High hopes for Chicago but,...

[makfu]

Now folks, don't take this the wrong way... but...

WHAT THE F IS THIS WHINEY-ASS NONSENSE?!!?

You ask for the return of the Camaro – GM gives you the Camaro. I expect you f’ers to get the hell over to your nearest Chevy shop and buy one, because for 6 years all I have read on C&G is how badly everyone wanted the mulletmobile back (I, by the way, full intend to get one). Now you guys are complaining about how long the car will last BEFORE IT HAS EVEN HIT SHOWROOM FLOORS?! You could at LEAST wait to start complaining until AFTER the car is officially introduced!

You ask for affordable RWD, V8 powered performance sedan – GM gives you the G8, a really fabulous car that is far better than almost any of you realize and vastly superior to almost anything in its price class (including Chrysler’s LX’s- and yeah, I have driven the ME market Lumina SS, so I know). Ohhh, it’s not a “true” ribbed for her pleasure $h!-box Pontiac –well boohoo let me cry an f’in river, I mean it’s not like it came from the country that gave us Mad Max and AC/DC.

Sweet Jesus, GM, for the first time in 35 years is actually producing excellent products on a consistent basis, including truly amazing performance metal, and you guys are STILL bitching about the company. The V8 is most certainly NOT dead and Peter Delorenzo is wrong as often as he is right, and just because Cadillac (correctly) killed the N*’s replacement does not mean you won’t see continued V8 development at GM. Yes, the Impala as a RWD car is likely dead due to volume considerations, but I would still count on a new RWD Buick flagship and a new RWD Cadillac (complete with V12) both based of Zeta in some form.

GM will continue to produce high performance automobiles, mainly because they are profitable and (shock) they have little impact on CAFE. The real problem is mid-range, high volume sedans and light trucks and that is where you will see the biggest impact from the CAFE regulations. The Camaro, the G8, the Corvettes, various Cadillac’s, etc., are (like most performance cars) relatively low volume and, provided people buy them, safe from cancellation.

This is NOT 1973. The real 70’s performance killer of smog equipment is not part of the equation. There will be no return to 170HP Corvette’s and, most importantly, GM understands that it simply must produce a wide range of appealing vehicles. Yeah, not everything will be rosey under the new mileage regulations, but stop worrying about things that haven’t happened yet and start worrying about how you'll make your new Z28 payments.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I know that the G8 would more than satisfy my requirements for a good family ride. I just wanna see the other stuff that's exciting too, aside from the excellent things like the Camaro, G8, CTS coupe, ect..... I want to see EVERYTHING from GM be exciting like it used to be.

[Camino LS6]

Here's the thing, not everyone wants a sedan (especially one without a manual) and the Camaro isn't for everyone either. I happen to like both for what they are, but they aren't what I've been after for years.

The worry about Camaro not staying around very long comes from the lack of volume products on zeta. It's a real worry now that Impala won't be going to zeta.

Lots of indications are that GM is essentially scuttling zeta, and with each cancelled variant the worry increases.

[makfu]

The G8 is a sedan, and at this point, only an automatic. That's 2 strikes.

The Camaro is over a year away and all that's left to me as a choice.

The G8 will be getting a manual in the 09 model year for the GT. As for having to wait for the Camaro and said G8, that is quite a different problem than all this pessimism about the death of performance machines from GM.

[Camino LS6]

The G8 will be getting a manual in the 09 model year for the GT. As for having to wait for the Camaro and said G8, that is quite a different problem than all this pessimism about the death of performance machines from GM.

Believe me, I hope that you are right.

[makfu]

Here's the thing, not everyone wants a sedan (especially one without a manual) and the Camaro isn't for everyone either. I happen to like both for what they are, but they aren't what I've been after for years.

The worry about Camaro not staying around very long comes from the lack of volume products on zeta. It's a real worry now that Impala won't be going to zeta.

Lots of indications are that GM is essentially scuttling zeta, and with each cancelled variant the worry increases.

No, there are not "lots of indications". What variant, beyond the Impala, has been canceled (not that it was ever confirmed in the first place)? What else did you expect to be built off the platform?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Zeta_platform

[Camino LS6]

The G8 sportwagon

[76ChevyTrucker]

Really and truly I'd love to see lots of vehicles built off the Zeta platform.

