Lutz: No to small cars and diesel, yes to E-85

[Lamar]

First off, you guys are great.

Second, add me to the "no subcompacts" list, for two reasons:

1) I'm not a fan of riding in a subcompact, let alone driving one.

2) I plan on having a large family and taking a lot of car trips. Even something along the lines of Kia Rondo or Mazda5 wouldn't serve my purposes.

[ZL-1]

But Stephens says GM already has observed a change in consumers' engine preferences: At the Cadillac division, 85 percent of buyers for the SRX crossover and STS luxury sedan are opting for the 3.6-liter DOHC V6 instead of the Northstar 4.6-liter V8.

Quoted for relevance.

[Duncan]

First off, you guys are great.

Second, add me to the "no subcompacts" list, for two reasons:

1) I'm not a fan of riding in a subcompact, let alone driving one.

2) I plan on having a large family and taking a lot of car trips. Even something along the lines of Kia Rondo or Mazda5 wouldn't serve my purposes.

I like some small cars, but only within limits. Having driven from Colorado to Iowa in a 1989 Honda Civic sedan with three other people during my life, I believe I am intimately familiar with EXACTLY what those limits are. (Put it this way: the car had no problems, but everyone else sure did.)

That said, I would never totally swear off buying any type of car. For instance, I currently have absolutely no need whatsoever for a big pickup - but that doesn't rule out my eventually owning one someday (preferably a GMC 4x4 in the '73-78 range) as a play truck.

And while I currently drive a fairly boring (save for the stickshift) midsize V6 sedan, my next car will be either a Camaro or Challenger with a V8. Unless something changes my plans drastically, but I don't have any reason to believe that will happen. My ideal car should have room for at least four people (or two and a full complement of luggage), a real shifter-and-clutch manual transmission, and enough power to pass anything I want while driving up US 24 into the Rockies.

Besides that, who knows? As a second car, I might get something like a Volt strictly for the pleasure of a new experience. I like to keep myself open.

[The O.C.]

Damn, I really want to see more diesels and small cars. Completely serious. WTF, Lutz?

E-85 seems like a stupid, bean-counter-type alternative to what I think most people would rather prefer.....an up-to-date diesel engine.

From what I've seen.....E-85 gets WORSE gas mileage than a comparable gasoline engine.....and it's tougher to find. So what's the uptick? I don't see one.....

[The O.C.]

Small cars suck and are not safe. You can not make a coffin on wheels safe in a freeway crash.

Diesels, Sadly I disagree with him here as the cost of diesel is offset over the long run by the higher gas milage. Just a matter of marketing and with the right message you can change perception.

My thoughts on the topic.

PLUS....as opposed to a hybrid....a good diesel engine can give you other rewards IN ADDITION TO better mileage......like they can be quite pleasurable (and FUN) to drive due to the excellent torque characteristics.

I had an Alfa Romeo Coupe GT in Frankfurt a few years back as a rental.....and it had "just" a 1.9L turbodiesel with, I think, "only" 150hp.....but that car was an absolute BLAST to drive and felt way faster than what I'm sure it was......

I've never been in any hybrid that was actually fun to drive....in addition to being frugal. Hell....a Prius rental I had only averaged 37mpg for the time I had the car. Sure that's good mileage....but not anywhere near what I would accept to offset the lack of fun-to-drive in the thing.

[Camino LS6]

E-85 seems like a stupid, bean-counter-type alternative to what I think most people would rather prefer.....an up-to-date diesel engine.

From what I've seen.....E-85 gets WORSE gas mileage than a comparable gasoline engine.....and it's tougher to find. So what's the uptick? I don't see one.....

You should check out recent developments in Ethanol science - the potential benefits are extraordinary.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You should check out recent developments in Ethanol science - the potential benefits are extraordinary.

There's no need for trepidation, Frog Farts will save our nation!

[The O.C.]

You should check out recent developments in Ethanol science - the potential benefits are extraordinary.

So tell me.....what are the potential benefits? How are they extraordinary? How do they make up for the loss in fuel efficiency?

I'm not trying to be a dick.....but all I see/hear is how E-85 is not as efficient in the first place. So what's the uptick? Cleaner emissions? Don't we already have numerous gasoline cars available that are PZEV or similar?

[thegriffon]

It is not that E85 is less efficient—simply that ethanol contains less energy. It is rapidly renewable, clean and can be produced from a wide variety of sources, almost anywhere in the world. On the otherhand ethanol has a higher octane, so it produces more power per stroke.

[Camino LS6]

Upticks:

- A domestic fuel

- 6 million cars that can use it are already on the road

- It can literally be made from garbage

- the by-products are also useful and marketable

- it produces 80% less CO2

- it is cleaner than other fuels by a huge margin RE other pollutants

- It will create a huge number of jobs

- it is inexpensive to convert existing cars to run on it

- it doesn't rely on battery tech

- it doesn't require that we change our tastes in vehicles

- The domestics have a lead in developing this technology

- it cost GM less than $200 to make an existing model E-85 capable

- it undercuts the price of gasoline now, and with the new tech, even moreso

[A Horse With No Name]

Upticks:

- A domestic fuel

- 6 million cars that can use it are already on the road

- It can literally be made from garbage

- the by-products are also useful and marketable

- it produces 80% less CO2

- it is cleaner than other fuels by a huge margin RE other pollutants

- It will create a huge number of jobs

- it is inexpensive to convert existing cars to run on it

- it doesn't rely on battery tech

- it doesn't require that we change our tastes in vehicles

- The domestics have a lead in developing this technology

- it cost GM less than $200 to make an existing model E-85 capable

- it undercuts the price of gasoline now, and with the new tech, even moreso

It will still take time to bring up to speed...but I really hope we continue to invest in E-85.

