NG Impala Wagon?

[NOS2006]

What's the possibility of this happening? Obviously GM sees a market for a wagon here in the US -- they're about to release the CTS Wagon and seemed to be seriously considering the G8 Wagon. Maybe they didn't think a Wagon would bode well with Pontiac's performance image (despite some of their other vehicles not fitting it well)? Could we see an Impala Maxx or Wagon variant? I don't see why not.

Then again, there's got to be some reason for why Chrysler is canceling the Magnum... and maybe GM looked into that. That's also possible.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

With the G8 wagon being canceled, I'd doubt we'd see a Impala wagon, if it's on Zeta or a stretched Epsilon II.

Not only that, but I don't think one was ever considered in the first place. Wagons are pretty much a novelty item in the United States anymore.

[ZL-1]

I think the CTS Wagon will happen because of wagon's popularity here in Europe.

[Chris_Doane]

What's the possibility of this happening?

Zee-row

[NOS2006]

Anddd case closed.

Will we see any GM full or mid-size wagon (I'd guess Malibu) in the near future?

[hyperv6]

Less than Zero!!

The only reason the CTS wagon may happen is they want it for Europe to be taken as a real car for the European market. They love wagons over there.

We may see a limited number of CTS wagons here but the majortity will go to Europe if they are built.

There is little market in the US for Wagons and the Magnum proved that. Cross overs rule the market and that has not changed.

[Intrepidation]

I can't see any wagon coming from the next Impala or from Holden. If the Magnum couldn't break the perception of wagons 4R3 T3|-| $U(|< 1 \/\/4|\|T |\/|Y G4$ $U(|<1|\|G $UV!1!111 then I doubt anything can.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Will we see any GM full or mid-size wagon (I'd guess Malibu) in the near future?

The only wagons I know of that are coming out of GM are:

• NG Aura/Vectra wagon.
• CTS wagon.
• Saab Sportcombis.

All three will more than likely be sold in the U.S. market. Do you notice the one thing that they all have in common? :AH-HA_wink:

[76ChevyTrucker]

They are all more primarily geared for the European market.

[gm4life]

Yes designed for Europe but will be sold here.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

They are all more primarily geared for the European market.

Exactly.

The primary reason is due to the growth of the European market. Want a wagon to turn a profit in the U.S.? Well, make sure it's primarily geared to the Old World market first to ensure that it will make money, regardless if anyone here buys it or not.

I would imagine that this logic played a role in why we do not get a G8 Sportwagon. There is some reason why GME doesn't want VE/Zeta on it's shores. I wonder why this could be?

Edited January 18, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[LosAngeles]

Maybe the $4-5 gas world we're in now will cause everyone to wonder about wagons again.

GM's financial woes will probably keep that from happening.

Exactly.

The primary reason is due to the growth of the European market. Want a wagon to turn a profit in the U.S.? Well, make sure it's primarily geared to the Old World market first to ensure that it will make money, regardless if anyone here buys it or not.

I would imagine that this logic played a role in why we do not get a G8 Sportwagon. There is some reason why GME doesn't want VE/Zeta on it's shores. I wonder why this could be?

The market for executive cars has been ceded to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes, so all non-premium volume brands have retreated that segment (E, what we know as mid/full-size) in Europe. Hence no more Scorpio, Carlton/Omega, Vel Satis, et al. Only Peugeot's 60x car and the Chrysler 300 remain. But Cadillac wants to go toe-to-toe, so we benefit.

[Sixty8panther]

Zee-row

what are you basing that on?

I too think wagons are WAY overdue for a resrection.

The magnum failed to break the "momy-mobie"/"grampa-buckboard"

preception when gas was $2.25/gallon, HEMI-powered crew cab

Ram 3500s Subrbans were still flying off the shleves.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Wagons? Saab and Cadillac only in North America. Just the way it is, sorry.

[PurdueGuy]

Seemed like the Malibu Maxx did ok, but not great. Personally, I think we will see a return of the wagon - we've already been seeing the return of the hatch for a while now.

