NY 2008 Preview: Production Pontiac ST pickup to appear

[Satty]

Everyone thought the GTO was going to be a huge success. Then when it flopped and the added power and hood scoops, people thought sales would pick up. Oops.

[Intrepidation]

Everyone thought the GTO was going to be a huge success. Then when it flopped and the added power and hood scoops, people thought sales would pick up. Oops.

Yeah but the the GTO suffered from price gouging, and the fact that it didn't look like many people thought a GTO should look like. The ST looks like what a Pontiac El Camino should look like, and as long as they don't gouge the prices it shouldn't meet the same fate.

[Camino LS6]

The GTO didn't flop, but it could have and should have done better. The deck was stacked against it in many ways, so much so that if you didn't drive one, you would never have known how great it actually was as a car. Too many people decided it wasn't "what a GTO should be" without taking that all important drive.

The ST won't suffer from that affliction. In everything but name it is an El Camino.

And the best one yet built on top of that.

[Drew Dowdell]

The GTO was a Firebird in a tux.

The ST is an El Camino in a tux.... but the mullet stays.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Yeah but the the GTO suffered from price gouging, and the fact that it didn't look like many people thought a GTO should look like. The ST looks like what a Pontiac El Camino should look like, and as long as they don't gouge the prices it shouldn't meet the same fate.

Bolded so that the powers to be at GM that read our posts can see the "light at the end of the tunnel" on how to make the G8 sedan, G8 ST, and hopefully the G8 Sportwagon a sales success in the US. GM, you'd do best to reign in on your Pontiac dealers if you want the G8 launch and continued sales to do well.

[cletus8269]

lets not forget that they didnt promise the GTO for long anyway. the monaro was getting the axe so thats why it got "canceled" the only way it "failed" was sales volume, until they started marketing them in the 25 range where it belonged that is. still wish i could have got an 06.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Bolded so that the powers to be at GM that read our posts can see the "light at the end of the tunnel" on how to make the G8 sedan, G8 ST, and hopefully the G8 Sportwagon a sales success in the US. GM, you'd do best to reign in on your Pontiac dealers if you want the G8 launch and continued sales to do well.

Maybe the better product that's already in the showrooms will help remedy this..

I think the reason Pontiac dealers were gouging is because they were starving for something to sell. Now that they have the Solstice well established, a decent G6, a new Vibe, a white hot and profit crusted Enclave, quick selling Acadia and the hybrid/non hybrid 900s, things will be a bit better balanced.

[aaaantoine]

1. Set up email address A.

2. Set up email address B.

3. Set up email address A to forward all incoming emails to GM and email address B.

4. Set up email address B to forward all incoming emails to GM and email address A.

5. Email you message to either email address A or B.

Voila! GM will now receive 10,000 emails an hour expressing your concerns. Don't ask me how I know this.

Don't forget the part where you use a public computer and register these email addresses with fake information, so as to slow down your arrest for committing a denial-of-service attack.

[sciguy_0504]

Besides the powertrain, it does nothing for me. The styling is bland, it's just the same as the G8 but with 2 doors and a small bed. I'd rather the money be spent on a true mid-size RWD car for Pontiac.

And I wouldn't be comparing it to the Ridgeline. At least that has some utility to it.

[turbo200]

A quick check in my area reveals all GTOs from 2006 priced at 24,000 and above. A car that was selling at 29k new commonly, three years after intro [i think '06 may have been the MY GTO even began selling before it was supposed to] to be holding the line like that, and it's a failure.

Pontiac G8 ST is simply a cool car. In that sense, yeah it's gonna compare to Solstice, and it'll even be in the price range of the GXP. But the sport truck will have more cargo carrying capacity, less of a chick magnet appeal and more of a badass appeal, and of course tons of power. So it may end up stealing or drawing some buyers from the Solstice, but only the factor of "coolness" and uniqueness. The sport truck will appeal to an older audience as well as it will appeal to a younger audience drawn to the unique appeal of a "V8 pickup car". And it will gain the reputation the GTO caught, which was of an under the radar high performance vehicle.

Based on what the car has to offer, based on the package alone, it's ludicrous to say Pontiac won't find 10k buyers per year. Now if its marketed right, it will also help elevate Pontiac as a brand. The G8 is a sport sedan offering something no other sport sedan has in its price range, true balance and handling prowess. The performance is there where other sedans in its price range can't claim, along with offering truly commodious passenger space, good looks, a great price, and kick ass powertrain options.

The sport truck will benefit from the G8's limelight. It's only left to be seen how effectively the G8 is cast into that light.

