GME says no to new Calibra

[VenSeattle]

Who's threatening, I'm thinking outside the box so both the G8 and Camaro can live to see more than 2 model years. I think if GM got rid of Buick in North America so the G8 and Camaro could live longer lives would be a fair trade off.

Here's my direct response to PCS ---> Too late to be evasive. Your motive was all too clear. My comment had nothing to do with "Buick" or "the salvation of Camaro, G8, Zeta, or Alpha."

Your comment was a direct response to my criticism of GME's recent actions that portray it to be uncooperative with other GM regions.

To even insinuate that a vendetta could culminate against Buick over something so trivial, especially in an act of retaliation to slight criticism, shows a severe lack of integrity. Also, to suggest that Buick could be phased out so Pontiac (G8) could survive discredits the past several months of detail provided by you on how GM is methodically phasing out Pontiac.

Even then, with the above being obvious…how does your suggestion even make sense???

1) Buick is currently out of GME’s jurisdiction: GMNA & GMAP. Once GME has enough influence over those regions, the future of Camaro & G8 will be long decided.

2) Even if GME had the influence over GMNA & GMAP that would be necessary to accomplish such a feat, Buick could not be phased out of the North American market in time to make a difference for Alpha, Zeta, Camaro, or G8’s salvation. The NG LaCrosse is a finished product. The Enclave MLC is through 2013. Lucerne’s is 2010/2011. The dealership franchises would rebel and cause an uprising. Something to consider:

…look at how much money GM had to pay for its 2000 decision to eliminate the smaller Oldsmobile unit. It was obligated under dealer franchise agreements to buy back parts, cars, and some service department tooling. And to keep dealers happy, the company paid them $3,000 per vehicle sold in the last full year. The final bill for closing Olds came to about $1 billion. It left plants that made the cars underutilized, and cost GM market share.

.

.

3) There is no direct link between the G8 & Camaro vehicles and Buick as a whole. Buick’s Zeta sedan will not be manufactured in the same plants as G8 & Camaro. Even if the Buick Zeta was axed, the rest of Buick’s line-up (Buick’s Lambda, Epsilon II, and possible Delta II based vehicles) have no bearing on the viability of Alpha or Zeta.

Some other points to consider…

1) The case for axing Buick in NA is decreasing. The average buyer’s age dropped nearly 10 years between 2006 & 2007.

2) Buick’s operations in GMNA & GMAP combined were last reported as profitable. Sharing the same vehicles in both markets increases that potential. (Especially if Chinese Buicks are being exported from North America.)

3) If Buick is phased out, many Buick buyers (like many Oldsmobile buyers) would not buy another GM brand. The loyalty lies with the brand, not with GM as a Company. I, for one, would buy new vehicles elsewhere. I’m not interested in Cadillac, Saturn, or Chevrolet. Least of all, a G8 or Camaro.

Something that you so added after I started this reply:

It's GM's message not mine. However it's a sobering thought what GM must do to survive as a company, but trust me on this, it will do them. It has to!

Your comment about Buick being axed to save G8 & Camaro was not GM's message, but your own. As others have come to the same conclusion as I have, they're not related in the slightest.

[VenSeattle]

I'm starting to sound like Ninety-Eight Regency... Where is he? Writing that gave me a headache.

[Oracle of Delphi]

nope. you're wrong. I understand GM must do what it needs to survive, and I hope for that, and I could care less if the direction they start taking is one you are proposing, because I know I will not die if these cars can come out, and hey even with what they've got now on the roads they wouldn't have won my business anyways [outside of some Cadillacs]. It's how you put it across. These are our favorite cars....and as someone in the know, you bandy about like you are priveleged and we are toast. And I don't care for it. My proposal: we do away with you.

I point out what will take place in the near future no more no less. As far as caring about how GM is portrayed, as I look at a history of your post, most if not all are very critical of GM, according to you GM can't do much right at all.

I don't take that approach, I believe GME's direction will be what saves GM from itself. Just because you have an issue on my style to me, is a personal one, I don't particularly like yours either. I have broken no rule in posting and I try for the most part to keep my language clean. I find it funny that my words could hurt you so, this is a forum, if you don't like the message just ignore it, that's what I do to the majority of yours, or simply block me.

