Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO DEAD

[ZL-1]

The Australian market is too small for that, I would think.

Maybe not, if all of it is folded into a single company distributing all the vehicles (call it GM Australia, for example). Just a thought that crossed my mind...

Edited January 19, 2008 by ZL-1

[thegriffon]

There is already a single company distributing all the vehicles—it's called GM Holden. Hummer, Saab Australia are and soon Cadillac Australia will be Holden divisions, just as Chevrolet, Pontiac-GMC, Cadillac etc. are in the US. Australia supports many brands in low volume. Adding Chevrolet for economy models, keeping Holden for the trucks and European and local performance models, Saab for entry luxury, Hummer for the off-road crowd, and Cadillac for the rich bastards who will pay $150K for a $40K BMW. Given the prices people pay for luxury vehicles in Australia there's probably even room in the market for another brand between Holden and Cadillac, and there's really only Buick. The Aussie media would be derisive, but well-equipped Enclave and LaCrosse, and even a locally-built PA would have the required snob appeal a Holden can't muster, especially with the 2.9 L diesel V6 or a hybrid to stroke their elitism.

[Camino LS6]

There is already a single company distributing all the vehicles—it's called GM Holden. Hummer, Saab Australia are and soon Cadillac Australia will be Holden divisions, just as Chevrolet, Pontiac-GMC, Cadillac etc. are in the US. Australia supports many brands in low volume. Adding Chevrolet for economy models, keeping Holden for the trucks and European and local performance models, Saab for entry luxury, Hummer for the off-road crowd, and Cadillac for the rich bastards who will pay $150K for a $40K BMW. Given the prices people pay for luxury vehicles in Australia there's probably even room in the market for another brand between Holden and Cadillac, and there's really only Buick. The Aussie media would be derisive, but well-equipped Enclave and LaCrosse, and even a locally-built PA would have the required snob appeal a Holden can't muster, especially with the 2.9 L diesel V6 or a hybrid to stroke their elitism.

I stand corrected.

I think.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Such animosity is unprofessional and will end up killing GM. Holden exists for the same reason Opel does, irrespective of vehicle development or manufacturing plants. That is to sell GM vehicles in the Australian market. For volume players that means having an Australian manufacturing presence, however limited. Nissan was once a big seller in the Australian market with one of the first local plants after GM and Ford. When they closed down the local plant sales crashed and haven't really recovered, despite steadily improving product. Do you want that to happen to GM? Can you imagine what would happen to GM's European sales if they decied to rebadge all Opels and Vauxhalls as Saturns? Why not after all, when they sell the same products. Why, do we really need Opel. After all it's increasing just a marketing unit for vehicles engineered by GM Europe and built by GM Manufacturing and GM Powertrain. Now, I can see that there may be many people at Holden who need to get the boot, relics from the old guard who don't think Cadillac would sell in Australia, who though it would be OK to keep importing the Astra from Europe instead of South Africa despite the cost (because they were close to the guys in GM Europe), who listen too much to the parochial Aussie press (who would take PCS out into the desert and leave him there to die of heatstroke and dehydration if they knew his attitude—especially since without Holden neither Toyota, Ford, nor Mitsubishi could keep building cars in Australia as all the suppliers would collapse), etc. etc.. But those guys are mostly gone now anyway. Gene Stefanshyn from GMNA is effectively running vehicle development, Mark Reuss will be in charge soon, succeeding Dennis Mooney from GMNA, and locals with talent have been sent to GM Daewoo and GMNA. Hummer is already here and doing well, Cadillac will be arriving soon, and after that possibly Chevrolet, at least for the Camaro (which has an Australian motor racing heritage the locals will appreciate at least).

You are right about one thing, Chevrolet is coming and in a huge way. Camaro is just the tip of the iceberg. :AH-HA_wink:

[ocnblu]

It is pitifully stupid and suicidal for GM to contemplate killing Pontiac.

[thegriffon]

Don't go to Australia will you, if the local media get wind of who you are and what your opinions are, they will crucify you. Seriously. They are extremely parochial and elitist. They think Ford Australia is the company expert in suspension and handling, even if the engineers were all on temporary loan from Ford Europe. The criticize the Americans for handling of the last Mustangs sold in Australia as far inferior to the local Falcon, even though it was re-engineered that way by Ford Australia. They helped kill the Taurus down under because it might have jeopardized their beloved Falcon. They claim the local Camry was engineered in Australia, even though the model sold here is identical to the Japanese and American models, which of course , especially the latter, they think are crap (what did they do, spend a few weeks tweaking the suspension settings and a few months retooling the local plant and qualifying local suppliers?). They didn't want Cadillac because they claimed the CTS would cost the same as a Caprice, when if it is priced against even the 3-series it would be tens of thousands of dollars more than even the most expensive HSV (outrageous local pricing for luxury vehicles). Although Holden killed off the Ford competition few people buy the big Holdens locally—almost all go to the middle east and local buyers opt for far more expensive BMWs and Mercedes ($US100K plus for a 6-cylinder 3-series). They thought the previous HSV Commodore was better than the 5-series (no thanks to the American engine).