Let's go back a little now and remember why the GTO "failed". GTO was priced out of the range of those average Pontiac buyers [teens, young 20's, 30's] looking at a 2 door coupe. It wasn't practical [13 cubic foot trunk]. And it's style was nothing like what Pontiac buyers associated Pontiac with. In fact when it came to style, there really wasn't anything anybody could directly compare it to. It wasn't a Pontiac [in the grand tradition of overtly styled outrageous Pontiac coupes of the '90's, think Grand Am, Firebrid, etc]. And It sure as hell wasn't an import. It wasn't modern, compared to the G35, 3-series coupe, that were all comparably priced. And it had to live in the shadow of a barely-introduced, red-hot famous retro Mustang.

Now this serves a purpose because the sport truck is going to be inexpensive. According to quotes, it'll be priced cheaper than the sedan. As for fuel efficiency, it will be at least as efficient or perhaps moreso than the sedan, given it is MUCH LIGHTER. With all that extra equipment, glass, door frames, it has to be. I don't know where you're basing the curb weight off of empowah, or if that just came off the G8 sedan. I wouldn't be surprised to see it that high, but still that'll be not bad. And the fuel efficiency is there.

So it's going to appeal to the practical mindset as well. But the bottom line big chunk of its appeal will be to performance buyers looking for something unconventional. Hasn't even the success of the SSR proven that exists [yes, the SSR was successful for a short while, and that was a complex, overpriced, uncapable, nice looking roadster that nobody asked for]? I'm sure there is a market for that.

Next is convining them there is a market for the sport wagon.

Edited January 28, 2008 by turbo200

[Z-06]

If you look at the shape of things of why Dodge Magnum failed is because:

1. They made it as a volume vehicle, and thus expected volume sales.

2. Not much was advertised.

A small limited quantity of Wagons (~10,000) along with ST and Sedan to annual sales of 60-65K is not impossible.

That will give Pontiac three vehicles in their helm, which will be niche enough to carve a following out of the Zetas.

[turbo200]

the Magnum is also rather ugly, overdone really. It's impact/style got tired quickly is what I'm saying. Once enough of the base versions started running around, it became more of an eyesore. And it's a Dodge! Dodge's are famous around the country for being unreliable, unless you're a Dodge fan, which I mean no offense to you. The buyer who wanted the instant satisfaction of a gotta have vehicle jumped on it. After that, serious buyers, not impulse buyers, went elsewhere.

I'm really just adding reasons to your post. Basing a business case for a limited volume G8 sport wagon on the Magnum doesn't make all that much sense. The sport wagon is more tasteful and yet more modern. It's aggressive, yet conservative. From what I know of the Magnum, given sightlines and such, it wasn't even practical as a wagon alternative for buyers shopping those segments...

Edited January 28, 2008 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

I loved the magnum from the outside. I loved the hemi powertrain. What scared me away was the horrid interior.

I could totally see myself getting a Pontiac Safari. After the 2009 CTS Coupe, my next choice would be a 9-3 SportCombi Aero.

You all are going to be REALLY surprised at what my next car is for the remainder of my stay in the U.S. :AH-HA_wink:

No tattling Camino!

[Z-06]

I agree with you completely. As I had mentioned earlier, the real reason it seems like GME wants Zeta wagon to be killed is because EPII wagon is a go for Aura.

If GM can justify killing of Zeta wagon for lack of volume, the same should apply to EPII volume regardless of which wheels drive it. Tell me which of the the FWD POS offer wagon version of their sedan, other than Mazda6 which seems to be inclined to killing it in the next iteration.

[hyperv6]

Wasn't the action lifestyle how they marketed the Pontiac Aztek? I love when History repeats itself.

If your wanting us to think your as insightful as you want us to believe than you know this statment is full of crap.

The Aztec fail due to the angry appliance look and nothing more. I knew from day one as did most here the styling was a wreck.

But I can say I never heard anyone say it was dull and boring in the styling department.

We all sit here and cry for GM to go into markets with new and different idea's to gain market share or new trends. Well boys we have one here. For all the investment it is a low risk deal and if it works great and job well done GM. IF this project fails GM is not out much as it has already done most of the investing in Austrailia.

Also the future is going to be small trucks again as there is and will be a renewed intrest in this market. Between fuel cost and CAFE this market has to be explored again.

We will see things in the next ten years that we never though they would do. The G8 ST would be a good test to see the public reaction to a car/truck hybrid again. We don't know how the market will recieve it as no one here really has done this for years.

For GM not to bring this car is would be a failure to try at what we all ask them to do. Besides till Pontiac is sorted out one way or another one more vehicle in the show room is not going to hurt.

This will give GM an idea if this kind of concept merit and it is worth more investment in the future. Better this now on the cheap vs some expensive failed experiment later.

Bottom line is GM will sell all they bring in since they are not going to do it in large numbers. It will tell them what they need to know. It was a simple no brainer for Lutz for the dollar exchange rate that has been out of control of late.