As for my personal views I own two V8's and one V6 and will drive them for a long, long while even if gas goes to 10 bucks a gallon, I stand ready to order a CTS-V soon, so I don't hate V8's, but I do realize that GM has to change to survive in the long run.

Like I said if I were to die tomorrow, nothing will change, what's coming is still going to come, you can either brace yourself for the changes, or not, that's your choice. I understand change is scary, but sometimes it's necessary. If I never post here again, I hope you all realize that.

I think CheersandGears is bigger than your narrow view of it, what drew me here was this "GM's Biggest fans and Toughest Critics", I am most likely that in a nutshell. But if I am voted off the Island just because you don't like my views or how they are relayed, then tell me that I will go of my own free will, It's just a forum after all, and my life and GM will go on.

However if membership is by committee as you suggest, perhaps you need to post that somewhere, so future members will know the rules when you don't like someone.

[Camino LS6]

Step back and take a breath everyone.

Some things to remember:

- We don't "try" members in open forums, any action taken against any member will take place in the mod forum. Proceedings there are not discussed outside of it.

- The proper way to lodge any complaint about any member is to contact a mod or admin about it.

- C&G is a very tolerant forum, and we aim to keep it that way.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here's my direct response to PCS ---> Too late to be evasive. Your motive was all too clear. My comment had nothing to do with "Buick" or "the salvation of Camaro, G8, Zeta, or Alpha."

Your comment was a direct response to my criticism of GME's recent actions that portray it to be uncooperative with other GM regions.

To even insinuate that a vendetta could culminate against Buick over something so trivial, especially in an act of retaliation to slight criticism, shows a severe lack of integrity. Also, to suggest that Buick could be phased out so Pontiac (G8) could survive discredits the past several months of detail provided by you on how GM is methodically phasing out Pontiac.

Even then, with the above being obvious…how does your suggestion even make sense???

1) Buick is currently out of GME’s jurisdiction: GMNA & GMAP. Once GME has enough influence over those regions, the future of Camaro & G8 will be long decided.

2) Even if GME had the influence over GMNA & GMAP that would be necessary to accomplish such a feat, Buick could not be phased out of the North American market in time to make a difference for Alpha, Zeta, Camaro, or G8’s salvation. The NG LaCrosse is a finished product. The Enclave MLC is through 2013. Lucerne’s is 2010/2011. The dealership franchises would rebel and cause an uprising. Something to consider:

.

.

3) There is no direct link between the G8 & Camaro vehicles and Buick as a whole. Buick’s Zeta sedan will not be manufactured in the same plants as G8 & Camaro. Even if the Buick Zeta was axed, the rest of Buick’s line-up (Buick’s Lambda, Epsilon II, and possible Delta II based vehicles) have no bearing on the viability of Alpha or Zeta.

Some other points to consider…

1) The case for axing Buick in NA is decreasing. The average buyer’s age dropped nearly 10 years between 2006 & 2007.

2) Buick’s operations in GMNA & GMAP combined were last reported as profitable. Sharing the same vehicles in both markets increases that potential. (Especially if Chinese Buicks are being exported from North America.)

3) If Buick is phased out, many Buick buyers (like many Oldsmobile buyers) would not buy another GM brand. The loyalty lies with the brand, not with GM as a Company. I, for one, would buy new vehicles elsewhere. I’m not interested in Cadillac, Saturn, or Chevrolet. Least of all, a G8 or Camaro.

Something that you so added after I started this reply:

Your comment about Buick being axed to save G8 & Camaro was not GM's message, but your own. As others have come to the same conclusion as I have, they're not related in the slightest.

Ven, that is not a vendetta, we spoke of this possibility many times on MSN, I actually told you many options are on the table and moving Buick to a Chinese brand only was being discussed, I didn't say it to hurt you or threaten you but to remind you of that. Something has to give, to meet CAFE and CO2, yeah it was given in a tongue in cheek way, but it got your attention didn't it?

What should GM do to meet CAFE and CO2 regs, should it be Killing Zeta, Killing a Brand, Moving a Brand, offer no V8's etc, etc, there re many things on the table and many things being discussed to meet these issues head on, when I say GM is going to use Frog Farts to run engines, do you take that as Gospel too? Come on!

[Camino LS6]

Okay, now that I've said what officially needed to be said, let me make clear that I find the scenario laid out by PCS to be entirely wrongheaded, if not absurd in its extremity. The planned actions are reactionary and counter-productive in my view, and the short-sighted nature of those plans makes me fear for the future of GM.

