Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO DEAD

[Toyota.vs.GM]

How about the next Commodore on Alpha .

[Camino LS6]

Nah, it'll be Torana.

[z28luvr01]

A V8 is required for any Alpha Camaro to have credibility.

I know I'm dreaming, and we're more likely to get a 1.4L 4cyl Gamma Camaro than this, but:

How about a compact 4.x liter V8 for Alpha with 300-350 horsepower with 12:1 compression designed from the ground up to run ethanol ONLY? Now that's innovation.

[Camino LS6]

I know I'm dreaming, and we're more likely to get a 1.4L 4cyl Gamma Camaro than this, but:

How about a compact 4.x liter V8 for Alpha with 300-350 horsepower with 12:1 compression designed from the ground up to run ethanol ONLY? Now that's innovation.

YES!

[daves87rs]

There's no reason that a Zeta based car cannot get good mileage, upwards of 30 mpg. The technology is here, and more is coming, so Zeta may be down, but its not out. I don't think it will be out.

It's not so much of an issue of if they can-It's more if they can afford it (right now).

There is a lot on GM's plate right now...

[daves87rs]

Camaro on alpha? fine as long as V8s are available

Camaro on EPII?

NO!

GM is smarter then a FWD Camaro... even if its the most sophisticated Camaro yet, if theres no driveshaft, i will forever turn my back on GM....

that sent a baaaad chill through me

If they put it on EPII, it would be the worse handling Camaro, like ever..don't think that platform would be a wise idea...

That was chilling...

[daves87rs]

I know I'm dreaming, and we're more likely to get a 1.4L 4cyl Gamma Camaro than this, but:

How about a compact 4.x liter V8 for Alpha with 300-350 horsepower with 12:1 compression designed from the ground up to run ethanol ONLY? Now that's innovation.

It would.

[daves87rs]

Actually there was work being done to have that car built in North American along side the Holden Monaro, which would have been shipped back to Australia. But that work has now ceased.

I believe it was thought- I really don't think it have been considered though....

Maybe after the Camaro had been out for a while maybe...

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Actually there was work being done to have that car built in North American along side the Holden Monaro, which would have been shipped back to Australia. But that work has now ceased.

What work? The GTO/Monaro has been dead since 2005, as Chazman stated. Yeah, sure, there might have been as much as a clay mock up being readied for study, which would be the work that you're refering to, but that would have been almost two years ago.

So, yes, this car wasn't in the recent Zeta plans at all.

[ZL-1]

Of course, although Alpha's focus will be based around 4 cylinder and perhaps 6 cylinder engines, I personally would like to see a provision for a V8 on a possible future Camaro.

As long as Alpha is something close to a modular platform that is flexible enough to build very different vehicles (sedans, coupes, convertibles, crossovers, etc.) in 2 or 3 size classes, it can even come with a steam engine!

Edited January 18, 2008 by ZL-1

[Oracle of Delphi]

What work? The GTO/Monaro has been dead since 2005, as Chazman stated. Yeah, sure, there might have been as much as a clay mock up being readied for study, which would be the work that you're refering to, but that would have been almost two years ago.

So, yes, this car wasn't in the recent Zeta plans at all.

You are so uninformed, but then you're an outsider.

[ehaase]

Well, put it like this....

The whole business plan for Camaro and Oshawa was for, oh say, 300,000 Zetas to roll off the assembly line annually. Now, it's looking like Camaro may be the only NA Zeta remaining. Ouch!

Won't there still be the Cadillac and Buick Zetas? Surely the CTS won't be the biggest Cadillac, and the Epsilon II LaCrosse won't be the biggest Buick sedan.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Okay...

So, lets consider a couple of points/recap:

1) Rumor has it that Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha.

2) Zeta seems to be too heavy, but not necessarily too big.

3) The Northstar replacement has been cancelled supposedly in favor of V6 power ()

What *IF* and that's still an *IF* GM does decide to abandon Zeta and it has a 5 year or so cycle. Maybe this is why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha. Instead of using Zeta as the architecture for their future portfolio, maybe they want to develop an entire line from Alpha. CTS and STS can soldier on using a modified Sigma until Alpha is up and running. But where does that leave the DTS and larger sedan? (If there is one)

This could be good and bad. Good, if Alpha is engineered to accomodate different sizes of cars, because that means GM would have a much lighter (READ: better driving/performing) RWD platform that might be able to accomodate anything from a 4 cylinder to a V8. Bad, if Alpha is only engineered to be one series sized and can only accomodate 4 cylinder and V6 engines. The only problem is: Cadillac + light weight = expensive.

