that the plan seems to be pushing Cadillac upmarket to stand next to the Germans, it wouldn't make much sense to take breathing room away from Buick, would it?

Where will you position it? Theoritically it should be positioned above the G-8, which means close to the 38-42K price bracket. Which means a competitor for the CTS. I do not think GM will allow that.

thegriffon Newbie

thegriffon

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DTS/DT7, early 2011.

S-Class/7-Series competitor,summer 2012.

Ahh, the two Zetas for LGR are not both Cadillacs. One is the DT7 (STS/DTS replacement), the other is the Lucerne/Park Avenue. Although a swb DT7, closer in size to the STS, would appeal in European and some other export markets, a standard wheelbase similar to the XJ8-L and an even longer Limousine version are more likely. Both the Buick and Cadillac should survive CAFE on the strength of overseas production and sales and even the Northstar will survive in certain export markets.

Note the new designation for the large rwd Cadillac will be DT7, i.e. the D-series (for Deville, also follows A- B- and C- Series), 7-Series competitor, just as the CT5 will be the 5-series competitor and the CT6 the 6-series competitor. That doesn't mean pricing will be comparable, but it should be somewhere between the LS430/DTS and the LS460L.

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