As for tact, yeah PCS, you could employ it a bit better. Still, no rules of the board are being broken by that fact - or you would have heard from me in an official capacity by now.

So, how about we all tone things down just a hair and continue the debate in a civil fashion?

[Camino LS6]

Ven, that is not a vendetta, we spoke of this possibility many times on MSN, I actually told you many options are on the table and moving Buick to a Chinese brand only was being discussed, I didn't say it to hurt you or threaten you but to remind you of that. Something has to give, to meet CAFE and CO2, yeah it was given in a tongue in cheek way, but it got your attention didn't it?

What should GM do to meet CAFE and CO2 regs, should it be Killing Zeta, Killing a Brand, Moving a Brand, offer no V8's etc, etc, there re many things on the table and many things being discussed to meet these issues head on, when I say GM is going to use Frog Farts to run engines, do you take that as Gospel too? Come on!

I believe that there are a great many things GM can do as alternatives to what you have advocated here. Far more positive alternatives.

[Oracle of Delphi]

As a gesture of my good will on this forum, I will remove my Amy Winehous sig, it was put up as a joke anyway.

[wildcat]

Well you know I'm sure GME could always take out Buick too. It would be easy to kill off the 3 models in North America and let Buick be a Chinese only brand. Easy as pie as a matter of fact.

Then GM loses me as a customer, and I will do everything I can to convince others to buy a Toyota. Is that what reaction GM wants from a loyal customer?

Buick has already proven they can sell... with waiting lists even... when they're given world class product.

If GM truly thinks that the Camaro is its most important product, even to the elimination of others, Heaven help them. Buick was the cornerstone and heart of GM and if that counts for nothing, then GM has its collective head up its ass. As was said, if GM can't save Buick (its heart), it can't save anything.

What you dislike are, the things I've said are starting to come true.

I would agree with that, until I saw this latest series of posts. What is very unappealing right now is the mean-spirited way you are saying things in this thread. Make up your mind - is Pontiac at risk of being closed? Is Buick? I know that many keep saying all that GM needs are Chevy, Saturn, and Cadillac. All that I can tell you is if GM cuts / loses / shutters one more brand (whatever it is), it will be perceived as irrelevant and a loser - not that it already isn't by the majority of people. They already mismanaged the great legacy of the historic brand Oldsmobile and despite their "knowledge," couldn't save it.

The people on this board, particularly the choppers and artists, have shown they can clean GM's clock with superior ideas for products. Too bad that GM, with all its resources (in NA, China, Europe, and... for all i care right now... in Hell) can't seem to do as well.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I believe that there are a great many things GM can do as alternatives to what you have advocated here. Far more positive alternatives.

Camino, I am not advocating any one of them, what I said is they are being discussed, and many many more too. I can't say all that is being discussed, but trust me there are a great many more.

[Camino LS6]

You make a strong case, Wildcat.

[rambaran]

this is nuts! damning gm for their products that are not even out yet?

imho i'd love to see rear drive v8s, big pickups that can tow small buildings, and 1000hp v-16 caddies, would love it...but that's probably just not going to happen

...but it doesn't really matter, we'll be electric soon, just a matter of time, and you can have your rwd hub motor driven torque monster

then

[Camino LS6]

this is nuts! damning gm for their products that are not even out yet?

imho i'd love to see rear drive v8s, big pickups that can tow small buildings, and 1000hp v-16 caddies, would love it...but that's probably just not going to happen

...but it doesn't really matter, we'll be electric soon, just a matter of time, and you can have your rwd hub motor driven torque monster

then

That remains to be seen.

[ocnblu]

Internal combustion engines can have an unlimited future with renewable alternative fuels.

[Camino LS6]

Internal combustion engines can have an unlimited future with renewable alternative fuels.

Even ones with Huge horsepower and dimensions.

Again: Change the fuel, not the cars.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Make up your mind - is Pontiac at risk of being closed? Is Buick? I know that many keep saying all that GM needs are Chevy, Saturn, and Cadillac. All that I can tell you is if GM cuts / loses / shutters one more brand (whatever it is), it will be perceived as irrelevant and a loser - not that it already isn't by the majority of people. They already mismanaged the great legacy of the historic brand Oldsmobile and despite their "knowledge," couldn't save it.