Edited January 28, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

If your wanting us to think your as insightful as you want us to believe than you know this statment is full of crap.

The Aztec fail due to the angry appliance look and nothing more. I knew from day one as did most here the styling was a wreck.

But I can say I never heard anyone say it was dull and boring in the styling department.

We all sit here and cry for GM to go into markets with new and different idea's to gain market share or new trends. Well boys we have one here. For all the investment it is a low risk deal and if it works great and job well done GM. IF this project fails GM is not out much as it has already done most of the investing in Austrailia.

Also the future is going to be small trucks again as there is and will be a renewed intrest in this market. Between fuel cost and CAFE this market has to be explored again.

We will see things in the next ten years that we never though they would do. The G8 ST would be a good test to see the public reaction to a car/truck hybrid again. We don't know how the market will recieve it as no one here really has done this for years.

For GM not to bring this car is would be a failure to try at what we all ask them to do. Besides till Pontiac is sorted out one way or another one more vehicle in the show room is not going to hurt.

This will give GM an idea if this kind of concept merit and it is worth more investment in the future. Better this now on the cheap vs some expensive failed experiment later.

Bottom line is GM will sell all they bring in since they are not going to do it in large numbers. It will tell them what they need to know. It was a simple no brainer for Lutz for the dollar exchange rate that has been out of control of late.

Excellent post Hyper!

[BigPontiac]

the Magnum is also rather ugly, overdone really. It's impact/style got tired quickly is what I'm saying. Once enough of the base versions started running around, it became more of an eyesore. And it's a Dodge! Dodge's are famous around the country for being unreliable, unless you're a Dodge fan, which I mean no offense to you. The buyer who wanted the instant satisfaction of a gotta have vehicle jumped on it. After that, serious buyers, not impulse buyers, went elsewhere.

I'm really just adding reasons to your post. Basing a business case for a limited volume G8 sport wagon on the Magnum doesn't make all that much sense. The sport wagon is more tasteful and yet more modern. It's aggressive, yet conservative. From what I know of the Magnum, given sightlines and such, it wasn't even practical as a wagon alternative for buyers shopping those segments...

I'll just point out an obvious failing of the Magnum -- the sloping rear roof line compromised the useabilty of the cargo area. Americans spend ever increasing millions of dollars a year on their dogs and some (like me) would expect their dog to be able to fit in the cargo area of a wagon. My 85lb German Shepherd couldn't even sit in the cargo area of a Magnum with the hatch closed -- no head room.

In contrast, the Subaru Legacy -- "the best selling wagon in America" (from their ads) -- offers a cargo area that can hold my dog (actually 2), then has dealer installed accessories geared toward dog owners such as pet barrier, rubber floor cover, bumper cover, etc. GM has yet to get a clue about this market -- and the Saab SportCombi and Saturn Vue clearly demonstrate this as both have barely useable cargo areas.

[Camino LS6]

I'll just point out an obvious failing of the Magnum -- the sloping rear roof line compromised the useabilty of the cargo area. Americans spend ever increasing millions of dollars a year on their dogs and some (like me) would expect their dog to be able to fit in the cargo area of a wagon. My 85lb German Shepherd couldn't even sit in the cargo area of a Magnum with the hatch closed -- no head room.

In contrast, the Subaru Legacy -- "the best selling wagon in America" (from their ads) -- offers a cargo area that can hold my dog (actually 2), then has dealer installed accessories geared toward dog owners such as pet barrier, rubber floor cover, bumper cover, etc. GM has yet to get a clue about this market -- and the Saab SportCombi and Saturn Vue clearly demonstrate this as both have barely useable cargo areas.

I rejected the Magnum for the exact same reason - Zora and Arkus would never fit (even one at a time).

[Duncan]

I rejected the Magnum for the exact same reason - Zora and Arkus would never fit (even one at a time).

Heh - hopefully you've got cats named Mitchell and Cole, right?

[gm4life]

Mitchell, Cole, Zora and Arkus were all amazing and legend in there own right.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Camino, I gotta tell you ever since this news has broken, I can't stop thinking about the G8 ST. I just got rid of a 2-seater roadster <SKY> because of it's limited usefulness with family-hauling duties, so buying another 2-seater vehicle should really be off my radar. But, it does have a useable bed and I could use it as my daily driver (it would be nice if the G8 ST came equipped with a passenger deactivation switch like the Sonoma/S10s had so I could install Justin's car seat in it without concerns). Now if I could find an older but safe & reliable family car to use, maybe the G8 ST could work out for me. I'd much rather have the G8 Sportwagon though

[SuperSport623]

im trying to figure out if theres anyway i can swing an ST.... id buy this over a camaro... with a V8 and a 6 speed, this should be lighter in weight, and hopefully cheaper... besides... the backseat in a camaro is useless, so why not rock a bed i can haul my dirtbikes in?