[SAmadei]

I can't see any wagon coming from the next Impala or from Holden. If the Magnum couldn't break the perception of wagons 4R3 T3|-| $U(|< 1 \/\/4|\|T |\/|Y G4$ $U(|<1|\|G $UV!1!111 then I doubt anything can.

The Magnum was an hideous wagon. Sure, it had the RWD and V8... but the front was SUV-ugly, its cargo area was small, and the rear treatment was awkward to load. I looked at them many times and wondered how one would put a TV in the back without having to drive around with the goofy hatch way up in the air.

I like wagons, and would love to have a modern replacement for my '95 Caprice... with cylinder deactivation, more gears, or better yet... a hybrid.

I'm not holding my breath, though. I'm sure I'll have to buy a Mercedes.

Stephen

Edited July 21, 2008 by SAmadei

[hyperv6]

There is just no market. Saying they are way over due will not just cut it. Show GM enough buyers and they will do it but you would be lucky to find many in the Chevy demographic.

Only higher end Euro cars are in any demnand and we just get the cumbs of what is left here.

IF you want to sell a wagon it has to be different from the traditional wagon like the PT or HHR.

To make it sell you need to make it cool and if you put two doors on it to make it cool no one in that market will buy.

The CTS will sell here but only in limited numbers and to people who would not be caught dead in a Chevy. Speaking of which I wonder how long till we see a CTS hearse?

With the few wagons that are offered here is is a white elephant in this country. It is not a one world market.

[LosAngeles]

The Magnum was an hideous wagon. Sure, it had the RWD and V8... but the front was SUV-ugly, its cargo area was small, and the rear treatment was awkward to load. I looked at them many times and wondered how one would put a TV in the back without having to drive around with the goofy hatch way up in the air.

I like wagons, and would love to have a modern replacement for my '95 Caprice... with cylinder deactivation, more gears, or better yet... a hybrid.

I'm not holding my breath, though. I'm sure I'll have to buy a Mercedes.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. I felt the Mag made a bold statement. Was it aimed at the wine-and-cheese crowd, probably not.

And I'm honestly still not convinced the hybrid is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There is just no market. Saying they are way over due will not just cut it. Show GM enough buyers and they will do it but you would be lucky to find many in the Chevy demographic.

Only higher end Euro cars are in any demand and we just get the crumbs of what is left here.

IF you want to sell a wagon it has to be different from the traditional wagon like the PT or HHR.

To make it sell you need to make it cool and if you put two doors on it to make it cool no one in that market will buy.

The CTS will sell here but only in limited numbers and to people who would not be caught dead in a Chevy. Speaking of which I wonder how long till we see a CTS hearse?

With the few wagons that are offered here is is a white elephant in this country. It is not a one world market.

Generally, I think it's because the market is currently so sparse, that it hurts those that are left, and the buyers interested in one.

Marketing and these gas price conditions help.

Look what marketing did to switch everyone over to minivans (taller capacity...besides wagons are for your dad!),

then SUVs (minivans are for soccer moms, these are so much cooler...plus they're more profitable for us!!!),

and now hybrids (we the people at Toyota and Honda corner this market, so you really need one...buy today!! Andohyeah, go environm....)

Gas prices pointed everyone back to cars.

Why couldn't the wagon market flourish again right about now?

There won't be a CTS hearse BTW, too small. Look to whatever occurs in the DTS or Lucerne's place whenever that replacement finally comes online. That would have been the place for a 300 to get run (since we have all these 300 limos).

[hyperv6]

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. I felt the Mag made a bold statement. Was it aimed at the wine-and-cheese crowd, probably not.

And I'm honestly still not convinced the hybrid is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Generally, I think it's because the market is currently so sparse, that it hurts those that are left, and the buyers interested in one.

Marketing and these gas price conditions help.

Look what marketing did to switch everyone over to minivans (taller capacity...besides wagons are for your dad!),

then SUVs (minivans are for soccer moms, these are so much cooler...plus they're more profitable for us!!!),

and now hybrids (we the people at Toyota and Honda corner this market, so you really need one...buy today!! Andohyeah, go environm....)