Chris

[aldw]

Algae based biofuels would be an excellent proposition to reducing fuel costs and environmental exhaust emissions as well, the sooner someone gets it started, the better things will be for vehicle choices.

[roadwarrior]

E-85 seems like a stupid, bean-counter-type alternative to what I think most people would rather prefer.....an up-to-date diesel engine.

From what I've seen.....E-85 gets WORSE gas mileage than a comparable gasoline engine.....and it's tougher to find. So what's the uptick? I don't see one.....

Yeah, like 25% worse mileage. Forget that garbage. Another dirty little secret about E-85 is we're all paying a whole lot more for it than gas whether we use it or not...in the forms of the subsidies the government pays to the farmers to grow all the extra corn, and in the increased cost of food that comes from more arable land being used for corn for ethanol. It's a giant swindle that needs to go away entirely.

Bio-diesel on the other hand...for cripes sake, you can essentially filter some used oil from micky-D's or any other fast food joint and burn that (I know, a little more work than that, but not much). Not only is it clean and cheap, it's RECYCLING a waste product that would just wind up being thrown away anyway. And you can do it all in your garage.

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, like 25% worse mileage. Forget that garbage. Another dirty little secret about E-85 is we're all paying a whole lot more for it than gas whether we use it or not...in the forms of the subsidies the government pays to the farmers to grow all the extra corn, and in the increased cost of food that comes from more arable land being used for corn for ethanol. It's a giant swindle that needs to go away entirely.

Bio-diesel on the other hand...for cripes sake, you can essentially filter some used oil from micky-D's or any other fast food joint and burn that (I know, a little more work than that, but not much). Not only is it clean and cheap, it's RECYCLING a waste product that would just wind up being thrown away anyway. And you can do it all in your garage.

Your facts are out of date.

[Robert Hall]

Yeah, like 25% worse mileage. Forget that garbage. Another dirty little secret about E-85 is we're all paying a whole lot more for it than gas whether we use it or not...in the forms of the subsidies the government pays to the farmers to grow all the extra corn, and in the increased cost of food that comes from more arable land being used for corn for ethanol. It's a giant swindle that needs to go away entirely.

Bio-diesel on the other hand...for cripes sake, you can essentially filter some used oil from micky-D's or any other fast food joint and burn that (I know, a little more work than that, but not much). Not only is it clean and cheap, it's RECYCLING a waste product that would just wind up being thrown away anyway. And you can do it all in your garage.

E-85 seems like a poor substitute to modern diesels....after all, if the Europeans (and soon the Japanese) can sell diesel cars here, why can't GM? This isn't 1984 when GM diesels were $h!..

[Blake Noble]

I know I would like to have a diesel option on a nice, rear-drive, mid-sized coupe. And not just there. I think at least sixty percent of all cars and trucks in America need a diesel option.

[Robert Hall]

I know I would like to have a diesel option on a nice, rear-drive, mid-sized coupe. And not just there. I think at least sixty percent of all cars and trucks in America need a diesel option.

Agreed...esp. the trucks and SUVs..

[enzl]

E85 seems like a boondoggle. Anything the Senate is hot for can't be good.

Diesel will always be sailing against a headwind here in the states. I'd sooner see the Feds push stations into Diesel than E85. Most Diesel emporiums are kinda nasty. A little too 'truckstop' for Mom in her CUV (which ironically would be the best destination for clean diesels.)

I think we're going to see more hybrids than diesels for a while.

[daves87rs]

I know I would like to have a diesel option on a nice, rear-drive, mid-sized coupe. And not just there. I think at least sixty percent of all cars and trucks in America need a diesel option.

Agreed. They should sell pretty well....

[prinzSD]

Add my name too.

And me with a used 2004 Z06(always wanted a Vette) to replace the 93 TA when it dies (currently with 177,000 miles), or maybe a GTO ( 4 seats) or maybe a CTS-V( again 4 seats). But since I always wanted a Vette it will most likely be a Vette unless I buy my dads 87 Vette that has about 40,000 miles on it. The only drawback to the 87 Vette is they are not as fast as a 2004 Z06, hell even my 93TA may be a little faster.

[jcgable]

Small cars and newer fuel saving technologies are the future. They are becoming increasingly viable for my generation (youngish)

[siegen]

Ethanol is not worth it until it is produced from waste cellulosic materials and does not impact our food supply. Ethanol from corn is rubbish. And even if we wanted to, switching over our entire domestic corn crop to the production of Ethanol fuel would only displace in the neighborhood of 12-13% of gasoline usage. As it stands right now, we are only displacing around 2% of gasoline and using 15% of our corn crop. Many other crops have been displaced to make room for more corn land. Often times studies fail to take into account the lessened supply of all food crops, not just corn. Increasing Ethanol production from corn is going to raise the prices of all farm crops.