[makfu]

I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I know that the G8 would more than satisfy my requirements for a good family ride. I just wanna see the other stuff that's exciting too, aside from the excellent things like the Camaro, G8, CTS coupe, ect..... I want to see EVERYTHING from GM be exciting like it used to be.

Yes, I too would like everything to be RWD with a small block V8, but that is not realistic in this day and age. That said, I know Aura's and Malibu's are not everyone’s cup of tea, but have you driven a 'bu with the 3.6?! It's shockingly good - in the same way basic 60's GM products were. Let me tell you, I know someone who thinks the Enclave is seriously exciting (yeah, I don't get it, but hey, it's his FIRST American vehicle ever). The Volt (keep your fingers crossed) will make a whole segment of the market that doesn't even consider GM, excited. Exciting means different things to different people and right now, for the first time in a long time, GM is churning out successive models that people really want to buy! That to me is exciting. That and growing a mullet for future Camaro.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I don't necessarily want every single car that GM builds to be off Zeta, FWD cars like the Malibu (which I have test driven, albeit without the 3.6, and yes, it is an excellent drive) have their place. I'm also excited about the Volt, I really want to see a product like that running down the road, it'll be inovative, and like you've said, people actually WANT to buy it. I just wish that the V8 RWD platform could come back into prevalance as in the past. I know that the likelyhood of that ever happening is low, but that's what hoping and dreaming is about, the possibilities.

[makfu]

The G8 sportwagon

The Commodore sport-wagon (and it's various ME/ASPAC counterparts) is very much alive and well, so nothing was cancelled from a production standpoint. They just decided it wasn't a feasible product in the US (sorry, but all thee of you planning on buying one didn't quite cost justify importing the wagon) - that's not GM killing off Zeta, that's the American public preferring annoying CUV's instead of proper wagons. Plus, I don't recall it ever being confirmed for US shores anyway.

By some accounts, you might still get your Ute (though I wouldn't count on it).

[76ChevyTrucker]

A Ute would be great....it would also be my perfect excuse for buying something new that isn't a truck (since my next purchase is a 90% certainty of being a truck whilst the wife goes with a CUV)

[Camino LS6]

Yes, I too would like everything to be RWD with a small block V8, but that is not realistic in this day and age. That said, I know Aura's and Malibu's are not everyone’s cup of tea, but have you driven a 'bu with the 3.6?! It's shockingly good - in the same way basic 60's GM products were. Let me tell you, I know someone who thinks the Enclave is seriously exciting (yeah, I don't get it, but hey, it's his FIRST American vehicle ever). The Volt (keep your fingers crossed) will make a whole segment of the market that doesn't even consider GM, excited. Exciting means different things to different people and right now, for the first time in a long time, GM is churning out successive models that people really want to buy! That to me is exciting. That and growing a mullet for future Camaro.

Mak,

We really are on the same side here, and I agree with your assessment of the Malibu and Volt - they are critical products.

However, make no mistake about it, Zeta is under attack by people who should know better.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry357237

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Wait, what? The Camaro and the G8 are for only the rich?!

My eventual fear is that the Camaro will be killed again and the G8 (and possibly Pontiac with it) will be disposed of without a second thought.

If GM were to phase out Pontiac, that might be enough right now for me to give them the middle finger in the first place.

If GM truly needed these cuts to survive, then I wouldn't mind. But they need to stop freaking out like some damn little fru fru dog and devise a plan that will work while sticking to it. They can get through this without destroying more of the company or its heritage.

Edited January 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I know that the G8 would more than satisfy my requirements for a good family ride. I just wanna see the other stuff that's exciting too, aside from the excellent things like the Camaro, G8, CTS coupe, ect..... I want to see EVERYTHING from GM be exciting like it used to be.

Exactly!

GM has been making such progress and I just don't want to see them screw that up. Especially over something that would so easily be remedied.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Mak,

We really are on the same side here, and I agree with your assessment of the Malibu and Volt - they are critical products.

However, make no mistake about it, Zeta is under attack by people who should know better.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry357237

Who are these people that should know better? I want to send them an e-mail!

[makfu]

Mak,

We really are on the same side here, and I agree with your assessment of the Malibu and Volt - they are critical products.