[Oracle of Delphi]

Don't go to Australia will you, if the local media get wind of who you are and what your opinions are, they will crucify you. Seriously. They are extremely parochial and elitist. They think Ford Australia is the company expert in suspension and handling, even if the engineers were all on temporary loan from Ford Europe. The criticize the Americans for handling of the last Mustangs sold in Australia as far inferior to the local Falcon, even though it was re-engineered that way by Ford Australia. They helped kill the Taurus down under because it might have jeopardized their beloved Falcon. They claim the local Camry was engineered in Australia, even though the model sold here is identical to the Japanese and American models, which of course , especially the latter, they think are crap (what did they do, spend a few weeks tweaking the suspension settings and a few months retooling the local plant and qualifying local suppliers?). They didn't want Cadillac because they claimed the CTS would cost the same as a Caprice, when if it is priced against even the 3-series it would be tens of thousands of dollars more than even the most expensive HSV (outrageous local pricing for luxury vehicles). Although Holden killed off the Ford competition few people buy the big Holdens locally—almost all go to the middle east and local buyers opt for far more expensive BMWs and Mercedes ($US100K plus for a 6-cylinder 3-series). They thought the previous HSV Commodore was better than the 5-series (no thanks to the American engine).

I know most of this, I have been in OZ many times. I find the people there exactly as you say, sad but true!

[ZL-1]

It is pitifully stupid and suicidal for GM to contemplate killing Pontiac.

If it was me I wouldn't just go out and murder Pontiac, as it's probably much cheaper to let it starve to death. Something like letting it in its own misery.

*awaits reaction to comments*

Edited January 19, 2008 by ZL-1

[ocnblu]

What small country do you live in again?

[Cory Wolfe]

PCS was right about one thing... This is going to be quite the show. Watching GM destroy itself... Not something I thought I would see.

[ocnblu]

GMNA's 2020 model year lineup: Chevy Aveo, with your choice of trim levels: Cobalt, Malibu, Camaro, or Impala. And an Alpha Cadillac 1.4L Turbo V-Series. Exciting!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

I don't think we will ever see Holden shut down. And it would really suck for us GM enthusiasts if we had the task of building Zetas but couldn't drive them.

So this is where the race for Bob Lutz job comes in...

The successor was probably going to be Reuss and he was being appointed to Holden because Zeta was so integral to GMNA. But now, that CAFE has essentially screwed all of us over, Forster has a leg up because GMNA is just like GME in many ways. (That could be a very sad thing)

So, it'll be interesting to see if Reuss was dispatched to save Holden or essentially shut it down. (Like I said, I doubt Holden is going anywhere though)

Edited January 20, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Dead?

EDIT - I find it interesting that I'm not seeing much of a role for Pontiac, FOG's excellent post does not leave that much room for Pontiac, and you asked the question I quoted... There's the chance of a Pontiac consisting of small rwd sporty cars, but why can't other brands offer those?... Interesting indeed, and whatever the result is I already have my popcorn so I can watch the show unfold.

I think there is still a role for Pontiac. But the brand needs to be extremely focused and needs to know how to think outside of the box. If GM keeps trying to pass it off as just 'a chevy with a little more icing' then no, Pontiac has no reason to exist. But if they'd get off of their asses and give it the product it deserves, I'm willing to bet that we would all be pretty surprised.

If I were Pontiac, I would strive for exportation. I think the division would have a much better chance if at least some of it's models were exported or utilized somewhere else.

For example; the next Solstice could be used for Daewoo, Opel and Vauxhall as opposed to the Sky. Or, if GM really wanted to play role reversal, and did in fact bring Zeta to NA, they could use Pontiac to supply Holden as opposed to Holden supplying Pontiac with models. This would probably prove especially successful IF the dollar keeps sinking.

Edited January 20, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Such animosity is unprofessional and will end up killing GM. Holden exists for the same reason Opel does, irrespective of vehicle development or manufacturing plants. That is to sell GM vehicles in the Australian market. For volume players that means having an Australian manufacturing presence, however limited. Nissan was once a big seller in the Australian market with one of the first local plants after GM and Ford. When they closed down the local plant sales crashed and haven't really recovered, despite steadily improving product. Do you want that to happen to GM? Can you imagine what would happen to GM's European sales if they decied to rebadge all Opels and Vauxhalls as Saturns? Why not after all, when they sell the same products. Why, do we really need Opel. After all it's increasing just a marketing unit for vehicles engineered by GM Europe and built by GM Manufacturing and GM Powertrain.

I agree... And hopefully the leadership at GM isn't dumb enough to fall for this sort of thing. (I doubt they are; somehow I think what is said on a message board is FAR and away from the decisions that are actually made)

But those guys are mostly gone now anyway. Gene Stefanshyn from GMNA is effectively running vehicle development, Mark Reuss will be in charge soon, succeeding Dennis Mooney from GMNA, and locals with talent have been sent to GM Daewoo and GMNA. Hummer is already here and doing well, Cadillac will be arriving soon, and after that possibly Chevrolet, at least for the Camaro (which has an Australian motor racing heritage the locals will appreciate at least).

Hope IS very much alive.

[Northstar]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

One by one, GM will watch it's customers continue to leave and go elsewhere, to companies who build cars that are exciting.

Then we can write a book here at C&G aout ow GM died.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8,

I'm sure this is just dreaming, but how much bearing does that have on a RWD Impala? Is it just a slip of the tongue, or is it a hint at a more efficient RWD model?

(I doubt it is, but I figured I'd throw it out there)

This is from a reliable source on Camaroz28.com:

Actually, it is news.

Holden was waiting on approval for what was essentially a longer wheelbase Camaro that was to have different sheetmetal (keep in mind who was developing the Camaro ), and also potentially sold under the Pontiac nameplate.

Holden was pushing to make it at Elizabeth City if it wasn't going to be made in North America. That plan started it's death roll when US-Aussie exchange rates went sour & the VE didn't reverse the decline of Australia's large car sales.