"We found unequivocally that it does not take more energy than you get out of the amount of ethanol. So it's a net good if you grow ethanol and use it," says Dan Kammen, a physicist and energy expert at the University of California at Berkeley

David Pimentel, an agriculture scientist at Cornell University, disagrees. "They criticize us for including the energy for the labor -- that is the farm laborer who is working on the farm," he says. "They deleted that. They also deleted another major input, that is the farm machinery."

Pimentel says when all of the important sources of energy needed to grow the corn and make the ethanol -- he lists 14 -- are included, it takes 70 percent more energy to make gallon of ethanol than it gives off. Since much of that energy comes from oil or coal, he says it's not a good alternative. Pimentel adds that ethanol does make considerable money for companies that grow corn.

Kammen disagrees with Pimentel's numbers, but acknowledges that the positive energy benefit he sees in corn-based ethanol is modest.

And in fact making and using ethanol does almost nothing to lessen the amount of greenhouse gases that warm the atmosphere.

The Berkeley and Cornell groups do agree on one thing -- corn isn't the best way to make ethanol. Plants with higher cellulose content like switchgrass or sugar cane are much better. Kammen says high cellulose plants are the future of ethanol, not corn.

Source

[A Horse With No Name]

What do you suggest as an alternate fuel then?

Chris

[siegen]

What do you suggest as an alternate fuel then?

Chris

Babies.

[regfootball]

ethanol is made from feed corn, not the juicy sweet corn we eat.

while ag is subsidized, it falls into line with the age old political agenda of being able to produce agriculture here and being competitive in that arena worldwide. So take it up with your politicians. Not saying its right or wrong, but just saying that getting rid of corn ethanol will not remove the farm subsidy program. If anything, ethanol revenue may make some growers less dependent or qualified for subsidies. Another flip side, like in my wife's hometown, they are building an ehtanol plant. The boom to that town will be unlike any economic boost that town has seen since, basically, never.

and GM is smart. make the trucks run on the fuel they grow themselves and you have customers forever. those folks do not want to send the money to the folks not like them overseas.

it's a start. Why does everyone think it has to be the end solution?

commodity prices are way up, but its not necessarily due to ethanol. and, raw material does not explain why bread is 3 dollars instead of 2, because even if the cost of the raw material doubles, that's still only a few cents. the cost of the flour / wheat in bread is only a few cents. blame your marketing and transportation for the cost explosion.

E85 and ethanol fuels should be one component of our fuel choices. Euros say diesel is a better choice than hybrids. Let them build cost effective hybrids first before anyone declares them useful to those of us who wish to spend our money wisely. until then, we should diversify ethanols and diesels too.

and lest ye forget. bush/cheney is still in control and there is no cutting off exxon's etc. big profits until those guys are out. you silly boys.

Edited February 25, 2008 by regfootball

[A Horse With No Name]

I've got five children, that doesn't work so good.

Pretty shure the Mrs. would cut me off were I to use my children as fuel. Not only do I like the smell of Sunoco 104 octaine, I enjoy sex so this is out of the question.

E-85 is at best a stopgap fuel. I think we'll use biofuels for quite awhile (50-75 years) and eventually graduate to Hydrogen. but that's just my utterly wild ass guess.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Corn is only a temporary/supplemental source for ethanol production. I wouldn't invest much in a company that relies on corn-sourced ethanol - it will soon be outclassed. However, E-85 is the most viable alternative we have and Coskata's approach is a winner. GM has backed the right horse on this one. With that said, locally produced and consumed cord-based ethanol still makes sense. Once you try to ship either the corn or the finished product great distances, the viability falls off quickly. Even at a reduced viability, corn-ethanol is still a good thing as it remains a domestic fuel. We will need all of the sources and techologies being developed for alternative fuels for quite some time as we move away from oil. Too bad that bio-diesel isn't as promising as E-85 right now, we need both in mass quantity ASAP.

[Robert Hall]

How about hemp for ethanol?

Hempcar.org

[siegen]

I foresee both traditional gasoline and diesel ICE's being run mostly on biofuels from waste products in the near future, and the infrastructure will probably be their for a long time. However, hydrogen and electric motors are a good alternative for the long term. Electric motor size, weight, and torque make them very attractive for powering a vehicle. Hydrogen stored in tanks with a converter is the most efficient method of storing energy, since the primary ingredient in the reaction to create electricity is oxygen; and FCV's are quick to refuel. Scientists may find an even better medium for energy storage in the future, but I think electric motors will still play the vital role, in one form or another.

[Intrepidation]

Hydrogen is the way to go, pure and simple.

• It can be run with Fuel Cells and Electric motors
• Or it can be run with ICE's
• It's the most abundant element in the universe
• It's water product is water vapor.

All it needs is more investment, government backing (yeah right), and a hydrogen infrastructure set up.

[regfootball]

like the govt would back cars.