[Camino LS6]

Camino, I gotta tell you ever since this news has broken, I can't stop thinking about the G8 ST. I just got rid of a 2-seater roadster <SKY> because of it's limited usefulness with family-hauling duties, so buying another 2-seater vehicle should really be off my radar. But, it does have a useable bed and I could use it as my daily driver (it would be nice if the G8 ST came equipped with a passenger deactivation switch like the Sonoma/S10s had so I could install Justin's car seat in it without concerns). Now if I could find an older but safe & reliable family car to use, maybe the G8 ST could work out for me. I'd much rather have the G8 Sportwagon though

Wait and see what happens with the GMC, you might get everything you want from that one, if they build it.

[Camino LS6]

im trying to figure out if theres anyway i can swing an ST.... id buy this over a camaro... with a V8 and a 6 speed, this should be lighter in weight, and hopefully cheaper... besides... the backseat in a camaro is useless, so why not rock a bed i can haul my dirtbikes in?

Obviously you get it - unlike some.

[regfootball]

Magnum- look grew tired and ugglee. most folks thought it had a hemi and bad gas mileage. interior was terrible and claustrophobic. market got flooded with 2.7l rentals. they never told the public it could be had with AWD. Sloped roof and too high load floor compromised cargo ability. Long wheelbase made it look unwieldy. otherwise, great car.

Mazda6 wagon- never was advertised. Some folks sought them out. But their blandness never helped their cause. the notchback had nearly the same cargo capacity.

Sportcombi-tiny cargo area.

G8 wagon may also suffer from small cargo area as the roof tapers down in the back as well. But at least the look is more mainstream than the magnum hearse.

Aura wagon should not preclude bringing over 10k G8 sportwagons.

G8 ST and SW are basically already desgined and in the hopper. For pontiac to slap the grille on and send a few over is no risk. This is a low risk, high reward ENDEAVOR. Because they all have the G8 tag, it is the same 'model' and prob saves them cert fees.

ANyone who would poopoo this is just a sour grapes curmedgeon.

Edited January 29, 2008 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

Heh - hopefully you've got cats named Mitchell and Cole, right?

Cats and Alaskan Malamutes don't mix.

So, no. No cats.

[SuperSport623]

when i was thinking of getting a new dog, i was considering naming it Delorean, Yenko or Smokey (yunick)

[thegriffon]

Because the Ute and Sportwagon have a different body structure, certain tests would have to be re-run (especially rollover, side impact …). If the exhaust is unchanged then emissions would not be a problem, and they might skate by front impact, especially if Australian data is similar for each variant.

Although sales of the Magnum dropped off after the Charger was introduced the sales split is still 80:20, probably better than a large coupe could manage, and well worth the effort. I have a feeling certain people are deliberately misleading the strategy board by only quoting sales figures for vehicles such as the 5-series wagon, which with limited variants has very few sales at all. The V70 is more popular than either the S60 or S80 (not even counting the XC70 version), and GM certainly finds it worthwhile to homologate the 9-3 and 9-5 wagons, despite very low sales of each. The unfavorable exchange rate is no excuse since the wagon could command higher margins, improving profitability. Although both the Astra and G8 will probably lose money on an activity cost basis, overall they may make money as the incremental cost of building an additional x number of vehicles for the US market may be much lower, due to the better capacity utilization in Antwerp and Elizabeth.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Because the Ute and Sportwagon have a different body structure, certain tests would have to be re-run (especially rollover, side impact …). If the exhaust is unchanged then emissions would not be a problem, and they might skate by front impact, especially if Australian data is similar for each variant.

Although sales of the Magnum dropped off after the Charger was introduced the sales split is still 80:20, probably better than a large coupe could manage, and well worth the effort. I have a feeling certain people are deliberately misleading the strategy board by only quoting sales figures for vehicles such as the 5-series wagon, which with limited variants has very few sales at all. The V70 is more popular than either the S60 or S80 (not even counting the XC70 version), and GM certainly finds it worthwhile to homologate the 9-3 and 9-5 wagons, despite very low sales of each. The unfavorable exchange rate is no excuse since the wagon could command higher margins, improving profitability. Although both the Astra and G8 will probably lose money on an activity cost basis, overall they may make money as the incremental cost of building an additional x number of vehicles for the US market may be much lower, due to the better capacity utilization in Antwerp and Elizabeth.

But surely they're (the strategy board) not that blind...

I still think something else is up with the sport wagon. I'm not sure what, but I don't think it was nixed just because "other wagons don't sell" Uncle Bob is just good at politics.

[hyperv6]

But surely they're (the strategy board) not that blind...

I still think something else is up with the sport wagon. I'm not sure what, but I don't think it was nixed just because "other wagons don't sell" Uncle Bob is just good at politics.