Instead, it now seems that Holden is on the early stages of working on "something else" that apparently is the Alpha.

The GTO that was killed 2 years ago was the one that died when GM North America put their Zeta program on hold and reigned in the number of programs based on it.

Holden was ready to do the new Monaro. The fall of the US dollar against the Aussie dollar doomed the GTO as much if not more than CAFE.

The car was piggybacked off of the higher profile Camaro development, and therefore all but invisible. Could have been out 12-18 months after Camaro.

Shame it won't happen now. It would have essentially cost GM next to nothing. Barely more than sheetmetal stamping and interior sourcing.

It seems as though there was a program and it's sad that it isn't happening... This could've been our GTO. But this does shed some light on how other factors are contributing to the demise of Zeta as much, if not more, than CAFE (Despite how it's spun)

AND:

As far as relative development costs go, the 5th gen really didn't cost GM very much at all. The entire Zeta structure cost just $1 billion Aussie dollars ($748 million US dollars at the time), and pulling the larger WM Statesman off that architecture cost $190 million ($142 million at the time), the new Camaro most certainly cost under $500 million. Perhaps alot under $500 million. As a yardstick, the Camaro's 1998 redesign cost $250 million. GM plans to spend over $400 million just redoing the Oshawa plant.

The 5th gen Camaro was done very cheap. Therefore, it could very easily have a short life and still make GM a tidy profit.

There might very well be alot of merit to what you're thinking out loud.

That being the case, it doesn't seem Camaro NEEDS Impala or a high volume Zeta.... or NEEDS to have that long of a run to recover it's investment.

Nice to see that Zeta didn't break the bank... Too bad the same can't be said of the N* replacement.

Edited January 20, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There is already a single company distributing all the vehicles—it's called GM Holden. Hummer, Saab Australia are and soon Cadillac Australia will be Holden divisions, just as Chevrolet, Pontiac-GMC, Cadillac etc. are in the US. Australia supports many brands in low volume. Adding Chevrolet for economy models, keeping Holden for the trucks and European and local performance models, Saab for entry luxury, Hummer for the off-road crowd, and Cadillac for the rich bastards who will pay $150K for a $40K BMW. Given the prices people pay for luxury vehicles in Australia there's probably even room in the market for another brand between Holden and Cadillac, and there's really only Buick. The Aussie media would be derisive, but well-equipped Enclave and LaCrosse, and even a locally-built PA would have the required snob appeal a Holden can't muster, especially with the 2.9 L diesel V6 or a hybrid to stroke their elitism.

So, if that's the case and Chevrolet really does have a desire to go to Oz then why couldn't Holden be repositioned into that slot.

Holden essentially is Buick in China for all intents and purposes and it apparently already has a somewhat limited buyer base in Oz. (Much to my surprise still)

Then you could have Chevrolet with affordable crap, Holden could occupy the middle ground and Cadillac could be th range topper. Hummer and Saab probably won't even pull enough volume for the anyone to notice.

And if anyone at GM has a problem with that, then they should definitley have a problem with Vauxhall as well. An eye for an eye.

Edited January 20, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[VenSeattle]

There is already a single company distributing all the vehicles—it's called GM Holden. Hummer, Saab Australia are and soon Cadillac Australia will be Holden divisions, just as Chevrolet, Pontiac-GMC, Cadillac etc. are in the US. Australia supports many brands in low volume. Adding Chevrolet for economy models, keeping Holden for the trucks and European and local performance models, Saab for entry luxury, Hummer for the off-road crowd, and Cadillac for the rich bastards who will pay $150K for a $40K BMW. Given the prices people pay for luxury vehicles in Australia there's probably even room in the market for another brand between Holden and Cadillac, and there's really only Buick. The Aussie media would be derisive, but well-equipped Enclave and LaCrosse, and even a locally-built PA would have the required snob appeal a Holden can't muster, especially with the 2.9 L diesel V6 or a hybrid to stroke their elitism.

I actually like how griffon painted this... Buick in Australia

Buick - Australian History

Interesting info on Holden's history as well...

[thegriffon]

So, if that's the case and Chevrolet really does have a desire to go to Oz then why couldn't Holden be repositioned into that slot.

Holden essentially is Buick in China for all intents and purposes and it apparently already has a somewhat limited buyer base in Oz. (Much to my surprise still)

Then you could have Chevrolet with affordable crap, Holden could occupy the middle ground and Cadillac could be th range topper. Hummer and Saab probably won't even pull enough volume for the anyone to notice.

And if anyone at GM has a problem with that, then they should definitley have a problem with Vauxhall as well. An eye for an eye.

I don't think you quite grasp the pricing structure in Australia. There is a vast gulf between the most affordable cars and luxury brands such as BMW and Mercedes. Bear in mind the the $A is hovering close to $US0.90.

Midsize sedans:

Hyundai Sonata 2.4—$26K

(Chevrolet) Epica 2.5—$28K

Mitsubishi Galant V6—$29K

Toyota Camry 2.4—$29K

Ford Mondeo 2.3—$30K

Dodge Avenger 2.4—$31K

Chrysler Sebring 2.4—$34K

Nissan Teana V6—$35K

Ford Falcon I6—$35K

Toyota Aurion (Camry) V6—$35K

Holden Commodore V6—$35K (the Value model, more like $40K in regular trim)

Honda Accord V6—$38K

Hyundai Azera 3.8—$43K

Holden Calais V6—$45K

Holden Calais V8—$50K

Mazda6 2.3—$40K

Citroen C5 V6—$50K

Subaru Liberty 3.0—$53K

VW Passat V6—$55K

Peugeot 407 V6—$56K

Saab 93 V6—$71K

Peugeot 607 V6—$73K

Lexus ES300—$75K

Alfa 159 V6—$80K

Jaguar S-Type—$90K

Cadillac CTS—???

