More Zeta : Crewman Ute as GMC

[ZL-1]

If this is the writing on the wall, some of those Chrysler products are looking good, but likely I will be skipping right to Mercedes.

The Chrysler products that apparently will have V6s instead of HEMIs? Linkitypoo

Edited January 22, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

The Chrysler products that apparently will have V6s instead of HEMIs? Linkitypoo

Odd. All of the tech that they spout off about in that article for the v6s could just as easily apply to a V8.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Maybe there was an under the table deal to destroy the V8 as part of the CAFE regs.

Or maybe Press truly will make Chrysler a Toyota with an american badege.

Or maybe too many people connotate V8 with anti-green (Doubtful, since MOST people are too ignorant to even know what's under the hood of their own car)

I don't know.... But I don't like it at all. All of te things that were going to give Detroit a fighting chance at coming back were apparently the target of CAFE.

No more performance... No more uniquely american designs... No more comfortable cars or capable SUVs... etc.

I'm thinking more and more that Bob Lutz quote about CAFE being punitive was entirely accurate. Detroit was showing so signs of major life, so the anit-Detroit rose up and legislated them out of existence. (Don't worry, the fallout won't be felt for a few more years)

[ZL-1]

Odd. All of the tech that they spout off about in that article for the v6s could just as easily apply to a V8.

Yes, but one has to balance fuel economy, performance, and cost. Maybe the conclusion is V6s with all that tech can deliver better balance between those 3 factors.

[Camino LS6]

Yes, but one has to balance fuel economy, performance, and cost. Maybe the conclusion is V6s with all that tech can deliver better balance between those 3 factors.

It won't deliver what I want, so hopefully afew good V8 zetas will get through this mess and make it to market.

[SAmadei]

The Chrysler products that apparently will have V6s instead of HEMIs? Linkitypoo

I don't mind sixes. Most of my cars have sixes. BMWs get by fine with sixes.

I really wouldn't mind if Chrysler or GM would sell me a Challenger or Camaro as a rolling chassis (At a reasonable price). I'll drop in the LSX 454 crate engine coming later this year myself... and back it up with an 6 speed manual or 7 or 8 speed auto. Then I'd be totally out of CAFE's way.

I can reengineer a bad engine choice... I could likely engineer a sedan into a coupe... but I haven't figured out how to convert FWD to RWD.

Quite frankly, the way the American auto business is going, its looking better and better to buy a reproduction '69 Camaro from C.A.R.S., and build my own car. Hopefully, they'll start building Chevelles before long, for us bigger guys.

[SuperSport623]

RWD out of a FWD car isnt that hard... it takes alot of work..theres a few V8 RWD focuses (foci?) around long island, and they have full tube chassis... another option some go with is an S10 frame with a car body dropped on it

[Camino LS6]

Jon Moss converted a Monte Carlo to RWD when he was running GMPD.

And, I wouldn't be at all surprised if GM and Chrysler sell Challenger and Camaro bodies in white. Now, making them legal for the road is another matter entirely. But you could build a killer race car.

[Duncan]

My view is fairly simple: if you want to get people out of SUVs, give them cars that will do what the SUVs can do. You know, things like towing, carrying seven people, and being able to get out of their own way.

Midsize wagons can do that. The final piece of the puzzle, of course, is all-wheel drive - that gets the rest of the unconverted, along with the much-improved gas mileage inherent in a car chassis.

Granted, full-size SUVs and trucks aren't going away any time soon - they've been popular forever for people who can't get by without them. But it doesn't take much digging to figure out that as soon as the big three started dropping their midsize rear-drive wagons (remember the Cutlass Cruiser? the LTD Squire? the LeBaron T&C?), customers bought the next best thing: midsize SUVs. The fact that they also offered four-wheel-drive was a bonus. Cheap gas through much of the late '80s and '90s meant that there was no real drawback.