1 and 3 contradict each other because if, as Griffon says, the Northstar replacement was small enough to even fit in Epsilon, then it would be the only engine currently in development to even be close to fitting in what Alpha was originally supposed to be. So, that would explain why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha and is banking on V6 power. If that scenario plays out, then Cadillac will be a shadow of it former self and it will be a sad day.

I'm not sure how the LS engine line will fit into this. GM has said it will not develop any new V8s anytime soon (Sad) but that it will continue to build V8s indefinitely so, unless that's posturing, I'm assuming that the LS line of engines will be continuosly updated/reengineered. Can the LS engine be put into an Alpha car? Who knows... But I'll tell you this; there was a day when most thought it impossible to squeeze a V8 into a FWD W-Body and GM currently has 4 versions of that very set up for sale, so we'll see.

So where does that leave everyone else?

Holden would obviously have to be involved, unless Zeta soldiers on as an underpinning for trucks, or it won't be a good day in Oz. (I'm fearing this is what PCS is refering to) If Holden is not a part of Alpha development, does it really have a reason to exist? (Let me be clear that I am NOT supporting the idea of shedding Holden or stripping it)

GM do Brasil can develop real trucks while Holden develops car based stuff (Which will probably become more popular if the sky really is falling)

I'm willing to bet that the Alpha rumor for Chevrolet coincides with the Camaro moving to Alpha (because exportation was a part of the deal) and because originally (as far as I know) Zeta was a compromise anyway. The Camaro guys wanted something smaller and lighter I believe. We heard rumors that Camaro would be Kappa based, then we heard rumors that Chevrolet was getting a Kappa car in addition to the Camaro as well (So the support is there) I don't think you will ever see an Epsilon II Camaro and I don't think it'll ever be V6 only simply because the car will not sell that way. GM will pull the plug on the program before that happens.

I'm assuming (big assumptions) the new Impala as well as the larger Buick (Lucerne replacement) might eventually be Eps II (Unfortunately) But at least maybe Alpha can spawn some smaller RWD models for them, or depending on how big the platform can grow, we'll see. (RWD Nova anyone?)

So that leaves Pontiac...

Rumor is that the Solstice is apparently being combined with the Corvette and XLR program. Now, this could be a good thing (Better, higher performance Solstice---finally a Pontiac flagship) or a bad thing ($h!ty, downsized Corvette and XLR with less performance and power)

Torrent is going to GMC, Vibe has at least 5 years left and can hop on Delta II if need be.

The G6 apparently has no replacement as of yet, besides the updated version of the current car. That update can live on until a new G6 is developed from Alpha or until GM assigns it to Eps II.

The Zeta G8 can run for 4-5 years, then move to Alpha (Depending on how flexible the platform is and what the G6 does) G8 ST can remain on Zeta (If it's continued as a truck platform) since it fulfills it's mission as a truck fine.

The G5 can be developed from Delta II.

-OR- GM could be ignorant and phase out the division.

Edited January 18, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In street driving, horsepower doesn't really mean all that much. But torque does and 4s and 6s can't match a V8 in that department.

New or old, I'll still be driving a V8.

True that...

V8s are still viable.

Once again (I've said it a million times) the industry needs to lead instead of react.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Okay...

So, lets consider a couple of points/recap:

1) Rumor has it that Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha.

2) Zeta seems to be too heavy, but not necessarily too big.

3) The Northstar replacement has been cancelled supposedly in favor of V6 power ()

What *IF* and that's still an *IF* GM does decide to abandon Zeta and it has a 5 year or so cycle. Maybe this is why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha. Instead of using Zeta as the architecture for their future portfolio, maybe they want to develop an entire line from Alpha. CTS and STS can soldier on using a modified Sigma until Alpha is up and running. But where does that leave the DTS and larger sedan? (If there is one)

This could be good and bad. Good, if Alpha is engineered to accomodate different sizes of cars, because that means GM would have a much lighter (READ: better driving/performing) RWD platform that might be able to accomodate anything from a 4 cylinder to a V8. Bad, if Alpha is only engineered to be one series sized and can only accomodate 4 cylinder and V6 engines. The only problem is: Cadillac + light weight = expensive.

1 and 3 contradict each other because if, as Griffon says, the Northstar replacement was small enough to even fit in Epsilon, then it would be the only engine currently in development to even be close to fitting in what Alpha was originally supposed to be. So, that would explain why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha and is banking on V6 power. If that scenario plays out, then Cadillac will be a shadow of it former self and it will be a sad day.