Lexus GS300—$95K

Citroen C6—$102K (109 for the diesel-just crazy pricing)

Audi A6 3.0 TDi—$100K

BMW 530i—$114K (a 335i coupe is $109K)

As you can see, even if Chevrolet takes over the Aveo, Optra and Epica from Holden, leaving Holden with the Corsa, Astra, Insignia/Torana and more expensive Commodores (the V8s are still popular); there is plenty of room between the Calais and the CTS for a 4- and 6-cylinder LaCrosse to slot in, even below the smaller 9-3 (I would suggest a 2.4 at say $48K, a 3.6 at just under $70K and a 2.9 CDTi and 2-mode between $75 and $80K). There is also room for a lwb Chevrolet Theta from $40K (where the Captiva tops out), a Holden Acadia at $65K and an Enclave at $80K (all of which Holden really needs).

[VenSeattle]

PCS... are you listening?

Buick for Australia! Griffon needs a LaCrosse!

[ZL-1]

What small country do you live in again?

I think there is still a role for Pontiac. But the brand needs to be extremely focused and needs to know how to think outside of the box. If GM keeps trying to pass it off as just 'a chevy with a little more icing' then no, Pontiac has no reason to exist. But if they'd get off of their asses and give it the product it deserves, I'm willing to bet that we would all be pretty surprised.

If I were Pontiac, I would strive for exportation. I think the division would have a much better chance if at least some of it's models were exported or utilized somewhere else.

For example; the next Solstice could be used for Daewoo, Opel and Vauxhall as opposed to the Sky. Or, if GM really wanted to play role reversal, and did in fact bring Zeta to NA, they could use Pontiac to supply Holden as opposed to Holden supplying Pontiac with models. This would probably prove especially successful IF the dollar keeps sinking.

It would have to be extremely focused

If you look at the Mexico and Canada lineups (read G2 and G3 here), it gets scary bc those are straight Chevy rebadges.

GMNA supplying GMAP is an interesting idea.

[ZL-1]

Just noticed this:

Citroen C6—$102K (109 for the diesel-just crazy pricing)

that much money?

[hyperv6]

Please do not over look the fact this 35 MPG is not a GM problem it is a Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and the like. Even Honda's Fleet average right now is not much better than 23 MPG if the numers I saw were correct. So this is a industry wide problem and GM is not going to go away or fail.

GM will have to make some real big changes just as everyone else. There is a good chance we will lose some favorite models and even a brand or two. This is not the end of the world.

I am a big Pontiac fan but right now if they quit selling them on Monday It is not really going to impact GM in a large way since they sell so few now anyway. But the truth is Pontiac can live on even in 3 models if need be since Buick and GMC are combind.

Also some act as if the expansion of Chevy is a surprise. It has been going on for several years as GM is growing Chevy as a world wide brand in new and old markets. We have Chevy in Europe [mostly Daewoo] South America, Africa, The Middle East, China and we may even see them soon if not already in India. The models vary but the name is the same. In time the models will vary less and less.

Like the changes or not they have to happen and GM has to play there stong cards. GM is big enough and strong enough to make it through all of this.

There are other companies that are in real trouble now. Chrysler is on the bubble unless they can come up with some winning small cars.

Even companies overseas Like Honda and the like have to spend billions for better technology as they today can not meet the standards. Honda can not afford to spend billions with out help of a larger partner.

I expect down the road the goverment may give them some room on the milage but the work still needs to be done.

We have all heard the end of our favorite cars before in the 60's 70's, and 80's. But we made it thorugh. We will not see the world end just change in some good and bad ways. Kind of sounds like life?

Edited January 21, 2008 by hyperv6

[ocnblu]

Autoweek magazine on the fifth-gen Chevrolet Camaro:

This is not the kind of thing General Motors just does well; it is what GM was made for. The Camaro convertible is so close to the perfect all-American car that it should be in a museum in a glass case marked “Muscle-car americus.”

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Please do not over look the fact this 35 MPG is not a GM problem it is a Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and the like. Even Hondas Fleet average right now is not much better than 23 MPG if the numers I saw were correct. So this is a industry wide problem and GM is not going to go away or fail.

GM will have to make some real big changes just as eeveryone else. There is a gfood chance we will lose some facorite models and even a brand or two. This is not the end of the world.

I am a big Pontiac fan but right now if they quit selling them on Monday It is not really going to impact GM in a large way since they sell so few now anyway. But the truth is Pontiac can live on even in 3 models if need be since Buick and GMC are combind.

Also some act as if the expansion of Chevy is a surprise. It has been going on for several years as GM is growing Chevy as a world wide brand in new and old markets. We have Chevy in Europe [mostly Daewoo] South America, Africa, The Middle East, China and we may even see them soon if not already in India. The moedls vary but the name is the same. In time the models will vary less and less.

Like the changes or not they have to happen and GM has to play there stong cards. GM is big enough and strong enough to make it through all of this.

There are other companie that are in real trouble now. Chrysler is on the bubble unles they can come up with some winning small cars.

Even companies overseas Like Honda and the like have to spend billions for better technology as they today can not meet the standards. Honda can not afford to spedn billions with out help of a larger partner.

I expect down the road the goverment may give them some room on the milage but the work still needs to be done.