Gas prices pointed everyone back to cars.

Why couldn't the wagon market flourish again right about now?

There won't be a CTS hearse BTW, too small. Look to whatever occurs in the DTS or Lucerne's place whenever that replacement finally comes online. That would have been the place for a 300 to get run (since we have all these 300 limos).

The CTS hearse was a joke!!! :AH-HA_wink: But they can and would be lengthened just as the DTS already is.

Wagons are just not cool and are as well liked in this country. It is a image thing. Europe loved them and Japan is just into the square box concept anymore.

What the Americans like is they can have a fairly compact vehicle with a short nose that is easy to drive and it tall enough to carry large objects. A wagon has a longer nose and is not usally tall enough to carry large objects, long yeas but not large.

The new Ford will be worth watching as it is a lttle wagon and a lot of Minivan. It is kind of a high roof wagon. If it sells well the others will be watching.

But as it is there is no Kingswood estate in the future nor do I see any traditional wagon in the future out side the CTS or a updated HHR.

There is a new market for something that gets good mileage but will carry a hot water heater size box.

[SAmadei]

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. I felt the Mag made a bold statement. Was it aimed at the wine-and-cheese crowd, probably not.

It was a bold statement, but in the end, a wagon is about functionality, not taste. For it's size and weight, the Magnum is not a functional wagon, but is a fashion niche... and that's why it is gone.

IMHO, you're right... not aimed at the wine-and-cheese... but I feel it was aimed squarely at Ma and Pa Pickup/SUV driver... who looked at the cargo capacity and laughed.

Stephen

[SAmadei]

What the Americans like is they can have a fairly compact vehicle with a short nose that is easy to drive and it tall enough to carry large objects. A wagon has a longer nose and is not usally tall enough to carry large objects, long yeas but not large.

Hasn't anyone ever thought to tip large objects onto their side?!? The nice thing about a wagon, is that the roof acts as a shelf... you can put items inside the car... and put larger items on the roof. Putting things on the roof of many SUVs is a PITA, unless you are 9 foot tall.

In my experience, when loading vehicles, you can only go so high. Most people's "stuff" is far to delicate to stack 4 boxes high. You need floor space, not roof space.

Granted, I have a long wagon... but GM has a long history of producing nice wagons of all sizes. Wagons tend to be more aerodynamic, lighter, better on gas, are easier to get into, and tip over less than SUVs.

I also don't see where Americans (outside of the large cities) want a fairly compact vehicle. They wanted Tahoes, Suburbans and Expeditions until a couple months ago when it was obvious that gas prices where here to stay.

The new Ford will be worth watching as it is a lttle wagon and a lot of Minivan. It is kind of a high roof wagon. If it sells well the others will be watching.

Agreed... that looks interesting. Its a wagon from the 1950s.

But as it is there is no Kingswood estate in the future nor do I see any traditional wagon in the future out side the CTS or a updated HHR.

There is a new market for something that gets good mileage but will carry a hot water heater size box.

Yeah, like a V6 G8 Sportwagon.

I realize there is no Kingswood coming... hence I bought my Caprice for a song. Things like the HHR and CTS-W are useless for me. They still have to pass the "does the driver fit" test... and fail.

Stephen

[Oracle of Delphi]

Give me an Olds Vista Cruiser anyday.

[PurdueGuy]

Thought:

Wagon + sliding rear roof panel from the GMC Envoy XUV

[Camino LS6]

I got tired of waiting, so I'm building my own. :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

Yours wil be way cooler than any wagon that will ever be made in 2008

as they have a spine i.e. frame. What good is a utilitarian vehicle

when it's bolted together into one big lump... big, load carrying vehicles

are meant to have a body on frame construction.

[LosAngeles]

Wagons are just not cool and are as well liked in this country.

But to whom are wagons not cool? I think they're the coolest two box vehicles out there. Low slung, slicker than your average bulls--t SUV, by far the best performers (when equipped and tuned as such). They're basically sedans with a SnugTop on the back, lol.