Wildcat how can I tell you information like that without losing my job? As it is now, I hint at plans that are going to happen soon, then when they are officially announced, I then say see there you go.

No one hated seeing Oldsmobile go more than I did, it should have been Saturn that got the axe in my view. How much money has GM invested in Saturn to make it the Oldsmobile of today? Or at least make that brand the torchbearer of what Oldsmobile use to be.

[wildcat]

I don't know what your job is. But use your position to be a voice of reason with GM. Why doesn't anybody stand up for what is right anymore? Everywhere, it's all about greed and big corporations screwing the American middle and lower class.

GM can have all its 8 brands if it uses some smarts in differentiating them. Nobody says Buicks have to be big. Make a small, CAFE-friendly Buick. (I still say the Mini looks like it could have a shunrken '54 Buick Special grille.) Chevy isn't the beginning and end-all of cars. What did GM waste time with the Riviera Concept if Buick isn't in the picture, long-term? Oh, i guess Buick is good enough to rape it for whatever profit it's making in China, then we'll switch all badging to Chevies. F*** GM!

Where was anyone to speak up for Oldsmobile? GM has to look in the mirror and realize they're idiots. How else do you run a car company that sold a million or so in the 80s out of operation? By being greedy, complacent, stupid, arrogant.

[ZL-1]

Wow, this thread sure has developed and I see some pretty emotional views here. Very interesting!

[hyperv6]

Is that what you do turbo200 when you don't like someone? Odd I thought this was a forum, where people discuss different views and communicate ideas. It's not me you dislike turbo200, in fact you don't even know me. What you dislike are, the things I've said are starting to come true. It's GM's message not mine. However it's a sobering thought what GM must do to survive as a company, but trust me on this, it will do them. It has to!

As for me, I will go on record to say I don't dislike anyone, not in my nature.

Ahhh but you do hate Holden.......!

I for one do not enjoy most of what you post. It is not often the content but the delivery. Some of your post come across like a 16 year olds taunt.

It is not that anyone hates you but it is the tack you take and the fact you tend to rub things in. Many of use have been here for years and do not always agree but we do try to show some respect to the other guy by not rubbing it in [such as your anoying tick tock]. It is best to make a statment and leave it for the others to comment then properly respond with respect for the other guy opinion or ideas.

Most people here are as informed on the web about GM as anywhere. If you go to GM iside news they are still begging for cars GM made clear long ago they were not going to build. Some there have littl idea how GM or the industry as a whole works but here most have a good grasp.

Some who are lashing out are good people but they can only get pressed for so long before they push back.

As for your insight I find many of your post read like a horoscope. Something bad is going to happen or something great is in the future but little substance. Your are very good at the non comment prediction. As for coming true much of what you have posted is either already true and posted elsewhere on the net or like the prediction Pontiacs death. Your not really sticking your neck out there as you have a 50% chance of being correct at the worse case.

If you know something say it and give some good reasons why or when. If you don't have that or can't say to back it up your better off not posting it. I find that many times many can post half as much as say twice as much. It is not a game to see how many post you have but what substance you say it with.

As for the I work for GM Know all and see all ideas. Share them if you can and if you can't you for your own sake you are better off not saying anything at all. The comments of "well what I am working on is great but I can not tell you" really mean little to most of us and if true only puts you in a bad way with GM. It is best that if you do wotk for GM and can say it all just don't say it. It is best for You GM and the rest.

I am not trying to say anything here to run you off or offend and I hope you understand where I am coming from. I for one do not see a need to ban here. Just work with us.

I just ask for you to show a little respect and you will find most here will give it back in kind. We have had people here much more anoying before but once they settle in with the group and connect things went very well.

Edited January 29, 2008 by hyperv6

[turbo200]

In the end I am all for inclusion. I was sort of afraid others had jumped on the wagon and were calling for your removal, and then we'd all dance around your fallen statue.....oh, wait a minute.

Do you think it's funny the I can compare you to an evil dictator? You go around shooting off, projecting all this malice and power-complexes.....to ordinary people who are fans. Do you know the definition of someone who is a fan? It means they like something, generally with all thier heart.

