Union labor under attack

[CaddyXLR-V]

So this brings us to the point I have always had floating around on these topics, the cost of living and scales of income has been on the rise in many areas, then in others time is just sitting still. This is why I support organized labor.

The cost of doing business is also going up since inflation is going up. But can GM adjust their prices to make up for it? No they cant. So just by giving their workers cost of living increases, GM would lose more money than the year before. Then raises on top of the cost of living increase, GM loses even more money. At that rate, GM will be dead. Then I guess GMs workers will really be able to feed their families right? Your posts are one sided. Lets raise everyones salary, but lets not raise prices of the products they produce. It doesnt work like that. The company they work for will either
A.)raise their prices, if they can, which then what would be the point of making more money if your just paying out more money?
Or B.) That company will fold, then what will all those workers do? Can they provide for their families then?
Company folds= less union members
The way I see it the unions are killing themselves off, I just dont want to see GM dragged down with them. Edited September 15, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[CARBIZ]

The only way a company can give exorbitant pay raises is either by raising the price of their product (can't), increasing sales without increasing costs (virtually impossible) or by increased PRODUCTIVITY. Where is the increased productivity? By the very nature of their needing to increase the number of members to boost their own salaries and usefullness, unions are at odds with increased productivity, except where it is expedient for PR purposes to appear to be for increased productivity. And unions will fight tooth and nail about hiring new people at a lower rate because it creates a precedent. Oh, they can package it as "educating" the students on the benefits of organized labor, but the fact is they don't want the city to put its foot in the door of lower wages. It is sad to be on the outside of this argument and watching the Big Two implode because of legacy costs. We can all argue about whether Roger Smith started this mess and all the gold plated health insurance and pension plans that previous boards agreed to, but the fact is that the Titanic is going down and all the unions want to agree to is where the deck chairs are going to be put and who is going to carry the damned things!

[razoredge]

Anybdy wonder what kind of effect the steel industry/China is going to have for N.American based industrys ? Last I knew steel tripled since the first oil inflation 2 years ago or so, maybe three, cant remember. I suppose that was Union labor faults somehow ? Wonder why Im approached on being one sided or dancing around the "real" issues when not once has anyone proposed what should be done about the entire healthcare system that is chokeing our country to death? Whats up with that ? Not sure all that finger pointing is "we" supporters of organized labor. I think many are following the distraction.

[honest trev]

Anybdy wonder what kind of effect the steel industry/China is going to have for N.American based industrys ?

Last I knew steel tripled since the first oil inflation 2 years ago or so, maybe three, cant remember.

I suppose that was Union labor faults somehow ?

Wonder why Im approached on being one sided or dancing around the "real" issues when not once has anyone proposed what should be done about the entire healthcare system that is chokeing our country to death? Whats up with that ?

Not sure all that finger pointing is "we" supporters of organized labor. I think many are following the distraction.

[post="14612"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Razoredge,
What do you think they are making with all that steel? ricebowls? china is probably the biggest reason why this topic is as important as it is. their labour costs are a fraction of ours and their capacity no where close to being full. they are the biggest boogeyman that organized labour is facing, whether you realize it or not.
the unions must become relevant to today's marketplace. they must find a way to work with the manufacterers to "level the field" as others have put it. this whole discussion is about the union vs company because that is something that can be changed. people make up the union and the company and people can turn this death spiral around.
the price of steel will be whatever it is. everyone has to deal with it.

[IbuyGM]

RAZORSTUBLE, Its funny how you are the only one that is saying I am a fool. Please, if it is such garbage and easier for you to see, please tell me. I dont see it. However, I do see you skirting a lot of issues I brought up. So please mister education organize labor member. Please tell me what is so wrong with what I said, especially since I have been asking for that for the past three days. The public perception of a typical union member is you, Razoredge. I see few supporters for your point of view and many supporters for ours. I also, see as I read, that you skirt any issue brought up that is detrimental to your arguments. You also ramble on about the same things over and over. Why dont you answer the question about all the lawyers, doctors, insurance agents, and such that go into offices everyday? What about how fortunate you are too have a job? Come on Razoredge, answer our questions. Quit skirting the issues and telling us all that we speak garbage. As for the entire healthcare issue, I think that socialized medicine, not the canadian way, but the right way, taking lessons from everyone who has done it, might be a better idea. First, everyone should have to take cuts. White colored workers had to and so should blue.

[razoredge]

OK fool I see you couldnt figure it out so I guess Ill have to esplain this. Go back to page 3, the page where you began your rampage because you dont like my views. The page where you began your small questions that have nothing to do with fair standards of living in my country. The page where you began to make accusations about my hideing or avoiding what I guess you assume was a scarry assult. on that page, once again PAGE III or (3) or THREE you will find that I responded within only a few posts of your scarry accusations.

GET ON THE RIGHT PAGE !

K Fool ?