I'm not sure how the LS engine line will fit into this. GM has said it will not develop any new V8s anytime soon (Sad) but that it will continue to build V8s indefinitely so, unless that's posturing, I'm assuming that the LS line of engines will be continuosly updated/reengineered. Can the LS engine be put into an Alpha car? Who knows... But I'll tell you this; there was a day when most thought it impossible to squeeze a V8 into a FWD W-Body and GM currently has 4 versions of that very set up for sale, so we'll see.

So where does that leave everyone else?

Holden would obviously have to be involved, unless Zeta soldiers on as an underpinning for trucks, or it won't be a good day in Oz. (I'm fearing this is what PCS is refering to) If Holden is not a part of Alpha development, does it really have a reason to exist? (Let me be clear that I am NOT supporting the idea of shedding Holden or stripping it)

GM do Brasil can develop real trucks while Holden develops car based stuff (Which will probably become more popular if the sky really is falling)

I'm willing to bet that the Alpha rumor for Chevrolet coincides with the Camaro moving to Alpha (because exportation was a part of the deal) and because originally (as far as I know) Zeta was a compromise anyway. The Camaro guys wanted something smaller and lighter I believe. We heard rumors that Camaro would be Kappa based, then we heard rumors that Chevrolet was getting a Kappa car in addition to the Camaro as well (So the support is there) I don't think you will ever see an Epsilon II Camaro and I don't think it'll ever be V6 only simply because the car will not sell that way. GM will pull the plug on the program before that happens.

I'm assuming (big assumptions) the new Impala as well as the larger Buick (Lucerne replacement) might eventually be Eps II (Unfortunately) But at least maybe Alpha can spawn some smaller RWD models for them, or depending on how big the platform can grow, we'll see. (RWD Nova anyone?)

So that leaves Pontiac...

Rumor is that the Solstice is apparently being combined with the Corvette and XLR program. Now, this could be a good thing (Better, higher performance Solstice---finally a Pontiac flagship) or a bad thing ($h!ty, downsized Corvette and XLR with less performance and power)

Torrent is going to GMC, Vibe has at least 5 years left and can hop on Delta II if need be.

The G6 apparently has no replacement as of yet, besides the updated version of the current car. That update can live on until a new G6 is developed from Alpha or until GM assigns it to Eps II.

The Zeta G8 can run for 4-5 years, then move to Alpha (Depending on how flexible the platform is and what the G6 does) G8 ST can remain on Zeta (If it's continued as a truck platform) since it fulfills it's mission as a truck fine.

The G5 can be developed from Delta II.

-OR- GM could be ignorant and phase out the division.

Were you in a certain meeting today, perhaps a fly on the wall?

[Chazman]

BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in all those stories about Alpha and Holden. Alpha's home room is the US. Perhaps Holden will have some sort of peripheral engineering role, perhaps Holden will even assemble Alphas. But the engineering will essentially be done by GMNA.

[turbo200]

a few things are clear.

Alpha is going to be a better and more focused platform than before. Zeta, like FOG said above, is too heavy but the right size for midsized sedans. They are going to have to figure out how to make architectures that are more focused and have resultant cars that make no sacrifices. This may mean going to less flexible architectures, since it seems making a car suitable for a number of markets and adaptable to a number of wheelbases and such has helped make Zeta a pig.

Alpha may very well provide the future for a number of brands, Holden, Cadillac, Pontiac. One thing GM must do is invest in high strength steel that weighs less. This is DOABLE. Zeta should be used for now since it's been heavily invested in and helps make the business case for Camaro, as well as the fact that it helps restore luster to Chevy's car brand and Buick's. Cadillac is in dire need of a an uplevel car as well, so Zeta must come. I just still don't see the uproar over CAFE standards that won't be implemented for another decade. Let us enjoy our big cars while we still can, and offer them with smart technology to keep mileage up.

[Oracle of Delphi]

BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in all those stories about Alpha and Holden. Alpha's home room is the US. Perhaps Holden will have some sort of peripheral engineering role, perhaps Holden will even assemble Alphas. But the engineering will essentially be done by GMNA.

Shhhhhhhhh! :AH-HA_wink:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in all those stories about Alpha and Holden. Alpha's home room is the US. Perhaps Holden will have some sort of peripheral engineering role, perhaps Holden will even assemble Alphas. But the engineering will essentially be done by GMNA.

That contradicts -or- confirms what we've been told.

It contradicts what GMNA is traditionally home room for (Large trucks and SUVs/Cadillac and sports cars)

It might however confirm that Cadillac now has the lead role on Alpha.

Holden would be assumed to be the traditional home room for Alpha.

