Answer me this

[Intrepidation]

Since no one has given me a straight answer in other threads I'll make a thread just for the question. Someone please tell me how a FWD Impala is anymore efficient than a RWD? Is is it cost effective if a new FWD platform must be engineered for it, unless they place to use the G-Bodies or bring the W-Bodies back for yet another round?

All I know is the cancellation the Impala really irritates me, far more so than any other things I've heard recently, including Chinese Dodge subcompacts.

Unless someone can come with a good explanation, the only reason I think that it was canceled, and I'm sure others feel the same way, is because of the pricks inside GM that are deadset on killing Holden and killing Zeta just because it came from Holden. These people seem to think that enthusiasts will settle for yet more FWD cars when we've already got enough.

It's a stupid and childish move. GM shouldn't even bother with a new Impala or Impala replacement. Just kill it off. What's the point of it besides being slightly bigger than the Malibu? Nothing, because it offers nothing unique.

That's my rant. I expect an answer to my original question.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's not. It's a red herring used to cover up that GM-Europe is trying to take over the company with their own ideals.

[avant1963]

On of the big "issues" I always heard from the 70's was that because there is no driveshaft tunnel, and the engine can be turned transversely, you can package more space into the interior of a FWD car, while having a smaller, lighter vehicle. Smaller vehicle outside, lighter overall vehicle, better MPH. Don't know how that holds up now, but that was one of the excuses back then.

I still think GM is gun-shy over moving a bread-and-butter vehicle over to RWD, when they will lose some of the snow-belt states that still want FWD. If you make it RWD and offer AWD, then the weight is up, hence lowering MPG (What's the take rate on 300/Charger AWD systems? Low I bet).

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I want a RWD Impala and more Zetas here in the states. But if we have to sacrifice a RWD Impala to get the Alpha cars quicker, then I'm for it. The Alphas may be more my price range anyway. If we are losing RWD totally, then I'm just annoyed.

[Intrepidation]

It's a waste of an excellent platform that in all of the reviews thus far it has been praised for it's poise, tautness, suspension, brakes, and everything.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

An absolute waste.

Not to mention angering all of us who have been waiting for the zetas for years.

This "new GM" will continue to anger and alienate its core buyers until GMNA is a bit player in its own home market. If this isn't stopped, it really is the end.

[VenSeattle]

Since no one has given me a straight answer in other threads I'll make a thread just for the question. Someone please tell me how a FWD Impala is anymore efficient than a RWD? Is is it cost effective if a new FWD platform must be engineered for it, unless they place to use the G-Bodies or bring the W-Bodies back for yet another round?

Here's my speculation -

The Epsilon II platform (and Epsilon in general) is less expensive to manufacture than Zeta. Malibu & Impala eventually sharing development/production costs (including the volume generated by using the same platform) also helps play a part.

The Epsilon II platform has been engineered to support most of GM's alternative fuel options. Zeta wasn't (regardless of reason or who's at fault.)

Zeta is expensive. Even with the changes made. It's still a "premium platform" replacement to the G-Platform on most accounts. The reason Camaro can survive and get away with it (for a few years) is because it'll cover a far larger price range between trim levels (over $20k depending.) This helps offset the costs involved, but not entirely. I doubt the new Camaro will ever become profitable.

Understand, a Zeta Impala will be expensive because it's on Zeta, not because it's necessarily worth it. By this I mean content would suffer on a Zeta-based Impala to help keep costs down. An Epsilon II Impala would be more apt to compete with feature-laden flagships of other current mainstream sedans - Avalon, Maxima, Azera, and Taurus/Sable without crossing into territory (price and class) occupied by other GM brands. How many $30-$40k RWD sedans does GM need? CTS, G8, Impala, Lucerne? Ugh…

I won't even get into volume appeal... ugh...

Another perspective… People want to say it is Chevrolet’s heritage to have RWD… well, back when everything and everyone else had RWD. Today, RWD is a specialty platform while practically all of Chevrolet’s cars and Chevrolet’s car competition are FWD. Chevrolet’s mainstream and value-driven role is what kept Chevrolet from getting GM’s FWD G-Platform. See… It’s not only premium RWD platforms that GM holds back from Chevrolet. The same problems that existed for the G-Platform are still in place for Zeta.