However, make no mistake about it, Zeta is under attack by people who should know better.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry357237

IMHO, the article and its title are grossly misleading. The Manaro was dead long before this week as GM needed the capacity in Australia for other stuff (export numbers for Holden are way up from 4 years ago). Lutz may have permanently ended it, but there wasn't even so much as a mockup of a Zeta Manaro.

The big news is the cancellation of the Zeta Impala and, technically, that has been dead a year. Zeta as a platform for moderate to low volume products (~250,000 units across all divisions internationally) is doing just fine, but Zeta as a high volume solution (250,000 units just for Impala in North America) was killed back when GM halted Zeta development the first time.

However, and I am willing to put real money on this, you will still see a Zeta based Buick and a Zeta derived Cadillac.

[Camino LS6]

IMHO, the article and its title are grossly misleading. The Manaro was dead long before this week as GM needed the capacity in Australia for other stuff (export numbers for Holden are way up from 4 years ago). Lutz may have permanently ended it, but there wasn't even so much as a mockup of a Zeta Manaro.

The big news is the cancellation of the Zeta Impala and, technically, that has been dead a year. Zeta as a platform for moderate to low volume products (~250,000 units across all divisions internationally) is doing just fine, but Zeta as a high volume solution (250,000 units just for Impala in North America) was killed back when GM halted Zeta development the first time.

However, and I am willing to put real money on this, you will still see a Zeta based Buick and a Zeta derived Cadillac.

Again, I hope you are right.

[Oracle of Delphi]

IMHO, the article and its title are grossly misleading. The Manaro was dead long before this week as GM needed the capacity in Australia for other stuff (export numbers for Holden are way up from 4 years ago). Lutz may have permanently ended it, but there wasn't even so much as a mockup of a Zeta Manaro.

The big news is the cancellation of the Zeta Impala and, technically, that has been dead a year. Zeta as a platform for moderate to low volume products (~250,000 units across all divisions internationally) is doing just fine, but Zeta as a high volume solution (250,000 units just for Impala in North America) was killed back when GM halted Zeta development the first time.

However, and I am willing to put real money on this, you will still see a Zeta based Buick and a Zeta derived Cadillac.

The Monaro/GTO were going to be built in North America not OZ. Because of the exchange rates the Monaro would have been shipped to OZ, not vice versa.

[knightfan26917]

If GM abandons enthusiasts, then I will abandon GM.

Ch#$r%*et has already abandoned enthusiasts in many ways, yet for some freekin' reason, I can't get myself to completely abandon them.

*sighs*

I saw that list of enthusiasts cars from GM, but like a few others, none of them interest me. Some because of FWD drivetrain ... others because I simply cannot afford 'em at this point.

*shrugs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

CDshowcase=www.WRMN1410.com*SATURDAY.january19*2p-5p.and.8p-11p.CENTRAL

"My heart can't possibly break when it wasn't even whole to start with" ... Kelly Clarkson ... 'Because Of You'

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The Monaro/GTO were going to be built in North America not OZ. Because of the exchange rates the Monaro would have been shipped to OZ, not vice versa.

Funny...

You're the only "source" with this information.

It seems that if the plans were on the books or something was being talked about, other people (which I knwo would DEFINITELY be aware of the program) would be saying so.

Is that why GME hates GMNA? Because we chose to tango with Holden instead of you guys? No worries... *If* Zeta is cancelled, I'm sure Holden will score the lead on Alpha and we'll just tango with them anyway.

Edited January 17, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Intrepidation]

I don't see why the Impala can't go Zeta and why Zeta can't be a high-volume platform. RWD can work as a high volume platform, just ask Chrysler.

Even with CAFE, you don't see Chrysler $h!ting their pants and ready to cancel LY. Why would they if the RWD formula has proven successful, and if the platform is most likely nearly complete? Why would GM scrap a Zeta based Impala for something FWD? They don't have any readily available large FWD platforms anyway besides the G-Bodys. Why waist more money investing in a new FWD platform when an excellent RWD platform already exists? If you build it off Epsilon than you have a vehicle that would cannibalize Malibu sales.

I may be missing something, but to me it matters not which wheels are putting the power down just the efficiency of the powertrain to please CAFE.