Could there be more effort to sell a CTS wagon vs a Pontiac. With sales uncertin in Europe it is always good to know they can dump some of the overflow in NA.

Holden will sell enough wagons to cover the expenses for their car but the Cadillac wagon may have a tougher sell and need more than one market to make it.

[Camino LS6]

Could there be more effort to sell a CTS wagon vs a Pontiac. With sales uncertin in Europe it is always good to know they can dump some of the overflow in NA.

Holden will sell enough wagons to cover the expenses for their car but the Cadillac wagon may have a tougher sell and need more than one market to make it.

That's not a bad bit of reasoning there, Hyper.

[GMTruckGuy74]

While I'm sure I would love the look of the CTS wagon and want one too, I know for sure it would be priced too far out of the price range I need to be in. And on Hyper's reasoning, shouldn't GM cancel the G8 sedan too becuase it will steal sales of the new CTS???

[Camino LS6]

Wagons are a tougher sell right now than sedans generally, so the G8 sedan really doesn't impact the CTS sedan much if at all. A G8 sportwagon might have some impact on the CTS wagon though.

[Intrepidation]

I'm still sad the Magnum is being discontinued. I don't see the point. Of course it's a slower seller than the Charger, because this is American, and we most people would rather have their gas sucking SUVs and CUVs even though they don't really need them.

Besides, if they are still producing the 300 Touring for the European market, the tooling is still all there. If the Touring is made at a different plant (I can't remember), make the Magnum in that plant, it can be a lower volume model.

Sure, it's lower roof compromises some cargo area, but it still holds a lot more than the Charger or comparable sedan. Plus the hatch is hinged to allow bigger objects to get in it. CMG picture in the other thread showed it had no problem fitting large objects into it.

Interior I never cared for but I could easily live with it, plus the refresh, that lasted for about half a year, fixed my complaints inside.

I personally love the magnum and have since it came out, my mom actually wanted one too (if only we could afford one). Someday I want to pick up a 3.5 AWD model for family/stuff hauling. It should stick around and the Sportwagon should come here, there's a niche for them, ask Subaru and Volvo.

[Camino LS6]

I really can't disagree with you, Dodgefan.

[thegriffon]

The 300 Touring may be made in Austria.

[hyperv6]

While I'm sure I would love the look of the CTS wagon and want one too, I know for sure it would be priced too far out of the price range I need to be in. And on Hyper's reasoning, shouldn't GM cancel the G8 sedan too becuase it will steal sales of the new CTS???

The way I look at it. The sedans will sell as Pontiac has a limited number at a very cheap proce. the only car that sells in larger quanites are sedans. Wagons and Coupe have become the lesser seller.

GM should not have a problem moving a CTS and G8 sedan but there are only so many people who want a wagon.

With a mini Van or small SUV compared to a wagon. You get more utility and space, more passenger room at many times the same or lower price. Americans want untility and don't care so much for the car comforts or better styling of a wagon over a Minivan.

Now in Europe it is the oppisite. they want the wagon in many more cases. They like the drive more than the below the floor storage.

Lets face it the Magnum had little untility over my GP. I can carry a 9 ft ladder in my GP with the trnck shut at 140 MPH. While the Magnum can carry a little more it is not as much as a SUV or Minivan.

My gut says GM would have liked to bring in the G8 sport wagon but they may have had a limited amount of cars they could afford to bring in. They may have thought the ST had a better chance at selling or they just wanted to test the market since the Magnum already showed the market for that car would bear only 30-40K units a year. Either way I expect there was a good reason for them not to due it as knowing Lutz he would have fought not to kill the wagon if he had a good reason not to.

I also figure the CTS will start not much more then the G8 would have and to reach good numbers the caddy needs as little compitition as possible from with in GM. Besides most wagons in this market are upscale cars that the CTS would be better suited to challange.

Also once you factror in the value of the dollar and that the Caddy may be built here and not be imported.

Anyway that is just my guess but either way GM I am sure had a good unknown reason to use for not doing it right now. Future plans may be at play?

Edited January 30, 2008 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

Wagons are a tougher sell right now than sedans generally, so the G8 sedan really doesn't impact the CTS sedan much if at all. A G8 sportwagon might have some impact on the CTS wagon though.

you mean the CTS Maxx?

Ugly and expensive. The G8 wagon is much nicer!

[Camino LS6]

you mean the CTS Maxx?

Ugly and expensive. The G8 wagon is much nicer!

I'm with you Reg, but I can see how the CTS wagon could have been a factor for the beancounters.

[BigPontiac]

The way I look at it. The sedans will sell as Pontiac has a limited number at a very cheap proce. the only car that sells in larger quanites are sedans. Wagons and Coupe have become the lesser seller.

GM should not have a problem moving a CTS and G8 sedan but there are only so many people who want a wagon.