I'm probably off, but that's my rationale behind the decision.

[regfootball]

On of the big "issues" I always heard from the 70's was that because there is no driveshaft tunnel, and the engine can be turned transversely, you can package more space into the interior of a FWD car, while having a smaller, lighter vehicle. Smaller vehicle outside, lighter overall vehicle, better MPH. Don't know how that holds up now, but that was one of the excuses back then.

I still think GM is gun-shy over moving a bread-and-butter vehicle over to RWD, when they will lose some of the snow-belt states that still want FWD. If you make it RWD and offer AWD, then the weight is up, hence lowering MPG (What's the take rate on 300/Charger AWD systems? Low I bet).

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I want a RWD Impala and more Zetas here in the states. But if we have to sacrifice a RWD Impala to get the Alpha cars quicker, then I'm for it. The Alphas may be more my price range anyway. If we are losing RWD totally, then I'm just annoyed.

that's part of it. (in bold). I still think CAFE is the biggest reason. An unfair blanket generalization, but still.

RWD longitudinal chassis lose efficiency in the power robbing 90 degree transfer from longitudinal to transverse. Then, some more added weight and frictiony extra driveline components FWD does not have.

But in the end, I don't think it's maybe a 1 mpg diff in the real world when considered with most engines.

The part you don't hear is how FWD is cheaper to build. Build the unibody, set the engine on a cradle and drop it up / in from below. I think RWD adds a bit of $$ and fussiness on the assembly line, which is probably a big reason GM won't do it. Beancounters.

The take rate on the Ford Chicago products for AWD is good. GM apparently is not wanting to deal with that, much. No AWD Zeta and only Saabs and Caddies otherwise with AWD for sedans. I was amazed Chevy allowed AWD on the Equinox, usually they fight things like that. When GM does offer AWD, they stick it to you.

I think Chevy needs a RWD biased Caprice or Impala and its there for the taking, however, GM is spooked right now and my guess is they are planning to move Impala to a large stretched out Epsilon 2 chassis.

What Chevy needs to do with Impala in the interim is simple......ditch the 3.9. Keep the 3.5 for the base models, put the 3.6/6 speed in the mid levels, and do some fixing on the SS. Put the GP GXP suspension specs in the Impala SS, give it some decent sport seats and put a 6 speed automatic with paddle shifters in it and spruce up the interior. At least make the Impala SS that is there now, an engaging car. That's the biggest trasngression right now, is they are not putting a fair effort into the SS they have right now until the next model is available.

Edited January 21, 2008 by regfootball

[!!!TED!!!]

Returning the Impala to its RWD roots was one of the best ideas after a new Camaro. Doing it has been another story.

This program really had me dreaming, and hoping. After the Camaro concept debuted, it looked like the next sure thing.

A heritage-inspired, modern, RWD V6 and V8 Impala. A big, proud car. Finally something for the Police and taxi other than the tired Panthers and W-bodys. Finally, the possibility of a true SS (of the B-body ilk).

Im really dissapointed.

Lets review recent Impala (behind the scenes) History:

GMX210 2000-2005 W-body. Tried to evoke classic Chevrolet cues, but mated to an old FWD architecture.

GMX393 2005? Proposed Epsilon-wide replacement. Would have been a bigger Malibu. Cancelled....

GMX211 2005-now W-body rehash/update. Finally, an SS with a V8, but same old guts.

GMX551 2009 Zeta platform. A true, world class RWD platform, currently underpinning a Buick in China, Chevys in the Middle East, and Holdens in Australia. Was in development for NA.

Now what?

[Camino LS6]

Any new FWD Impala will fail - utterly.

A LWB version of Malibu under the Malibu name would be a far more sensible idea if we must have a FWD sedan bigger than Malibu.

To have developed Zeta and wasted it really is a crime. As much as I still think most of the zetas should still be produced, I will say that once again, GM is late to the party. If these RWD products were here 2 years ago, we wouldn't be discussing any of this. GM delayed itself into a corner and missed the timing sweet spot because they screwed around with the idea of RWD and then flip-flopped about their intentions again and again.