[Delta Force79]

I'm of the same mindset as Camino, however I do like sedans as well. As long as their is a V8 driving the rear wheels, I'm happy. Granted my Riviera is v6 FWD, but it has style, and an interior I still love to this day. I made the sacrifice of a V6 and FWD for something reliable and comfy on a budget. But as far as today's auto market is concerned, nothing truly lights that fire inside me, like seeing 442, or (for me) a '58 Plymouth made to look like Christine, or a 69 Charger or 70 Challenger. The new Challenger is probably the only pony car I would consider, the Mustang is a Ford which is a no no for me, and the Camaro will be on every corner within a year. Too much exposure for me, I like rarity. So Camino I feel your pain man, but guess what? there's plenty of El Camino's still waiting for you to turn that key :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

2 are already in my garage.

[Delta Force79]

So why not make it 3? Mr. Monte Carlo himself has what 4?

[Camino LS6]

That's what the ST is (was?) for.

[ocnblu]

When Bob Lutz said GM doesn't want to "stimulate demand" for cars like a Zeta Impala, it really makes me think the car was canceled because they figured they would sell too many and put their CAFE status in jeopardy. Can anyone imagine a car company backing away from selling a vehicle they know will have a built-in customer base with police agencies, taxi companies, sport sedan enthusiasts AND the general public? Seems like death by their own sword to me. Any Epsilon Impala after the promise of one on Zeta will be a total waste of sheetmetal. The Malibu was made bigger to pick up FWD-only buyers, leaving room for 150,000 or so Zeta Impalas. With a diesel engine option and a 2-mode hybrid option, a Zeta Impala would have been right in there on efficiency goals, especially if GM also provides a compelling small car lineup to compliment the larger cars.

[daves87rs]

When Bob Lutz said GM doesn't want to "stimulate demand" for cars like a Zeta Impala, it really makes me think the car was canceled because they figured they would sell too many and put their CAFE status in jeopardy. Can anyone imagine a car company backing away from selling a vehicle they know will have a built-in customer base with police agencies, taxi companies, sport sedan enthusiasts AND the general public? Seems like death by their own sword to me. Any Epsilon Impala after the promise of one on Zeta will be a total waste of sheetmetal. The Malibu was made bigger to pick up FWD-only buyers, leaving room for 150,000 or so Zeta Impalas. With a diesel engine option and a 2-mode hybrid option, a Zeta Impala would have been right in there on efficiency goals, especially if GM also provides a compelling small car lineup to compliment the larger cars.

Actually, I think you will see that "customer base" disappear as well.....

Taxis will be reaplaced more and more with "clean" running public buses...

Police departments will feel the gas pain too... some departments around here are cutting back on their fleets...you'll see more bikes, and smaller cars....I've seen a Mailbu and a Cobalt dressed up in police gear...they'll save the big cars for when they need them....you don't need a crown vic to pull someone over...

I much as I hate the idea of killing the Zeta Impy, I feel it was the smart choice....

As long as there is a Caddy Zeta, I think I will survive....

[Intrepidation]

Actually, I think you will see that "customer base" disappear as well.....

Taxis will be reaplaced more and more with "clean" running public buses...

Police departments will feel the gas pain too... some departments around here are cutting back on their fleets...you'll see more bikes, and smaller cars....I've seen a Mailbu and a Cobalt dressed up in police gear...they'll save the big cars for when they need them....you don't need a crown vic to pull someone over...

I much as I hate the idea of killing the Zeta Impy, I feel it was the smart choice....

As long as there is a Caddy Zeta, I think I will survive....

Once again, how is killing a Zeta Impala a smart choice? If you put fuel efficient powertrains in it then it makes no difference what the platform is. No one has yet to answer me why the Zeta can be fuel efficient? It doesn't have to have a V8, or, it doesn't need a high volume V8 model...it can be mostly V6's or even turbo 4's.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

When Bob Lutz said GM doesn't want to "stimulate demand" for cars like a Zeta Impala, it really makes me think the car was canceled because they figured they would sell too many and put their CAFE status in jeopardy. Can anyone imagine a car company backing away from selling a vehicle they know will have a built-in customer base with police agencies, taxi companies, sport sedan enthusiasts AND the general public? Seems like death by their own sword to me. Any Epsilon Impala after the promise of one on Zeta will be a total waste of sheetmetal. The Malibu was made bigger to pick up FWD-only buyers, leaving room for 150,000 or so Zeta Impalas. With a diesel engine option and a 2-mode hybrid option, a Zeta Impala would have been right in there on efficiency goals, especially if GM also provides a compelling small car lineup to compliment the larger cars.