[IbuyGM]

Allright Razoredge, I see page 3 now. I looked over that page many of times. Honest mistake to miss it. Thanks for responding. The Jungle is a book about the working conditions of the meat packing industry in the early 20th century. Its quite provocative. You should read it, will really put your job into perspective. And once again, why do you resort to name calling. I thought we were all civilized adults on this website. Oh well. I can admit i am wrong for missing that post.

[razoredge]

Civilized adults ? "Where is Razeredge now " " Dodgeing the questions" "Shut Up ! " "Razorstuble" Ok, at least now I understand the rules of your game.

[razoredge]

The meat industry never interested me, I dont hunt, dont butcher, like animals, 4 legged ones anyhow. If I couldnt buy meat I would most likely be an algonquin. I have heard all about the discusting things surrounding it however. I have listened to some older experienced Teamsters talk about hauling the swinging meat, the waste, and stuff involved in the leather industry. All very discusting. They did work I would have never, never, never done.

[sciguy_0504]

I will never support socialized medicine for the masses. Medicaid (for poor people) and Medicare (for old people) are just it for me. I'd rather continue to spend money on my own health insurance knowing that I am supporting myself and only myself (family included). I recently had a surgery and I was able to log-in to my health insurance carrier's website to see how much it cost: $13,000. That one surgery was much more than my family's health insurance premiums. Cutting down on these idiotic malpractice awards (if it REALLY was the doctor's fault) would help tremendously. Congress is a bunch of lawyers so that won't happen anytime soon.

[razoredge]

Cutting down on these idiotic malpractice awards (if it REALLY was the doctor's fault) would help tremendously.  Congress is a bunch of lawyers so that won't happen anytime soon.

[post="14875"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

See, you identified one small fraction of the root of the problem :)

Health insurance is a form of socialized healthcare, those that dont get sick help pay for those that have health problems. When everyone starts going to the doctor left and right and the Doctors start perscribing medicine left and right, raiseing their rates left and right, next thing you know insurance rates are going up because there are more using inflated health care than funds contributed.

this is same scenario for why all the retirement funds are in trouble in the US

[Cremazie]

I figure it is better to pase it here than start another Union thread.
More bad news:http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/st...BN/ctv-business Edited September 16, 2005 by Cremazie

[sciguy_0504]

I'm providing for my own retirement. In my short 18 years I've learned not to rely on government or business to support me and I'm all the better for it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'm providing for my own retirement.  In my short 18 years I've learned not to rely on government or business to support me and I'm all the better for it.

[post="15243"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That sounds like a good idea to me

[Cremazie]

I'm providing for my own retirement.  In my short 18 years I've learned not to rely on government or business to support me and I'm all the better for it.

[post="15243"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, considering all the baby boomers out there there will be no pension plans left by the time we retire, We have to rely on our own resources!

[razoredge]

I'm providing for my own retirement.  In my short 18 years I've learned not to rely on government or business to support me and I'm all the better for it.

[post="15243"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I dont understand what brings you to think "government or business to support me"

Retirement funds were part of a pay scale. So much money went into a retirement fund rather than the paycheck. It was not a free handout. People had a few thousand dollars a year going into a pension fund. Where the free handout came was at a point where investors of these huge combined sums of money might have made good playing little games or destroyed their value by improper call on investments.

Cripes you guys are making it sound like welfare for the workforce. THere was many generations of workers money invested into these retirement funds. Dont twist it into something it is not. That money belongs to the appropriate workers that contributed according to how many years and how much per year.

Then Im really not sure where you come up with the "government" "rely", unless you are talking about SSI. Which once again is something all workers have contributed to by law since its inception. Problem is our governments misappropriation of these moneys. Like free aid to immigrants or excessive amounts paid because workers high enough up in the system could stack their income sky high in the last 3 years to get benefits far excedding their contributions.

Geeze, whats it like to go through life believing all the older generations have been riding the gravy train ? Myself and many others I know have been working summers since I was 11 and every day since I was 18.3.

There are jobs out there that do not allow for "putting away" 401 K were created when the idea came to light that so many would be changing jobs X amount of times in their life, therefore going with them, providing being vested if they should have to start over again. If you not vested and change jobs the money does become a handout to someone's other than the contributor.I dare anyone to come up with the figure of pension and 401K money that became fair game because someone left a job before the 5 or 7 years.

Geeze !!!!!!!!! :unsure:

[CARBIZ]

Well, speaking as a Canadian, I remember reading an article (wish I could remember where, probably at StatsCan report in the Toronto Star) that said anybody who retired before that period (which would've been about 10 years ago, I think) would collect $1.30 for every dollar they put into Canada Pension. The next level was for people retiring in the next few years (from then) who would break even. After that, I believe the period was about 2012 or something like that, anybody retiring would only collect .83 for every dollar they put in. Many people who are on retirement for the past decade or so did not pay into the various pensions what the workforce are expected to put in today. And many pensions got wiped out by the dot com bust a few years ago, something which nobody saw coming. (Although any idiot that bought Nortel stock when it shot through the sky should have been shot!) Again, the Big Three agreed to these huge pensions when their market share was stable and when the three of them were competing against each other. Now they are dealing with 5 Japanese competitors - all 5 of whom are completely insulated from interference on their own home turf, I might add.