Now, they are in full panic mode and are over-reacting to CAFE and temporary financial conditions. An approach such as the one backed by PCS is a one-way ticket to oblivion. Any cancellation of products or brands will immediately be seen by the public as a certain sign that GM is headed for bankruptcy and all of the amazing work done by Lutz and company will be for nothing. The obvious and substantial work done to effect the so far amazing turnaround will be forgotten and the "GM deathwatch" folks will once again dominate all of the press relating to GM. To throw all of this away in favor of such an ill-conceived agenda as GME is promoting is nothing short of suicidal. The bad PR alone will do all the damage required.

If this is allowed to come to pass in its entirety, Roger Smith will look like a saviour by comparison.

[Drew Dowdell]

the 2-mode hybrid fits in the same space as a 6-speed auto... so I dunno why Zeta couldn't have one.

[Camino LS6]

the 2-mode hybrid fits in the same space as a 6-speed auto... so I dunno why Zeta couldn't have one.

It could.

[Drew Dowdell]

The bad PR alone will do all the damage required.

QFT.

[Drew Dowdell]

If what PCS wants comes to fruition, I hope that Buick, Pontiac, and Holden get sold off to someone else. Better to be alive and well under someone else's roof than crippled and on life support or 6 feet under.

It will be interesting to see what Tata does with Jaguar and LR. If they keep those brands true to their roots and do it well, I could see Pontiac and Buick also being purchased to give Tata a crack at the lower end of the market.

I know most of you don't like the idea of foreign ownership <me either>, but I'd rather jump ship than stay on board while Commander PCS* steers the ship directly into the iceburg.

*Or was that Captain Ahab... chasing after his white Holden?

[z28luvr01]

From this thread:

Meanwhile, Reuss has said he is keen to see a hybrid version of the Commodore. In his former engineering role he played a part in the early development of the hybrid system that would fit the Holden.

The 2 mode hybrid WILL fit Zeta. Also, I've posted this before, but it's worth a look again:

Here, we see two cars very similar in size and weight powered by the same basic engine and achieving very similar fuel economy despite one being FWD and one being RWD. One could argue that the STS's transmission has two more gears than the DTS's, or that the STS has slightly smaller interior dimensions, but the perceived discrepancy in fuel economy between FWD and RWD is very much overblown. Whatever your reasons for choosing one drivetrain configuration over the other, fuel economy should not be an issue.

[VenSeattle]

QFT.

I disagree. VOLT alone will overshadow any image a RWD Impala would bring. If GM's profitability, quality, and turn-around efforts all pick up pace without signs of legitimate concern (non-CAFE related prudent planning)... I doubt the public perception will be even half as bad as what's being implied. In general, Chevrolet & GM need the VOLT as an Image vehicle in today's market, not a limited RWD Performance Impala.

[Camino LS6]

I disagree. VOLT alone will overshadow any image a RWD Impala would bring. If GM's profitability, quality, and turn-around efforts all pick up pace without signs of legitimate concern (non-CAFE related prudent planning)... I doubt the public perception will be even half as bad as what's being implied. In general, Chevrolet & GM need the VOLT as an Image vehicle in today's market, not a limited RWD Performance Impala.

You miss the point there,Ven.

The lack of a RWD Impala by itself is a minor issue. But if the rest of PCS' foolishness is implemented, it will be the begining of the end.

[ZL-1]

I think the fuel economy issue is not RWD vs FWD in general as some of you are reading it. I think it's Zeta vs EpII (or whatever other FWD options GM has with regard to the NG Impala).

Edited January 21, 2008 by ZL-1

[Drew Dowdell]

I disagree. VOLT alone will overshadow any image a RWD Impala would bring. If GM's profitability, quality, and turn-around efforts all pick up pace without signs of legitimate concern (non-CAFE related prudent planning)... I doubt the public perception will be even half as bad as what's being implied. In general, Chevrolet & GM need the VOLT as an Image vehicle in today's market, not a limited RWD Performance Impala.

A RWD Impala contributes to the volume needed for NA produced Camaro, G8s, GTOs, Park Aves, and DTSes.