As I said though, I am willing to forgive and proceed with inclusion. You could make the argument that I should block you, and usually that's just what I do when I scroll right past your post after reading the first sentence, but I'd rather hear from you some of the time then not at all, and I've never done that to anyone, so why start with your [lame ass]. It's the same tone that I recognize is only aiming to set off fireworks. You are a destructionist force usually and your aims impede the general agenda of this forum for the progress of ideas and discourse surrounding everyone's favorite brands.

But at least this post was eloquent, and even-handed.

Ven, that is not a vendetta, we spoke of this possibility many times on MSN, I actually told you many options are on the table and moving Buick to a Chinese brand only was being discussed, I didn't say it to hurt you or threaten you but to remind you of that. Something has to give, to meet CAFE and CO2, yeah it was given in a tongue in cheek way, but it got your attention didn't it?

What should GM do to meet CAFE and CO2 regs, should it be Killing Zeta, Killing a Brand, Moving a Brand, offer no V8's etc, etc, there re many things on the table and many things being discussed to meet these issues head on, when I say GM is going to use Frog Farts to run engines, do you take that as Gospel too? Come on!

I don't have time for your posts or attitudes like yours, or at least the one you display here. You like to set fires to people's ambitions and desires, all to get off seemingly on riling up some average people on the same journey in life as you are.

So I make a call to you, earlier you said you thought this forum was for communicating and expressing ideas.....I call on you to ask yourself what ideas PCS brings to the table at C&G, and is he helping the cause.

Edited January 29, 2008 by turbo200

[Camino LS6]

Responses like the last few posts make it worthwhile to work as a member of the C&G staff.

Thanks guys, makes me proud of this place.

[Cory Wolfe]

The last two posts by Turbo and Hyper = Great.

PCS, if it weren't for your demeaner, I don't think anyone hrere would have a problem with what you post, including myself.

[wildcat]

Someone once said it takes no talent or ability to cut something. What does show knowledge and power is how to find a way to make something work. GM has, at the moment, 8 brands. Do the right thing and find a way for them to co-exist. Play on their strengths and heritage. (If there really are plans to get rid of one or more, then GM and big business talk out of both sides of their... uh, mouth... and I have no interest in them.)

Maybe there are a lot of options which GM is now considering. (Since GM can't seem to decide something and stick with it or figure out how to make anything work. What? Itsy-Bitsy Motors is planning a new RWD model, but GM is still "studying it" or has canceled plans. Yeah, right.) "Everything's on the table," as we so often hear in corporate-speak today. Well, GM's customers have options they can consider, too... like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chrysler, et al.

[Duncan]

Buick was the cornerstone and heart of GM and if that counts for nothing, then GM has its collective head up its ass. As was said, if GM can't save Buick (its heart), it can't save anything.

Ah. You've read my signature, then...

[Camino LS6]

Well folks, consider this: if nothing else, PCS has given us a great deal to consider and a window into the thinking of at least part of GM. I'd say that challenges us to come up with equally workable, but more palatable, ways to meet the new regulatory challenges faced by GM.

As for PCS and his faction, they now know with certainty that their plan will meet with extreme resistance in this market.

I see some value in both of those realities.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Wildcat how can I tell you information like that without losing my job? As it is now, I hint at plans that are going to happen soon, then when they are officially announced, I then say see there you go.

As for your insight I find many of your post read like a horoscope. Something bad is going to happen or something great is in the future but little substance. Your are very good at the non comment prediction. As for coming true much of what you have posted is either already true and posted elsewhere on the net or like the prediction Pontiacs death. Your not really sticking your neck out there as you have a 50% chance of being correct at the worse case.

Hyper, and even Custom himself, are pretty much repeating a message I've been saying for a while now: take what he says with a grain of salt. For every truth, there is a lie that goes with it. If he tells us everything he knows, he puts his job right on the line.

However, there is no excuse for Custom's behavior, which has steadily grew worse after his second return to C&G. Each post has grew more and more aggressive and overly defensive of GME's agenda for GMNA and GM as a whole. He's stepped on a lot of toes (including my own) and left a lot of them sore. No one provoked his behavior and/or the tone of his responses and there is no acceptable reasoning for it.

I see his sig and avatar are once again gone. Regardless if he makes a third return here, I hope he has realized that if GME's agenda for GMNA does pull through, GM will be losing so many loyal customers and enthusiasts in North America who have grew up around their products and that the effects would be devastating and long lasting. I hope that he has realized that GM cannot afford anything of the sort. We are the people that GM will have possibly have as customers for a lifetime. We care about the company and it's well being. We've defended the company when no one else would. Why alienate one of the most valuable resources a company could ask for? I'll reiterate this: it's not worth such a risk.