[sciguy_0504]

Razor, I plan on providing for myself when I retire. I know previous generations before me could not do that because of the depression, world wars, etc. The difference is that I can and I am. I get a paycheck, some of it goes into a savings account and some of it goes into a Roth IRA and the rest that is left is used to pay bills, purchase things I want, etc. If I could opt out of social security and never receive it, I would. I don't plan on it being there when I'm of age and if it is I'll use it to supplement the money I've saved and invested throughout my lifetime. If I receive a pension, severance, 401K, etc., great. I don't plan on it, however. The world of business is changing. American companies are not tops in every industry anymore and they never will be again. That's the way the world is working and no one can do anything to stop it. Though it may have looked like it through the 1900's, the U.S. could not stay the world's most advanced, forward thinking, rich, most industrialized nation.

[razoredge]

No, not when the corporations made rich in Ameria or N America by N Americans spent their profits to develope third world countries for the purpose of exploiting their populations. I understand your view on your retirement but my point was to get some to stop thinking like those collecting pensions or SSi are on welfare. It was the bill of goods they were all sold durring their carreers. It was a system that was at one time working well and would still be had our corporate and political leaders not sold our future to other countries. Carbiz I dont know much about what you are referring too. What pensions are required today that werent in the past ? I believe pension payouts get adjusted at periods of high or low value and currently after everything that has gone astray since .com and Sept 11th and whatever other thingns seem to control "wallstreet" has lowered returns on pension investments - that combined with - decades of outsourceing and layoffs has lowered the numbers of new employees contributing to funds while number of retirees is on the rise from the glory years of employment and retirement funds. Not the there was anything wrong with "the bill of goods" but systems like this only work while in continuance but when they are cut off - say like a damn, the river dries up below. Imagine if you can, the world of N Americans if these Union Haters got their way and all these Union jobs were destroyed and the pension funds would dry up in a matter of a few years and then there would be millions without anything, even though they contributed their whole lives. Wont happen completely but thats what I see when some of these people post their hatred at the working class that has been in this system for decades. Once again please let me remind everyone Im not one of these workers and have nothing to gain or lose either way, however I am compassionate and understanding of the "bill of goods" we were all sold and the systems that were inplace and part of the pride of the American way of life. I myself dont believe these changes brought by "new" ideas were at all in the best interest of our country or yours. Takes all kinds to make the world go round

[sciguy_0504]

Those pensions will dry up if unions can't give companies some breathing room. When a company declares bankruptcy you better say 'goodbye' to those pensions.

[razoredge]

Those pensions will dry up if unions can't give companies some breathing room.  When a company declares bankruptcy you better say 'goodbye' to those pensions.

[post="15452"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep, If American workers would work for minimum wage, forget about retirement plans, forget about health insurance, dump the decent house, move on down to crackville, take the bus to work, then we might be able to save N.American industries ? Probably not because they would still be paid over 5 dollars an hour more than Chinese, Indian, Turk and Korean workers.

Sorry you dont get the point and cant see past the end of your nose. The root of the problem is what needs to be adressed not the final outcome.

[thegriffon]

The problems with unions in western nations today is that they are focussed on an industry environment consisting of near universal union labor in a traditional manufacturing sector with insignificant foreign competition, when this has not been the case for years and never will be again. This is exacerbated by the existence of "union shops", where union management never has to deal with a company that has a large proportion of workers who are not in the union. Instead of adapting labor agreements to the market reality, the union movement is instead focussed on the pipedream of "global equality" in labor agreements. It's time the unions used their remaining influence to create real solutions to the pensions and healthcare crises facing American industry, solutions that will create jobs, instead of just fighting to retain as much of the old regime as possible as their membership dwindles.

The problems faced by GM and the UAW are more extreme extensions of those facing the US economy as a whole. While the US healthcare and social security systems are faced with a growing, aging population that is being supported by a dwindling tax-paying population, the auto industry has an even larger employee/beneficary ratio as people move into other industries that do not pay into the GM pension and healthcare funds, while consumers buy an increasing number of vehicles from companies that do not face the resulting cost burden.


What to do then? The solution for social security is usually "individual" retirement accounts - where everyone compulsorily contributes to their own retirement fund, instead of the current retired population. For US social security such a compulsory system is probably inevitable, but also far too late. Y'all will just have to pay and pay until you and your neighbors parents and grandparents all die. Blame those who thought that one or two kids would be enough (some people of course don't or can't have any, and the balance needs to be made up).