[VenSeattle]

A RWD Impala contributes to the volume needed for NA produced Camaro, G8s, GTOs, Park Aves, and DTSes.

How much volume is actually needed? Is there really a lack of volume? If so, why not build the G8 here instead of indefinitely importing it? GTO is dead. Camaro will be exported.

The Park Avenue/Lucerne and the STS/DTS replacment will be made in LGR. PCS has hinted that those vehicles will be exported as well.

Oshawa is not switching to RWD only. It will produce both FWD and RWD. The FWD Impala (if there is one) will be made in Oshawa.

[jcgable]

I'd hate to say it, but if there isn't a business case to export Zeta to the US, I can see why they are backing off. If they are really going to have trouble keeping the product profitable, it only makes sense.

That said, a RWD Impala would be SWEET!

[Camino LS6]

How much volume is actually needed? Is there really a lack of volume? If so, why not build the G8 here instead of indefinitely importing it? GTO is dead. Camaro will be exported.

The Park Avenue/Lucerne and the STS/DTS replacment will be made in LGR. PCS has hinted that those vehicles will be exported as well.

Oshawa is not switching to RWD only. It will produce both FWD and RWD. The FWD Impala (if there is one) will be made in Oshawa.

Don't just think of volume by plant, think of volume also by architecture - both are requirements.

Zeta in GMNA was to produce a volume of 3-400,000, Camaro will only be able to muster about 100,000 - see the problem?

[VenSeattle]

Don't just think of volume by plant, think of volume also by architecture - both are requirements.

Zeta in GMNA was to produce a volume of 3-400,000, Camaro will only be able to muster about 100,000 - see the problem?

That was back when Oshawa was going 100% RWD. That's no longer the case.

In addition, PCS has indicated the Zetas produced at LGR are to be exported... we recently learned Camaro will be exported as well.

[Camino LS6]

That was back when Oshawa was going 100% RWD. That's no longer the case.

In addition, PCS has indicated the Zetas produced at LGR are to be exported... we recently learned Camaro will be exported as well.

The architecture still needs the volume

[VenSeattle]

Here's another issue...

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gara...track=1&cse

GM is heavily pushing for CHEVROLET IS GREEN. A RWD Performance Impala sends a contradictory message. A Green/Hybrid luxury-geared FWD Impala wouldn't. It would also continue to appeal to the demographic/market that the Impala currently competes in.

You can't have PONTIAC IS PERFORMANCE and CHEVROLET IS PERFORMANCE

If you want focused and defined brands... here you go:

PONTIAC IS PERFORMANCE

CHEVROLET IS GREEN

Due to CAFE and other issues, PERFORMANCE IS DEAD has an unfortunate ring to it.

(The caps are not yelling in my post above but a play on Pontiac's new slogan. Please do not take it out of context or misinterpret.)

[VenSeattle]

The architecture still needs the volume

Why? SIGMA has less volume and is more expensive to build than Zeta.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why? SIGMA has far less volume and is more expensive to build than Zeta.

they also get to charge more for the "base" sigma

you really want the Camaro to start at 30,000?

[VenSeattle]

they also get to charge more for the "base" sigma

you really want the Camaro to start at 30,000?

No, but there will be $30k Camaros... along with potentially $70k US Cadillac Zetas... and potentially $100k+(US) exported Cadillac and Buick Zetas to China and other markets.

[Camino LS6]

"Pontiac is Performance"

and

"Chevy is Green"

Is a supportable strategy for the most part. As I said before, the lack of a RWD Impala is an acceptable sacrifice - but killing zeta is not.

Corvette and Camaro would do far more to tarnish the "green" image than Impala would, not to mention the SUVs and trucks. So I don't see that as a real justification for Killing the RWD Impala - there are more valid reasons for that. Besides, " Green Performance" is quite possible anyway.

[VenSeattle]

"Pontiac is Performance"

and

"Chevy is Green"

Is a supportable strategy for the most part. As I said before, the lack of a RWD Impala is an acceptable sacrifice - but killing zeta is not.

