Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO DEAD

[thegriffon]

BMW and Mercedes are already regularly fined for not meeting CAFE, and the penalties are just passed along to the consumers, who have been willing to pay the cost and more.

[hyperv6]

BMW and Mercedes are already regularly fined for not meeting CAFE, and the penalties are just passed along to the consumers, who have been willing to pay the cost and more.

I know they have in the past and present but I just don't see that loop hole being left open.

There is a good chance I will be wrong but I don't think they will leave this loop hole open if for very long. The people in washing ton are playing with this ball now and the ones that want in want even more blood.

I am expecting that this loope hole will be stopped or the penalty will be made in some other way vs a guzzler tax. You just can't assume these wacko's are finished.

[Duncan]

Wow. Lots to talk about here, but then GM is a big company...

First, engines. Who says V8s can't just get smaller for a while instead of getting continually larger (again)? Why is it that every vehicle getting a V8 has to have the full-tilt 6.0? Sell the new G8 as a base 3.6 V6, the GT with 5.3 V8, and the GXP with the 6.0. Same goes for the Camaro, just change the models to base-RS-SS (and pull the Z28 back up to its top-line racing heritage). Also, why is the ancient Vortec V6 still being used in trucks? The Atlas 4.2 is a much, MUCH better engine that has been severely underutilized.

It's history repeating itself. GM made cars with bigger and bigger, rather than better and better, engines during the late 1960s and early 1970s. You'll note that the Pontiac OHC six was a powerful, innovative engine - and rather than being refined and improved over the years, it was instead replaced outright with Chevy's aged OHV six. The same seems to be happening to the Atlas - rather than put it in more trucks where it can do some good, it's limited to one platform that's on the verge of being discontinued.

Second, platforms. I thought the whole point of Zeta was to build a world-class rear-drive platform usable with a wide variety of drivetrains and in a wide variety of markets. Everyone here seems to think that, because the world has now turned upside down, no one will want bigger rear-drive cars anymore.

Bull.

I don't expect to see BMW and Mercedes (or even Lexus and Infiniti) make a wholesale switch to smaller cars on front-drive platforms. Sure, they'll pay for the extra construction costs and the guzzler taxes, but they're not going to avoid building what they know people will buy. Cadillac spent decades of time and millions of dollars to rebuild itself into something world-class - if they want to play with the world's big boys, they'd be wise to keep on the path they've already been traveling on since 2002 or so. If switching to more V6 engines is required to stay in that game, so be it - remember that the Germans sell a lot more six-cylinders under the hoods of their big cars; we're the ones taking all the V8s and V12s.

And if using the Alpha program produces a smaller, less "conventional" rear-drive Cadillac than Americans are used to, GOOD! 'Bout time there was a credible American rival to the 1-series or 3-series.

Third, brands. Chevrolet is now (thanks to Daewoo), and will remain, a global brand. Saturn is America's version of Vauxhall, picking and choosing from the global portfolio to fit a specific market. Buick is a smash hit in China - I think it's only a matter of time before that goodwill starts crossing national boundaries in a big way throughout Asia. As for its image in the US - the Enclave is a fine start, which hopefully will lead to similar "statement" cars in the future. Holden will always be its own entity - as others have suggested, I'm pretty sure that Aussies would revolt if it were tampered with or killed outright. Opel/Vauxhall are a similar case for Europe. Hummer is becoming an icon on the level of Jeep or Land Rover, though it still needs to build some cred up for itself.

Which leaves a few brands in what might be considered as tougher spots: Pontiac, GMC, and Saab.

Pontiac may be a North American specialty taste, and it does have the benefit of several years of glorious history to keep alive that "performance" flame - even if the cars are not always so well endowed as their '60s forebears.

GMC, of course, does not have the benefit of any unique history (except for way, WAY back in the '10s and '20s). However, its role as the "non-Chevy" brand is required in order to sell more trucks at the "non-Chevy" dealers. What I don't understand is why GMC can't easily become a global truck brand like that of Iveco, DAF or Volvo.