For GM and other companies and industries in the US, the usual solution is to off-load pension obligations to the US government during bankruptcy. The increasing number of cimpanies doing so however has led to a pending shortfall in the guarantee fund. A better solution would be to compulsorily (there's that word again) combine company and industry funds into several that cover the entire population, not just those working at one company or industry whose future employment levels and economic contribution may be far different than they are today. As employment shifts from GM to Toyota, and from manufacturing to service industries, the burden of "guaranteed" pensions and healthcare will shift as well. Although not financially necessary in such a system, a universal sales tax on both imported and domestic products (physical or intellectual) could be used to support personal contributions to IRAs and health insurance, appeasing those concerned about imports and foreign outsourcing.

It's time for the unions to show some visionary leadership, and use their remaining influence to force state and federal governments to push this through. If neccessary get members from every union (transport, hospitality, manufacturing and service) to camp outside the house and senate until it's done. Flood newspapers with letters, placard every morning show and flood talk radio with calls. If they have the chutzpah, they can do it, and give US industries, and the members, the biggest boost since WWII. Edited October 3, 2005 by thegriffon

[thegriffon]

Yep, If American workers would work for minimum wage, forget about retirement plans, forget about health insurance, dump the decent house, move on down to crackville, take the bus to work, then we might be able to save N.American industries ? Probably not because they would still be paid over 5 dollars an hour more than Chinese, Indian, Turk and Korean workers.

Sorry you dont get the point and cant see past the end of your nose. The root of the problem is what needs to be adressed not the final outcome.

[post="15480"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Korean workers are already paid very well. Not as well as a UAW worker on overtime, but $50K for a laborer is not to be sneezed at. If labor costs were so important, would Hyundai be building Sonatas in the US? Would Nanjing continue building MGs in Britain? Chinese manufacturers may undercut American, but they do it by losing enormous amounts of money. Some will one day break even, but most will collapse. Such long-term thinking can pay off big-time, but it can also lead to spectacular collapses (as it did in Korea).

[razoredge]

The only way to aviod this is to stop the outsourceing and the curb importation as well as "in country manufacturer of foreign" This will get contributions back into the funds and jobs back into the country. We can not be a consumer only nation. We need national product. talking IRA's or 401 when thats the system ones retirement has always been in is easy. For someone that has years contributed into pension that is being told "to bad" pennys on the dollar is bull shit. Its only fine if your only effected from the arm chair. These people dont want the government to support their retirements. Thats why most all Union contract issues have evolved around job security and investment in N. American facilities. They know this is how to have continuance of a system that was fine and working fine until thousands of CEO's and wallstreet criminals decided there would be nothing wrong with selling our assets. SSI needs to stop giving money to Immigrants. SSI needs to stop giving money to wealthy retirees that have great assets, portfolio, and retirement plans. SSI should have a income bracket ceiling cutoff. These golden folks should have no problem living without SSI checks and feel good about helping out a bad situation for a country whos economic system has been so good to them. It would come back around to where it needs to be quik. There are many who worked non union and low wage jobs that have nothing but SSI and they were an equal contributing part of what made America go round. "times have changed" "IRA's" "401K's"All these ideas sound great if you just ignore the few generations that are caught in the middle of this gready bullshit. Blaming current old folks for being retired and collecting is BS, acting like you are supporting them is BS. They contributed this money and this money was invested and had returns, however manipulation of the system, economy and other devious doings have removed investment returns. Younger people are crying like that about SSI and retirement funds because they have been told the money will be gone. But we were told the same thing 20 years ago or more. We just accepted the system and figured it would come ack around, but who would have predicted the shameless greed at the top that was the 80's,90's & 00's. Its amazing whats legal in this country and what isnt !

[lakefire]

The only way to aviod this is to stop the outsourceing and the curb importation as well as "in country manufacturer of foreign" This will get contributions back into the funds and jobs back into the country. We can not be a consumer only nation. We need national product.

Ya, let's jack up the price of a Cavalier from $14000 to $28000 by producing everything here in America. That's a good idea because that's what would happen if nothing was outsourced.

[razoredge]

Let me get this straight, the Cavalier is gonna cost more than the LaCrosse, GP

[sciguy_0504]

Yep, If American workers would work for minimum wage, forget about retirement plans, forget about health insurance, dump the decent house, move on down to crackville, take the bus to work, then we might be able to save N.American industries ? Probably not because they would still be paid over 5 dollars an hour more than Chinese, Indian, Turk and Korean workers.

Sorry you dont get the point and cant see past the end of your nose. The root of the problem is what needs to be adressed not the final outcome.

[post="15480"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Razor, unions asking for the everything and then some are part of the problem, too. Surely it may not be the root of the problem but it's a problem. I said nothing about Americans working for minimum wage or forgetting about retirement. Expecting $70,000+ (including pay and benefits) on a high school education is rediculous. Many college graduates don't even see that and if they do, it's later on in life.

You can knock down all the trade barriers and excuse GM for making mostly substandard cars for the last few decades but let's face it: it costs less to live in China and manufacture goods in China because of the quality of life, rules and regulations, cost of goods, etc. Of course a company is going to go over there when there is a huge difference in costs.