Corvette and Camaro would do far more to tarnish the "green" image than Impala would, not to mention the SUVs and trucks. So I don't see that as a real justification for Killing the RWD Impala - there are more valid reasons for that. Besides, " Green Performance" is quite possible anyway.

Camaro and Corvette are niche products even if Chevrolet sells 100k+ of the Camaros. They'll have little impact on Chevrolet's image if Chevrolet's trucks receive Hybrid technology.

Despite the conspiracy theories, I believe GM ran the numbers over and over again and came up with a losing proposition for the ZETA-based Impala. To build it at a price-point that would undercut the G8 (which is critical to Pontiac's survival) and make it profitable may be impossible. Each Impala sold might have increased the amount necessary to break even on Zeta if it were to be built at a loss.

[Camino LS6]

Camaro and Corvette are niche products even if Chevrolet sells 100k+ of the Camaros. They'll have little impact on Chevrolet's image if Chevrolet's trucks receive Hybrid technology.

Despite the conspiracy theories, I believe GM ran the numbers over and over again and came up with a losing proposition for the ZETA-based Impala. To build it at a price-point that would undercut the G8 (which is critical to Pontiac's survival) and make it profitable may be impossible. Each Impala sold might have increased the amount necessary to break even on Zeta if it were to be built at a loss.

As I said, I can see real reasons not to build the Zeta Impala. However, I see no reason for a new FWD Impala, nor the end to other Zetas.

[z28luvr01]

Ven, the abandonment of the GMX383 Zeta Impala is just a symptom of a much larger problem - the wholesale abandonment of volume RWD in North America. Impala is already gone, the G8's future is shaky, and the Buick/Caddy Zetas you mention for export have not been confirmed yet for US consumption. Camaro is the only confirmed Zeta, and it's future is looking more perilous by the day especially if it ends up being the only car to ride on the platform. Hell, with Alpha being not much more than vaporware right now and Sigma scheduled to be retired sometime next decade, you could argue that aside from the Corvette and maybe the Kappa cars, RWD by and large will be finished in this country.

No RWD hurts not only the enthusiasts - it hurts the luxury and prestige buyers as well. Ask Acura how it's doing in its quest to become a top luxury brand. Anyway, the reasons given for the cancellation of the Impala is a shallow one that really has no teeth when you do a bit of research (see my earlier post in this thread). Despite this, we'll be hearing the fuel economy excuse over and over again as desirable performance and prestige models from GMNA are killed one by one.

[Intrepidation]

In my view, if the Impala is not going to be RWD then it might as well not exist. It'll have nothing besides a little more room to differenciate it. Anyway, if the goal if for Chevy to be green, then a bigger sedan that will be less efficient seems pointless under that image.

The fact that Chrysler isn't planning to kill off it's LX/LY platform shows that CAFE isn't the reason Zeta is being shunned. I'm sure fuel efficient powertrains can be adopted for Chrysler's platform, so they'll do the logical thing and stuff some in there, like a Hybrid, not kill teh entire platform.

[VenSeattle]

Dodgefan - Has Chrysler actually announced their CAFE plans? I know they've said the numbers are "attainable" but I don't think they've stated how they plan to accomplish it. You may be deeply disappointed. At the moment, there's no guarnatee Chrysler will be around by the time the new CAFE regulations go into effect, so taking their lead isn't the best course for any manufacturer.

Z - I am aware of what you stated... however, much of that is unconfirmed and speculative. And as you agree, that outcome makes no sense. Flat out killing RWD makes no sense. Therefore I default to saying until GM announces that as an actual decision, I'm not condemning GM for it. Paranoia that Corvette, Zeta, Alpha, SIGMA, Kappa, etc are all going away is "wildfire" of speculation that has come from but a few decisions that have been tossed around and/or have been made. Even if you buy into everything that's been predicted, Cadillac is SAFE. That alone tells you there is a plan for at least Cadillac.

[Intrepidation]

Dodgefan - Has Chrysler actually announced their CAFE plans? I know they've said the numbers are "attainable" but I don't think they've stated how they plan to accomplish it. You may be deeply disappointed. At the moment, there's no guarnatee Chrysler will be around by the time the new CAFE regulations go into effect, so taking their lead isn't the best course for any manufacturer.

