Union labor under attack

[Variance]

Link: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-289731.htm

Union labor under attack

Givebacks threaten workers' good life

By Ron French, Louis Aguilar and Brett Clanton / The Detroit News


As a daughter of public school teachers in Brooklyn, Megan Roth once spent a month making signs, picketing and shouting slogans demanding better pay for her parents and their co-workers. "It was a blast," recalls the 43-year-old Southfield resident.

So when a striking Northwest mechanic handed her a pamphlet asking her to boycott Northwest Airlines, she read it intently. Then the financial adviser proceeded to check into her Northwest flight to Atlanta.

"I feel for them," Roth said. "But who is right or wrong? I honestly don't know how to answer that."

It's tough times for organized labor.

Membership is at its lowest in a century. Locally, teachers and auto workers are being pressured to take pay and benefit cuts. Mechanics for Northwest went on strike Saturday and watched helplessly as replacement workers took their place and members of other airline unions crossed picket lines.

Detroit, the cradle of the labor movement, is ground zero in a battle for the soul -- and survival -- of organized labor. Unions are losing pay, losing members, and even losing the sympathy of supporters like Roth to the corporations that employ them.

The cracks in the House of Labor are spreading well beyond the picket lines and union halls. Last month, 4.6 million workers from the Teamsters, the United Food and Commercial Workers, and the Service Employees International Union split from the AFL-CIO, the biggest rift organized labor has seen in 70 years.

If the power and popularity of unions continues to decline, "it will make an enormous difference to the average American," warned labor expert Harley Shaiken, professor at the University of California at Berkeley. "An erosion of unions today is an erosion of wages and benefits tomorrow."

Union leaders have not been able to organize workers fast enough to stem the losses. Labor groups have repeatedly failed to sign up workers at Wal-Mart stores or the foreign-owned auto assembly plants popping up throughout the South.

The threat of a strike no longer strikes fear in CEOs the way it once did.

A work slowdown by mechanics of Northwest in 1999 brought Metro Airport and the airline to a halt. Strikes in the 1980s and 1990s paralyzed airlines like Pan American World Airways.But when mechanics went on strike Saturday, Northwest shuttled in replacement mechanics and kept most of its planes in the air. Northwest wants to cut the number of mechanics in half and give remaining workers a 25 percent pay cut.

Members of other unions as well as passengers crossed the picket line, some for the first time.

Michael Raymore is a 28-year-old Detroiter who has grown up in a period of declining union clout.

"The idea of job security is too foreign for me to understand," said Raymore, a corporate trainer flying to Louisville on Monday. "I'm already on my second career, and I graduated from Western (Michigan University) four years ago.

"When I hear (strikers) say that their jobs and livelihoods are at stake, I'm like, 'Well, yeah ... whose job isn't always on the line?'"


'We've given enough'


Leaders of the United Auto Workers are meeting in Chicago this week to discuss giving ground on hard-won pay and benefits in order to help General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. survive. The companies are struggling with huge pension and health care obligations for current UAW workers and retirees.

"We've given enough, gee whiz," said Grant Muncy, chairman of UAW Local 211, which represents 2,800 workers at a GM engine plant in Defiance, Ohio. Employment at that plant has been cut in half in five years, and the union agreed to higher co-pays for prescription drugs and doctor visits in the last national contract in 2003.

The atmosphere at the annual conference was more somber than usual. GM and Delphi Corp., the Troy-based auto supplier, are pressuring the union for relief from rising labor costs now -- two years before their contract expires in 2007.

Small groups of men huddled in serious conversation, asking who had heard what and playing out various doomsday scenarios.

"The unions are going to survive," said Gerald Horton, 61, alternate committeeman at a Wentsville, Ohio, plant that makes GM full-size vans. "But they're going to get beat up."

Detroit Public Schools teachers are taking a strike vote today after the school corporation asked them to take a 2.5 percent pay cut and reductions in various benefits.

"I know everybody is taking a cut, but it has got to stop somewhere," said Patsy Bell, 55, of Detroit, who has a granddaughter and three nephews who live with her and go to Detroit's Vernor Elementary. She is worried that school won't start on time but supports the teachers. She doesn't think they should take a pay cut. She says the district's budget problems aren't their fault.

Bell, who is a union member as a housekeeper at Harper University Hospital, said she's saddened that unions seem to be losing their clout. "It's a shame," Bell said. "How many people fought and lost their jobs and were jailed ... for the struggle? We are going to go back five steps instead of going forward."

Fewer Americans have connections to unions than at any time since the beginning of the 20th century. Fifty years ago, 35 percent of American workers were union members. Today, union workers have dropped to 12.5 percent -- 8 percent when only private-sector unions are counted.


Difficult time for unions


Organized labor has faced tough times before. In the 1980s, companies demanded concessions from unions routinely. "But I don't think there has ever been as bad a time as this," said Gary Chaison, professor of industrial management at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.

"In the past, there was always a sense that it was just a bad economic period and things would get better," Chaison said. "Now there is a real sense of gloom about the labor movement, a sense of disarray about what it is to do."

As membership has declined, so has unions' image in the eyes of the public. Labor organizations that once were seen as hero of the common man are often portrayed as greedy special interest groups.

"Consumers don't seem to care (about unions)," Chaison said. "A typical American worker would probably say unions were once effective voices in the workplaces, but in the face of globalization, they don't have a role anymore."

The threat of jobs moving to Mexico or other cheap labor markets has taken the teeth out of labor, Chaison said. "Traditionally, unions made demands and management reacted," he said. "Today, companies can just pick up and move (to a cheaper labor market)."

Northwest mechanics know that Jet Blue, for example, performs maintenance on its airplanes in El Salvador to save money. Northwest already outsources some of its maintenance.

"I think the days of big organizing and labor clout in the way that we usually mean by that phrase are pretty much gone," said Glenn McDonald, the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics and Strategy at Washington University in St. Louis.

"There are a few industries, like construction, where old-fashioned labor clout is still there. But most of the economy just doesn't work like that anymore," McDonald said.


What unions must do


To stay relevant, unions must do a better job of public relations, Shaiken of UC-Berkley said.

"The public has been inundated for decades by an anti-union message," he said.

If unions are to survive in today's competitive global economy, they must be willing to work with management in solving mutual problems, including recognizing that the health care costs are hobbling many employers, said Jules I. Crystal, a Chicago labor attorney.

"The unions have to go beyond the knee-jerk reflex that management is always wrong," said Crystal, a University of Michigan law school graduate who represents management in labor disputes. "They have to take a more flexible, innovative approach."

If unions fail to respond to today's economic pressures, Crystal said, "I think it is possible they will become even more irrelevant to employees and employers than they are today."

Chaison worries that unless organized labor finds new strategies, "they could represent just islands of membership. They'll get smaller and smaller."

Shaiken hopes that doesn't happen. "So much of what American workers enjoy today was pioneered by unions or given by companies trying to avoid unions. Pensions, paid health care, the 40-hour workweek, overtime pay, all were a result of unions in past generations," he said. "Labor is going through tough times, but there can still be solidarity."

Detroit News Staff Writers Richard A. Ryan and Christine MacDonald contributed to this report. You can reach Ron French at (313) 222-2175 or rfrench@ detnews.com.