[razoredge]

wow, now were up to 70,000. Who said GM has made substandard product for the last 2 decades ? Oh the magazines ? Until everybody is ready to take care of the main problems at hand its very stupid to go to the bottom and start pointing the finger. Wheres the "corporate America sucks" thread ? Wheres the "greedy minipulating wallstreet" thread ? Wheres the "filthy stinking rich Doctors and Health insurance officers" thread ? Wheres the "our governments sucks" thread ? When part of Americas population is flying high, living large, like theres no tomorrow, no limits, dont start a bunch of crap over another part of Americas population that getting a job done. I like looking at the whole picture......dont you ?

[Cremazie]

wow, now were up to 70,000.

Who said GM has made substandard product for the last 2 decades ? Oh the magazines ?

Until everybody is ready to take care of the main problems at hand its very stupid to go to the bottom and start pointing the finger.

Wheres the "corporate America sucks" thread ?
Wheres the "greedy minipulating wallstreet" thread ?
Wheres the "filthy stinking rich Doctors and Health insurance officers" thread ?
Wheres the "our governments sucks" thread ?

When part of Americas population is flying high, living large, like theres no tomorrow, no limits, dont start a bunch of crap over another part of Americas population that getting a job done.

I like looking at the whole picture......dont you ?

[post="23480"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good job!

[Cremazie]

Expecting $70,000+ (including pay and benefits) on a high school education is rediculous.  Many college graduates don't even see that and if they do, it's later on in life.

[post="23458"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Two things to live by:
Always put in a hard days work
Always demand good pay in return

People go to college for physically easier jobs, not only the money. If you are jelous of the pay, go apply for a physically demmanding job, you'll be rewarded for your blood and sweat! Edited October 3, 2005 by Cremazie

[sciguy_0504]

Obviously the points are lost on some of you. People may go to college for physically easier jobs but the jobs they want and end up obtaining are probably more mentally and emotionally demanding. Surely being a doctor is a hell of a lot more stressful than building cars or putting in plumbing. Doctors also work their asses off both in and out of school, hence why they're paid by the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Razor, there are currently no threads like that for each of the following reasons: 1) Corporate America: without it you wouldn't have a job and if you were lucky enough to have one it would probably be out in the fields working for less money with no benefits. 2) Wall Street: without it you wouldn't have the analysts, consultants and business people who understand the economy and make capitalism work. 3) Rich doctors: without them you'd be dead. 4) Government: without it a little something called anarchy would prevail (and some of you are moaning about the lack of help the government is giving you). Go take a look at the countries that don't have one or more of the above and see if you like what you see. I guarantee you won't.

[lakefire]

Let me get this straight, the Cavalier is gonna cost more than the LaCrosse, GP

[post="23407"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, what I am saying is that having everything handled in house is going to significantly drive up the costs of the automobiles. So a cavilier that use to cost 14000 might just cost 28000 and a Lacrosse that costs 28000 might just cost 48000. Then GM would go out of business because they can't sell cars for that must money.

And to emphasize what Sciguy said. I could operate a fork lift at GM and make $100k (or whatever the hell they are paying the union guys now) but I would absolutely hate that job. It offers absolutely no mental challenge at all. It is a job that I could perfect in probably a year or less.

People that go to college and graduate should be rewarded for their investment in their higher education. I'm not saying that all college grads should make more than all blue collar jobs. But what I am saying is that on average they should and they do, so I have nothing to complain about.

The nice thing about my job and my posistion is that if I want more money, I just work harder and it comes to me.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Obviously the points are lost on some of you.

People may go to college for physically easier jobs but the jobs they want and end up obtaining are probably more mentally and emotionally demanding.  Surely being a doctor is a hell of a lot more stressful than building cars or putting in plumbing.  Doctors also work their asses off both in and out of school, hence why they're paid by the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Razor, there are currently no threads like that for each of the following reasons:

1) Corporate America:  without it you wouldn't have a job and if you were lucky enough to have one it would probably be out in the fields working for less money with no benefits.

2) Wall Street:  without it you wouldn't have the analysts, consultants and business people who understand the economy and make capitalism work.

3) Rich doctors:  without them you'd be dead.

4) Government:  without it a little something called anarchy would prevail (and some of you are moaning about the lack of help the government is giving you).

Go take a look at the countries that don't have one or more of the above and see if you like what you see.  I guarantee you won't.

[post="23817"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Doesnt it seem like a waste of time arguing your point? Some people just want to bring all the factory jobs back, and I guess send the higher skilled jobs overseas. They want a lower skilled country it seems.

[sciguy_0504]

Never thought of it like that, Caddy.

