Another Toyota Recall

[Nodnarb]

Recall of 1.27 Million Cars Mars Toyota's Reputation
The Wall Street Journal 10/18/05
author: Jathon Sapsford
(Copyright © 2005, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)
TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp.'s stellar reputation for quality took a drubbing with the announcement of a major recall of 1.27 million vehicles because of a faulty light switch on the steering column.

Coming on the eve of the Tokyo Motor Show, an event dominated by Toyota, the recall will affect 16 different models, including the Corolla sedan and the RAV4 sport-utility vehicle. Most of the recall will affect customers in Japan, but will also affect 137,000 vehicles exported to markets including Singapore, Australia and Thailand. Toyota said the recall will cost the company 14.7 billion yen, or roughly $128 million.

Toyota, Japan's largest car maker by sales, has long had a reputation as one of the world's most quality-conscious companies, consistently winning top accolades from such arbiters as J.D. Power & Associates for its ability to make cars that run longer with fewer problems. But the company has been rushing to answer surging demand for its products in markets at home and abroad by building a slew of new factories all over the world.

Toyota's senior managers have repeatedly expressed concern over how the company will keep a handle on quality as the company produces everything from mini-cars in Eastern Europe to minivans in Thailand to large pickup trucks in Texas.

Because of our bigger size, so-called big-company disease has become insipient at our company, said Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe at a conference in Tokyo, before the recall was announced. We are not immune to those problems.

Toyota said it would recall cars manufactured between 2000 and 2002. The problem is with the light switch on the steering column of some right-hand drive cars, most of them sold exclusively in the Japanese market. Company officials said that with time, the switch would grow faulty and the headlights would begin to flicker, and in some cases no longer work.

Toyota said the move isn't likely to have a major impact on its earnings. But the move is a second blow to its reputation, coming only a few days after the company said that it would recall 160,000 of its popular Prius sedan, a low-emission, fuel-efficient gasoline-electric hybrid that is growing in popularity along with the rise in energy costs.

The most recent recall, filed with Japan's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport, was the biggest on record for a Japanese auto maker. The previous record was held by Nissan Motor Co. which in 1996 recalled 1.04 million cars due to a defect related to car radios.

So while not in the US, still the biggest recall Japan has ever seen.

[ToniCipriani]

You'll know how hard the "automotive journalists" will try to hide this...

[Cremazie]

You'll know how hard the "automotive journalists" will try to hide this...

[post="30641"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

hide what? http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

[ToniCipriani]

...from the sheep... *cough**cough* consumers *cough*

[sciguy_0504]

Reminds me of GM's brakelight problem.

[The O.C.]

...from the sheep... *cough**cough* consumers *cough*

[post="30645"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Give me a break....it's a friggin' light switch....and NOT safety related.

You know....you guys and the guys on the other Toyota-bashing posts are JUST as bad to Toyota as you claim the media is to GM.

It's quite hypocritcal......and childish.....and I may not be any sort of "Toyota-lover", but I'm gettin' tired of it.....

(...but the posts STILL make for good entertainment)

:blink:

[Cremazie]

Give me a break....it's a friggin' light switch....and NOT safety related.

You know....you guys and the guys on the other Toyota-bashing posts are JUST as bad to Toyota as you claim the media is to GM.

It's quite hypocritcal......and childish.....and I may not be any sort of "Toyota-lover", but I'm gettin' tired of it.....

(...but the posts STILL make for good entertainment)

:blink:

[post="30659"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Come on, let us have some fun! :o

[The O.C.]

Come on, let us have some fun!  :o

[post="30661"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh, I understand......

But it seems way disjointed when it comes to Toyota compared to the "fun" we all have with Ford, DCX, and the other imports.....

<_<

If we're gonna have fun at another company's expense, let's pick something worth bitchin' about......NOT a light-switch recall (for example.)