[regfootball]

thanks for the article.

[bowtie_dude]

I sorta chuckled when I read that when the Northwest mechanics went on strike, people were lined up to work in their place. I have no empathy for organized labor anymore. Its outlived its usefulness and anyone thats a member is about to get a serious reality shock when the whole thing collapses. And I can't say I'll be sorry when it happens.

[BrewSwillis]

It's a race to the bottom folks! We will have to compete with 3rd world country's labor rates, and become a poor nation in the process. Won't the whole world be happy when the US is just as poor as they are? So screw Unions, tariffs, restrictions, actual "fair" trade, etc.......lets see if we can compete globally for the cheapest labor!!

[bowtie_dude]

It's a race to the bottom folks!  We will have to compete with 3rd world country's labor rates, and become a poor nation in the process.  Won't the whole world be happy when the US is just as poor as they are?

So screw Unions, tariffs, restrictions, actual "fair" trade, etc.......lets see if we can compete globally for the cheapest labor!!

[post="4466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:rolleyes: Please...

This has nothing to do with cheap labor, but FAIR labor. No one in this country has the kind of security that organized labor has. Union workers are living in a utopian world where they can have a job that requires little skill, less brains, and no motivation and make 50k+ a year with full paid healthcare and retirement. And its strangling american corporations. Union workers can either come back to the 21st century, or rot in unemployment when they either A) Bankrupt their employer or B) Their employer fires them all. Whichever comes first.

[razoredge]

:rolleyes: Please...

This has nothing to do with cheap labor, but FAIR labor.  No one in this country has the kind of security that organized labor has.  Union workers are living in a utopian world where they can have a job that requires little skill, less brains, and no motivation and make 50k+ a year with full paid healthcare and retirement.  And its strangling american corporations.  Union workers can either come back to the 21st century, or rot in unemployment when they either A) Bankrupt their employer or B) Their employer fires them all.  Whichever comes first.

[post="4468"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Untill you have walked the walk I suggest you dont talk the talk. What was it you said you would be getting paid with this job you have lined up with the real estate scammers ? And just what positive effect is your "trade" or "skill" going to contribute to society ? Insane inflation ? Market manipulation ? Just guessing I really dont know.

I have never in my life know anyone to wish bad on people like I have heard you do. Whos lined up for the jobs in aircraft repair and maintenance ? What skill is it you have that is so great you think mechanics belong in trailer parks or the slums with the crack heads.

They are trying to be part of the 21 century, they are trying to live a decent life in the world with the rest of YOU inflation contributers. Ever think they might have a morgage? ever think they might have children in college? ever think they might have 400 a month going out just in land and school taxes ? ever think they might be a duel working family that has 2 car payments every month ? ever think maybe they just get by in this ever increasing expensive world ? ever think ? do you ?

[PontiacTechNJ]

You know , as an auto technician, I never thought an aircraft mechanic was a low skill job .

[bowtie_dude]

Untill you have walked the walk I suggest you dont talk the talk. What was it you said you would be getting paid with this job you have lined up with the real estate scammers ? And just what positive effect is your "trade" or "skill" going to contribute to society ? Insane inflation ? Market manipulation ? Just guessing I really dont know.

I have never in my life know anyone to wish bad on people like I have heard you do. Whos lined up for the jobs in aircraft repair and maintenance ? What skill is it you have that is so great you think mechanics belong in trailer parks or the slums with the crack heads.

They are trying to be part of the 21 century, they are trying to live a decent life in the world with the rest of YOU inflation contributers. Ever think they might have a morgage? ever think they might have children in college? ever think they might have 400 a month going out just in land and school taxes ? ever think they might be a duel working family that has 2 car payments every month ? ever think maybe they just get by in this ever increasing expensive world ? ever think ? do you ?

[post="4574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, I ended up not getting that job because the real estate market is low this year.

However, I got a job that pays better than that one, anyway, so its all good.

Anyway, anyone that "just gets by" on what UAW members are making must have poor money managing skills.

[razoredge]

50 grand is only about 30 or 35 through the door. Its an expensive world now. Insurance is the reason, now oil and the effects of that will be colossal. Here in the NE it could cost 4-5 grand just to heat a house. Wait till the schools pay the heat bill, fuel for buses And ya'll want to say its OK to lower a mans income while its clear others are raising theirs at our cost.

[The O.C.]

50 grand is only about 30 or 35 through the door. Its an expensive world now.

Insurance is the reason, now oil and the effects of that will be colossal. Here in the NE it could cost 4-5 grand just to heat a house. Wait till the schools pay the heat bill, fuel for buses

And ya'll want to say its OK to lower a mans income while its clear others are raising theirs at our cost.

[post="4626"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A good majority of this nation's white collar workers would consider themselves happy to earn $50K a year with benefits.....and they have kids....and they have mortgages.....and they have car payments....and they have taxes and insurance to pay.....

They do it without unions. And many of them DON'T get overtime....and DO work well more than 4o hours per week.

And you can be guaranteed they DON'T enjoy the health care, vacation, and benefits that most union workers DO.

(Coming from a former Buick Divison white collar worker that worked at Buick City.)

[CaddyXLR-V]

So now 50 grand on high school education isnt enough? They cant manage all their debt with that amout? But we are the ones not thinking? Maybe they werent thinking by not going to get a higher education, and with that, a higher paying job. Job pay isnt determined by how many bills one can rack up, but by skill level required to do the job, and also supply and demand. I'm going to go ask my boss for a raise because I want a new Corvette. Lets see what he thinks of that. And if they are on strike, and people are going in there to work while they are on strike, obviously the demand is there. We are a capitalist economy, and unions go against that. Their pay should be determined by market forces, like all other jobs. If there is less demand(people who want the job) than supply(positions needed to be filled in the company) then pay would go up, and if there is more demand than supply, pay would go down. Right now there is too much demand for the union jobs because they pay so much, but theres not enough jobs available, as evidenced by the layoffs and plant closures. It really just simple economics, and the union thinking goes completely against that. Edited August 27, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[regfootball]

Untill you have walked the walk I suggest you dont talk the talk. What was it you said you would be getting paid with this job you have lined up with the real estate scammers ? And just what positive effect is your "trade" or "skill" going to contribute to society ? Insane inflation ? Market manipulation ? Just guessing I really dont know.

I have never in my life know anyone to wish bad on people like I have heard you do. Whos lined up for the jobs in aircraft repair and maintenance ? What skill is it you have that is so great you think mechanics belong in trailer parks or the slums with the crack heads.

They are trying to be part of the 21 century, they are trying to live a decent life in the world with the rest of YOU inflation contributers. Ever think they might have a morgage? ever think they might have children in college? ever think they might have 400 a month going out just in land and school taxes ? ever think they might be a duel working family that has 2 car payments every month ? ever think maybe they just get by in this ever increasing expensive world ? ever think ? do you ?