[razoredge]

XLR and "Sciguy" your both still a little wet behind the ears. Take this for example " Never thought of it like that, Caddy." theres not alternatiove ways of looking at things. They are what they are and should be seen not "thought of" for what they are. Now this is interesting "Some people just want to bring all the factory jobs back, and I guess send the higher skilled jobs overseas. They want a lower skilled country it seems. " Oh really? so this is how it "seems" this is how you "think" of it ? Ill try to help you out, I want a self sufficient country, as much as possible. Is there something wrong with that ? I want a country that has jobs for everybody. It must be nice living in the dream world thinking everybody can get through life doing what you find a interesting job. Insisting that everyone should have the same interests of a kind of work. I do not wish for one iota of a job to leave N. America, I want N.America to be strong. Very nice little twist there XLR, " send the higher skilled jobs overseas", I havent seen anyone nor myself post that but Ive seen you and others post against the common brother. " They want a lower skilled country ", what are you talking about, if that wasnt so sick it might be worth laughing at. Once again XLR wants to pull that big word he learned "skill" out of his hat as if to say he knows what is skilled and what is not. Insulting fellow hard working humans as if they are skilless. Pretending all these office workers control some special key that unlocks these "skills". Sciguy, nice little twist telling me about the basics of above mentioned trades, you illustrated a great level of "skill" at a smoke screen(not really, highly unskilled but Im sure you will get better with age). However I believe I was talking about the corruption, irresponsibility, and perversion of the above trades, not the root of their existance. Thanks for reviewing kindergarten for me. I do work in the field, wanna come run through the "skills" with me ? Yes indeed, still just a little wet behind the ears. I like looking at the whole picture..........dont you ?

[Backup7]

There's a reason why doctors and engineers are paid more than factory workers. It's called supply & demand. Many people are willing to go straight into blue collar jobs after high school. Fewer people are willing to put in the work to gain higher level skills. Personally, I would love to see all unions dissolve. The market should determine wages- not union leaders. Let union members fend for themselves just like everyone else. And razor- your comments about the uselessness of white collar jobs make you look INCREDIBLY ignorant. Additionally (unless you are ~70 years old), stop referring to everyone who disagrees with you as a "youngling"/other synonyms. By doing so, you imply that you believe your wisdom to exceed ours- which it does not. Edited October 5, 2005 by Backup7

[razoredge]

So where is this uselessness statement ? Perhaps I question their true value but it so appears blue collar value is too ? Hmm ? Thanks for telling me why Doctors are paid more. I wasnt looking for Doctors wages, anywhere, never, I do question the recent greed and how the government and many individuals chose to ignore that while attacking fellow workers that get up everyday and go to work, while its clearly obvious the health care industry is causeing way too much trouble in this country and getting filthy stinking rich while doing so. Its interesting to see all the defence for the wealthy while urging for the poverty of others. Very very interesting. I need to go look up that word.............ignorance? is it ?

[razoredge]

I am not wise, back when I was young I did however know everything their was to know about everything. I too was once wet behind the ears. I have since lost all that wisdom and wished to share some of the ignorantly obvious discoverys that have come banging on the door.

[Backup7]

It's obvious that razor can read, but I have serious doubts as to whether he is able to comprehend any of it. :blink: His posts always go off on unrelated tangents.

[lakefire]

razor, I do not understand why you want a self-sufficient america. The fact of the matter is if you try to keep everything in America you will actually increase the unemployment rate not decrease it. You must look beyond the first layer of the goal and into the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. For example, when Reagan lowered taxes the first layer of thought would tell you that the government would not have as much money to work with. And although the deficite (sp?) grew in his tenure the GDP grew 10 times as much as the deficite (sp?) did. If you bring all jobs to America the first layer of thought is that these people can get your jobs back. But the cause and effect of this is that it will raise the prices of the products and demand for the goods will decrease. Because businesses won't be as profitable because the goods aren't selling as well the business will need to cut costs (IE fire people), and in the long run you have a higher unemployment. The beautiful thing about capitalism is that there are other options. As long as there is demand for something, there will be a need to supply it. IE if something happens with Chinese labor (rates going up) we would move to India. And to sum it up, the wealthy people don't make other people poor. They have no ability to do that. People have choices that they can make throughout their life which rely on their shoulders. If you don't want to make $7/hour, then work for a degree and find a higher paying job. There are several programs out there to help financially burdened familys and students to get the education they need to succeed. The only excuses why not to succeed are if you are not mentally capable of doing it (ie, mentally retarded) or addicted to drugs / other "bad" habits. Even then it doesn't exclude you from succeeding.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If GM is forced to move slowly, and not be able to increase, decrease production according to demand, and have extra costs per vehicle made, while foreign competition has none of that, how is that helping our country to be more self sufficient? All I see is that it is helping the competition by making them react quicker, and more efficiently than our American companies. The unions would be better off fighting public perception, than fighting the companies that pay them. Striking, threatening to strike, demanding higher pay, demanding better benefits, and demanding GM keep plants open that are not needed is only hurting our American companies compete, especially at a time with increasing competion who make many many times more money than them, is only killing our industry. It is suicide for the unions, and for GM. GM needs to make more money to put back into their products, to make better products so people will start coming back to GM. Without more money for products, GMs sales will keep falling and falling, and guess what side effect that has. Less cars to be made, less workers to build them. I'm sorry for seeing how that will help us be self sufficient. All I see is it driving more and more jobs to lower wage countries, because our companies cant make the money needed to compete with the foreign competition. The general population doesnt care about helping the union worker by paying $1500 per car to support GMs health care bills. If they did, the Asian companies share wouldnt be increasing month after month. Add in the fact that GM is still paying for 30 years of mistakes, and the media reluctant to give GM another chance, and it seems like GM is backed into a corner, with its hands tied behind its back. There are bigger things the union should be worried about instead of demanding more and more from GM. Like maybe trying to sway public perception, or trying to change media perception. I believe that would do more to help their cause than to suck away any profits GM makes.