The new Ford will be worth watching as it is a lttle wagon and a lot of Minivan. It is kind of a high roof wagon. If it sells well the others will be watching.

I agree with all but the "lot of minivan" part.

It was a bold statement, but in the end, a wagon is about functionality, not taste. For it's size and weight, the Magnum is not a functional wagon, but is a fashion niche... and that's why it is gone.

IMHO, you're right... not aimed at the wine-and-cheese... but I feel it was aimed squarely at Ma and Pa Pickup/SUV driver... who looked at the cargo capacity and laughed.

I've seen so many Magnums in this town, I couldn't help but think it was a huge success...I guess people got bored quickly in the rest of the country.

And I don't think all estates have to be the greatest family cars on the planet. Some can be aimed at folks with less baggage who want a fun car with extra capacity just in case. Kinda personal grand touring wagons if you will.

I like that the Magnum, Mazda6 wagon, Focus wagon, Jetta wagon, et al, were available while they were. And I look forward to the Flex being a success, as well as the CTS wagon hitting the showrooms. Keeps hope alive, as do the few hatches sold here.

[LosAngeles]

And 68, you must really not like athletic cars to be such a diehard BOF champion.

[SAmadei]

Thought:

Wagon + sliding rear roof panel from the GMC Envoy XUV

Oh, the idea stolen from a 1962 Studebaker?

Stephen

[rkmdogs]

I can't see any wagon coming from the next Impala or from Holden. If the Magnum couldn't break the perception of wagons then I doubt anything can.

The Magnum was a farce as a wagon! It could not hold or haul anything of size or large proportions!

It was a Kammback sedan! AND seating...... count placements on one hand, not what a wagon

should be able to do.

Its only saving grace was that it was RWD!

[Intrepidation]

The Magnum was a farce as a wagon! It could not hold or haul anything of size or large proportions!

It was a Kammback sedan! AND seating...... count placements on one hand, not what a wagon

should be able to do.

Its only saving grace was that it was RWD!

O RLY? CMG owns one as I recall and begs to differ. Way to bring back an old thread. /sarcasm

[67impss]

Me thinks that with the new CAFE std.s a full sized wagon might be in the cards. The lower frontal area allows for a better c/d allowing for higher mpg. A 96 Caprice wgn. beats a C1500 4dr by a mile at 26mpg hi-way like maybe 7-8mpg given the weight is close. Sure could kill a 'burbon in mileage and if given a nice mid sized V6 diesel ???

[rkmdogs]

Less than Zero!!

There is little market in the US for Wagons and the Magnum proved that. Cross overs rule the market and that has not changed.

You must smoke them funny cigareetes!

Go to a DOG SHOW! Go to a HORSE SHOW!

Go to any event where gear needs to be hauled!

When wagons disappeared vans took their place. Now vans

are disappearing, but the need still is there ---- if you know where to look!

[Intrepidation]

He's absolutely right. There's such low demand for wagons and such a stigma against them. People want crossovers. Wagons are a very low percentage of the US car market these days.

[A Horse With No Name]

True, maybe yes...sad...for sure.

At a car show I went to yesterday (that Hell on Wheels thing I was telling you guys about) they had a bunch of old Wagons.

I miss those cars...

And DF, they had an old Mopar wagon from the early 1970's...was neato car...dark blue...loved it.

Chris

[rkmdogs]

He's absolutely right. There's such low demand for wagons and such a stigma against them. People want crossovers. Wagons are a very low percentage of the US car market these days.

Low demand???

Who is kidding who?

People don't buy them because they are not available!! And don't give me the old schtik about

the Magnum --- that was a farce, as a wagon!!

Like I said before --- go where people are using their vehicles to haul stuff, and see what they

want! CUV's and SUV's sell ---- 'cause that's all you can get!

But they sure are not the answer to everybody's needs!

As proof? Try to find a '78-'83 Malibu wagon ---- at a fair market price. Everyone you

find is inflated, because most of them turn into highly desired drag-race cars!