:CG_all:

[CSpec]

Before anyone starts, why would the Big Bad Media Ogre report on this? We don't hear about Opel recalls do we?

[packardlust]

In what eternally bright universe would flickering or no headlights not be a safety concern. This is a major safety concern. If you have ever drivin a car with electrical problems, the problem become apparent very quickly as the sun sets.

[BrewSwillis]

Give me a break....it's a friggin' light switch....and NOT safety related.

You know....you guys and the guys on the other Toyota-bashing posts are JUST as bad to Toyota as you claim the media is to GM.

It's quite hypocritcal......and childish.....and I may not be any sort of "Toyota-lover", but I'm gettin' tired of it.....

(...but the posts STILL make for good entertainment)

:blink:

[post="30659"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:withstupid:

Yeah, because 1.27 million people driving around in the dark with no headlights doesn't have anything to do with safety. :alcoholic:

[balthazar]

....you guys and the guys on the other Toyota-bashing posts are JUST as bad to Toyota as you claim the media is to GM.

There is a tremendous difference between a post on a message board by a private citizen and a published article seen via print & the internet by a million (or 2) people by a so-called 'journalist'. Our few inaudible whispers are nothing to the "truth" of the published word.

[VenSeattle]

Before anyone starts, why would the Big Bad Media Ogre report on this? We don't hear about Opel recalls do we?

[post="30714"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This doesn't impact US buyers, but

1) The Toyota brand is sold in the US (unlike Opel)
2) Toyota brand is the most popular Japanese brand/company in the US
3) The world is currently turning its attention to Tokyo for the show, so any local breaking news will be exploited.
4) "Perception vs Reality" is under fire. Everyone is watching everyone.

[siegen]

A faulty switch may not be a "big" deal, but it is when it happens to so many vehicles. Toyota should have discovered this problem and fixed it before any of the cars hit the showroom. Edited October 19, 2005 by siegen

[Cory Wolfe]

Faulty light switch, eh? Wonder when the one on my GA will be recalled? Since its faulty... and causes me to blind people and/or not see something that I would have had it not been faulty. Huh? :huh: :lol: :D I'm joking; chill. :P Anyways, I agree with Balthy and Ven.

[Cremazie]

This doesn't impact US buyers, but

1) The Toyota brand is sold in the US (unlike Opel)
2) Toyota brand is the most popular Japanese brand/company in the US
3) The world is currently turning its attention to Tokyo for the show, so any local breaking news will be exploited.
4) "Perception vs Reality" is under fire. Everyone is watching everyone.

[post="30777"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

One more thing, Toyota is "known" for reliability.

[CSpec]

This doesn't impact US buyers, but

1) The Toyota brand is sold in the US (unlike Opel)
2) Toyota brand is the most popular Japanese brand/company in the US
3) The world is currently turning its attention to Tokyo for the show, so any local breaking news will be exploited.
4) "Perception vs Reality" is under fire. Everyone is watching everyone.

[post="30777"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So? The only reason any recalls gets wide media coverage is to alert owners of the problem.

[VenSeattle]

So? The only reason any recalls gets wide media coverage is to alert owners of the problem.

[post="30850"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hah! Don't kid yourself. That is not the ONLY reason recalls get media coverage. The manufacturers can do that by themselves.

That's like saying Bankruptcy announcements are only reported to notify the current stock holders.

The media is not that noble.

[Flybrian]

So? The only reason any recalls gets wide media coverage is to alert owners of the problem.

[post="30850"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Contrast that with the numerous mentions in the auto press about the two Cobalts being recalled for headlamp glass issues.

[regfootball]

One more thing, Toyota is "known" for reliability.

[post="30800"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

how reliable is a stalled prius or a corolla without lights? especially on a zero degree winter night with your kid in the back? Edited October 19, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Hah! Don't kid yourself. That is not the ONLY reason recalls get media coverage. The manufacturers can do that by themselves.