That, obviously, has changed recently. Small cars are getting popular again, and sales of midsize SUVs are beginning to slacken as everyone gets used to three bucks and up for a gallon of gas. My point: MIDSIZE WAGONS ARE DUE FOR A COMEBACK.

If people will buy lame compromise wagons like the Subaru Outback, isn't there an easy market for something similar with real power and decent fuel economy?

I think Chrysler is being short-sighted in discontinuing the Magnum (and, apparently, axing the Hemi too!). I think Ford is insane for not having continued development of the DEW98 (Lincoln LS/Jag S-Type) platform for higher-volume models. And I think GM will give away any shot they might have had at retaking the top spot in North American sales if they decide to cut the Zeta short.

Like many others on this board, I want to buy a Camaro when it finally comes out. At first, it was because I wanted to treat myself to a real performance car (after many years of "settling" for economical sedans). Then I saw it as a way to support the country's auto industry. By this point, I'm beginning to see it as almost a requirement to get GM to wake up and realize WHO THE HELL THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE.

CAFE is bad legislation, true. I'm not worried about that, though - once masses of people in the auto industry start losing their jobs, CAFE will go away pretty quickly. By that point, though, the damage may be pretty severe, and one of the Big Three - ANY one of them - might be gone as we know it.

As for GM Europe taking over GM? Good try, but they'll never understand the North American market. All I want from GME is their diesel tech - and even that can be borrowed from Isuzu, so no big deal.

[Camino LS6]

Absolutely agreed on the wagons and AWD, I've been saying this for years.

I must also agree about GME - we seen the Europeans inability to understand the US market graphically demonstrated to us quite recently. For them to have a hand in determining the product for North America is foolhardy.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Amen Duncan!!! While I prefer trucks/suvs to cars, it doesn't mean that I won't buy a car if it can do what I need/ask of it. With gas prices on the rise, I may not be able to afford both the monthly payment AND the weekly gas costs of a full-size pickup (what I really want). The Pontiac G8 Sportwagon would have definitely been high up on my shopping list, and most likely parked in my garage, when I am in the market again (summer/fall of 2009). GM has given up on a potential market without testing the water for themselves (just because Dodge is giving up on the Magnum doesn't mean GM can;t take over the market).

My view is fairly simple: if you want to get people out of SUVs, give them cars that will do what the SUVs can do. You know, things like towing, carrying seven people, and being able to get out of their own way.

Midsize wagons can do that. The final piece of the puzzle, of course, is all-wheel drive - that gets the rest of the unconverted, along with the much-improved gas mileage inherent in a car chassis.

Granted, full-size SUVs and trucks aren't going away any time soon - they've been popular forever for people who can't get by without them. But it doesn't take much digging to figure out that as soon as the big three started dropping their midsize rear-drive wagons (remember the Cutlass Cruiser? the LTD Squire? the LeBaron T&C?), customers bought the next best thing: midsize SUVs. The fact that they also offered four-wheel-drive was a bonus. Cheap gas through much of the late '80s and '90s meant that there was no real drawback.

That, obviously, has changed recently. Small cars are getting popular again, and sales of midsize SUVs are beginning to slacken as everyone gets used to three bucks and up for a gallon of gas. My point: MIDSIZE WAGONS ARE DUE FOR A COMEBACK.

If people will buy lame compromise wagons like the Subaru Outback, isn't there an easy market for something similar with real power and decent fuel economy?

I think Chrysler is being short-sighted in discontinuing the Magnum (and, apparently, axing the Hemi too!). I think Ford is insane for not having continued development of the DEW98 (Lincoln LS/Jag S-Type) platform for higher-volume models. And I think GM will give away any shot they might have had at retaking the top spot in North American sales if they decide to cut the Zeta short.

Like many others on this board, I want to buy a Camaro when it finally comes out. At first, it was because I wanted to treat myself to a real performance car (after many years of "settling" for economical sedans). Then I saw it as a way to support the country's auto industry. By this point, I'm beginning to see it as almost a requirement to get GM to wake up and realize WHO THE HELL THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE.