Edited September 21, 2009 by rkmdogs

[Intrepidation]

Low demand???

Who is kidding who?

People don't buy them because they are not available!! And don't give me the old schtik about

the Magnum --- that was a farce, as a wagon!!

Like I said before --- go where people are using their vehicles to haul stuff, and see what they

want! CUV's and SUV's sell ---- 'cause that's all you can get!

But they sure are not the answer to everybody's needs!

As proof? Try to find a '78-'83 Malibu wagon ---- at a fair market price. Everyone you

find is inflated, because most of them turn into highly desired drag-race cars!

Let's look at this in an intelligent manner. How many wagons were there in the 90s? Off the top of my head I can think of Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, Chevy Caprice, Buick Roadmaster, Ford Taurus Taurus, Honda Accord wagon, Buick Century, Ford Escort, Mitsubishi Diamante, Saturn S-Series wagons...

Tell me something: how many of those exist in wagon form now? What's that? None you say? What replaced them you say? CUVs? Why's that? Something about people preferring the higher driving position and not the stigma wagons have? Well how about that.

[SAmadei]

Tell me something: how many of those exist in wagon form now? What's that? None you say? What replaced them you say? CUVs? Why's that? Something about people preferring the higher driving position and not the stigma wagons have? Well how about that.

I can't believe this has come up again.

In the '90s, wagons died out because people could not get a decent sized wagon (With the exception of the low production B-bod triples) with a good engine... gas was cheap, hence they bought SUVs... big Tahoes and Suburbans and Hummer H2s. CUV's are replacing the SUVs, but they aren't far from being wagons again... except that they are too heavy and flip over. Those are features, right?

We wouldn't need the added height if everyone else didn't decide to drive in hulking SUVs... we wouldn't have a stigma if GM didn't build almost 20 years of their 1977 design with a bunch of smogger engines.

It's nearly 2010. Gas is almost 3x the price it was in the '90s. Wagons... if built... and designed well... would be a potential market.

Of course, next year, people will point to the CTS wagon as a dismal failure and proof that nobody wants wagons (well, I doubt more than a few want a $40K+ mini-wagon).

But hey... GM, Ford and Toyota know it all, right? Its 1982... Nobody wants a LITTLE van. Do you see them on the road? No, because nobody wants them. Its not like they were never made... such as the VW Bus... but Chrysler was certainly glad they locked up the whole market for nearly a quarter century.

[Intrepidation]

Minivans aren;t exactly mini. That term has always bothered me. A better example would be MPVs like the Eagle summit. There used to be a few of them on teh market. Now there's just the Mazda5 and that hasn't exactly set the sales charts on fire.

Go ask a a person who actually owns an SUV or a CUV why they chose it over a minivan or wagon. They'll all say the same thing. Minivans = uncool and they all like the commanding driving position you can't get in a wagon. Minivan owners will tell you they bought the minivan because it's more practical than even the giant wagons of yore. I've sat in those pathetic trunk seats in Country Squires, while they were neat they were hardly comfortable.

I like wagons, but I know I and the rest of us who like them are in the minority. People didn't stop buying wagons because the companies wanted them to buy SUVs instead, they bought the SUVs because they liked them better. Remember how we go on and on about how Detroit built SUVs more than small cars because that's what people wanted at the time? That argument applies here too.

[bobo]

The old Ford Focus wagon was pretty nice, but unfortunately did not survive the redo. Subaru has always been successful with wagons, but not everybody needs AWD. Volvos always had a lot of wagons but are too expensive for most people.

The reality is that there is a niche market for wagons, but most people would rather have crossovers.

[Intrepidation]

The reality is that there is a niche market for wagons, but most people would rather have crossovers.

[rkmdogs]

It was a bold statement, but in the end, a wagon is about functionality, not taste. For it's size and weight, the Magnum is not a functional wagon, but is a fashion niche... and that's why it is gone.