That's like saying Bankruptcy announcements are only reported to notify the current stock holders.

The media is not that noble.

[post="30852"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

if this had been GM or Ford, it would have been plastered all over the news, the only thing the person watching tv remembers is the brand name, the number of vehicles and 'recall'.

[VenSeattle]

how reliable is a stalled prius or a corolla without lights?  especially on a zero degree winter night with your kid in the back?

[post="30968"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well... if stalled out on a hill, it should at least keep moving you forward :P :lol:

[cmattson]

Here's what I find extremely interesting:
(1) The article title: "Recall of 1.27 Million Cars Mars Toyota's Reputation"
The Wall Street Journal 10/18/05
(2) The first line of the artlcie: "Toyota Motor Corp.'s stellar reputation for quality took a drubbing with the announcement of a major recall of 1.27 million vehicles because of a faulty light switch on the steering column."

Toyota will start to loose it's perceived quality advantage when the public starts to see articles that call into question how reliable Toyota cars really are. Personally, I think Toyota's been getting a free ride on quality: while they aren't making lousy vehicles, their reputation far exceeds their actual quality. When you read reviews like:

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phe...1e_20050811.htm

and

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyea...erd/index1.html

When you have noticably sub-par quality on Toyota's current-generation vehicles (and flagship ones at that), you start to wonder when the general perception will start to change. Perhaps a few more recalls will fill the task.

[BrewSwillis]

Well... if stalled out on a hill, it should at least keep moving you forward  :P  :lol:

[post="30976"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Depends what side of the hill you stall on! :P

[evok]

Of course no one here actually choose to look into the Prius "Stalling" recall. Yes there is a glitch in the Prius powertrain so I will not skirt around that. The driveability issue in talking with Toyota is the gas engine kicks off. A warning light alerts the driver that the batteries are not being charged. The driver chooses to ignor the warning and proceeds to drive under battery power only. There is about a 20 mile or so range. Instead of pulling over or going directly to a dealer or service station the driver goes along their merry way. In the end the vehicle looses power and stalls because the batteries have no more power. Sort of sound like running out of gas to me! I definitly can see Larry David doing this. This would make for a great Curb Your Enthusiasm episode.

[BrewSwillis]

Sort of sound like running out of gas to me! 

[post="31036"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah, but instead of actually running out of gas......Toyota says there's a software problem that can be fixed by a reprogramming and having some waterproof grease applied to some electronics?? :blink: .....which in turn "could happen to any vehicle"??

Why is it that nothing that officially comes from Toyota, sounds like it's the whole truth?

[Endo]

Why is it that nothing that officially comes from Toyota, sounds like it's the whole truth?

[post="31116"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nothing that comes from a large corporation sounds like the whole truth. They all have people on their payroll who's sole job is to make the company look good.

[evok]

Yeah, but instead of actually running out of gas......Toyota says there's a software problem that can be fixed by a reprogramming and having some waterproof grease applied to some electronics??   :blink:  .....which in turn "could happen to any vehicle"??

Why is it that nothing that officially comes from Toyota, sounds like it's the whole truth?

[post="31116"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Really what is a company, be it any company to say. Obviously there is a problem that their customers appear to be ignoring and getting stuck. I think the language of the PR is very poor but companies have their reasons for taking such action. How do you say we screwed up and our customers are stupid?

Companys pull the trigger and spend a couple million dollars fixing the problem through a recall than face potential litigation down the road either through class action suits or those from ambulance chasers. Also their is a customer satisfaction issue at stake particulary image consious companies like Toyota. Better than bad press of denying or ignoring a problem.

I am sure Toyota does not want another sludge issue to rise again. Edited October 19, 2005 by evok

[CaddyXLR-V]

Really what is a company, be it any company to say.  Obviously there is a problem that their customers appear to be ignoring and getting stuck.  I think the language of the PR is very poor but companies have their reasons for taking such action.  How do you say we screwed up and our customers are stupid?