[razoredge]

It's obvious that razor can read, but I have serious doubts as to whether he is able to comprehend any of it.  :blink:

His posts always go off on unrelated tangents.

[post="23973"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

unrelated tangents ? comprehension ? More word to look up :blink:

Was that like when the pitcher throws the ball directly at the batter ?

Well Lakefire, Im not into the all consuming American thing, the disposable socioty so I see much of your ideas on "fueling the economy" as the enemy. Id rather buy my nails in a weighed brown paper bag than an air tight bullet proof plastic container thats worth more than the 4oz. of product. I like evenflow not rapid growth and inflation. We could go off into how all these cheap products today are great for the economy because of the implanted failure = job security. We could get into how massive land developement due to massive population explosions is good for the economy, forget environment and all that comes with population. Then its a real nightmare to think about what happens to all those employed if the current rate of expansion were curbed ? I could think of many similar scenarios but to sum it up sooner or later all things come to a head.

Anyhow, how is it you figure more jobs within the country or continent I should say for all our Canadian friends would make more unemployment ? In India and China ?

How is it you figure the wealthy dont control the money and its distribution ?

Jobs, oppertunity, education, skills ? What makes anybody think everyone wants to sit at desk, work inside, shuffle paper, or what ever else goes on ? Have you ever seen a new comer to a job or business or "skill" where you can look at them and see that "this is clearly not for them" ? It has nothing to do with skills, capability, smarts, or education many types of work just turn people off but spark others. Why is this a problem for so many ?

All my post have been made to address this problem and say everyone needs to make a good living doing what they enjoy or are interested in. Without pointing the finger and "saying you are the problem" when clearly there are many many problems. Its simply amazing the negitive attitude about this.

[CaddyXLR-V]

What makes anybody think everyone wants to sit at desk, work inside, shuffle paper, or what ever else goes on ?

I have a new word for you. Go look up the definition of ignorance.

[razoredge]

XLR you chose to continously ignore what has really gone on. Money for product ? Well Caddy just got quite a jab. I guess Fiat did too [clears throat] those damn union workers ! Strikes ? It was just shown here that the recent strike threat had to do with continuing product manufacture on this continent as well as developement. Also that the 96 strike was also about the same. So this is a bad thing, I would think that old team spirit would kick in and say thats rightous ? You want to complain and bring up cheap Chinese or India labor as if to say thats what you want workers in N America to regress to ? Gawd ! Yet you support the health care industrys wealth ? Then complain about this 1500 per vehical in the same breath ? Then as if to suggest the 1500 should just go away and ....Im not sure have Americans without health insurance ? The best one is going after the pensions like the money wasnt contributed by the workers and invested on their behalf, and somehow its their fault the money evaporated ?

[razoredge]

I have a new word for you. Go look up the definition of ignorance.

[post="24028"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You gotta point ? Spit it out. What is it you didnt get about the whole paragraph I wrote ? Or was that just another "throw that ball directly at the batter". Are you mad at me because I dont know everything important that goes on inside ? Many have been saying that nothing that goes on outside is important. So whos ignorant ? Just one right ? Only one can be ignorant.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You gotta point ? Spit it out. What is it you didnt get about the whole paragraph I wrote ? Or was that just another "throw that ball directly at the batter". Are you mad at me because I dont know everything important that goes on inside ? Many have been saying that nothing that goes on outside is important. So whos ignorant ? Just one right ? Only one can be ignorant.

[post="24038"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I did not say what goes on outside was not important. I just feel they are acting like they are more important than they are. Just because they do physical labor doesnt mean they are more important than everybody else, they should get paid what the market allows, not what they demand they get paid. My dad has done physical labor his whole life. Now he is trying to get his GED and go to college, which he wishes he had done 25 years ago. Edited October 5, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[razoredge]

I did not say what goes on outside was not important. I just feel they are acting like they are more important than they are. Just because they do physical labor doesnt mean they are more important than everybody else, they should get paid what the market allows, not what they demand they get paid. My dad has done physical labor his whole life. Now he is trying to get his GED and go to college, which he wishes he had done 25 years ago.

[post="24041"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good, Im glad he now can, why not when you were in highschool ? Just think what he has to look forward too. He'll be out fighting for jobs with cocky kids that think he is the burdon on their SSI. I wish him the best, sincerely !