With a mini Van or small SUV compared to a wagon. You get more utility and space, more passenger room at many times the same or lower price. Americans want untility and don't care so much for the car comforts or better styling of a wagon over a Minivan.

Now in Europe it is the oppisite. they want the wagon in many more cases. They like the drive more than the below the floor storage.

Lets face it the Magnum had little untility over my GP. I can carry a 9 ft ladder in my GP with the trnck shut at 140 MPH. While the Magnum can carry a little more it is not as much as a SUV or Minivan.

My gut says GM would have liked to bring in the G8 sport wagon but they may have had a limited amount of cars they could afford to bring in. They may have thought the ST had a better chance at selling or they just wanted to test the market since the Magnum already showed the market for that car would bear only 30-40K units a year. Either way I expect there was a good reason for them not to due it as knowing Lutz he would have fought not to kill the wagon if he had a good reason not to.

I also figure the CTS will start not much more then the G8 would have and to reach good numbers the caddy needs as little compitition as possible from with in GM. Besides most wagons in this market are upscale cars that the CTS would be better suited to challange.

Also once you factror in the value of the dollar and that the Caddy may be built here and not be imported.

Anyway that is just my guess but either way GM I am sure had a good unknown reason to use for not doing it right now. Future plans may be at play?

I'm going to disagree. Subaru sold 60K Outbacks in 2006, a subset of their overall Legacy model sales. Subaru also sells well on the East Coast, or at least New England...one of those markets where GM wants to improve their sales. Volvo wagons are also very strong in this region...just like cars with manual transmissions.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator is certainly not a successful strategy to exploit new market segments. Michigan is not necessarily representative of the buying desires of the rest of the U.S. GMs product planners should get out more.

[turbo200]

totally agree completely BIgPontiac. GM product planners lack the pulse on what's going on this country...outside the Midwest, it's what's kept them offering trashy interiors and unfinished cars like the GP and Impala for so long [by this I mean the designs are unfinished].

Edited January 31, 2008 by turbo200

[regfootball]

I'm going to disagree. Subaru sold 60K Outbacks in 2006, a subset of their overall Legacy model sales. Subaru also sells well on the East Coast, or at least New England...one of those markets where GM wants to improve their sales. Volvo wagons are also very strong in this region...just like cars with manual transmissions.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator is certainly not a successful strategy to exploit new market segments. Michigan is not necessarily representative of the buying desires of the rest of the U.S. GMs product planners should get out more.

one caveat. subies and volvos are AWD mostly. GM was shortshighted and G8 will not appear to have AWD or manual trans.

[Camino LS6]

one caveat. subies and volvos are AWD mostly. GM was shortshighted and G8 will not appear to have AWD or manual trans.

AWD is out AFAIK, but G8 will get a manual for the '09 models.

[turbo200]

the point is those wagons appeal to upscale buyers.....on the east coast, truly wealthy people....people GM has big problems appealing to. it's not about AWD only with them...it's about safety record [and yes AWD does have to do with that], quality, brand recognition, style....

[Duncan]

Mazda6 wagon- never was advertised. Some folks sought them out. But their blandness never helped their cause. the notchback had nearly the same cargo capacity.

G8 ST and SW are basically already desgined and in the hopper. For pontiac to slap the grille on and send a few over is no risk. This is a low risk, high reward ENDEAVOR. Because they all have the G8 tag, it is the same 'model' and prob saves them cert fees.

ANyone who would poopoo this is just a sour grapes curmedgeon.

Your Mazda 6 example is perfect. They said, "why not" and brought over a few thousand each year. Same for the 6 hatchback, which I didn't think was even on the radar for this continent, but it's still available.

Pontiac's image is similar to Mazda's - sporty, but attainable. There aren't enough wagons in that category these days.

Excellent analysis of the Magnum's marketing, by the way.

[hyperv6]

I'm going to disagree. Subaru sold 60K Outbacks in 2006, a subset of their overall Legacy model sales. Subaru also sells well on the East Coast, or at least New England...one of those markets where GM wants to improve their sales. Volvo wagons are also very strong in this region...just like cars with manual transmissions.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator is certainly not a successful strategy to exploit new market segments. Michigan is not necessarily representative of the buying desires of the rest of the U.S. GMs product planners should get out more.

60,000 Subarus are not much compared to like priced minivans of crossovers. Almost all wagons sold are either really cheap small imports or low to mid end luxury Euo wagons. Most sell in the single thousands of units at $40,000 or more.

Wagons appeal is very limited to the point that most mid priced wagons have been removed. The Cavailer, Saturn many of the Ford and Chrysler models have all been removed from the market. A good reason is they were not making money on the limited number.

We see more of these cars from Benz, BMW and Volvo because they all sell them in their home countries and can be sent here in limited numbers because they can be sold at a price high enough to make a buck.