Companys pull the trigger and spend a couple million dollars fixing the problem through a recall than face potential litigation down the road either through class action suits or those from ambulance chasers.  Also their is a customer satisfaction issue at stake particulary image consious companies like Toyota.  Better than bad press of denying or ignoring a problem.

I am sure Toyota does not want another sludge issue to rise again.

[post="31154"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This confirms it, Toyota customers are stupid. :P

[BrewSwillis]

But all I want to know is how waterproof grease fixes a software problem?? .....that can occur on any vehicle??

:bs:

[evok]

But all I want to know is how waterproof grease fixes a software problem?? .....that can occur on any vehicle??

:bs:

[post="31203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It appears that there are two issues that caused the battery drain issue.

1) software.

2) h20 in an electrical connection.

After reviewing this document it appears it is not a NHTSA safety recall but a service campaign.

http://199.79.180.162/prepos/files/Artemis...05029-22129.PDF

BrewSwillis, your thoughts? Edited October 21, 2005 by evok

[RichW5]

There is a simple solution to this problem, actually two solutions.

1. Arizona and a few other states have dark sky's laws. These laws prohibit city street lights and business from having lighted signs. Sedona Arizona is an example. The Toyota's with defective lights could be sold there and be legal. They would comply with "Dark Sky's" and provide entertainment as they drive around smashing into each other.

2. Sell these cars to elderly people that are afraid to drive after dark. These "customers" can be found in any over "55" comunity.

Stalling engines might also be good. It would remind the driver to go and have his/her pacemaker checked. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

[evok]

It appears that there are two issues that caused the battery drain issue.

1) software.

2) h20 in an electrical connection.

After reviewing this document it appears it is not a NHTSA safety recall but a service campaign.

http://199.79.180.162/prepos/files/Artemis...05029-22129.PDF

[post="31211"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BrewSwillis your thoughts?

[Guest Josh]

I think it's just popular Toyota wording. To issue a "recall" per the NHTSB's own words, then to have Toyota say "nah we just need to reprogram the software and put this nice sealant on your lines will certainly fix the issue" is a bit fishy, dontcha think, Evok?

[evok]

I think it's just popular Toyota wording. To issue a "recall" per the NHTSB's own words, then to have Toyota say "nah we just need to reprogram the software and put this nice sealant on your lines will certainly fix the issue" is a bit fishy, dontcha think, Evok?

[post="32030"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your statements are confusing. I provided a link with NHTSA's determination of the Prius issue. NHTSA did not determine that the issue was safety related though Toyota took action to correct 2 problems that lead to the gas engine to stall.

[BrewSwillis]

BrewSwillis your thoughts?

[post="31946"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In its August 26, 2005 response to ODI's information request, Toyota identified various conditions that could cause the subject vehicles to experience a gas engine stall. If this happens, the driver is alerted by an audible sound and various warning lights. The vehicle will continue to operate in the electric mode and the electrically-powered brake and steering operation will continue to function normally.

Analysis of the warranty data indicated that over 97% of vehicles experiencing a gas engine stall resulted from an issue with the program logic in the electronic control module (ECM) system, which may cause the ECM system to not start the gas engine when required. As a result, the vehicle will enter the limited operation mode described above. The majority of the ODI complaints also indicated that the driver experienced this condition in conjunction with the engine stall.

During October 2005, Toyota informed ODI that it woula: initiate a special service campaign (SSC) to reprogram the ECM software on approximately 75,000 MY 2004 and early 2005 subject vehicles to address the gas engine stalling condition. During this SSC, dealers will also apply special dielectric grease to a transaxle connector to prevent water intrusion which may also cause similar limited operation conditions. Baised on ODI's analysis, this remedy should address most of the incidents resulting in a limited operation mode.