Zeta has always been a schizophrenic program for some reason. It's almost as if EVERYONE wanted something from it or wanted it to be something different. And that did nothing but cause HUGE delays, waste money and fatten the thing up.

Alpha may very well provide the future for a number of brands, Holden, Cadillac, Pontiac. One thing GM must do is invest in high strength steel that weighs less. This is DOABLE. Zeta should be used for now since it's been heavily invested in and helps make the business case for Camaro, as well as the fact that it helps restore luster to Chevy's car brand and Buick's. Cadillac is in dire need of a an uplevel car as well, so Zeta must come. I just still don't see the uproar over CAFE standards that won't be implemented for another decade. Let us enjoy our big cars while we still can, and offer them with smart technology to keep mileage up.

Zeta most certainly should be used now and could even be kept around in the future for trucks, if GM chooses to do so. Camaro is vital for PR, Zeta is vital for Pontiac to build credibility again (another reason that I think we will see a G8 ST and GXP) I think, for now the Lucerne and big Cadillacs will also be based on Zeta. I think the big question is not now but where the future lies. Like someone said on cz28.com; the product planners need to begin thinking now about 5 years from now. So the question becomes: is Zeta viable in 5 years time? I fear that the answer is no for a few reasons: 1) Alpha, if engineered right, can eclipse Zeta. 2) Demand for Large cars such as the Lucerne might waiver (Allowing the platform to run out) 3) How much will it cost to update the platform with new technology to get the numbers up when we have Alpha anyway?

My only wish is that Zeta comes for now and Alpha is engineered to be smaller and larger with an entire range of engines; including V8s.

Edited January 19, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Oracle of Delphi]

Zeta has always been a schizophrenic program for some reason. It's almost as if EVERYONE wanted something from it or wanted it to be something different. And that did nothing but cause HUGE delays, waste money and fatten the thing up.

Zeta is the early W program of our time!

[Camino LS6]

Zeta is the early W program of our time!

I would rather imagine a Zeta than drive a W.

[Camino LS6]

That contradicts -or- confirms what we've been told.

It contradicts what GMNA is traditionally home room for (Large trucks and SUVs/Cadillac and sports cars)

It might however confirm that Cadillac now has the lead role on Alpha.

Holden would be assumed to be the traditional home room for Alpha.

Zeta has always been a schizophrenic program for some reason. It's almost as if EVERYONE wanted something from it or wanted it to be something different. And that did nothing but cause HUGE delays, waste money and fatten the thing up.

Zeta most certainly should be used now and could even be kept around in the future for trucks, if GM chooses to do so. Camaro is vital for PR, Zeta is vital for Pontiac to build credibility again (another reason that I think we will see a G8 ST and GXP) I think, for now the Lucerne and big Cadillacs will also be based on Zeta. I think the big question is not now but where the future lies. Like someone said on cz28.com; the product planners need to begin thinking now about 5 years from now. So the question becomes: is Zeta viable in 5 years time? I fear that the answer is no for a few reasons: 1) Alpha, if engineered right, can eclipse Zeta. 2) Demand for Large cars such as the Lucerne might waiver (Allowing the platform to run out) 3) How much will it cost to update the platform with new technology to get the numbers up when we have Alpha anyway?

My only wish is that Zeta comes for now and Alpha is engineered to be smaller and larger with an entire range of engines; including V8s.

I can almost agree with this, but I am so sick of the delays and re-arranging that waiting for Alpha isn't an option.

Disgusting really, we should all have been driving zetas for several years now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I would rather imagine a Zeta than drive a W.

You should put that on your sig! :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

You should put that on your sig! :AH-HA_wink:

Not a bad idea.

[thegriffon]

For review. CAFE stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

All GM needs to do is make every Zeta engine FlexFuel. Forget hybrid, forget hydrogen, forget fairy dust. It would cost an extra $100 per car to make them FlexFuel. CERTAINLY cheaper than spending a huge amount of money to fund development of the platform only to throw it in the dustbin. The idea that GM cannot make the ZETA up to CAFE standards is complete and utter BS beyond any shadow of any doubt. To those of you who celebrate the Zeta demise, you are shortsighted, unimaginative, and are clearly a danger to General Motors. Furthermore... unless GM is planning on having Zeta around for a W-body like amount of time, there would be two to three revisions of the platform completed by the time the 35mpg AVERAGE comes into effect. Do you think Ford was pumping out FlexFuel Tauruses and Sables in 1999 out out of the kindness of their dear sweet hearts? No, it was to raise their CAFE on the cheap.

GM has LOTS of CAFE credits due to their production of FlexFuel vehicles.