We have all heard the end of our favorite cars before in the 60's 70's, and 80's. But we made it thorugh. We will not see the wolrd end just change in some good and bad ways. Kind of sounds like life?

I really see no reason to phase out any division, especially the only division that supposedly ONLY sells cars. And I know everyone keeps saying "this happened before" that's all well and good, but I really don't feel like waiting 20 years for cars I want to buy to be available again (which I doubt they will be, if we abandon excitement now, it will never come back)

DCX and Ford have both committed to RWD. GM can survive this, but forcing cars that aren't desireable on the public won't work. If the public wants an appliance, they'll just save the trouble and buy from the companies that sell appliances.

[thegriffon]

PCS... are you listening?

Buick for Australia! Griffon needs a LaCrosse!

Even if you spend $20K per vehicle on the RHD, at $70K+ … kaching!!!

[hyperv6]

I really see no reason to phase out any division, especially the only division that supposedly ONLY sells cars. And I know everyone keeps saying "this happened before" that's all well and good, but I really don't feel like waiting 20 years for cars I want to buy to be available again (which I doubt they will be, if we abandon excitement now, it will never come back)

DCX and Ford have both committed to RWD. GM can survive this, but forcing cars that aren't desireable on the public won't work. If the public wants an appliance, they'll just save the trouble and buy from the companies that sell appliances.

My point is not to phase out anything but that it is to the point if Pontiac is there or not it make little differance. I think they can keep Pontiac alive if they can find a car that is different enough from the other GM products and that being with Buick and GMC take the pressuer off if they do want to keep it sinc it is no longer a full line division.

As for not forcing cars that aren't desireable that is just what Lutz is fighting. His mission is to take small car with small engines and make them thinks people want and enjoy. Not an easy task. With Zeta we were almost set to have that. But now GM has little time to rethink and retool to meet the reg. The one thing as I stated GM has in their favor is all MFG are in the same boat.

The big problem is coming up with any cars people will want vs a whole corperation of of them. How many ways can you make a Aveo fun?

[Camino LS6]

Your post makes a great case for selling Zetas for as long as they meet the current model year regs.

[Oracle of Delphi]

PCS... are you listening?

Buick for Australia! Griffon needs a LaCrosse!

Huh? What?

[buyacargetacheck]

I'm not Pontiac's biggest fan, but to be fair it could go another way:

As long as the PBG channel exists and the new CAFE regs hold up I don't see why GM couldn't make money selling fuel-efficient Vibes, Deltas and maybe a GMDAT small car in addition to the Solstice as an entry to Buick. Pontiac returns to its original roots and the performance pretension fades - basically Pontiac USA adopts Pontiac Canada's traditional positioning. Better yet, Pontiac USA and Pontiac Canada adopt Pontiac Mexico's lineup sans the van and Torrent. A unified lineup would mesh well with CAFE and the governing establishment's desire during the next US president's term to merge the economies of North America.

I would suggest a logo change from "PONTIAC IS CAR" to "PONTIAC IS DEAD". Just a thought.

Edited January 21, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[SuperSport623]

im sorry but that is the stupidest idea of ive ever heard... dont make pontiac a CAFE bitch by filling it with FWD 4bangers.... id rather see the brand die...

i can imagince PCS responding with "be careful what you wish for"

[Camino LS6]

I'm not Pontiac's biggest fan, but to be fair it could go another way:

As long as the PBG channel exists and the new CAFE regs hold up I don't see why GM couldn't make money selling fuel-efficient Vibes, Deltas and maybe a GMDAT small car in addition to the Solstice as an entry to Buick. Pontiac returns to its original roots and the performance pretension fades - basically Pontiac USA adopts Pontiac Canada's traditional positioning. Better yet, Pontiac USA and Pontiac Canada adopt Pontiac Mexico's lineup sans the van and Torrent. A unified lineup would mesh well with CAFE and the governing establishment's desire during the next US president's term to merge the economies of North America.

Selling econo-junk is hardly "Pontiac's roots"

What planet are you from?

Performance is Pontiac's genuine heritage, hardly a "pretension"

[buyacargetacheck]

Until the 1957 fuel-injected Bonneville, Oaklands/Pontiacs were value-priced, pedestrian-performanced cars. Dull in every sense. The "short" decade of the 1960s (particularly the latter half) was solely responsible for Pontiac's "performance heritage." It's been middle-of-the-road-mediocre ever since - no more performance-oriented than Chevy.

So, Pontiac's roots (and reality up to this day) are about value with a sporty grill. Just ask any Canadian - that's why Pontiacs sell well up there. It's amazing that this even needs to be explained to GM "enthusiasts."

Selling econo-junk is hardly "Pontiac's roots"

What planet are you from?

Performance is Pontiac's genuine heritage, hardly a "pretension"

[Robert Hall]

Until the 1957 fuel-injected Bonneville, Oaklands/Pontiacs were value-priced, pedestrian-performanced cars. Dull in every sense. The "short" decade of the 1960s (particularly the latter half) was solely responsible for Pontiac's "performance heritage." It's been middle-of-the-road-mediocre ever since - no more performance-oriented than Chevy.

So, Pontiac's roots (and reality up to this day) are about value with a sporty grill. Just ask any Canadian - that's why Pontiacs sell well up there. It's amazing that this even needs to be explained to GM "enthusiasts."

Who cares about what Pontiac is in Canada, though? The US image that matters is what it had in the '60s-70s.

Edited January 21, 2008 by moltar

[VenSeattle]

Who cares about what Pontiac is in Canada, though? The US image that matters is what it had in the '60s-70s.