You said I was ignorant by quoteing half of a paragraph indicating my uncertainty of skills and job discriptions of inside work , correct ? :unsure:

We can not have N Americans working for what 3rd world markets allow ! Period ! I dont care what area of work they perform.

What the hell is the problem with this ?

In fact I have a good example, today, I was robbed 1 dollar for a call from pay phone to a cell phone. Requested I add one dollar, rang 3 times and got reply "we are unable to complete call as dialed". Took my money and that was that. I called the number to get return, I got .....who knows, India, we can not return your money, dial 611, got someone in ...who knows, poor english, no we can not return your money dial 211, got someone... who knows, they all sounded faint and foreign, no we can not return your money call the number on the phone for refund.......I explained what I had been doing for the last 10 minutes and was told to try again using area code and 1, got three rings, then "we are unable to complete your call as dialed", click and another 1 dollar gone.

20 years ago, dial 0, get operator, a fine American gal,explain problem, she says OK, phone goes k-ching, k-ching and there lays your money as well as polite American speaking woman that puts the call through for you.

Why in the hell do they need to save money on American labor when they have such a scam going in the first place ?

Nevermind, unrelated Im sure.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Good, Im glad he now can, why not when you were in highschool ? Just think what he has to look forward too. He'll be out fighting for jobs with cocky kids that think he is the burdon on their SSI. I wish him the best, sincerely !

You said I was ignorant by quoteing half of a paragraph indicating my uncertainty of skills and job discriptions of inside work , correct ?  :unsure:

We can not have N Americans working for what 3rd world markets allow ! Period ! I dont care what area of work they perform.

What the hell is the problem with this ?

In fact I have a good example, today, I was robbed 1 dollar for a call from pay phone to a cell phone. Requested I add one dollar, rang 3 times and got reply "we are unable to complete call as dialed". Took my money and that was that. I called the number to get return, I got .....who knows, India, we can not return your money, dial 611, got someone in ...who knows, poor english, no we can not return your money dial 211, got someone... who knows, they all sounded faint and foreign, no we can not return your money call the number on the phone for refund.......I explained what I had been doing for the last 10 minutes and was told to try again using area code and 1, got three rings, then "we are unable to complete your call as dialed", click and another 1 dollar gone.

20 years ago, dial 0, get operator, a fine American gal,explain problem, she says OK, phone goes k-ching, k-ching and there lays your money as well as polite American speaking woman that puts the call through for you.

Why in the hell do they need to save money on American labor when they have such a scam going in the first place ?

Nevermind, unrelated Im sure.

[post="24058"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I just thought that one comment was ignorant. They dont just sit there shuffling paper like you suggested. And I would like to see jobs stay here, I dont want them to go to other countries. But I think the unions arent helping the situation. If our companies dont make money, how can they keep jobs here? I would like see our companies be able to compete with the best in the world. I am not proposing to send jobs overseas, but if thats what it takes to keep our companies alive, at least we can keep some of the workers here, instead of losing them all.

[lakefire]

No reason to call people names in here because you don't agree with their point of views. Although I may not agree with you, I will defend the right for you to say it to the death. (Or something close to that in regards to a famous quote). In regards to a payphone I can't help you out, because I haven't used one in about 15 years. No way I can argue any other direction. There are many jobs out there that are very labor intensive that are also considered "white collar." For instance any entrepenuer starting their own business would need to work the "dirty" jobs while his business starts up. For instance if he started a restaurant sure enough he'd be making the food. Or if he started a lanscaping business, sure enough he'd be mowing lawns, etc. Again, there are more to white collar jobs than shuffling papers, sitting at desks, and and being at one cubicle all day. I would love to tell you about my job if you are interested. What I don't think that the Unions (outsource haters) understand is that when companies outsource things (and they work successfully) then the country is better off. You have to remember that anything and everything is outsourced. Do you think GM makes those tires, or the rims, or the exhaust system, or the gears? All of that is outsourced to both companies located inside and outside the United States. I have more points, but I have to head off to work.

[rkmdogs]

50 grand is only about 30 or 35 through the door. Its an expensive world now.

Insurance is the reason, now oil and the effects of that will be colossal. Here in the NE it could cost 4-5 grand just to heat a house. Wait till the schools pay the heat bill, fuel for buses

And ya'll want to say its OK to lower a mans income while its clear others are raising theirs at our cost.

[post="4626"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hey pottymouth!
What about those of us that are no longer employed, and have to live on a fixed income, a lot less than your "poor 30 or35" thru the door.
We paid our dues many years ago and a lot of promises were made that are now not being kept!
I don't have any kids in school anymore, why should I have to subsidize your
school costs, by paying a higher price for something that you may contribute some
of your labor to make?
At todays' market prices, I can't afford to buy your products anymore!
Who am I supposed to cry to?
AND I paid my dues for 38 years!!!!!!!