[post="4574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

razor, everyone lives like that these days. and that's exactly the deal. The general public sees union member compensation as above and beyond the US norm, and since everyone needs to pay for those things you listed, it just makes others upset to see those with more security and benefits being so vehemently vocal about it not being enough, when so many think its better than what they get. And when that happens, the whole 'bring down the fat cat' arguments is useless, because so many in America would prefer the unions go down first before anything else. Edited August 27, 2005 by regfootball

[CaddyXLR-V]

And the unions need to be really careful. With GM becoming more global and having announced cars off the same platforms will be able to be built all over the world, a strike would only push GM to start building that car in the other country until the workers decide they cant strike anymore. Very smart move for GM.

[regfootball]

And the unions need to be really careful. With GM becoming more global and having announced cars off the same platforms will be able to be built all over the world, a strike would only push GM to start building that car in the other country until the workers decide they cant strike anymore. Very smart move for GM.

[post="4724"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

YOU GOT IT!

[razoredge]

So ya'll promote the idea of working for less and having a lower standard of living because - - - - - - ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Throughout America we are seeing entire neighborhoods of mansions being built. Bet not one official "Union" member lives in those. Unless you consider the bar association a Union, unless you consider Doctors "organized" and all the many other high dollar jobs "unorganized" - please get a clue. Those high dollar clubs are highly organized, they know what they are doing, lets just take a look at oil prices for example, real estate prices for example, insane insurance rates for example, - -- no theres no organization there. They are getting the big bucks because they say so and for no other reason what so ever. They demand and they get. But we dont what the real contributing part of America to make a decent living - do we. Just the ones that spend all day figureing out new insurance regulation, or business regulations, or new "methods" of treating what ails you, or new laws or regulations to control your every move, all new ways to get into everybodys back pockets. Amazing how ya'll all can turn a blind eye to this, say its OK, excuse it because they got some "higher" education - ya right, what education was that, how to screw over the mass population so you can have it all while the hands that feed you step backwards year after year. You can increase the rate and cost of health care 3 fold and spew out such pile of spin that those lacking independant thought will turn it all on the people at the bottom that just get up and go to work everyday. Saying they need to work for less because those at the top can have more. Just great folks, say nothing about those going large, fast and fat, and blame those that are supposed to go down, fast and furious for not surrendering and bowing defeated before those that are lining their hollowed walls. So when ya'll went to college do they first do a labotomy so they can start from scratch and mold your entire way of thinking or do you retain independant thought ? Dont answer its obvious, the answer. If ya'll learned so much in "college" you would know that once anythings gives a little, surrenders any amount of ground, it is the beginning of the end, give an inch take a mile. Thats where we are going in America, this is not about the inch you guys are blinded into believeing its about. Its about starting the process of reducing the pay scale of the working, contrubition part of America. As an employee I have not beat 30,000 yet, but still I do not hate or despise or wish bad, or have jelously for those that are in better organized trades that allow them to actually get their fair share of the "wealth" (if you call 50,000 wealth). I admire them and realize the benefits being organized has allowed them and believe we all would be better organized, just like the fat boys, - - - - oh thats right - - - theres no organization there. Pull your heads out of your asses, its cuting off the circulation to your brains. If you feel less than 50,000 for your white collar buddies is below level do something about it, dont attack those that have made the effort to stand their ground. Spineless gumbys - dance to the pull of the puppet masters for you lack independant thought.

[The O.C.]

Pull your heads out of your asses, its cuting off the circulation to your brains. If you feel less than 50,000 for your white collar buddies is below level do something about it, dont attack those that have made the effort to stand their ground.

Spineless gumbys - dance to the pull of the puppet masters for you lack independant thought.

[post="4909"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[/quote]


The union's efforts to "stand their ground" is doing nothing but helping add to the ruin of GM, Ford, and other unionized businesses....

(and YES I know the union isn't the "only" problem GM has)

That's why so many people on here are fighting against the unions. And by the way, it's not just the UAW that is like this in regards to unions.

But the overall bitch is the unions' attitude of "gosh, we've given back enough" or "it's not our fault GM is in this mess" or "let's see Wagoner take a pay cut" or "they signed the contract so we're not renegotiating" etc, etc, etc

[Snate]

Unions should be more concerned about job security than pay. What's more important? Having a decent paying job with good job security or a better paying one where you could be abruptly laid off.

Yes, everyone and their brother knows the real problem lies in the ridiculously rising price of oil and healthcare. Guess what, its a problem that everyone in the economy is facing...so nobody is going to feel sympathetic about unions.

I could go into politics and say what our government should be doing, but I really am not going to go there.

[CaddyXLR-V]

So I guess it would be smarter to stand your ground and fight the company that pays you, even though they are losing money and marketshare. No unions might not be the only reason for GM losing money and marketshare, but the fact is, GM is losing money and marketshare. They do have to pay additional costs that foreign competitors dont have. And typically, the companies with the cost advantage win, and the others fold. I would like to see GM stay in business. Its really only a choice between see GM go under and pay no workers, or have GM cut costs where they need to be cut to remain competitive, even if that means less pay and benefits. Lower paying job or no job?

[aldw]

Union cuts should go with pay reductions for upper management.

[sciguy_0504]

So ya'll promote the idea of working for less and having a lower standard of living because - - - - - - ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Throughout America we are seeing entire neighborhoods of mansions being built. Bet not one official "Union" member lives in those. Unless you consider the bar association a Union, unless you consider Doctors "organized" and all the many other high dollar jobs "unorganized" - please get a clue. Those high dollar clubs are highly organized, they know what they are doing, lets just take a look at oil prices for example, real estate prices for example, insane insurance rates for example, - -- no theres no organization there. They are getting the big bucks because they say so and for no other reason what so ever. They demand and they get. But we dont what the real contributing part of America to make a decent living - do we. Just the ones that spend all day figureing out new insurance regulation, or business regulations, or new "methods" of treating what ails you, or new laws or regulations to control your every move, all new ways to get into everybodys back pockets.

Amazing how ya'll all can turn a blind eye to this, say its OK, excuse it because they got some "higher" education - ya right, what education was that, how to screw over the mass population so you can have it all while the hands that feed you step backwards year after year. You can increase the rate and cost of health care 3 fold and spew out such pile of spin that those lacking independant thought will turn it all on the people at the bottom that just get up and go to work everyday. Saying they need to work for less because those at the top can have more. Just great folks, say nothing about those going large, fast and fat, and blame those that are supposed to go down, fast and furious for not surrendering and bowing defeated before those that are lining their hollowed walls.

So when ya'll went to college do they first do a labotomy so they can start from scratch and mold your entire way of thinking or do you retain independant thought ? Dont answer its obvious, the answer.

If ya'll learned so much in "college" you would know that once anythings gives a little, surrenders any amount of ground, it is the beginning of the end, give an inch take a mile. Thats where we are going in America, this is not about the inch you guys are blinded into believeing its about. Its about starting the process of reducing the pay scale of the working, contrubition part of America. As an employee I have not beat 30,000 yet, but still I do not hate or despise or wish bad, or have jelously for those that are in better organized trades that allow them to actually get their fair share of the "wealth" (if you call 50,000 wealth). I admire them and realize the benefits being organized has allowed them and believe we all would be better organized, just like the fat boys, - - - - oh thats right  - - - theres no organization there.

Pull your heads out of your asses, its cuting off the circulation to your brains. If you feel less than 50,000 for your white collar buddies is below level do something about it, dont attack those that have made the effort to stand their ground.