Sounds like they just asked Toyota what the problem was......and Toyota said they "identified various conditions that could cause the subject vehicles to experience a gas engine stall." Then it says something about "analysis of warranty data" led them to believe it was 97% software issues.....but it doesn't say who did the analysis of the data. Was it Toyota or ODI?? I guess the grease was for the other 3%, huh?

I don't know a whole lot about the Toyota hybrid system, but I have to believe there would be occasions where you would have no, or very little battery power, and a gas engine stall could be a major safety hazard with no backup electric motor to steer you to safety. I could be wrong though, and maybe you always have some batery power for when the car stalls.

[evok]

Sounds like they just asked Toyota what the problem was......and Toyota said they "identified various conditions that could cause the subject vehicles to experience a gas engine stall." Then it says something about "analysis of warranty data" led them to believe it was 97% software issues.....but it doesn't say who did the analysis of the data.  Was it Toyota or ODI??  I guess the grease was for the other 3%, huh?

I don't know a whole lot about the Toyota hybrid system, but I have to believe there would be occasions where you would have no, or very little battery power, and a gas engine stall could be a major safety hazard with no backup electric motor to steer you to safety.  I could be wrong though, and maybe you always have some batery power for when the car stalls.

[post="32074"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That was just a summary of ODI's finding. NHTSA's website published more material from the investigation but is a pain in the neck to go through and link. If I get time later I will dig into it further. The warranty claims should be burried on the site somewhere.

[cmattson]

The driveability issue in talking with Toyota is the gas engine kicks off. A warning light alerts the driver that the batteries are not being charged. The driver chooses to ignor the warning and proceeds to drive under battery power only. There is about a 20 mile or so range. Instead of pulling over or going directly to a dealer or service station the driver goes along their merry way. In the end the vehicle looses power and stalls because the batteries have no more power.

Usually I agree with you on almost everything Evok, but on this one I simply cannot. Ever spent an hour in rush-hour traffic? Perhaps you are a female alone on the highway? Perhaps it's nighttime - and you are in a bad spot in town? I can pick scenario after scenario where pulling over or traveling to a service station isn't a desireable option. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the battery-only option available upto a certain speed (like 20mph)? If I'm doing 55-65 on the freeway, losing the gasoline motor and having electric-power-only-up-to 20mph isn't an appealing option. Lastly, the article clearly states that: "the vehicle shut down at the same time thet they felt the gas engine stalled". That tells me that the vehicle died - with no power. Sure, they could restart it and run on battery only, but again, that isn't a very viable option on the interstate. Toyota is clearly putting makeup on a pig here.

[evok]

Usually I agree with you on almost everything Evok, but on this one I simply cannot.  Ever spent an hour in rush-hour traffic?  Perhaps you are a female alone on the highway?  Perhaps it's nighttime - and you are in a bad spot in town?  I can pick scenario after scenario where pulling over or traveling to a service station isn't a desireable option. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the battery-only option available upto a certain speed (like 20mph)?  If I'm doing 55-65 on the freeway, losing the gasoline motor and having electric-power-only-up-to 20mph isn't an appealing option.  Lastly, the article clearly states that: "the vehicle shut down at the same time thet they felt the gas engine stalled".  That tells me that the vehicle died - with no power.  Sure, they could restart it and run on battery only, but again, that isn't a very viable option on the interstate.  Toyota is clearly putting makeup on a pig here.

[post="32102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I do not know those answers on how the system works. But based upon ODI's summary of their findings they did not see it as a safety issue. The information is available online if you choose to dig through it and see the actual Toyota data submitted to ODI to analyze. I would have to assume that if the actual issue was vehicle stalling versus gas engine stalling, NHTSA would have taken further action to have the vehicles recalled under a safety campaign. That was not the case here.

In the summary I post, the first paragraph discusses the allegations that lead to the opening of the investigation. It would seem based upon ODI's decision that the allegations were not exactly valid and told the whole story. But we would have to dig through their website to get at the facts. It is not exactly user friendly.