IMHO, you're right... not aimed at the wine-and-cheese... but I feel it was aimed squarely at Ma and Pa Pickup/SUV driver... who looked at the cargo capacity and laughed.

Stephen

A double Amen!

I don't know where this crowd hangs out, but it sure cannot be at a place where people bring things!

(Like a tailgate party, or some athletic activity).

Go to those parking lots and see what folks are driving --- Vans, mini-vans, SUVs, some CUVs,pick-up trucks with trailers, older full-size wagons,

but very few sedans! They want vehicles that can haul bulky, odd-shaped stuff!--Lots of it!

I guess that is not on the agenda for the wine and cheese crowd.....

Edited October 3, 2009 by rkmdogs

[Intrepidation]

Go to those parking lots and see what folks are driving --- Vans, mini-vans, SUVs, some CUVs,pick-up trucks with trailers,

Funny that. That statement right there is why you don't see many wagons on sale. Because most people prefer commanding view/sense of security of an SUV or CUV and minivans haul more stuff inside than anything. Wagons didn't magically disappear because the mean ol' companies didn't want people to own them. People wanted the Tahoe and Suburban more than the Caprice wagon, so when it was replaced by the W-body Impala they didn't bother.

Like I've said, I like wagons. You just don't seem to get that not many people like you and me like them compared to the people would would rather by the aforementioned alternatives, and therefore you will not see millions of wagons coming from companies in the future. It'll be a niche market with a few players.

[rkmdogs]

Funny that. That statement right there is why you don't see many wagons on sale. Because most people prefer commanding view/sense of security of an SUV or CUV and minivans haul more stuff inside than anything. Wagons didn't magically disappear because the mean ol' companies didn't want people to own them. People wanted the Tahoe and Suburban more than the Caprice wagon, so when it was replaced by the W-body Impala they didn't bother.

Like I've said, I like wagons. You just don't seem to get that not many people like you and me like them compared to the people would would rather by the aforementioned alternatives, and therefore you will not see millions of wagons coming from companies in the future. It'll be a niche market with a few players.

Then pray tell why does this blog tout the line that mini-vans are dead?

Try telling that to the people who have bought T & C's, Caravans, Hondas, Toyotas, and even Kias!

Over a million sold! Ford is trying to get back into this market, but GM still has its head in the sand,

so to speak.

The people at these events with SUV's and CUVs have them, because that is all that was available.

Full-size vans have become stigmatized as church or work buses, and most of them will not fit

in the down-sized garages being built in the new houses!

It also is a matter of perspective. Urban dwellers like to think---- smaller is better. Try getting out

in the country, where distance is reported in time to drive instead of miles!

Those folks appreciate the bigger rides. Start looking at rural as well as cosmopolitan.

[CanadianBacon94]

you know some people buy suv's for the cargo space

[hyperv6]

Wagons would fail as a Yoder toter. You can get more Amish and their forbidden contraband in a Van vs a wagon. They love the extended full size vans. LOL!

[hyperv6]

Wagons would fail as a Yoder toter. You can get more Amish and their forbidden contraband in a Van vs a wagon. They love the extended full size vans. LOL!

Just saw a note that BMW may pull the 5 series wagon since they have that new hatch/car/what ever you want to call it now. They also pointed out the Audi A4 was one of the best selling wagons and it was selling at almost 4,000 units per year. Just does not look like there is much demand here for a tradistional wagon even if it is a practical one.

Only if they sell at the higher price of a Benz do they make it resonable to sell here. I wonder how long the CTS will survive?

[PurdueGuy]

Go ask a a person who actually owns an SUV or a CUV why they chose it over a minivan or wagon. They'll all say the same thing. Minivans = uncool and they all like the commanding driving position you can't get in a wagon.

Be careful lumping everyone together like that. I own an SUV. I didn't buy it over a minivan because minivans are uncool. I bought it over a minivan because a mininvan wouldn't stand any more of a chance on the backroads in the mountains around here than one of our Saturn S-Series would. My suburban, however, is perfectly happy chugging along the backroads or up a mountain gravel road. It also has more hauling space than a minivan.