Spineless gumbys - dance to the pull of the puppet masters for you lack independant thought.

[post="4909"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't know what you think but it takes a hell of a lot more education, money, time and determination to become a doctor or lawyer than it does to assemble cars. Like CaddyXRL-V said, the more education you have the more money you're going to make, even in a normal job such as teaching. Also, the more difficult and specialized your job is the more money you're going to make. Add those two together and it's substantially more than your typical American worker.

[razoredge]

OK, If you take your Doctors and Lawyers and other high dollar jobs and compare them to the pay of Unionized workers, Id say the scale is fairly well balanced. Thats providing this 50,000 # were pulling out of nowhere is accurate. Many are below that, and non union jobs fall of the edge of the flat world very fast. We had someone here last year that felt no one deserved to earn even 10 per hour, give it a try. Then while I realize some of you are tying to be the super heros to save GM with a tear in your heart, realize that the tiny fraction they are asking for isnt going to change a thing. GM isnt loosing market share because of the Unions, in fact if more of the country was unionized as it was 30 years ago there would be no market share problem, think about that, no dont bother, its probably not deep enough for educated minds. Lastly, has any one other than myself ever wondered why all this hype about market share and profits when its been clearly stated in many press releases that GM has had its biggest volumn years ever. Yet the volumn of employed N.American auto workers is way way way below what it was 30 years ago when GM had the huge market share. Seems market share is just hype, total volumn is all that matters and total volumn is at its highest, Union employees at the lowest. Hmm ? The whole thing just doest pass the calulator test. Thats OK though, Im sure your all right, the hype is always right. Off to the trailer parks you worthless "uneducated" wastes of oxygen. Well, you'd be alright if you were willing to work for the wages of the average Korean or Turk. Rock on a Me rica

[CaddyXLR-V]

how much competition was there 30 years? GM controlled the market, and the prices. Now there is huge pricing pressure from everywhere. And GM is still paying for many of those retired workers from 30 years ago still today.

[regfootball]

America sometimes is about investment and lots of folks have put themselves in debt to tens of thousands of bucks to get their higher education, for exactly the reason that its more exclusive and specialized and higher pay traditionally goes with it. We all had that choice at age 16,17,18 whatever. Get decent grades, save some dough, get into college, study your ass off....and in return you have a lot less chance of having to have a union do your bargaining and set your worth for you. Your worth is instead defined by your ambition, work, continuing education, and desire to always achieve more. Before anyone says anything about some kids couldn't go to college for this reason/that reason...I'd like to know what those are. I worked full time most of my way through college, couldn't get any student loans (I amassed less than a thousand bucks in loans) and my parents didn't hand much cash over to me. If you have kids, its all to important to make sure they feel the need and desire to get some sort of higher education after graduating high school. Those that don't take it upon themselves to develop their skills or career, well, then I could see why you would be interested in someone or some group having to bargain for all that stuff for you.

[bowtie_dude]

People like Razoredge just don't get it. They think every person on the planet is entitled to the highest standards. Well, they're not. No one is entitled anything, its earned. And organized labor hasn't earned anything, they've literally stolen what they have from their employers through mob tactics. Strong-arming companies to do things that are NOT in the interest of survival for the company.

[razoredge]

how much competition was there 30 years? GM controlled the market, and the prices. Now there is huge pricing pressure from everywhere. And GM is still paying for many of those retired workers from 30 years ago still today.

[post="5026"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Youre kiddin me right ?

What did you just ignore the statement I made about more sales now than ever ? That market share does not equate into gross reciepts and really means nothing, market share means nothing except braging rights.

then I guess you figure that those retired folks dont deserve a retirement ? Seriously Ive heard all you working class haters say it over and over, "retirement obligations". Like theres something wrong with retireing. Just how old are you anyhow ?

[razoredge]

People like Razoredge just don't get it.  They think every person on the planet is entitled to the highest standards.  Well, they're not.  No one is entitled anything, its earned.  And organized labor hasn't earned anything, they've literally stolen what they have from their employers through mob tactics.  Strong-arming companies to do things that are NOT in the interest of survival for the company.

[post="5227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Get over yourself youngster, I have never, never said anything about "highest standards" nor have I said anything about entitlement.

I have said all that contribute deserve their fair share.

So just how is it with all your wordly experience that you know so much about stealing ? Got a line on that stealing thing do you ? So how is it you earn your keep ? :blink:

I get alot of things little boy, however you seem to have a problems understanding what makes the world go round. Your day is going to come, it will be awhile so enjoy your nasty arrogant ignorance.

Do not put words in my mouth

[razoredge]

America sometimes is about investment and lots of folks have put themselves in debt to tens of thousands of bucks to get their higher education, for exactly the reason that its more exclusive and specialized and higher pay traditionally goes with it.

We all had that choice at age 16,17,18 whatever.  Get decent grades, save some dough, get into college, study your ass off....and in return you have a lot less chance of having to have a union do your bargaining and set your worth for you.  Your worth is instead defined by your ambition, work, continuing education, and desire to always achieve more.

Before anyone says anything about some kids couldn't go to college for this reason/that reason...I'd like to know what those are.  I worked full time most of my way through college, couldn't get any student loans (I amassed less than a thousand bucks in loans) and my parents didn't hand much cash over to me.

If you have kids, its all to important to make sure they feel the need and desire to get some sort of higher education after graduating high school.  Those that don't take it upon themselves to develop their skills or career, well, then I could see why you would be interested in someone or some group having to bargain for all that stuff for you.

[post="5128"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"lots of folks have put themselves in debt to tens of thousands of bucks to get their higher education" "I amassed less than a thousand bucks in loans"

Im not critizing you Reg, its not my place to critize people that work hard at getting somewhere (unlike the general vibe around this topic) however I will say, so you worked 30 some odd hours a week plus took classes. thats good, thats great. I went right to working 50-70 hour weeks and could not have paid for college with what I "earned". So that was a choice, which I am well aware of. I got involved in the kind of work and occupation that interested me. It was demanding work and provided a highly demanded product.

Please tell me again what makes me worth so little ?

I guess Im just having one of those "just dont get it moments"

Say what ? <_<

[trevormac98]

I think it was Razor who said that mansions are going up everywhere and not one Union person lives and those. What about Gettlefinger and the other Top UAW executives. They get paid around the clock, as long as an hourly employee is working somewhere. I am sure they are much more well to do than there plant working brethern. Unions were excellent for the US back when labor laws where non-existent and corporations acted unfair. I mean, anyone read "The Jungle" But seriously, it seems today that unions are starting to live out there welcome. Labor laws are greatly in affect and people must be treated equally, no matter what. Most Union workers are great employees who do there job and earn a living. I was once raised in a union home, sheet metal workers, and My dad went to work and did his job, and received a paycheck. He never striked and always paid his union dues. The problem is, the minority of union works who abuse the system. This is why the national media and country alike, support the union less and less. Can the world survive without unions? YES. Can it survive with unions? YES. Take the cuts to keep a job. Its better to have a job and still some sort of benefits than no job at all and no benefits. White collared workers used to have unions many years ago, and the Federal Government told them no more. Now, today, white collared workers take all the same cuts and pay deductions forced upon them that there blue collared counterparts say NO to. For 2005, GM stated that all salaried employees would not receive raises. The difference between blue union workers and white collared is the white collared do not get a choice on what happens to their benefits. Either they like it or leave it. The blue collared employees still do(union) and it makes sense to have them agree to something more manageable than to say NO and wait for the different corporations to impose a more drastic policy. Like many have said, people are just waiting in line to take a union job, even if they do not get to be a part of a union. The pay is great and the benefits above par. This is my two cents and agree or not. That is what is great with America. Unions are beneficial but they aren't when non-existent.