GM has to sell cars that appeal more than the East Coast and New England as those regions do not represent the buyers in the rest of the market. GM knows this as they do get out often.

A Cadillac would sell at a price that would help make it more profiable just as the Volvo or like model. Also being built here vs down under with the dollar as it is will help the bottom line.

At least at this point the ST is a no brainer as who else makes or sells a vehilcle like this in the States? THere is no compitition as of yet. There has to be something to this as even Ford has long condsidered the same for their ute and not their wagon. I have even seen the Fords in the States testing on Interstate 77.

We as enthusiast have to take a step back and understand we are the minority here and the average buyer in this country do not care for wagons or manual trannys outside perfromance cars. Believe me I would love to see the G8 Sport wagon in a 6 speed manual but I would have a hard time finding a large number of non car entusiast who would also want one.

Too many cry GM should make more manual tranny cars but the truth is in many cases how many would they really sell? Only something like 6-8% of all vehicles are manual today and the demand has gone down each year.

I see the same for the wagon, if it is done with the right car it can make money and be sold in small numbers here. The G8 and CTS are the to best shots we have at selling this kind of a car. Between the two the CTS is the best to do the job right now unless GM has somthing they have not hinted at yet.

The bottom line people like their trucks, SUVs, MiniVans and Crossovers. These are not the same people who would drop these vehicles to buy a wagon. It is not a AWD thing it is a space, features and sitting up high thing they like. Wagons just don't offer much more than s Sedan with a folding back seat.

I agree with you on this is a cool vehicle and would love to see it, but I also keep an understanding the limited nature of this class.

Edited February 1, 2008 by hyperv6

[BigPontiac]

60,000 Subarus are not much compared to like priced minivans of crossovers. Almost all wagons sold are either really cheap small imports or low to mid end luxury Euo wagons. Most sell in the single thousands of units at $40,000 or more.

Wagons appeal is very limited to the point that most mid priced wagons have been removed. The Cavailer, Saturn many of the Ford and Chrysler models have all been removed from the market. A good reason is they were not making money on the limited number.

We see more of these cars from Benz, BMW and Volvo because they all sell them in their home countries and can be sent here in limited numbers because they can be sold at a price high enough to make a buck.

GM has to sell cars that appeal more than the East Coast and New England as those regions do not represent the buyers in the rest of the market. GM knows this as they do get out often.

A Cadillac would sell at a price that would help make it more profiable just as the Volvo or like model. Also being built here vs down under with the dollar as it is will help the bottom line.

At least at this point the ST is a no brainer as who else makes or sells a vehilcle like this in the States? THere is no compitition as of yet. There has to be something to this as even Ford has long condsidered the same for their ute and not their wagon. I have even seen the Fords in the States testing on Interstate 77.

We as enthusiast have to take a step back and understand we are the minority here and the average buyer in this country do not care for wagons or manual trannys outside perfromance cars. Believe me I would love to see the G8 Sport wagon in a 6 speed manual but I would have a hard time finding a large number of non car entusiast who would also want one.

Too many cry GM should make more manual tranny cars but the truth is in many cases how many would they really sell? Only something like 6-8% of all vehicles are manual today and the demand has gone down each year.

I see the same for the wagon, if it is done with the right car it can make money and be sold in small numbers here. The G8 and CTS are the to best shots we have at selling this kind of a car. Between the two the CTS is the best to do the job right now unless GM has somthing they have not hinted at yet.

The bottom line people like their trucks, SUVs, MiniVans and Crossovers. These are not the same people who would drop these vehicles to buy a wagon. It is not a AWD thing it is a space, features and sitting up high thing they like. Wagons just don't offer much more than s Sedan with a folding back seat.

I agree with you on this is a cool vehicle and would love to see it, but I also keep an understanding the limited nature of this class.

So we have a niche brand, Pontiac. It is expected to sell to targeted markets and low volumes. The targeted market is the enthusiast. The expected annual North American volume for the G8 sedan is roughly 50k units/yr. The wagon and ute bodystyles have already been engineered with a variety of powertrain and transmission options for the Australian market. Adapting them to the North American market is an incremental cost. Selling 5k wagons in North America would seem reasonable and would add 10% to the overall G8 sales volumes. BMW seems to have no problem selling products to enthusiasts -- maybe they're just better at understanding what products their potential customers want?

If GM is getting out to the North East, maybe they should stop by the Harvard Business School and talk to Clayton Christensen about "Disruptive Innovation Theory" and maybe they might learn how to seek out untapped markets.