The solution, in my mind, is to finally and officially merge Pontiac-Buick-GMC into a combined American marketing effort. It's basically been that way for several years anyway, though the branding and overlap of various models has been suspect at times. Thus, the P-B-G lineup should be:

* Pontiac: G5, Vibe, G6 (rear-drive), G8, Solstice. All models get a GXP option with markedly more performance than comparable GM siblings.

* Buick: Allure, Park Avenue, Enclave, Riviera. All are rear-drive, biased toward luxury, but with V8 power (using DOD and E85) wherever possible.

* GMC: Canyon, Sierra, Acadia, Yukon, Amarillo (Ute), Savana. No substantial changes.

This also easily fits in with GM's plan to consolidate dealers wherever they can. And if, in the future, Asia's Buick distributors should decide to carry a Pontiac or GMC model here or there to expand their lineups, so much the better.

Saab and Cadillac can be similarly paired as a kind of "mini-PAG" to conquer the world's luxury markets from both ends: techno-edgy (Saab) and traditional-bling (Cadillac). Saab is biased toward front-drive and smaller premium cars, while Cadillac is rear-drive and pitched at larger-sized rivals. Throw Hummer in as the "Land Rover" competitor and you start to see the marketing synergies.

So. That covers CAFE (mostly - there will need to be more clever engineering solutions and MORE DIESELS too) and the rapidly contracting auto market.

After all this consolidation and reconfiguration, GM needs to look at its development strategies. All of the company's main design centers (North America, Australia, Asia, Europe) should be assigned a "region of influence" with an eye toward tailoring any upcoming platform designs toward their respective customer base. For instance, Australians seem to want roughly a 30/70 mix of small/large cars. Hence, Australia's (and similarly, North America's) input toward large car platforms would be proportionally bigger than that of, say, Europe. Europeans take something more like 80/20 small/large; hence they (and the Asians) would get a bigger share in small car development input.

Design, on the other hand, would reflect a truly global approach. The possible benefits of such an arrangement can be seen in the Chinese-designed Buick Park Avenue, which is more of a "real" Buick than Americans have been accustomed to in recent years. The idea, then, is that any of the various design centers can choose to put together a design for any of the company's divisions - should the Korean studio want to take on the challenge of a Pontiac sports car design, they may feel free to do so. All the proposals would be required to meet certain timetables, and all designs would be judged equally on their merits (or lack thereof). But when it comes down to choosing a final design for sign-off, voting would again be based on a proportional system, with the heads of more relevant markets (in the Pontiac's case, USA and Canada regional managers) having a "super-vote".

It's becoming a global market - which is what I think the letters "GM" ought to stand for in the future. They've got all the tools - it's a matter of using them in the right ways.

[black02]

One by one the Zeta cars will be shut down by GMNA, except maybe the ones built in North America for the life of the current UAW & CAW contracts. GMNA could pick up production for the whole world that still uses what's left of Zeta program. :AH-HA_wink: Shut Holden out of any Alpha production, then it's (Fate Accompli), no reason for Holden to exist, without Zeta and Alpha production.

When that happens, and it seems to be going that way, there will be many happy people in North America and Europe. Let's see, first there would be me , then Cadillac, GME, Chevrolet, CAW and UAW, just to name a few.

Why so much rancor? Holden has produced the most interesting four-doors at GM.

Or is "not invented here" still alive and well in Detroit?

[thegriffon]

You'll note that BPG still sells just as many cars globally as Opel/Vauxhall, despite a relative lack of investment in new models.

[Camino LS6]

You'll note that BPG still sells just as many cars globally as Opel/Vauxhall, despite a relative lack of investment in new models.

This is a key point.

And, Duncan, excellent post! I hope the logic of it sinks in in the right places.

[Duncan]

This is a key point.

And, Duncan, excellent post! I hope the logic of it sinks in in the right places.

If you mean across the Atlantic, then my intent was clear. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

If you mean across the Atlantic, then my intent was clear. :AH-HA_wink:

Or at least in Detroit.