I harbor no hatred for Custom, however. There was a time which he added a bit of personality to the forums, which has sadly evaporated during his tenure here and has been replaced by an unwarranted attitude towards other members.

I wish Custom the best to him and his career at GME. But, in the end, I hope that his membership here at Cheers and Gears has taught him something very vital, something he didn't exactly realize before, about the company he works for.

Edited January 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Duncan]

Well folks, consider this: if nothing else, PCS has given us a great deal to consider and a window into the thinking of at least part of GM. I'd say that challenges us to come up with equally workable, but more palatable, ways to meet the new regulatory challenges faced by GM.

As for PCS and his faction, they now know with certainty that their plan will meet with extreme resistance in this market.

I see some value in both of those realities.

Well-said.

We'll start with what I'd call "public approval" of the ST and the Camaro. Buying those by the trainload should be a good start toward making GM realize there's more to the automotive market these days than front-drive, V6-powered, slush-o-matic boredom capsules.

As soon as the production model is unveiled (sometime this year, maybe?), I'll be putting in a deposit at one of the three local Chevy stores for a black Camaro SS with a six-speed. I'm no longer even going to consider other options, and my Mazda will be very nearly paid off by then.

And if GM's smart, they'll make the Camaro E85-compatible, too...hint, hint...

[Intrepidation]

Very passionate thread indeed, there's a lot to go through.

PCS - I do like you generally, outside of the forum on msn we have good discussions, however lately the way you're posts are worded they rub people the wrong way, including myself. When you go on a bout how much you hate Holden, and how Zeta, a platform many of us are excited about should die because it's from Holden and not GME and GME is the greatest thing to happen to GM and everything else sucks, yeah it bothers people.

Onto Zeta and CAFE. You, or anyone else, cannot sit there and tell me that with all of the vast resources and intelligent minds GM has at it's disposal that there is not a way to offer cars like the Impala, G8, Camaro, etc. and be able to meet CAFE. I refuse to believe that. You can't tell me that buy fitting more G8's and Impalas wit smaller engines and hybrid technology and have far fewer but still available V8's for those that want them, that it wouldn't help balance CAFE out.

When you consider the things Mercedes and BMW can do to help improve fuel economy and alternative energy, you're gonna tell me that GM can't do that either? All of this wondering what to do to meet CAFE regulations...Why not offer more 4 cylinder/6-speed powertrains? Why not offer the 2-mode hybrid system in cars and not just trucks where the fuel economy boost will be much greater? When will the Malibu, and Aura and others benefit from an advanced hybrid system instead of the mild one? Why not offer both systems, for budget minded, and for those who can afford the expensive one?

If some guy can take his Scion xB, make it RWD and stuff a Chevy V8 in it, than certainly GM can find a way to fit smaller powertrains into bigger cars, and hybrid drivetrains into big and small cars.

What about making the Zeta's E85 compatible while we're at it?

There's so many options to consider besides "f@#k it, kill Zeta even though many people are looking forward to it, and piss them off by replacing these cars with FWD cars. Who cares if we alienate a few thousand, hundred thousand people? When did that make a difference? When did giving people products they actually want make a difference? Let's kill a brand while we're at it. No one cares right?"

Edited January 29, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

OK, my turn.

I promise all concerned that, finances willing, I will be ordering a shiny new Pontiac G8 ST GXP with a manual as soon as humanly possible.

[Intrepidation]

My goal is to buy a Camaro and then a Challenger.

[Camino LS6]

Z and I were discussing some CAFE possibilities on AIM earlier today in which Zeta provided an advantage in the race to meet CAFE. I'll let him post the details, but with a little imagination it is easy to see how zeta can be turned from a liability into an asset as far as CAFE goes.

[VenSeattle]

It appears my promise will end like this... I'll probably purchase one more Buick before the brand is phased out in the US... Then it's time for me to move on... Mercedes or back to Infiniti?

[Camino LS6]

It appears my promise will end like this... I'll probably purchase one more Buick before the brand is phased out in the US... Then it's time for me to move on... Mercedes or back to Infiniti?