Z - I am aware of what you stated... however, much of that is unconfirmed and speculative. And as you agree, that outcome makes no sense. Flat out killing RWD makes no sense. Therefore I default to saying until GM announces that as an actual decision, I'm not condemning GM for it. Paranoia that Corvette, Zeta, Alpha, SIGMA, Kappa, etc are all going away is "wildfire" of speculation that has come from but a few decisions that have been tossed around and/or have been made. Even if you buy into everything that's been predicted, Cadillac is SAFE. That alone tells you there is a plan for at least Cadillac.

I'd have to check, but one can guess the same technologies GM could implement in Zeta to meet Cafe could work for Chrysler. Hybrids are a possibility, fuel efficient powertrains are too. The Hemi could be a lower volume trim level of the LXs, a Hybrid powertrain could very well fit in there, and the new family of V6 engines will be more efficient and feature technologies like MDS to help them.

There's a lot of uncertainty in the market, but I do no this: Chrysler took the chance and brought RWD back to the market for the average person to be able to afford. They didn't sit around wasting time debating on if it should be FWD or RWD, they don't have employees trying to kill off the platform and cause turmoil and unrest, and they haven't, at least yet, decided to completely abandon a good platform.

Zeta is an excellent platform, I believe it's even better than teh current LX in some ways, and when we are so close to having more of these RWD machines to choose from, suddenly it's being killed off left and right, leaving us with the G8 and Camaro thus far. It's pretty frustrating. Instead of finding creative solutions to meet CAFe and keep Zeta, there are those at GM that want it to build more me-too cars to compete with Japan Inc. instead of being different, and giving people clear alternatives to them.

[VenSeattle]

Dodgefan... once again, much of that is speculation. You're not sure what is going on internally at Chrysler or Cerberus. They could be fighting over platform phase-outs just like we speculate GM is doing. We're just more prone to the "noise" coming out of GM than Chrysler/Cerberus. To date: GM hasn't abandoned RWD, Zeta, or performance.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

I'd have to check, but one can guess the same technologies GM could implement in Zeta to meet Cafe could work for Chrysler. Hybrids are a possibility, fuel efficient powertrains are too. The Hemi could be a lower volume trim level of the LXs,

Jim Press just said Hemi is not fit for the future.

[Intrepidation]

Jim Press just said Hemi is not fit for the future.

Link?

[mustang84]

Ford has confirmed a RWD large Ford-branded sedan to go into production. Look at how well the Crown Victoria / Grand Marquis still sell even though they are ancient. Look how well the LX cars selling. If GM can't figure out how to build a RWD sedan and still meet CAFE, then throw in the towel and close up shop because Ford and Chrysler apparently have a way. I can see Ford sticking in the EcoBoost Duratec 35 into a car that will be out in a couple years while GM is still f*cking around deciding on a platform.

Keep Zeta, build a limited-production RWD Impala, power it with a V6, and stop throwing money away. Tell GM Europe to shove it. It's hard to stick up for a company that moves at a snail's pace and can't commit to anything!

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Link?

Here you go Dodgefan

[Intrepidation]

Here you go Dodgefan

Thanks, a sad, though not unexpected read. I don't think it will disappear entirely but certainly we will see a lot less of it and V8's in general, which is a damn shame.

We should be able to choose if we want something that gets 35 mpg and sounds liek a lawnmower or not. There should be choices not mandates. I want one of both types, and I WILL drive a V8 car in the future. To hell with CAFE.

As has been the argument about Zeta though, it's the powertrains that determine the efficiency of the vehicle, nowhere do they mention that they need to switch to FWD to get good fuel economy.

[Intrepidation]

Ford has confirmed a RWD large Ford-branded sedan to go into production. Look at how well the Crown Victoria / Grand Marquis still sell even though they are ancient. Look how well the LX cars selling. If GM can't figure out how to build a RWD sedan and still meet CAFE, then throw in the towel and close up shop because Ford and Chrysler apparently have a way. I can see Ford sticking in the EcoBoost Duratec 35 into a car that will be out in a couple years while GM is still f*cking around deciding on a platform.