Pontiac's transition and overtaking Oakland is part of its US history. Pontiac was almost phased out as an "old-person's brand" in this country.

Over the entire course of existence, how many years did Pontiac's line-up (not just a coupe or two) actually consist of "performance" vehicles? Did they out-perform Chevrolet?

Okay, even if you account for the years where it was just a coupe or two, how many years did Pontiac out-perform Chevrolet?

They're honest and legitimate questions since we're talking 'claims to heritage' here.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac didn't really have much of a reason to be until Knudsen gave it the excitement it has since been known for. Only in the very early days as companion brand to Oakland did it really have its act together. That is until the recipe of performance mixed with trim levels upscale of Chevy gave it a lasting identity. Although mis-managed, the theme of performance has persisted to this day, albeit often with just one or two true performance models. Performance remains the defining hallmark of the brand, and any deviation from that focus would render it pointless.

With Pontiac, GM has an opportunity to focus performance of a wide variety of vehicles in one central home. In fact, this was their publicaly stated intention. Implementation of this idea has never been given any real effort as GM has starved the brand of the required product to gain that focus.

All that Pontiac needs is for that plan to be put in place in a meanigful way at long last. For decades now, GM has sold the brand short when a concerted effort to define it through the right product has been all that it needed.

[Robert Hall]

Pontiac's transition and overtaking Oakland is part of its US history. Pontiac was almost phased out as an "old-person's brand" in this country.

That was many, many decades ago...very few people remember or care.

Their performance image from the '60s-70s is the only thing the brand can cling to now, they can't be marketed as being mainstream but better than Chevy, since that is where Saturn is..

As far as nonperformance, or even nonsporty models, I can't see a reason for Pontiac to exist... it seems that with Saturn in the middle and Buick in the upper middle, GM has their bases covered....

Edited January 21, 2008 by moltar

[thegriffon]

Pontiac's heritage is simply as a mid-range offering, positioned between Chevrolet and the premium brands such as Buick and Cadillac. Sort of where Opel is today, where Saturn should be heading (although it is still value-priced), and what Holden will be reduced to when Chevrolet takes over the value models. As such Pontiac should also be priced noticeably higher than Chevrolet, instead of offering the "value" model as it does with the G6. As for performance, Pontiac was early on promoted as "Chief of the Sixes", and the Pontiac "Speed Lines" (horizontal metal strips running along the hood to evoke streamlining) were an early feature. The original GRand Prix, the Tempest, GTO, rope drive, the OHC six, drilled and acid dipped bodies are all key elements of the Pontiac mythology. Now, if prices are increased for Pontiacs, as they should be in line with GMC, then perhaps sales will drop closer to Saturns, but even so I think it will be quite a while before Saturn can replace Pontiac as GM's primary mid-level brand in North America, and even then it would leave BPG without adequate small cars (even more so than at present). Kill the G6 (too close in size to the LaCrosse, too close in price to the Malibu), Kill the G5 (too much a Cobalt clone), and turn it into a dedicated, hardcore performance brand, offering the kind of lightweight stripper cars (a la 911 RS3) that would not be suitable for Cadillac, but using the almost everything else from the Cadillacs except the distinctive sheetmetal. A fresh, lightweight, clean but attractive body on the unaltered Cadillac shell (emulating the Corvair Corsa, early Grand Prixs and 2002ti). Simple spartan interiors like classic Ferraris in any color as long as it's black and tan, with lightweight seats etc., minimum sound deadening, and no frills except basic A/C, power windows (which are probably lighter and cheaper), Onstar and Stabilitrak. few factory options and no lengthy packages, just enough to build volume without encroaching on Cadillac. Add options you couldn't really offer on a Cadillac (rear seat delete for a coupe, ultra-thin sport seats and rear bench etc.). No V6s, just 4-cylinder gasoline and diesel engines, basic high-economy versions and high-output turbos. Sell the top-level turbos alongside Cadillac outside NA as the "tuner" version (for more money, not less).

Solstice 2-seat coupe and roadster.

Ventura compact sedan and coupe (if you want a cabrio get the fwd Astra or more luxurious Cadillac AT1). 1.6 and 2.0 L turbos, 150–300 hp, 1.7 L diesel

Tempest lower-midsize sedan and coupe (the stripped down BT3 family car). 1.6 and 2.0 turbos, 2.4 GDI and 2.0 diesel.

That should satisfy CAFE, provide extra volume for Alpha, avoid encroaching on either Saturn or Cadillac, and not cost too much money (no new body structure or powertrains).