Additionally

The new CAFE legislation has retained the extra credit provision for FlexFuel.

In short, any argument using CAFE as a reason for canceling ANY Zeta vehicle is a complete Red Herring designed to deflect the truth about the internal political struggles inside of GM.

Edit: A 19mpg EPA combined FlexFuel Zeta <this assumes HF3.6 and similar weight to '07 CTS> would be rated at 40mpg.

No. The maximum accredited increase in fuel economy for bi-fuel vehicles is 1 mpg, in the new legislation, and that decreases to ZERO in 2020.

[Camino LS6]

You know, I may as well give up now. No matter what happens, I'm going to be disappointed.

Zeta is the exact size of vehicle I like best, and it appears that it just isn't going to show up after all of this time.

The smaller, lighter, Alpha just isn't going to cut it - no matter how good it turns out to be.

I should have kept the GTO.

[thegriffon]

Okay...

So, lets consider a couple of points/recap:

1) Rumor has it that Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha.

2) Zeta seems to be too heavy, but not necessarily too big.

3) The Northstar replacement has been cancelled supposedly in favor of V6 power ()

What *IF* and that's still an *IF* GM does decide to abandon Zeta and it has a 5 year or so cycle. Maybe this is why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha. Instead of using Zeta as the architecture for their future portfolio, maybe they want to develop an entire line from Alpha. CTS and STS can soldier on using a modified Sigma until Alpha is up and running. But where does that leave the DTS and larger sedan? (If there is one)

This could be good and bad. Good, if Alpha is engineered to accomodate different sizes of cars, because that means GM would have a much lighter (READ: better driving/performing) RWD platform that might be able to accomodate anything from a 4 cylinder to a V8. Bad, if Alpha is only engineered to be one series sized and can only accomodate 4 cylinder and V6 engines. The only problem is: Cadillac + light weight = expensive.

1 and 3 contradict each other because if, as Griffon says, the Northstar replacement was small enough to even fit in Epsilon, then it would be the only engine currently in development to even be close to fitting in what Alpha was originally supposed to be. So, that would explain why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha and is banking on V6 power. If that scenario plays out, then Cadillac will be a shadow of it former self and it will be a sad day.

I'm not sure how the LS engine line will fit into this. GM has said it will not develop any new V8s anytime soon (Sad) but that it will continue to build V8s indefinitely so, unless that's posturing, I'm assuming that the LS line of engines will be continuosly updated/reengineered. Can the LS engine be put into an Alpha car? Who knows... But I'll tell you this; there was a day when most thought it impossible to squeeze a V8 into a FWD W-Body and GM currently has 4 versions of that very set up for sale, so we'll see.

So where does that leave everyone else?

Holden would obviously have to be involved, unless Zeta soldiers on as an underpinning for trucks, or it won't be a good day in Oz. (I'm fearing this is what PCS is refering to) If Holden is not a part of Alpha development, does it really have a reason to exist? (Let me be clear that I am NOT supporting the idea of shedding Holden or stripping it)

GM do Brasil can develop real trucks while Holden develops car based stuff (Which will probably become more popular if the sky really is falling)

I'm willing to bet that the Alpha rumor for Chevrolet coincides with the Camaro moving to Alpha (because exportation was a part of the deal) and because originally (as far as I know) Zeta was a compromise anyway. The Camaro guys wanted something smaller and lighter I believe. We heard rumors that Camaro would be Kappa based, then we heard rumors that Chevrolet was getting a Kappa car in addition to the Camaro as well (So the support is there) I don't think you will ever see an Epsilon II Camaro and I don't think it'll ever be V6 only simply because the car will not sell that way. GM will pull the plug on the program before that happens.

I'm assuming (big assumptions) the new Impala as well as the larger Buick (Lucerne replacement) might eventually be Eps II (Unfortunately) But at least maybe Alpha can spawn some smaller RWD models for them, or depending on how big the platform can grow, we'll see. (RWD Nova anyone?)

So that leaves Pontiac...

Rumor is that the Solstice is apparently being combined with the Corvette and XLR program. Now, this could be a good thing (Better, higher performance Solstice---finally a Pontiac flagship) or a bad thing (&#036;h&#33;ty, downsized Corvette and XLR with less performance and power)

Torrent is going to GMC, Vibe has at least 5 years left and can hop on Delta II if need be.

The G6 apparently has no replacement as of yet, besides the updated version of the current car. That update can live on until a new G6 is developed from Alpha or until GM assigns it to Eps II.