As for the "no one buys xxx" argument, how can GM know what customers want when they rely on dealers to act as the voice of the customer? Instead of limiting customer choices, maybe GM should leverage technology to improve a customer's ability to custom order the vehicle they want instead of choosing from dealer stock, which again generally reflects a lowest common denominator approach. Web technology combined with RFID and webcams in the manufacturing plant could actually be packaged as a high touch customer order experience and used as a market differentiating capability to simultaneously give customers the configuration they want and reduce dealer inventory. Much like Toyota discovered with fullsize pickup buyers, "enthusiasts" want what they want and are generally willing to wait or pay a premium to get it. As GM prices the Cadillac CTS with a manual transmission at a discount to the automatic, it clearly shows their thinking still reflects they believe buyers choose the manual transmission for cost reasons, which is completely false.

But given the fact GM can't even get EDS and IBM to play well together on building internals systems and outsourced most of their customer web properties offshore, I guess I shouldn't expect much.

Edited February 1, 2008 by BigPontiac

[GMTruckGuy74]

Good post BigPontiac.. it's nice to see another person that is not "just accepting" GM's decision not to offer the G8 Sportswagon along with the G8 ST launch. I'd say 5k of Pontiac G8 Sportswagon sales are better than 5k given to another manufacturer that does offer a wagon. Lately I've been talking to people that have purchased a new '08 CTS. Most of them are coming out of foreign cars, and some are even coming out of SUVs. Wouldn't it be better for Pontiac to try to sell the G8 Sportswagon rather give the sales over to someone else? Especially since PCS has consistently stated that the G8 is likely to have a 2-year run anyway? I just can't understand all of you who are accepting this and actually covering for GM! Regardless, I will continue to state my desire to have a G8 Sportswagon (and yes, I'd be coming out of a SUV for s sedan-based wagon!). And realize there are those of us that would like a wagon but can't afford one that's priced over $35k... meaning the CTS wagon may be great but not on many consumer's shopping lists.

[hyperv6]

So we have a niche brand, Pontiac. It is expected to sell to targeted markets and low volumes. The targeted market is the enthusiast. The expected annual North American volume for the G8 sedan is roughly 50k units/yr. The wagon and ute bodystyles have already been engineered with a variety of powertrain and transmission options for the Australian market. Adapting them to the North American market is an incremental cost. Selling 5k wagons in North America would seem reasonable and would add 10% to the overall G8 sales volumes. BMW seems to have no problem selling products to enthusiasts -- maybe they're just better at understanding what products their potential customers want?

If GM is getting out to the North East, maybe they should stop by the Harvard Business School and talk to Clayton Christensen about "Disruptive Innovation Theory" and maybe they might learn how to seek out untapped markets.

As for the "no one buys xxx" argument, how can GM know what customers want when they rely on dealers to act as the voice of the customer? Instead of limiting customer choices, maybe GM should leverage technology to improve a customer's ability to custom order the vehicle they want instead of choosing from dealer stock, which again generally reflects a lowest common denominator approach. Web technology combined with RFID and webcams in the manufacturing plant could actually be packaged as a high touch customer order experience and used as a market differentiating capability to simultaneously give customers the configuration they want and reduce dealer inventory. Much like Toyota discovered with fullsize pickup buyers, "enthusiasts" want what they want and are generally willing to wait or pay a premium to get it. As GM prices the Cadillac CTS with a manual transmission at a discount to the automatic, it clearly shows their thinking still reflects they believe buyers choose the manual transmission for cost reasons, which is completely false.

But given the fact GM can't even get EDS and IBM to play well together on building internals systems and outsourced most of their customer web properties offshore, I guess I shouldn't expect much.

GM has not had a wagon that sold well in the country since the Caprice wagon of the early 80's. Since then the Cavalier, Sunbird, 2 Saturn wagons [one based on the older platform the G8 is base], All the A body wagons. even the trio of B body wagons from the 90's died all to the lack of sales. Even Olds the wagon king of GM could not move them in it's final Decade.

I think GM has given the wagon a good go in various forms over the years and even with the G8 Sport wagon being it's best effort I would hate to make the call on this one. If you expect sales of 5K the effort could be used in a project with a much better return. Even 40K units a year was not enough to save the Magnum.

How much profit is there in a $30K car at 5K units with the exchange rate as it is? Now if they could build them in Canada on the Camaro line?? That may be a different story but I don't think that is possible since it is not a Zeta platform.

The one thing we both fail at in our argument is the unkown info GM has not made public. There are some real reasons they have not and will not share that would explain this and prove us both wrong. They have the real numbers and projections. They have the hard data that we can only assume. IF there was money here Lutz would not miss the chance. Who knows what Bob has cooked up. HE shocked many with the CTS coupe in Detroit What may we see in a year from now we don't even know about yet.

[Camino LS6]

To tell the truth, the plan GM had to bring the wagon and Ute here together was a stinker. That plan called for the Ute to be all high-end V8s with the wagon nothing but V6 automatics.

That was a stupid plan.

I don't think we've heard the last of the wagon.