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac's heritage is simply as a mid-range offering, positioned between Chevrolet and the premium brands such as Buick and Cadillac. Sort of where Opel is today, where Saturn should be heading (although it is still value-priced), and what Holden will be reduced to when Chevrolet takes over the value models. As such Pontiac should also be priced noticeably higher than Chevrolet, instead of offering the "value" model as it does with the G6. As for performance, Pontiac was early on promoted as "Chief of the Sixes", and the Pontiac "Speed Lines" (horizontal metal strips running along the hood to evoke streamlining) were an early feature. The original GRand Prix, the Tempest, GTO, rope drive, the OHC six, drilled and acid dipped bodies are all key elements of the Pontiac mythology. Now, if prices are increased for Pontiacs, as they should be in line with GMC, then perhaps sales will drop closer to Saturns, but even so I think it will be quite a while before Saturn can replace Pontiac as GM's primary mid-level brand in North America, and even then it would leave BPG without adequate small cars (even more so than at present). Kill the G6 (too close in size to the LaCrosse, too close in price to the Malibu), Kill the G5 (too much a Cobalt clone), and turn it into a dedicated, hardcore performance brand, offering the kind of lightweight stripper cars (a la 911 RS3) that would not be suitable for Cadillac, but using the almost everything else from the Cadillacs except the distinctive sheetmetal. A fresh, lightweight, clean but attractive body on the unaltered Cadillac shell (emulating the Corvair Corsa, early Grand Prixs and 2002ti). Simple spartan interiors like classic Ferraris in any color as long as it's black and tan, with lightweight seats etc., minimum sound deadening, and no frills except basic A/C, power windows (which are probably lighter and cheaper), Onstar and Stabilitrak. few factory options and no lengthy packages, just enough to build volume without encroaching on Cadillac. Add options you couldn't really offer on a Cadillac (rear seat delete for a coupe, ultra-thin sport seats and rear bench etc.). No V6s, just 4-cylinder gasoline and diesel engines, basic high-economy versions and high-output turbos. Sell the top-level turbos alongside Cadillac outside NA as the "tuner" version (for more money, not less).

Solstice 2-seat coupe and roadster.

Ventura compact sedan and coupe (if you want a cabrio get the fwd Astra or more luxurious Cadillac AT1). 1.6 and 2.0 L turbos, 150–300 hp, 1.7 L diesel

Tempest lower-midsize sedan and coupe (the stripped down BT3 family car). 1.6 and 2.0 turbos, 2.4 GDI and 2.0 diesel.

That should satisfy CAFE, provide extra volume for Alpha, avoid encroaching on either Saturn or Cadillac, and not cost too much money (no new body structure or powertrains).

Now this is some creative thinking, something GM desperately needs. I may not agree with the entire recipe, but aspects of it have real appeal. The key factor is the quality of the creativity in your idea. Something GME lacks entirely.

[gmcbob]

What is ultimately going to happen to the Sigma, Kappa and Alpha platforms? Aren't the 2 existing ones pretty respectable and also capable of spawning good mileage vehicles? I'd buy a high performance Camaro based on a slightly smaller rear drive platform - I think it would actually be better in some ways. thoughts? Does anyone actually know?

[Camino LS6]

What is ultimately going to happen to the Sigma, Kappa and Alpha platforms? Aren't the 2 existing ones pretty respectable and also capable of spawning good mileage vehicles? I'd buy a high performance Camaro based on a slightly smaller rear drive platform - I think it would actually be better in some ways. thoughts? Does anyone actually know?

Very much unknown right now.

[gm4life]

QUOTE

Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15[15] as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles.[16] Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

^^^^ Can they really do this? If so that would be great... So those idots can do a RWD Impala, with the size and performance of the Malibu I have no problem with the Impala being RWD. Having said that GM should not put all there eggs in ONE basket.!^^^^

[gmcbob]

Very much unknown right now.

If GM kills the Sigma platform and makes Caddy fwd (again) - then it's completely over for them. I have a feeling that that isn't going to happen, but with everyone out there in GM Auto Enthusiast Land totally freaking out lately, I'm starting to freak out myself! The CTS is just too freaking cool to replace with the likes of something like a LaCrosse.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

What is ultimately going to happen to the Sigma, Kappa and Alpha platforms?

Like Camino told you, you're walking in the dark on this one.

All I know is that there was one more Kappa model to be introduced in 2009, the Solstice targa. I don't know what's happened to it in light of GME's recent vicious infiltration of GMNA. It could still happen, but I question it.

[Camino LS6]

If GM kills the Sigma platform and makes Caddy fwd (again) - then it's completely over for them. I have a feeling that that isn't going to happen, but with everyone out there in GM Auto Enthusiast Land totally freaking out lately, I'm starting to freak out myself! The CTS is just too freaking cool to replace with the likes of something like a LaCrosse.

I'd expect Caddy to stay with RWD, but how that's going to happen exactly is anyone's guess.

[thegriffon]

QUOTE

Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15[15] as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles.[16] Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

^^^^ Can they really do this? If so that would be great... So those idots can do a RWD Impala, with the size and performance of the Malibu I have no problem with the Impala being RWD. Having said that GM should not put all there eggs in ONE basket.!^^^^

Sorry GM4Life, doesn't work that way.

Section 32906 of title 49, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

‘‘§ 32906. Maximum fuel economy increase for alternative fuel automobiles

‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—For each of model years 1993 through 2019 for each category of automobile (except an electric automobile), the maximum increase in average fuel economy for a manufacturer attributable to dual fueled automobiles is—

‘‘(1) 1.2 miles a gallon for each of model years 1993 through 2014;

‘‘(2) 1.0 miles per gallon for model year 2015;

‘‘(3) 0.8 miles per gallon for model year 2016;

‘‘(4) 0.6 miles per gallon for model year 2017;

‘‘(5) 0.4 miles per gallon for model year 2018;

‘‘(6) 0.2 miles per gallon for model year 2019;

and

‘‘(7) 0 miles per gallon for model years after 2019.

[thegriffon]

What is more the fuel economy of dual-fuel vehicles is not the average. It's more like half the average.

A dual-fuel vehicle getting 15 mpg on E85 and 17 mpg on gasoline would be calculated as follows:

For E85 15 mpg becomes 15 m per 0.15 gallon of gasoline (other alternative fuels get the same credit, no matter what the percentage of gasoline or diesel), or 100 mpg. the dual-fuel economy is then 1/([0.5/100]+[0.5/17])=29.06 mpg, when the average would be 58.5 mpg.