Keep Zeta, build a limited-production RWD Impala, power it with a V6, and stop throwing money away. Tell GM Europe to shove it. It's hard to stick up for a company that moves at a snail's pace, has no balls, and can't commit to anything!

Fixed, and completely agreed.

[Sixty8panther]

An absolute waste.

Not to mention angering all of us who have been waiting for the zetas for years.

This "new GM" will continue to anger and alienate its core buyers until GMNA is a bit player in its own home market. If this isn't stopped, it really is the end.

Agreed!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Here's another issue...

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gara...track=1&cse

GM is heavily pushing for CHEVROLET IS GREEN. A RWD Performance Impala sends a contradictory message. A Green/Hybrid luxury-geared FWD Impala wouldn't. It would also continue to appeal to the demographic/market that the Impala currently competes in.

You can't have PONTIAC IS PERFORMANCE and CHEVROLET IS PERFORMANCE

If you want focused and defined brands... here you go:

PONTIAC IS PERFORMANCE

CHEVROLET IS GREEN

Due to CAFE and other issues, PERFORMANCE IS DEAD has an unfortunate ring to it.

(The caps are not yelling in my post above but a play on Pontiac's new slogan. Please do not take it out of context or misinterpret.)

Yet again, I ask: what does RWD have to do with not being green? Sure, a Zeta Impala might offer a V8 but me thinks "performance sedan" is a far stretch for the car since Pontiac covers that with the G8.

And FWIW, sources close to the F5 Camaro are stating that it DOES NOT need the additional volume of a Zeta Impala to exist because development was dirt cheap.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Camaro and Corvette are niche products even if Chevrolet sells 100k+ of the Camaros. They'll have little impact on Chevrolet's image if Chevrolet's trucks receive Hybrid technology.

Despite the conspiracy theories, I believe GM ran the numbers over and over again and came up with a losing proposition for the ZETA-based Impala. To build it at a price-point that would undercut the G8 (which is critical to Pontiac's survival) and make it profitable may be impossible. Each Impala sold might have increased the amount necessary to break even on Zeta if it were to be built at a loss.

I agree...

And that is one definite reason I would support killing a Zeta Impala. Not to mention, Lutz has always been a champion of Pontiac, so he could've been the one to pull the plug on GMX551 for that very reason.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Here you go Dodgefan

That's some

It can be interpreted in a few different ways as well...

1) Of course it's not the powertrain of the future, it's a proven technology.

2) I'm willing to bet that any "kid" you talk to today knows what a Hemi is; if for no other reason than the EXTREMELY successful ad blitz of a few years ago.

3) That piece makes the motor sound outdated and it certainly isn't.

I just don't see why we can't have the CHOICE of a V8. It's overreacting a bit to just up and cancel V8s left and right just because of fuel economy rules that are "attainable" in the first place. What has gotten in to these automakers? I don't see the Japs or Europeans abandoning their V8 programs.

It's almost like the CAFE magically made the mindset in Detroit regress 20 years to the dark ages of motor technology...

GM announced that it wouldn't invest in development of anymore V8 lines anytime soon. HOPEFULLY that means they're just going to focus on the LS line. And I'm not sure Chrysler will completely abandon the Hemi.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't want a f*ckin' electric car that whizzes to 60 mph in 6 seconds. If I wanted that, I'd just buy an xbox and play games. There is no excitement or individuality in that... But alas, it's the continued globalization and subsequent DUMBING DOWN of american culture.

[daves87rs]

In my view, if the Impala is not going to be RWD then it might as well not exist. It'll have nothing besides a little more room to differenciate it. Anyway, if the goal if for Chevy to be green, then a bigger sedan that will be less efficient seems pointless under that image.

The fact that Chrysler isn't planning to kill off it's LX/LY platform shows that CAFE isn't the reason Zeta is being shunned. I'm sure fuel efficient powertrains can be adopted for Chrysler's platform, so they'll do the logical thing and stuff some in there, like a Hybrid, not kill teh entire platform.

The reason why they haven't killed the LX platform yet is like everyone else-they are still waiting to see what happens...