[honest trev]

To stay relevant, unions must do a better job of public relations, Shaiken of UC-Berkley said. "The public has been inundated for decades by an anti-union message," he said. If unions are to survive in today's competitive global economy, they must be willing to work with management in solving mutual problems, including recognizing that the health care costs are hobbling many employers, said Jules I. Crystal, a Chicago labor attorney. "The unions have to go beyond the knee-jerk reflex that management is always wrong," said Crystal, a University of Michigan law school graduate who represents management in labor disputes. "They have to take a more flexible, innovative approach." i always love this debate when it comes up. there is no mistaking which side of the fence someone is on. and the love... oh well, on to my point. the above quote is from the original article that started this love fest. i defy anyone to argue its point: stay relevant or perish. if the unions (and their members) dont come to understand that the world has changed, they will be left behind one way or another. that bit about the airline mechanics that were brought in to replace union guys could just as easily happen to CAW/UAW, except that it will be workers in mexico/china/timbuktu that are doing the work, and we will never see those jobs back in north america.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Youre kiddin me right ?

What did you just ignore the statement I made about more sales now than ever ? That market share does not equate into gross reciepts and really means nothing, market share means nothing except braging rights.

then I guess you figure that those retired folks dont deserve a retirement ? Seriously Ive heard all you working class haters say it over and over, "retirement obligations". Like theres something wrong with retireing. Just how old are you anyhow ?

[post="5235"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How about reading what I wrote again. GM controlled the prices. That means they charged enough to make a profit. Now GM is charging less than cost to keep factories running and sales up, because they have pricing pressure from a dozen more companies than their were 30 years ago. And like you always say, stuff is getting expensive. GM doesnt magically get stuff cheaper than the rest of the world, and GM has to comply with alot more laws and regulations than they did 30 years ago. How much money GM made 30 years ago is irrellevant now in 2005. Edited September 10, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[regfootball]

"lots of folks have put themselves in debt to tens of thousands of bucks to get their higher education" "I amassed less than a thousand bucks in loans"

Im not critizing you Reg, its not my place to critize people that work hard at getting somewhere (unlike the general vibe around this topic) however I will say, so you worked 30 some odd hours a week plus took classes. thats good, thats great. I went right to working 50-70 hour weeks and could not have paid for college with what I "earned". So that was a choice, which I am well aware of. I got involved in the kind of work and occupation that interested me. It was demanding work and provided a highly demanded product.

Please tell me again what makes me worth so little ?

I guess Im just having one of those "just dont get it moments"

Say what ?  <_<

[post="5255"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

if you can, clean the wax out of your eardrums and reread anywhere where i said 'razoredge is pond scum'

right. I didn't. What I did say is, we all had choices to make at the beginning of our adulthood. While any of our choices don't make us 2nd class citizens, clearly making different choices at that time has consequences for the rest of our lives in terms of earning potential from that point on.

I went to college like lots of others. Yet say, a pharmacist will make 50-100% more $$$ than what I make. Does that make me a cretin? No, but perhaps I should have taken it upon myself to maybe make a better decision back then as far as choices for the long haul. There's plenty of information out there to suggest to each and every one of us, 'flipping burgers you will make lots less money over your lifetime than being a middle manager for Proctor and Gamble'. We can use youth and our influences growing up as reasons why we maybe made some different choices, but what I was saying is twofold, you gotta own up to your decisions from the past and two, if the career you're in turns out to not be lucrative, get a new career and stop blaming others for the low pay because there was likely plenty to suggest to you over time to make a decision for yourself to live with it and be happy or get out and make a change. The market changes for no one. you must change for the market. Union stands never seem to reflect some of the realities of the markets they attemtp to serve. Edited September 9, 2005 by regfootball

[Cremazie]

People like Razoredge just don't get it.  They think every person on the planet is entitled to the highest standards.  Well, they're not.  No one is entitled anything, its earned.  And organized labor hasn't earned anything, they've literally stolen what they have from their employers through mob tactics.  Strong-arming companies to do things that are NOT in the interest of survival for the company.

[post="5227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ok, lets get this straight, I am a Union member so I may be a little bias. Over the last year my union (IBEW) and other trades unions have been negotiating with Several oil companies on work agreements but they are trying to get our unions to go for less citing that unorganized labor can do the same job at a lower rate. Now we are not talking about GM here that is bleeding from the inside out, we are talking about conglomerate oil projects that are run by the likes of Shell, Sunoco, Petro Canada, Canadian Natural, Husky Energy, Exon-Mobil. If anyone can tell me that they cannot pay workers at inflation rate of pay you have to be braindead. In our last agreement we recieved 3% over 3 years. If anyone is out there crunching numbers, that is 1% a year and average inflation for Canada is usually around 2.5% so we fall behind 1.5% each year.. In the meantime in the past 3 years oil has increased 160%, so if we are not going to get par now, we are never going to get it!

Now, I was working on a similar site this spring on an organizing drive to try and regain some strength in the oil sands, but it failed.. Most people on the unorganizd job were too worried about losing their job saying "The company can't afford to pay us union rates" I really didn't see their logic, and they didn't see mine.. Considering that their relatively small contractor made 1 billion in profit last year, I feel that they were way out to lunch. I feel that our society is so steeped in fear, most of us are too scared to stand up and be heard!
I will try and fight the fight!

Oh and by the way, if someone feels that we may get paid too much I challenge you to build a Refinery, work 5 hours away from home on 11 day shifts at 10 hours a day, living in a cramped camp. Those are the conditions that 80% of the workers on the oil sands deal with!

[regfootball]

Ok, lets get this straight, I am a Union member so I may be a little bias. Over the last year my union (IBEW) and other trades unions have been negotiating with Several oil companies on work agreements but they are trying to get our unions to go for less citing that unorganized labor can do the same job at a lower rate. Now we are not talking about GM here that is bleeding from the inside out, we are talking about conglomerate oil projects that are run by the likes of Shell, Sunoco, Petro Canada, Canadian Natural, Husky Energy, Exon-Mobil. If anyone can tell me that they cannot pay workers at  inflation rate of pay you have to be braindead. In our last agreement we recieved 3% over 3 years. If anyone is out there crunching numbers, that is 1% a year and average inflation for Canada is usually around 2.5% so we fall behind 1.5% each year.. In the meantime in the past 3 years oil has increased 160%, so if we are not going to get par now, we are never going to get it!

Now, I was working on a similar site this spring on an organizing drive to try and regain some strength in the oil sands, but it failed.. Most people on the unorganizd job were too worried about losing their job saying "The company can't afford to pay us union rates" I really didn't see their logic, and they didn't see mine.. Considering that their relatively small contractor made 1 billion in profit last year, I feel that they were way out to lunch. I feel that our society is so steeped in fear, most of us are too scared to stand up and be heard!
I will try and fight the fight!