[hyperv6]

Here in this note on the Vette future Tom Wallace gives some insight on where the V8 is headed and you can expect the same size and weight reduction for the other cars too.

The new CAFE regulations might spell the end for big V8s, but future Corvettes will be packing a similar performance punch with a smaller footprint. Automotive News sat down with the Corvette's vehicle line exec, Tom Wallace, to discuss the future of the iconic coupe and he said that a 700 hp 'Vette is off the table. Instead, Chevy is looking to lighten the Corvette's weight and utilize a smaller V8 in order to keep the same power-to-weight ratio of the current generation models. Although Wallace didn't get into details, that didn't stop AN from speculating that the next Corvette could go on a 300 to 400 pound diet and get motivation from a 4.7-liter V8 (making 150 hp less). However, Wallace's own words are more telling, saying that the next 'Vette could be "more fuel efficient [and] even nimbler than it was before.

[Duncan]

Here in this note on the Vette future Tom Wallace gives some insight on where the V8 is headed and you can expect the same size and weight reduction for the other cars too.

The new CAFE regulations might spell the end for big V8s, but future Corvettes will be packing a similar performance punch with a smaller footprint. Automotive News sat down with the Corvette's vehicle line exec, Tom Wallace, to discuss the future of the iconic coupe and he said that a 700 hp 'Vette is off the table. Instead, Chevy is looking to lighten the Corvette's weight and utilize a smaller V8 in order to keep the same power-to-weight ratio of the current generation models. Although Wallace didn't get into details, that didn't stop AN from speculating that the next Corvette could go on a 300 to 400 pound diet and get motivation from a 4.7-liter V8 (making 150 hp less). However, Wallace's own words are more telling, saying that the next 'Vette could be "more fuel efficient [and] even nimbler than it was before.

Solstice platform?

[ZL-1]

Solstice platform?

I believe the Kappa cars moving to Bowling Green, KY is indication of the two architectures merging. Maybe there will be a 'small' (i.e., Solstice/Sky) and a 'large' (i.e., Corvette/XLR) version of a NG Y-body/Kappa, or maybe a high percentage of component sharing.

[Duncan]

I believe the Kappa cars moving to Bowling Green, KY is indication of the two architectures merging. Maybe there will be a 'small' (i.e., Solstice/Sky) and a 'large' (i.e., Corvette/XLR) version of a NG Y-body/Kappa, or maybe a high percentage of component sharing.

Really, that would make sense to me for the next generation. As long as the "upper" version of the platform is rock-solid and race-ready, I don't see a problem.

People here would groan, but I think there's a distinct possibility for a six-cylinder Corvette to be sold overseas next time around. It makes more sense for Europe.

No accounting for taste, of course, but there you have it.

[Camino LS6]

Really, that would make sense to me for the next generation. As long as the "upper" version of the platform is rock-solid and race-ready, I don't see a problem.

People here would groan, but I think there's a distinct possibility for a six-cylinder Corvette to be sold overseas next time around. It makes more sense for Europe.

No accounting for taste, of course, but there you have it.

I very much doubt that GM would allow a six-cylinder Vette to be available anywhere in the world.

[Duncan]

I very much doubt that GM would allow a six-cylinder Vette to be available anywhere in the world.

There was always 1953-54...

Kidding, of course. :wink: Still, I don't think it's totally out of the question. Probably depends on what the reception to a smaller V8 is.

Edited January 24, 2008 by Duncan

[ZL-1]

Really, that would make sense to me for the next generation. As long as the "upper" version of the platform is rock-solid and race-ready, I don't see a problem.

People here would groan, but I think there's a distinct possibility for a six-cylinder Corvette to be sold overseas next time around. It makes more sense for Europe.

No accounting for taste, of course, but there you have it.

I think the Corvette will remain V8-powered. That's a model I don't see GM getting too creative with, except on what was hinted by the Autoblog story: a lighter car with a smaller engine that would get similar or slightly better performance.