CAFE is bad legislation, true. I'm not worried about that, though - once masses of people in the auto industry start losing their jobs, CAFE will go away pretty quickly. By that point, though, the damage may be pretty severe, and one of the Big Three - ANY one of them - might be gone as we know it.

As for GM Europe taking over GM? Good try, but they'll never understand the North American market. All I want from GME is their diesel tech - and even that can be borrowed from Isuzu, so no big deal.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't mind sixes. Most of my cars have sixes. BMWs get by fine with sixes.

I really wouldn't mind if Chrysler or GM would sell me a Challenger or Camaro as a rolling chassis (At a reasonable price). I'll drop in the LSX 454 crate engine coming later this year myself... and back it up with an 6 speed manual or 7 or 8 speed auto. Then I'd be totally out of CAFE's way.

I can reengineer a bad engine choice... I could likely engineer a sedan into a coupe... but I haven't figured out how to convert FWD to RWD.

Quite frankly, the way the American auto business is going, its looking better and better to buy a reproduction '69 Camaro from C.A.R.S., and build my own car. Hopefully, they'll start building Chevelles before long, for us bigger guys.

QFT!

Welcome to C&G!

[thegriffon]

Amen Duncan!!! While I prefer trucks/suvs to cars, it doesn't mean that I won't buy a car if it can do what I need/ask of it. With gas prices on the rise, I may not be able to afford both the monthly payment AND the weekly gas costs of a full-size pickup (what I really want). The Pontiac G8 Sportwagon would have definitely been high up on my shopping list, and most likely parked in my garage, when I am in the market again (summer/fall of 2009). GM has given up on a potential market without testing the water for themselves (just because Dodge is giving up on the Magnum doesn't mean GM can't take over the market).

So tell them, there are plenty of avenues for this: GMnext.com, the fastlane blog, your local pontiac dealer, the pontiac website even has a feedback form for new product suggestions. Point out the actual monthly sales figures for the Magnum (about 20% of Dodge large car sales in 2007) and remind them that this market will soon be going begging. $120 million on 30,000 cars a year for 4 years is only $1000 a car, and given that homologation of the wagon should not cost anywhere near that much (exactly what extra work needs to be done that hasn't already been done for the sedan) you don't even need to sell anywhere near that many to justify the cost. IF PCS can be believed, GM management is being deliberately and maliciously misled.

[Z-06]

So tell them, there are plenty of avenues for this: GMnext.com, the fastlane blog, your local pontiac dealer, the pontiac website even has a feedback form for new product suggestions. Point out the actual monthly sales figures for the Magnum (about 20% of Dodge large car sales in 2007) and remind them that this market will soon be going begging. $120 million on 30,000 cars a year for 4 years is only $1000 a car, and given that homologation of the wagon should not cost anywhere near that much (exactly what extra work needs to be done that hasn't already been done for the sedan) you don't even need to sell anywhere near that many to justify the cost. IF PCS can be believed, GM management is being deliberately and maliciously misled.

You know why they do not want a Zeta wagon right? Because EPII Saturn Aura is coming with a wagon. Talk about intra GM fighting and killing.

If they can make a business case for not having a wagon for Pontiac, the same should apply to Saturn, regardless of which wheels are driving the vehicle.

[Duncan]

You know why they do not want a Zeta wagon right? Because EPII Saturn Aura is coming with a wagon. Talk about intra GM fighting and killing.

If they can make a business case for not having a wagon for Pontiac, the same should apply to Saturn, regardless of which wheels are driving the vehicle.

Yes - a wagon that most likely won't have any AWD option, and that won't tow more than a tiny U-Haul trailer.

Not that I mind smaller wagons, but isn't that why Saturn has the Vue in the first place? And look how well the L-series wagons did...

Bad move, Saturn. Or Opel - whoever's running the show.