Let's hope that cooler heads prevail re. the fate of all GMNA brands.

[wildcat]

< sarcasm switch "ON" > Naw, let GM cut all the cherished brands they like. Let 'em get down to just Chevrolet, Saturn, and Cadillac. Then when their sales go nowhere fast with those three, what'll be left to cut? Each others throats Besides, I'd love to see Ren Center fall like the House of Usher and crush 'em all inside

And then somebody ( your choice ), while laying in the smoldering rubble, says, "Wow! I could've had a V-8!"

Edited January 29, 2008 by wildcat

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Let's hope that cooler heads prevail re. the fate of all GMNA brands.

I believe that they may finally win out this time. Call it a feeling.

[hyperv6]

Z and I were discussing some CAFE possibilities on AIM earlier today in which Zeta provided an advantage in the race to meet CAFE. I'll let him post the details, but with a little imagination it is easy to see how zeta can be turned from a liability into an asset as far as CAFE goes.

The way I see it Lutz has not given up on RWD. His comment have not made it a sure thing but I expect he is fighting for the Alpha.

The problem with Zeta is weight. If Alpha can be made expandable in wheel base and width it can pick up where the Zeta left off.

We would lose most V8 options or if there is they would be made smaller like a 4.7 V8 as Tom Wallac pointed out.

The plus side is these cars could still be good in size and give us a lighter better handling package. Collin Chapman showed us long ago if you can make it light you can make it fast and fun.

The CAFE is the averge so there will still be room for some larger cars. Where I see the most work being needed are the truck lines and Malibu size FWD cars as they are the Volume cars that need to improve the most.

I see the key as more composits and aluminum in the cars. Lutz has said the price of each car would grow $6,000 and I don't think he was speaking of just hybid technology but more expensive build materials.

The big key will be Unibody full size trucks and the increase of new smaller trucks. The small truck that nealry has faded away will be back on the front burner not like it has since the S-10 arrived.

I ponder if even a small truck could be added to the Alpha platform, unibody and all?

Edited January 29, 2008 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

Camino, I am not advocating any one of them, what I said is they are being discussed, and many many more too. I can't say all that is being discussed, but trust me there are a great many more.

Then when you post things that you know will upset users, don't do it with a big grin and tap dancing the big finale.

[hyperv6]

Let's hope that cooler heads prevail re. the fate of all GMNA brands.

Just trust Rick and Bob at this point as they have made few misakes compared to past leaders. We should be glad in this time of change we have them and a very empowered staff of engineers at GM now.

On the other hand I would hate to be Chrysler.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've said it before.... if the plans unfold like we've been told. My last new GM will be a CTS Coupe in Germany.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

The big key will be Unibody full size trucks and the increase of new smaller trucks. The small truck that nealry has faded away will be back on the front burner not like it has since the S-10 arrived.

I ponder if even a small truck could be added to the Alpha platform, unibody and all?

A unibody full-sized, or even compact, truck would be quite interesting to see. Jeep showed us years ago that a unibody truck can work with the Comanche in 1986. It was just as rugged as any other truck, too, and some models had quite an impressive payload rating closer to full-size trucks while being half their size. It's a wonder that, at least, other compact trucks didn't try the same formula.

Edited January 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[hyperv6]

A unibody full-sized, or even compact, truck would be quite interesting to see. Jeep showed us years ago that a unibody truck can work with the Comanche in 1986. It was just as rugged as any other truck, too, and some models had quite an impressive payload rating closer to full-size trucks while being half their size. It's a wonder that, at least, other compact trucks didn't try the same formula.

I think the full frame is stronger preception and the fact a full frame is cheaper to make?

I see a need on the full size one ton truck for a frame but in a half ton I can see it working today. We are way past the bent F100 trucks of the 60's in technology.

The only trick is to make it strong but still keep it light.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

< sarcasm switch "ON" > Naw, let GM cut all the cherished brands they like. Let 'em get down to just Chevrolet, Saturn, and Cadillac. Then when their sales go nowhere fast with those three, what'll be left to cut? Each others throats Besides, I'd love to see Ren Center fall like the House of Usher and crush 'em all inside

And then somebody ( your choice ), while laying in the smoldering rubble, says, "Wow! I could've had a V-8!"

The average transaction price on the Buick Enclave is $39,000.