Edited January 24, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

There was always 1953-54...

Kidding, of course. :wink: Still, I don't think it's totally out of the question. Probably depends on what the reception to a smaller V8 is.

Well, they got smart in '55 :AH-HA_wink:

My thinking is that with Corvette, there is no need to ever offer a six. If you can justify buying a Vette, the V8 comes with the turf. I would guess that the Corvette team would see it as a net negative in its effect on Corvette as a whole, and therefore veto the idea.

[turbo200]

if it only offered a high tech 6 cylinder that could match the level of power, refinement, flexibility offered by the sixes in the 911, I don't see how it would be a problem. After all, that car sells for more and is revered all over the world. It's usually admired to a slightly higher degree than Vette.....

[Camino LS6]

if it only offered a high tech 6 cylinder that could match the level of power, refinement, flexibility offered by the sixes in the 911, I don't see how it would be a problem. After all, that car sells for more and is revered all over the world. It's usually admired to a slightly higher degree than Vette.....

That's all well and good for a 911, but I believe it would tank in a Vette. The Vette is an alternative to cars like the 911 and has its own, different, recipe. A six in a Vette would be as wrong as a V8 in a 911.

Apples and oranges.

[turbo200]

not apples and oranges. high performance cars. the best in the world. whatever can get them to the forefront of performance all across the globe, then so be it. they all do offer different flavors, and ultimately they end up being about different things.

vette is for those stoked in americana and offering a complete performance package. 911 is for those seeking the edge of the performance meter, you can't go farther in terms of handling, accel, performance, with a touch more sophistication than vette and viper yet not too much more money. ferrari is for those seeking exclusivity, a little more custom built feel, attention to details, and an exotic look that will clearly show everyone you've got lots of money, yada yada. lamborghini offers incomporable designs, futuristic and no holds barred [which is not always a good thing]. viper is no man's land, the more expensive car for the americana fan, and that's pushing it.

they all end up offering up different things, but are trying to acheive similar goals. I think the vette's can be redefined and still offer something distinctly cool. doesn't mean it won't have a V8. but it could do all i just said and only offer a V8 as well, just saying I wouldn't view it as the end of the world if they invested in it.

Edited January 24, 2008 by turbo200

[Camino LS6]

not apples and oranges. high performance cars. the best in the world. whatever can get them to the forefront of performance all across the globe, then so be it. they all do offer different flavors, and ultimately they end up being about different things.

vette is for those stoked in americana and offering a complete performance package. 911 is for those seeking the edge of the performance meter, you can't go farther in terms of handling, accel, performance, with a touch more sophistication than vette and viper yet not too much more money. ferrari is for those seeking exclusivity, a little more custom built feel, attention to details, and an exotic look that will clearly show everyone you've got lots of money, yada yada. lamborghini offers incomporable designs, futuristic and no holds barred [which is not always a good thing]. viper is no man's land, the more expensive car for the americana fan, and that's pushing it.

they all end up offering up different things, but are trying to acheive similar goals. I think the vette's can be redefined and still offer something distinctly cool. doesn't mean it won't have a V8. but it could do all i just said and only offer a V8 as well, just saying I wouldn't view it as the end of the world if they invested in it.

I don't really disagree with what you've posted here, save to say that the flavor/approach of the Vette and 911 are apples and oranges. Hope that clarifies what I'm saying.

As for the six, I don't think it will ever happen nor that it would succeed if it did.

[Robert Hall]

Whether it would be in a Solstice or a Corvette, that 3.6 DI V6 would make a nice engine in sub-3000lb sports car, I think...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Technically, Kappa and Y-Body are the same platform anyway, right?

I thought I read somewhere that Kappa was based on the points of the Y-Body except downsized.

It would make sense for the platforms to be merged or linked in some way.

[SuperSport623]

IIRC, kappa is basiclly a parts bin special.. its got parts from everything

[Drew Dowdell]

Whether it would be in a Solstice or a Corvette, that 3.6 DI V6 would make a nice engine in sub-3000lb sports car, I think...