Oh and by the way, if someone feels that we may get paid too much I challenge you to build a Refinery, work 5 hours away from home on 11 day shifts at 10 hours a day, living in a cramped camp. Those are the conditions that 80% of the workers on the oil sands deal with!

[post="11924"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

while I feel its mostly fair for folks to always get cost of living increases........the forces in your case might be external that say, 'we can do the same work for cheaper'. When unions organize, they also become bigger 'one stop shops' for the folks looking for cost cutting. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Cremazie]

while I feel its mostly fair for folks to always get cost of living increases........the forces in your case might be external that say, 'we can do the same work for cheaper'.  When unions organize, they also become bigger 'one stop shops' for the folks looking for cost cutting.  Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[post="11927"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I just appeas that nobody really cares if the standard is broken.. Remember weekends off were brought to the world by unions!

[regfootball]

I just appeas that nobody really cares if the standard is broken.. Remember weekends off were brought to the world by unions!

[post="12094"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yeah, but now it is such a standard, and the standard work week is 40 hours, that everyone is used to it and anyone who tried to go back to slave labor days, the public wouldn't give them the time of day.

Your point is that unions brought great change to the labor world. They did, but it was all a long time ago.

[Clownzilla]

I think all this is simple. Unions have the right to ask for more BUT companies have the right to move shop. Being employed at an exclusive GM dealership for many years and seeing market share lost to Japan, Germany, and South Korea, I have something simple to say. I have to live my life and pay my bills, I have worked my butt off to get where I am, so at this point in my life I could care less if GM moved EVERYTHING to China, Mexico, or wherever. I would rather give work to a communist in China, than a greedy (yes....GREEDY!!!!) union worker in the USA if it mean that I can keep my non-union (hard worked for) job. If a union worker and his/her kids starve in the streets, that union worker has the blood on his/her hands. The ball is in the hands of the unions, and at this point they are making some big mistakes. I worked hard to get to where I am now, and I took a path that most anybody could of taken. No union worker is going to make me lose the job that I have worked hard for just because the union has an idea the he/she deserves this and that. The only thing that anyone deserves in this great country of ours is freedom, and how a person chooses to use that freedom is totaly up to them!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's a race to the bottom folks!  We will have to compete with 3rd world country's labor rates, and become a poor nation in the process.  Won't the whole world be happy when the US is just as poor as they are?

So screw Unions, tariffs, restrictions, actual "fair" trade, etc.......lets see if we can compete globally for the cheapest labor!!

[post="4466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:cheers: :lol:

How right you are my friend!!!

Every sign points to it yet American's are too naive to believe it.

And it has only just begun, trust me. Kiss your standard of living goodbye America and say thanks to jeaolous countries and traitor leaders for selling out your future.

[Cremazie]

I think all this is simple. Unions have the right to ask for more BUT companies have the right to move shop. Being employed at an exclusive GM dealership for many years and seeing market share lost to Japan, Germany, and South Korea, I have something simple to say. I have to live my life and pay my bills, I have worked my butt off to get where I am, so at this point in my life I could care less if GM moved EVERYTHING to China, Mexico, or wherever. I would rather give work to a communist in China, than a greedy (yes....GREEDY!!!!) union worker in the USA if it mean that I can keep my non-union (hard worked for) job. If a union worker and his/her kids starve in the streets, that union worker has the blood on his/her hands. The ball is in the hands of the unions, and at this point they are making some big mistakes. I worked hard to get to where I am now, and  I took a path that most anybody could of taken. No union worker is going to make me lose the job that I have worked hard for just because the union has an idea the he/she deserves this and that. The only thing that anyone deserves in this great country of ours is freedom, and how a person chooses to use that freedom is totaly up to them!

[post="12329"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You have no idea what you are talking about, Sales is one thing, but construction and assembly are another. When you have thousands of employees you need a union to protect workers rights. In my opinion if GM doesn't want to build cars with American and Canadian workers that happen to be unionized then they shouldn't sell cars here either... The government should be there to step in before all major manufacturing is gone from America. Believe me even though they are building new plants in the states, once japanese auto makers start building cars in China on a large scale unionized or not, their american plants will close as well.

I beg to ask the question, How many Union members have you sold cars to?

[sciguy_0504]

You have no idea what you are talking about, Sales is one thing, but construction and assembly are another. When you have thousands of employees you need a union to protect workers rights. In my opinion if GM doesn't want to build cars with American and Canadian workers that happen to be unionized then they shouldn't sell cars here either... The government should be there to step in before all major manufacturing is gone from America. Believe me even though they are building new plants in the states, once japanese auto makers start building cars in China on a large scale unionized or not, their american plants will close as well.

I beg to ask the question, How many Union members have you sold cars to?

[post="12363"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Manufacturing will be "gone" from the U.S. because the unions can't cut the companies they work for any slack. The companies end up moving production elsewhere (ie. a cheaper place). Would it really hurt you to pay 10 - 25% of your health insurance or receive a slight decrease in wages if you don't want to hurt your benefits? How about providing for your own retirement by putting some of that paycheck away or investing some of it? I do both now and I'm 18. I won't be relying on any company or government to take care of me when I have the resources and opportunity to take care of myself.

My dad owns a company he built from the ground up. It's small, only a few employees but he's made it past what's considered the big hurdle to small businesses: staying in business for more than 5 years. His nonunion employees have the same benefits as unionized workers: 100% healthcare coverage, a company car, paid days off, etc. He also gives them the option to trade in their benefits for a higher salary.

My point is that you keep complaining manufacturing companies are going overseas but unionized workers with outrageous demands are part of the problem.

[Cremazie]

Manufacturing will be "gone" from the U.S. because the unions can't cut the companies they work for any slack.  The companies end up moving production elsewhere (ie. a cheaper place).  Would it really hurt you to pay 10 - 25% of your health insurance or receive a slight decrease in wages if you don't want to hurt your benefits?  How about providing for your own retirement by putting some of that paycheck away or investing some of it?  I do both now and I'm 18.  I won't be relying on any company or government to take care of me when I have the resources and opportunity to take care of myself.

My dad owns a company he built from the ground up.  It's small, only a few employees but he's made it past what's considered the big hurdle to small businesses:  staying in business for more than 5 years.  His nonunion employees have the same benefits as unionized workers:  100% healthcare coverage, a company car, paid days off, etc.  He also gives them the option to trade in their benefits for a higher salary.

My point is that you keep complaining manufacturing companies are going overseas but unionized workers with outrageous demands are part of the problem.

[post="12399"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, remembering I don't build cars and my personal battle with Oil companies is mostly different than UAW and the car companies. Considering that they are losing money and market share largely. GM is really in hot over healthcare and benefit expenses. I am Union and I feel that the oly way unions are going to survive is go into the 3rd world countries and fight the fight they foughty here 100 years ago. Basically where I work it doesn't matter if I am union or not, if they don't pay the right wage, we are not going to work there.