Two CAFE ratings are then calculated—the CAFE including the dual-fuel calculation and the CAFE calculated using gasoline or diesel only. The credit gained under the former is then limited to 1.2 mpg more than the latter (dropping to zero by 2020). In our example if a manufacture only manufactures dual-fuel vehicles getting 17 mpg on gasoline and 15 mpg on E85, then the CAFE would not be 29 mpg, but just 18.2 mpg.

[hyperv6]

I'd expect Caddy to stay with RWD, but how that's going to happen exactly is anyone's guess.

They have a better shot at keeping RWD vs BMW and Benz. Cafe is Corperate Average and GM sell a lot of small other cars vs Benz For BMW who sell few if any small cars.

With a few tweeks the CTS RWD can get in the twenties and with the limited numbers Caddy sells it would balance out.

I see either large companies with large numbers of models at an advantage as they can rely on small car sales to sell some larger cars. I also see companies like Ferrari at a advantage as they sell so limited a number they are exempt.

Companies like Mercedes have few small cars and fewer that sell real well. They are the ones in very dire need. I can only think of the smart cars as some of their small diesels as a good mileage Daimler product.

We are all sitting here complaining about losing the RWD car when the pick up is the main problem. Full Size Pick Ups and SUV's account for 70% of sales and a greater part of the profits. IF GM can figure how to control the truck milage and keep profits up it releases much of the pressure on the cars. They only then need a profitable line of small or hybrid cars to open up room for the mid size RWD based cars. Lets face it even if Zeta lived it would not have been GM's biggest or most important moving line. Even the 300 and Charger at Chrysler are good selling but not the best selling. Not every one want that kind of car anymore.

I still see a window we will still have some cars we like but they will not be cheap or great in number of models as we might have had. Cars selling like a G8 at 40,000 or less a year would be ideal in this kind of market. If shared with oversea models like Holden it would keep lower numbers profitable. Now if you sell 150,000 then the problems would start as their mileage would be hard to offset.

I know I am missing something here as I just woke up. But we need to think out side the box and not how car companied have built and sold cars before. This can and will work out but start thinking of all the tools in GM's hands to fix this. The Daewoo may have opened the door for GM to have and make little cars at a profit that people want that will sell in great enough numbers to let a Camaro live. I just don't know what we can do with a 1/2 ton Pickup.

Edited January 22, 2008 by hyperv6

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

They have a bett shot at keeping RWD vs BMW and Benz. Cafe is Corperate Average and GM sell a lot of small other cars vs Benz For BMW who sell few if littel small cars.

I disagree entirely... BMW and Benz will just pass the expense to the customer, does Cadillac have enough prestige to do that? We'll see.

I see either large companies with large numbers of models at a advantage as they can rely on small car sales to sell some larger cars. I also see companies like Ferrari at a advantage as they sell so limited a number they are exempt.

I disagree again... GM is going to get hit the worst by CAFE (As was Congress' plan) because it's product mix is so heavily geared towards trucks. And when it comes to profittable trucks compared to limited sports cars, who do you think GM is going to greenlight?

Ferrari will not get an exemption... One of the main goals of the new plan was no exemptions for any company.

We are all sitting here complaining about losing the RWD car when the pick up is the main problem. Full Size Pick ups and SUV's account for 70% of sales and a greater part of the profits. IF GM can figure how to control the truck milage and keep profits up it releases much of the pressure on the cars. They only thne need a profitable linme of small or hybrid cars to open up room for the mid size RWD based cars. Lets face it even if Zeta lived it would not have been GM's Biggest or most important moving line. Even the 300 and Charger at Chrysler are good selling but not the best selling. Not every one want that kind of car anymore.

Mark my words. GM will be an extremist auto company for as long as trucks sell. They'll make large, profittable trucks and small, crappy cars to offset them.

[hyperv6]

I disagree entirely... BMW and Benz will just pass the expense to the customer, does Cadillac have enough prestige to do that? We'll see.

I disagree again... GM is going to get hit the worst by CAFE (As was Congress' plan) because it's product mix is so heavily geared towards trucks. And when it comes to profittable trucks compared to limited sports cars, who do you think GM is going to greenlight?

Ferrari will not get an exemption... One of the main goals of the new plan was no exemptions for any company.

Mark my words. GM will be an extremist auto company for as long as trucks sell. They'll make large, profittable trucks and small, crappy cars to offset them.

So BMW and Benz will sell less cars for more money? I expect the goverment will not just let a lot of cars slip through just on a gas guzzler tax. I expect large corperate penalties that will be more than what can be passed along.

As for the truck look for things like better packaged 1/2 ton trucks. there is alot of wasted space under the hood and in the cab. I expect Unibody to take over to remove more weight and a new look at composites. We already had a plastic bed and I expect it to return in better material. There will be trucks and they will be profiable but they will be different than what we have now. Also the SUVs will be replace with unibody cross overs like we are already getting.

Besides if gas continues to rise many will give up their large trucks unless they have a need for it. I would estimate 1/3 conservitively of the truck market is held down by people who really don't need a truck or a large one. We already have seen how $3 a gallon has effect large truck sales.

From last I read the limited production companies will be exempted as they produce so few cars.

I agree GM will contiue to sell trucks and try to find ways to advance them to keep with the times. But I also expect GM not got get caught with their pants down this time and have some small cars that are as good or better than anything else will offer. I think the new Malibu has shown GM can make great cars in classes they never have before.

If they can make the Bu w winner there is not reason to expect the next Cobalt to be anything less.

Our Ace is Lutz.