The Zeta G8 can run for 4-5 years, then move to Alpha (Depending on how flexible the platform is and what the G6 does) G8 ST can remain on Zeta (If it's continued as a truck platform) since it fulfills it's mission as a truck fine.

The G5 can be developed from Delta II.

-OR- GM could be ignorant and phase out the division.

AFIK the G6 being built umtil 2013 will be a version of the EP2 Chevrolet, not an updated version of the current car.

[thegriffon]

Camaro on alpha? fine as long as V8s are available

Camaro on EPII?

NO!

GM is smarter then a FWD Camaro... even if its the most sophisticated Camaro yet, if theres no driveshaft, i will forever turn my back on GM....

that sent a baaaad chill through me

GM actually built an advanced fwd Camaro for a planned program, just before the last gen, but it never got beyond prototype stage.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So put this in your pipe and smoke it:

CORPORATE POLITICS 101:

My educated guess is this:

What does Cadillac want to do more than anything? Be taken seriously as a GLOBAL luxury division. What is required to do that? Success in Europe, on the home turf of the big boys. So, if you were Cadillac and the US Government just made Detroit swallow the death pill of CAFE what are you going to do? 1) Continue on with a portfolio planned on larger cars that probably will not advance your cause in Europe or 2) Tap Uncle Bob on the shoulder and say "Hey, you know what? Since Europe and America are roughly the same now, why don't we structure our line ups the same in both countries. Hence, why don't we take the lead on Alpha; smaller cars that will make an impact in Europe. I mean, after all, Cadillac has expressed interest in a smaller product or a long time (Remember the possible Cadillac Kappa when that platform was thought to be more flexible?) Not to mention, these cars will sit nicely beside the new BRX.

And this isn't even factoring in the projected significance of global sales on the GM empire OR the possible huge amount of share that CAFE might cause GMNA to lose.

Now, the only kink is the head of Cadillac (Can't remember his name) saying he doesn't want the division to go smaller than CTS-sized and tht could be reason for hope on a BROADER range of sizes on Alpha.

GM Europe, already smelling the flesh burning from CAFE here, allies with Cadillac (The corporations crown jewel) and voila, they have MAJOR input on future product. All the more because a more successful Cadillac in Europe means a stronger GME as well.

What about Zeta then? What about it? You do like our friend PCS says and sell the platform in Oz and China (Where big cars like that are allowed now, funny, the communists have more freedom of choice than us, lol)

Or you can do like Forster wants and essentially structure Cadillac (Off fo Alpha) to be a serious threat in the US and Europe, then you use Buick (Already the top brand in China) along with Zeta to own the market there. Holden then becomes nothing more than the Vauxhall of Oz and will probably see Zetas and crappy little euro cars. Or Chevrolet will be introduced in addition to Holden OR Chevrolet just replaces Holden (Because THAT would go over well)

As far as GM do Brasil; they see an increase for business for their home room now that CAFE sucks and will fight Holden the whole way with the Crewman and ST (Unless the models are limited to 3-4 years upon which new small trucks can materialize)

My concern lies with Pontiac... More and more it seems like a 4 year old kid LOST in the catacombs of GM, wandering around, just waiting to either be adopted by a loving leader or eaten up by the trolls under the bridge. If indeed Pontiac did lose Alpha, it appears that it would be because Pontiac is the only NA division that does not sell anywhere else (Despite them basically being Holden now, which in itself looks to have reduced significance)

Maybe GMPD should adopt Pontiac as it's official foster child.

Edited January 19, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

AFIK the G6 being built umtil 2013 will be a version of the EP2 Chevrolet, not an updated version of the current car.

Even better!

[Camino LS6]

Any way you slice it, it all comes down to the same thing.

This sucks.

Time to shut down the computer and distract myself with something else.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So put this in your pipe and smoke it:

CORPORATE POLITICS 101:

My educated guess is this:

What does Cadillac want to do more than anything? Be taken seriously as a GLOBAL luxury division. What is required to do that? Success in Europe, on the home turf of the big boys. So, if you were Cadillac and the US Government just made Detroit swallow the death pill of CAFE what are you going to do? 1) Continue on with a portfolio planned on larger cars that probably will not advance your cause in Europe or 2) Tap Uncle Bob on the shoulder and say "Hey, you know what? Since Europe and America are roughly the same now, why don't we structure our line ups the same in both countries. Hence, why don't we take the lead on Alpha; smaller cars that will make an impact in Europe. I mean, after all, Cadillac has expressed interest in a smaller product or a long time (Remember the possible Cadillac Kappa when that platform was thought to be more flexible?) Not to mention, these cars will sit nicely beside the new BRX.