I can't read too heavy into what PCS says yet-because GM, like other companies is in that wait and see mode.

I honestly think that they haven;t killed the Zetas yet-I think they will just be delayed-unless things for the automakers themselves head south...

I can see why the new Impy was killled-it was pointless to have around. The mailbu has taken the Impy's spot in the lineup-so away goes the Impy....I saw that coming...

Had GM had the extra money-and not been screwed by CAFE-then it would have been worth bringing a RWD Impy to the states...

But since Apha is coming-there really isn't a need for a car bigger than the Bu at this point....

Zeta would be better served as a Buick or Caddy (not both-yet)

[daves87rs]

Camaro and Corvette are niche products even if Chevrolet sells 100k+ of the Camaros. They'll have little impact on Chevrolet's image if Chevrolet's trucks receive Hybrid technology.

Despite the conspiracy theories, I believe GM ran the numbers over and over again and came up with a losing proposition for the ZETA-based Impala. To build it at a price-point that would undercut the G8 (which is critical to Pontiac's survival) and make it profitable may be impossible. Each Impala sold might have increased the amount necessary to break even on Zeta if it were to be built at a loss.

I agree with Ven on this.

You can only have a few Zetas around....not every brand needs the same platform....

Impy, G8, Caddy, Buick? No way.....wouldn't work-period.

[knightfan26917]

Not to mention angering all of us who have been waiting for the zetas for years.

This "new GM" will continue to anger and alienate its core buyers until GMNA is a bit player in its own home market. If this isn't stopped, it really is the end.

For some of us, the "old GM" started the insults and alienation tactics 20 some years ago, with the then-introduction of the Toyota Nova/Ch#$r%*et Corolla and opted to continue with the Celebrity/Lumina/"monte carlo" in 1995, the former Corsica-turned "malibu" in 1997, and the current Celebrity/Lumina/"impala" starting in 2000.

I'm sorry, but I've been disenchanted for many years now ... and have gotten berated about it by many people. In a way, it's good to know that I'm not alone....yet, well, I dunno.

*sighs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

CDshowcase=www.WRMN1410.com*SATURDAY.january26*2p-5p.and.8p-11p.CENTRAL

"Just a little insight won't make this right" ... All-American Rejects ... 'It Ends Tonight'

[FAPTurbo]

Used Camaro's and Corvette's are starting to look especially attractive these days.

[makfu]

This is very simple, based on everything substantive that has come out of GM: the RWD Zeta Impala is dead. The G8 and the Camaro are just fine. Cadillac is not going to return to FWD for cars. RWD is not dead, but it is never going to be a volume play. This rampant speculation about the death of RWD and GM’s platform plans is merely an extension of peoples own fears and pessimism in the broader economic and national climate and, frankly, folks need to come to terms with that.

I work for a company that is subject to constant speculation with regards to future product plans and I can tell you that the media gets almost nothing right in this regard (unless it has information spoon fed to it, and even then it still gets it wrong). As for Lutz’s comments, well that is just Lutz – he is very good at developing and managing product development processes – but he has a big mouth, loves the sound of his own voice and is always melodramatic. Lutz, however, is just one component of GM’s management, and not the biggest one at that. There is much going on with product development that we don’t (and never will) see.

As for speculation, if GM moves everything to FWD, so the F what!? It will be their loss. I certainly have no plans on buying a FWD Cadillac and Lutz & Co know damn well that’s the case. I will go back to buying BMW’s or somebody else that builds the car I want. If GM management is really that stupid (I don’t think the current management team is) then screw them and GM; this isn’t the 70’s and GM doesn’t get to set trends in a vacuum. Lutz can complain all he wants and pontificate about the impact of CAFE on product plans, but if they don’t produce the cars people want, someway/somehow, well that is just too bad for them (hint: somebody else will).

However, as of right now, GM isn’t blowing it. Quite the opposite; their current product mix is the best it’s been in 35 years and product in the pipeline looks very promising. So, instead of getting all depressed about events that haven't happened yet, wait and see what happens (you might be surprised). And if GM doesn’t make what you want, go buy a car from someone who does (and if nobody does, then restore a classic).