I think the HF would throw the balance out of wack. It's a fairly heavy engine.

Put the Saab BioPower 300hp 4cylinder in it instead.

[ZL-1]

IIRC, kappa is basiclly a parts bin special.. its got parts from everything

I think the frame was inspired by the Y-body (the structural central tunnel), and the other parts are essentially from the parts bin.

[Chicagoland]

"That was many, many decades ago...very few people remember or care. Their performance image from the '60s-70s is the.."

Umm, you prove a point, the 60's and 70s are NOW many decades ago, and to a car buyer under 35, [who lives far from Michigan] Pontiac is tarted up Chevies, with ribbed cladding. [The last Ponitac V8 died 27 years ago.] To them, the 60's is ancient history and couldnt care less. And the 70's is looked on as the joke decade, more to make fun of than to revere.

So, GM has to sell what people want to buy, not what "60's forever" activists want to see. And no way will the US ever see cheap fuel again and GM with 60% market share.

[hyperv6]

"That was many, many decades ago...very few people remember or care. Their performance image from the '60s-70s is the.."

Umm, you prove a point, the 60's and 70s are NOW many decades ago, and to a car buyer under 35, [who lives far from Michigan] Pontiac is tarted up Chevies, with ribbed cladding. [The last Ponitac V8 died 27 years ago.] To them, the 60's is ancient history and couldnt care less. And the 70's is looked on as the joke decade, more to make fun of than to revere.

So, GM has to sell what people want to buy, not what "60's forever" activists want to see. And no way will the US ever see cheap fuel again and GM with 60% market share.

I have been saying this for years. Pontiac needs to build their perfomance image on new cars and not keep trying to relive the past.

It is 2008 not 1968.

[LosAngeles]

Holden in Australia is now GM’s global ‘Home Room’ for middle-to-large rear-wheel drive vehicles including sedans and utilities.

Home Room is GM-speak for the GM division that is responsible for all the development of a particular architecture.

Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars, Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives, Brazil for Hummer and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.

Poor Vauxhall can't catch a break

[traumadog]

Just to bring back parts of an old thread...

I wonder how the Holden Coupe 60's reception is altering plans for production of a new Monaro. I guess, depending on production capacities, I'd hate to think that a low-volume coupe with a V8 (read: G8 GTO) would affect CAFE too much.

Besides, isn't showing off a hot concept coupe the way Holden got the green light to make the last Monaro anyway?

Here's to hoping...

Edited March 31, 2008 by traumadog

[Blake Noble]

Poor Vauxhall can't catch a break

Vauxhall = Opel. Opel is the center piece of GME. GME is the "homeroom" for all mid-sized, front-drive vehicles (read: Epsilon II).

In a nutshell, don't you worry about Vauxhall! :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Just to bring back parts of an old thread...

I wonder how the Holden Coupe 60's reception is altering plans for production of a new Monaro. I guess, depending on production capacities, I'd hate to think that a low-volume coupe with a V8 (read: G8 GTO) would affect CAFE too much.

Besides, isn't showing off a hot concept coupe the way Holden got the green light to make the last Monaro anyway?

Here's to hoping...

I think you better stop hoping, all I can say.

[LosAngeles]

Vauxhall = Opel. Opel is the center piece of GME. GME is the "homeroom" for all mid-sized, front-drive vehicles (read: Epsilon II).

In a nutshell, don't you worry about Vauxhall! :AH-HA_wink:

I personally think Vauxhall has a slightly different personality....it's not whole-hog Adam Opel with a griffin badge. They wouldn't have bothered with the Monaro or the VXR8 if that were the case.

And the Astra nameplate CAME from Vauxhall.

[turbo200]

there's always the hope. certainly it seems relatively feasible, the platform is built, the rolling prototype is there, and seemingly Holden has everything ready to go.

I think it can't hurt the chances if G8 starts selling out. More press like DetNews Mark Phelan's review would only help the cause.