And this isn't even factoring in the projected significance of global sales on the GM empire OR the possible huge amount of share that CAFE might cause GMNA to lose.

Now, the only kink is the head of Cadillac (Can't remember his name) saying he doesn't want the division to go smaller than CTS-sized and tht could be reason for hope on a BROADER range of sizes on Alpha.

GM Europe, already smelling the flesh burning from CAFE here, allies with Cadillac (The corporations crown jewel) and voila, they have MAJOR input on future product. All the more because a more successful Cadillac in Europe means a stronger GME as well.

What about Zeta then? What about it? You do like our friend PCS says and sell the platform in Oz and China (Where big cars like that are allowed now, funny, the communists have more freedom of choice than us, lol)

Or you can do like Forster wants and essentially structure Cadillac (Off fo Alpha) to be a serious threat in the US and Europe, then you use Buick (Already the top brand in China) along with Zeta to own the market there. Holden then becomes nothing more than the Vauxhall of Oz and will probably see Zetas and crappy little euro cars. Or Chevrolet will be introduced in addition to Holden OR Chevrolet just replaces Holden (Because THAT would go over well)

As far as GM do Brasil; they see an increase for business for their home room now that CAFE sucks and will fight Holden the whole way with the Crewman and ST (Unless the models are limited to 3-4 years upon which new small trucks can materialize)

My concern lies with Pontiac... More and more it seems like a 4 year old kid LOST in the catacombs of GM, wandering around, just waiting to either be adopted by a loving leader or eaten up by the trolls under the bridge. If indeed Pontiac did lose Alpha, it appears that it would be because Pontiac is the only NA division that does not sell anywhere else (Despite them basically being Holden now, which in itself looks to have reduced significance)

Maybe GMPD should adopt Pontiac as it's official foster child.

Go to the head of the class! I'm so proud! :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest YellowJacket894]

You are so uninformed, but then you're an outsider.

Maybe not quite as uninformed as you think; I've done a little more snooping since last night. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited January 19, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Chazman]

Hey FOG, good post. In fact I copied and pasted on CZ28 where we're having a similar discussion. Hope you don't mind.

[knightfan26917]

Camaro on EPII?

NO!

GM is smarter then a FWD Camaro... even if its the most sophisticated Camaro yet, if theres no driveshaft, i will forever turn my back on GM....

that sent a baaaad chill through me

I wouldn't put it past GM, though. Look what they've done to nova, impala, monte carlo, malibu..........

*shrugs*

Anyway ... love reading the theories and the hints of things to come ... but, I look forward to seeing things IN ACTION and available at dealers....maybe.

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

CDshowcase=www.WRMN1410.com*SATURDAY.january19*2p-5p.and.8p-11p.CENTRAL

"I think I finally know just what it means" ... Mac Davis ... 'Texas In My Rearview Mirror'

[ZL-1]

This may mean going to less flexible architectures, since it seems making a car suitable for a number of markets and adaptable to a number of wheelbases and such has helped make Zeta a pig.

Maybe, but I haven't heard people complaining about the new Audi A4 being a pig and the platform will be used in different sizes and configurations. It can be done.

Edited January 19, 2008 by ZL-1

[zetaman]

Some of you guys have got a thin grasp of reality and some of you are just making stuff up.

1) VE (or zeta) is not a pig, even when compared to smaller cars

2008 Cadillac CTS curb mass = 3,872 (V6 automatic).

It's a full size smaller than G8. 2008 CTS: Length / Width / Height: 191.6 in / 72.5 in / 58 in

G8 GT curb mass = 3,995 (V8 auto)

G8: Length / Width / Height: 4982 mm (196.1 in) / 1899 mm (74.8 in) / 1465 mm (57.7 in)

So there seems little advantage in weight-saving by expanding Sigma into larger models.

2) Zeta was never delayed

Holden was developing zeta independant of GMNA and their endless indecision. Holden never stopped development of VE

3) It's unlikely Alpha will be designed for V8. In order to make Alpha lightweight it's being designed for I4s and V6s without the required added weight being engineering for the high torque outputs of V8s. It's not in any way intended as the zeta replacement.

4) VE (the original zeta) has a 6 year lifecycle after which the replacement will likely continue on a modified zeta - Zeta is not heading to trucks

Edited January 19, 2008 by zetaman

[thegriffon]

Even better!

Well, they'll be even more like Holden, but I don't think that's better. Pontiac needs to be affordable sports sedans, even if that has to be small, affordable sport sedans. Another rebadged Chevrolet provides volume, but hardly adds to brand value.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Some of you guys have got a thin grasp of reality and some of you are just making stuff up.