You think GM would give up that? Not a Chance In Hell.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I think the full frame is stronger preception and the fact a full frame is cheaper to make?

Well, yes, the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" certainly plays its role in why the Comanche has been one of the very few trucks in automotive history to use unibody construction.

I see a need on the full size one ton truck for a frame but in a half ton I can see it working today. We are way past the bent F100 trucks of the 60's in technology.

The only trick is to make it strong but still keep it light.

Well, yeah, I wouldn't exactly see unibody construction working on trucks like the GMC TopKick/Chevrolet Kodiak, but it makes perfect sense on the popular half-ton models which wont see extremely high payloads or work conditions. But would having two separate platforms for essentially the same vehicle be cost effective?

This is an interesting idea. I can actually see it working quite well for a next-generation Silverado 1500 model. The key to make sure it can achieve the same tolerances and possess the same strengths that the current BOF Silverado 1500 does (which, if a top-end Comanche can outclass other compact trucks of its time in terms payload capacity, I don't see it being all that hard).

Edited January 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Duncan]

Well, yes, the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" certainly plays its role in why the Comanche has been one of the very few trucks in automotive history to use unibody construction.

Well, yeah, I wouldn't exactly see unibody construction working on trucks like the GMC TopKick/Chevrolet Kodiak, but it makes perfect sense on the popular half-ton models which wont see extremely high payloads or work conditions. But would having two separate platforms for essentially the same vehicle be cost effective?

This is an interesting idea. I can actually see it working quite well for a next-generation Silverado 1500 model. The key to make sure it can achieve the same tolerances and possess the same strengths that the current BOF Silverado does (which, if a top-end Comanche can outclass other compact trucks of its time in terms payload capacity, I don't see it being all that hard).

Ford's already doing that, in effect, since the F150 and the larger Super Duty don't share a common body. This then allows the Super Duty shell to be the basis for Ford's larger medium-duty models (up to F850).

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Ford's already doing that, in effect, since the F150 and the larger Super Duty don't share a common body. This then allows the Super Duty shell to be the basis for Ford's larger medium-duty models (up to F850).

Again, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." You know GM isn't complaining about the money it saves by having all of it's full-sized and heavy-duty trucks on one ultimately common platform.

But there are ways that GM can have a unibody Silverado 1500 and a BOF Silverado 3500 dually. Make them share a few common parts, sheetmetal, etc., etc. etc. If the NG Silverado half-ton does go the unibody route, I'd expect GM to lessen costs that way.

Edited January 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

Don't forget! :http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=22024

http://stjoemotorsports.com/RouteDealer.cf...ue_id=500437396

I haven't forgotten. In fact, I found another one on the local craigslist that was an even better deal.

But the timing won't work for either one.

[hyperv6]

I thought the Top kick and Kodiak were sold or being sold to Navistar.

I was just speaking of the one ton duelly.

[Camino LS6]

Wow! I give a hint about using zeta to benefit the CAFE numbers and you guys hone right in on the target!

Yes 1/2 ton pickups and SUVs should be the targets along with dumping a few other things like COL?Canyon and TB/Envoy.

I've started working up a zeta/CAFE game plan article/opinion piece, but by the time I get it done, you guys will have figured it all out already.

Bottom line: the biggest problem for GM meeting CAFE isn't zeta, but the trucks and SUVs.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I thought the Top kick and Kodiak were sold or being sold to Navistar.

They are. What I meant was that I couldn't see unibody construction working of trucks of that caliber (e.g. Ford F-550, etc.), above that of a standard half-ton full-size pickup which is what more commonly sells.

I was just speaking of the one ton duelly.

Yes, I know. I was just using an example from the far end of the spectrum of trucks GM currently makes at the moment.

[Chazman]

The problem with Zeta is weight. If Alpha can be made expandable in wheel base and width it can pick up where the Zeta left off.

I'm looking forward to Alpha as well. Currently, it's not engineered to take a V8. We'll see what may happen in the future.

As far as Zeta, there may be all sorts of reasons for it's demise, but weight has got to be one of them. Several hundred thousand 2 ton sedans just don't help GM's CAFE efforts. In fact a two ton Camaro won't help much either. I sure hope we'll get a smaller, lighter one off of Alpha, because I just can't see the 5th gen lasting too long with CAFE and no platform-mates to share costs with.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Chazman