[sciguy_0504]

Well, remembering I don't build cars and my personal battle with Oil companies is mostly different than UAW and the car companies. Considering that they are losing money and market share largely. GM is really in hot over healthcare and benefit expenses. I am Union and I feel that the oly way unions are going to survive is go into the 3rd world countries and fight the fight they foughty here 100 years ago. Basically where I work it doesn't matter if I am union or not, if they don't pay the right wage, we are not going to work there.

[post="12403"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That is a pretty good idea. To try to level the playing field (union or nonunion), U.S. unions should do some "undercover work" in developing countries.

I like it.

[razoredge]

I cant believe this is still going on. I think all trades should be unionized and organized. Standards set by large commitees and then get the jobs done. No one lives at extremely high standards and no one lives at low standards. However there should be no protection for slackers, trouble makers, and a varity of other human waste. We all know the moneys out there for a better standard just look around. Its not being distributed appropriately for the producers. The scale has gotten way out of balance in the past 20+ years. Reg - that has to be one of the first times you have made me laugh {pond scum} I am called that regularly by my loved ones. What I meant by "So tell me again what makes me worth so little". Its a saying I came up with that I believe we all should be asking ourselfs and our employers. I used to be anti union and thought I was superman and I could prove how much more I could do than these other "over paid workers". All I did was got tired, weary, woreout and poor. I used to say "what makes them worth so much ?" It was the wrong question !The correct question should have been "what makes me worth so little ?". Think about it, chew on it for awhile, ponder the possibilities. Then perhaps one day rather than pointing the finger at one of your tax bracket brothers you will look higher up the mountain to the source of the problems and say " hey ! What makes me worth so little? You big fat ocean scum! " So Reg I wasnt implying you said I was worth so little. I can deal with the pond scum thing, I have learned to live with it ;-).

[Clownzilla]

You have no idea what you are talking about, Sales is one thing, but construction and assembly are another. When you have thousands of employees you need a union to protect workers rights. In my opinion if GM doesn't want to build cars with American and Canadian workers that happen to be unionized then they shouldn't sell cars here either... The government should be there to step in before all major manufacturing is gone from America. Believe me even though they are building new plants in the states, once japanese auto makers start building cars in China on a large scale unionized or not, their american plants will close as well.

I beg to ask the question, How many Union members have you sold cars to?

[post="12363"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

THIS IS NOT THE 1800's!!!!!! Your hands are not getting chopped off in machines, or being forced to work 80 hour shifts, or are you a 10 year old working boy in the factories! The "rights" that you want are the rights to get something for nothing! I could care less if you die of starvation......BECAUSE IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT! The government should not protect your want for greed, oh sorry "survival". Listen, I am in the same rat race that you are in, and I played my cards well. Just because you want to take an easier (yes, easier) route to free stuff doesen't mean that you are going to get it. I beleive in competition, pure and simple, and you are not compeating. All you are doing is leeching on my hard work. I am all for Chinese made cars, I could care less about your well being. I actually hope that the Japanese companies follow suit too, because I think that this will mark the end of something for nothing for the "working class". You will be forced to play on my level, and you will lose BAD!!!! Oh, and yes, we do sell some vehicles to union workers, but with the loss of those sells, we will compete for new ones!

[razoredge]

Wow. listen to this arrogant Ahole, you couldnt walk the walk there MR polished finger nails. Your the ones that could'nt compete, your the ones that would be left in the cold with out the tasks that are done by those you degrade as being worthless. Yea, well all be loosers when you knock us down.....but you can its legal.......and we cant knock you down, its illegal.......not that we would want to.....we know the meaning of hardship & hard earned money and do not wish hardship on others, we are humble, you are an arrogant Ahole " I am all for Chinese made cars, I could care less about your well being. I actually hope that the Japanese companies follow suit too, because I think that this will mark the end of something for nothing for the "working class". You will be forced to play on my level, and you will lose BAD!!!!" Your times a comming too Mr. Tic/toc, tic/toc

[Cremazie]

THIS IS NOT THE 1800's!!!!!! Your hands are not getting chopped off in machines, or being forced to work 80 hour shifts, or are you a 10 year old working boy in the factories! The "rights" that you want are the rights to get something for nothing! I could care less if you die of starvation......BECAUSE IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT! The government should not protect your want for greed, oh sorry "survival". Listen, I am in the same rat race that you are in, and I played my cards well. Just because you want to take an easier (yes, easier) route to free stuff doesen't mean that you are going to get it. I beleive in competition, pure and simple, and you are not compeating. All you are doing is leeching on my hard work. I am all for Chinese made cars, I could care less about your well being. I actually hope that the Japanese companies follow suit too, because I think that this will mark the end of something for nothing for the "working class". You will be forced to play on my level, and you will lose BAD!!!! Oh, and yes, we do sell some vehicles to union workers, but with the loss of those sells, we will compete for new ones!

[post="12699"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You have no idea what hard work is, you have no idea what it is like to work a repetitive job or a job where you work outside in -40 and blistering winds.
I'll step away from the Auto industry because you attack the very fabric of which I am a part of. You think we have it easy? If it is -40 we still work on outside in the blistering cold, if not the plant will stop running.
While you are in your working? Prolly at the very worst standing inside complaining about the weather saying "The weather is killing sales". Meanwhile once again it is killing feeling in my face, toes and fingers. Trying to keep ahead of the list of tasks for my shift. You have worked hard to do what you have done? We all Have. Teachers, dentists, farmers, and almost all of us on this site. I myself am an Electrician and plenty of schooling to show for it, but then again, I don't know how to work for what I have.. it was all given to me..?!?! I don't think there is a real difference. I still have to work and we all play by the same rules, we just have people working together to make sure the rules are enforced. I would trust my life with most of my co-workers, I wouldn't trust you to check my tire pressure!

In case you missed it, I agree with razoredge
"Your times a comming too Mr. Tic/toc, tic/toc" Edited September 11, 2005 by Cremazie

[Clownzilla]

You have no idea what hard work is, you have no idea what it is like to work a repetitive job or a job where you work outside in -40 and blistering winds.
I'll step away from the Auto industry because you attack the very fabric of which I am a part of. You think we have it easy? If it is -40 we still work on outside in the blistering cold, if not the plant will stop running.
While you are in your working? Prolly at the very worst standing inside complaining about the weather saying "The weather is killing sales". Meanwhile once again it is killing feeling in my face, toes and fingers. Trying to keep ahead of the list of tasks for my shift. You have worked hard to do what you have done? We all Have. Teachers, dentists, farmers, and almost all of us on this site. I myself am an Electrician and plenty of schooling to show for it,  but then again, I don't know how to work for what I have.. it was all given to me..?!?!  I don't think there is a real difference. I still have to work and we all play by the same rules, we just have people working together to make sure the rules are enforced. I would trust my life with most of my co-workers, I wouldn't trust you to check my tire pressure!

In case you missed it, I agree with razoredge
"Your times a comming too Mr. Tic/toc, tic/toc"

[post="12723"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, many factory workers will not have to worry about freezing tempatures, and trying to keep up with tasks.........because the Chinese will do it for us. While, I will still be able to keep selling vehicles. If I lose my job, I will not whine about "being fair", and "the government owes me", I will use my skills to get (better yet fight) for a good non-union job. While doing so, I will shake the hand of the Chinese worker while laughing in the face of the union worker. Unions have done this all to themselves, and I don't feel sorry for them one bit. I am through with this conversation, because I KNOW I am in the right, and this is just going in circles. You union workers can keep whining, but while you are, us non-union workers are going to step all over you people!