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

Edited January 19, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[ocnblu]

What about Pontiac? How will Pontiac feel?

[z28luvr01]

Perhaps Zeta's biggest fault is this, from Wikipedia:

By 2006, Holden had replaced the Commodore with a new all-Australian model, in contrast to previous generations' Opel-sourced platforms adapted both mechanically and in size for the local market.

So, if I get this straight, the plan is to starve Holden of unique product until it becomes unnecessary, at which time Chevrolet will swoop in and knock Australians off their feet. I don't think that'll be such an easy thing to do - despite what the sales numbers say Holden is still an important part of Australian culture - killing it off would be analogous to killing off Chevy in the US or Opel in Europe. Australians are fiercely patriotic and would be relucant to accept an "American" brand. If my memory serves me correctly, they even hated the modifications done to the Monaro to make the GTO, and even hated the fact that they had to share it with the US. I sure hope Reuss has more sense than to allow this to happen.

[ZL-1]

What about Pontiac? How will Pontiac feel?

Dead?

EDIT - I find it interesting that I'm not seeing much of a role for Pontiac, FOG's excellent post does not leave that much room for Pontiac, and you asked the question I quoted... There's the chance of a Pontiac consisting of small rwd sporty cars, but why can't other brands offer those?... Interesting indeed, and whatever the result is I already have my popcorn so I can watch the show unfold.

Edited January 19, 2008 by ZL-1

[Toyota.vs.GM]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

Then Holden will become Chevrolet.If Federated Department Stores in one day can change the names of Marshall Field's,Famous-Barr,Filene's,Foley's,Hechtt's,The Jones Store,Kaufmann's,L .S. Ayres,Meier & Frank,Robinsons-May, and Strawbridge's into Macy's, than GM can make Holden become Chevrolet .

[Camino LS6]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

Great.

Then you can concentrate on bringing us cars that are as exciting as watching paint dry.

[Oracle of Delphi]

What about Pontiac? How will Pontiac feel?

I would suggest a logo change from "PONTIAC IS CAR" to "PONTIAC IS DEAD". Just a thought.

Edited January 19, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Robert Hall]

Great.

Then you can concentrate on bringing us cars that are as exciting as watching paint dry.

Chevrolet Europe: A Korean Revolution. All FWD generics, all the time. Will Chevrolet NA have the same fate?

Edited January 19, 2008 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

I would suggest a logo change from "PONTIAC IS CAR" to "PONTIAC IS DEAD". Just a thought.

Stupidity incarnate.

[thegriffon]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

Such animosity is unprofessional and will end up killing GM. Holden exists for the same reason Opel does, irrespective of vehicle development or manufacturing plants. That is to sell GM vehicles in the Australian market. For volume players that means having an Australian manufacturing presence, however limited. Nissan was once a big seller in the Australian market with one of the first local plants after GM and Ford. When they closed down the local plant sales crashed and haven't really recovered, despite steadily improving product. Do you want that to happen to GM? Can you imagine what would happen to GM's European sales if they decied to rebadge all Opels and Vauxhalls as Saturns? Why not after all, when they sell the same products. Why, do we really need Opel. After all it's increasing just a marketing unit for vehicles engineered by GM Europe and built by GM Manufacturing and GM Powertrain. Now, I can see that there may be many people at Holden who need to get the boot, relics from the old guard who don't think Cadillac would sell in Australia, who though it would be OK to keep importing the Astra from Europe instead of South Africa despite the cost (because they were close to the guys in GM Europe), who listen too much to the parochial Aussie press (who would take PCS out into the desert and leave him there to die of heatstroke and dehydration if they knew his attitude—especially since without Holden neither Toyota, Ford, nor Mitsubishi could keep building cars in Australia as all the suppliers would collapse), etc. etc.. But those guys are mostly gone now anyway. Gene Stefanshyn from GMNA is effectively running vehicle development, Mark Reuss will be in charge soon, succeeding Dennis Mooney from GMNA, and locals with talent have been sent to GM Daewoo and GMNA. Hummer is already here and doing well, Cadillac will be arriving soon, and after that possibly Chevrolet, at least for the Camaro (which has an Australian motor racing heritage the locals will appreciate at least).

[ZL-1]

A question from something that occurred to me while reading your post: What do you think about having a Chevrolet-Holden-Cadillac lineup in Australia, with Holden=Saturn=Opel?

Edited January 19, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

A question from something that occurred to me while reading your post: What do you think about having a Chevrolet-Holden-Cadillac lineup in Australia, with Holden=Saturn=Opel?

The Australian market is too small for that, I would think.