[sciguy_0504]

I still have to work and we all play by the same rules, we just have people working together to make sure the rules are enforced.

Are those people enforcing the rules or making up the rules? "Oh, I think we deserve a 15% salary increase this year so that'll be a rule and if our employer doesn't abide by it, we'll strike!"

Your salary should go up because you're actually working for that increase in salary and/or better benefits. I believe it's called merit pay. You shouldn't demand a certain pay and expect to get it based on your definition of whether your job is "hard" or "time consuming" or "needed." Many people believe those words describe their jobs.

Bob and John assemble cars at GM. Bob is lazy, unmotivated and doesn't care much about his job. There are mistakes he makes every day because he doesn't care but they don't effect him, just GM. Meanwhile, John loves his job and does the best he can do. He believes in his company and his fellow employees and it shows. They're both paid $60,000 a year, not including benefits. Which worker would you a) demote, B) promote, c) fire, or d) give a raise to? My understanding is that doesn't happen with unions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[cmattson]

Unions are not a perfect vehicle; but I do believe they play an important part in "balancing the scales". Today's Mpls Star and Tribune had this fact: In 2003, the average CEO made 301 times the lowest paid employee. In 2004, it's 432. That's a 43.5% increase in pay in one year -- and last time I checked, our highest executives were hardly underpaid. So what keeps a balance? The fact is that a majority of our populace has lost a great bit of their spending power -- a fact that goes hand-in-hand with our current & neverending economic malaise. As more and more jobs are exported, more and more of us will be resigned to lower and lower paying jobs -- as those will be the only jobs available. I used to believe that education was the key. If you didn't like your position, you could achieve something better through education and effort. Sadly, our newest exports are the highly educated computer science, engineering, and (now) accounting positions. Lets say you had a kid in his last year of high school, and he asked you for advice on career paths, in what direction would you steer him? Manufacturing jobs are leaving daily -- as are the higher education jobs I mentioned before. Largely, service industry jobs don't pay crap, so I'd guess I'd steer my son or daughter into business management. What else is safe? Back to unions. Unions serve a larger role than just "making sure workers don't work 80 hour weeks" or "making sure workers don't work in unsafe working environments". Unions provide a balance; they ensure that a working-man can earn a liveable wage and have some spending power. As our executive class is continually expecting more and more; whether it be through outrageous pay or through outrageous returns-on-investment, the working class has been squeezed. Unions comfortable or even marginally generous wages look excessive to the rest of us that haven't been able to hold onto benefits or pay. We've been turned against our fellow workers. We will gladly tear down our fellow workers who have found a way to earn/hold onto more than us; but we won't target or attack the fat-cats who are continually squeezing us to accept less and less. It's deplorable. You go back 25 years and it was commonplace to have your company provide you with a pension and provide healthcare for you and your family. Fast forward to today. How many jobs even offer YOU healthcare? Even if they offer you some sort of heathcare coverage, how much is your co-pay? And coverage for your family? You'll hafta to pay for that yourself. Pension? Laughable. It's a 401k -- and it's self-funded. If your fortunate, your employer will match to some paulty amount. See how we've been squeezed? Union workers are the only ones who've been able to retain it longer than the rest of us. And we turn against them? Perhaps we should rethink WHO is ultimately responsible and WHY. Unfortunately, GM must compete against non-union competitors -- and they can produce their goods for less. What is GM to do? It's a sad situation. I'm not going to fault GM for having the legacy it does: it should be proud of how many employees it's had and how well they've historically been paid. GM's been a GREAT corporate citizen (something that cannot be said for corporations like Miller Beer, which is now incorporated in an island nation). I'm not going to fault a GM union worker for taking the best-available job he/she can find. This is something that they are going to have to work through together. Let's hope that reasonable minds can find a middle-ground. Obviously concessions need to be made.

[Cremazie]

Are those people enforcing the rules or making up the rules?  "Oh, I think we deserve a 15% salary increase this year so that'll be a rule and if our employer doesn't abide by it, we'll strike!"

[post="12771"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It doesn't exactly go that way, I think what the UAW is going to do is crazy.. I think that most of these disputes should be settled in an agreement, or it should go to arbitration. Strikes hurt everyone. I don't know who gets 15% Maybe the UAWs but not me! As I stated earlier, we get beat on all the time.. we bend because we would rather take less and work than strike, miss time, pay and respect we all have bills that have to be paid.

Bob and John assemble cars at GM.  Bob is lazy, unmotivated and doesn't care much about his job.  There are mistakes he makes every day because he doesn't care but they don't effect him, just GM.  Meanwhile, John loves his job and does the best he can do.  He believes in his company and his fellow employees and it shows.  They're both paid $60,000 a year, not including benefits.  Which worker would you a) demote, B) promote, c) fire, or d) give a raise to?  My understanding is that doesn't happen with unions.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Where I have worked, if the scabby worker makes mistakes, he is let known, if it continues he is given 2 written warnings and on the third warning he is plain out fired. If he is a lazy worker he is laid off. The people who work hard get promotions, same as anywhere. But basically if you are useless they don't want you.. they'l make you history. Workers don't stand up for workers that don't care. At least they shouldn't!

[IbuyGM]

Its unfortunate to have polished finger nails. People of non-union jobs cannot cut manual labor. I guess I wasted all that money and hard work completing an engineering degree. I thought this discussion was about the UAW, not all the unions in general. UAW does have it somewhat easier. But seriously, fighting the oil company for fair living conditions and higher pay, please, let me get my violin. You ever read "The Jungle?" Work in those conditions and then complain. God, a job is a job. You chose your profession by working blue collar and not furthing your education. I dont believe people that say I never had the chance to go to college for this or that reason. Well, that is the choice you made. Everyone has the chance to go to college, especially nowadays. So really, if you dont like your job or something, change it. That is the problem, American people will just complain but not do anything about it. All of us on this site all enjoy somewhat of a decent living, union or not. Really, lets all just agree to disagree. Unions in the past where very helpful, unfortunately some union members, not all, have given the organized labor front a bad name. So tell those few people to shut up. Accept cuts that help the company to stay afloat. Because without a company, there can be no union. If they file bankruptcy, then they dont have to pay your salary or benefits. I run into a lot of people who try to fault me for getting a higher education. And I run into a lot of people who fault non college grads for not getting a higher education. I personally think, if you can provide for yourself and your family, then I applaud you, college grad or not. However, union members who complain about everything, oh well. Want to change it, get a degree. Because today, one does not have a lot of options without a college degree. I also will not be suprised if one day, all blue collared jobs, require a college degree. The more technology increases, the more education will be needed. And Razoredge, the only reason people are attacking you is because you say the stuff that make me want to say "Shut Up." If a hurricane hit you, would you be able to leave. Yes! SO think about it that way. You have a job that allows you to provide for your family and also, provide internet services so you can post on this website. You could have it a lot worse, and that goes for everyone else. Lets be thankful.