You might question this, but a Zeta Chevrolet sedan may still have a small chance of making it (you'll have to be the judge of exactly how small that chance is).

There is much debate over the Impala within GM (GME's new found influence in GMNA aside), and we haven't exactly heard any other news on it other than Lutz saying it could wind up riding on a front-wheel drive architecture and that CAFE has made GM review it's rear-drive plans a few weeks ago. We haven't heard any news other than that telling us that a Chevrolet Zeta sedan has been "canceled," "shelved," or "on hiatus" ("put on pause," maybe, but remember how long that lasted the first time? not too long). And Lutz has, obviously, hinted that a rear-drive Impala was being studied in the past, and that study could still be continuing right now.

Zeta has to sell in decent volumes for it to continue. A Pontiac/Holden sedan, Buick sedan, a Cadillac sedan, and the Camaro aren't really going to turn the volumes GM needs. There has to be a high-volume model being studied to fill this gap. If the gap isn't filled, Zeta could collapse.

It doesn't matter if you are on GMNA and Lutz's side or on GME and Carl-Peter's side, everyone is aware that a front-drive Impala can potentially cannibalize Malibu sales, as it has in the past, that a rear-drive Impala could also potentially lose sales in northern regions of the North American market, and that the W-Body and G-Body wouldn't be suitable for pinning a replacement as they both aren't getting any younger and are becoming more and more obsolete year after year. This is a situation without an easy solution when the two sides of GM aren't much willing to compromise, it seems. Not only that, it's really hard to build a business case for either one of them.

You might also question this, but this internal debate could very well end up in the Impala being stillborn.

Edited January 18, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

It would be better not to have an Impala at all than investing in a new, large, FWD platform.

I bet that they just fleet out the W Impala a bit longer and call it quits.

[76ChevyTrucker]

There is always the possibility that they will. Of course they could also bring back another nameplate of yesteryear for a Chevrolet RWD sedan. The Bel Air. It seems that GM likes to revive names that they haven't used in a while, and they certainly haven't used the Bel Air name since the concept many moons ago, and besides, our beloved Impalas and Caprices all evolved from the Bel Air in the late 50s, so why not end the production of the Impala nameplate on a "good" note (face it, the W Impala, for all its flaws, is a good seller), and bring up something new, and exciting?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Just remember, Lutz, as he's done before, has put the Chevrolet Zeta sedan on the backburner. He hasn't officially canceled it and we haven't discovered word of this. This man is really pushing for this car, so don't think it may not ever turn up again (GME or no GME). Like I said, Zeta needs a volume car to support it and, I'll repeat this, it may still show up, although later than we would like for it to.

Or, like I said, the Impala could very well wind up stillborn from internal debate.

Either outcome is possible.

Edited January 18, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[vonVeezelsnider]

It would be better not to have an Impala at all than investing in a new, large, FWD platform.

I bet that they just fleet out the W Impala a bit longer and call it quits.

I've been seeing this coming for a while now.... Nothing bigger than Malibu means that current Impala owners simply sacrifice bench seats (the few non-fleets that have them) and Hip/Shoulder room for legroom and a nicer interior. Seems like a small sacrifice to me, I could live with it as long as cars don't get any smaller than that.

[knightfan26917]

So why not make it 3? Mr. Monte Carlo himself has what 4?

*chuckles*

5 actually ... with a 6th one perhaps on the way sooner rather than later .

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

CDshowcase=www.WRMN1410.com*SATURDAY.january19*2p-5p.and.8p-11p.CENTRAL

"Be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might get it all" ... Chris Daughtery ... 'Home'

[SuperSport623]

*chuckles*

5 actually ... with a 6th one perhaps on the way sooner rather than later .

i say you need an SS soon :AH-HA_wink:

[knightfan26917]

i say you need an SS soon :AH-HA_wink:

LOL! You aren't the only one who keeps sayin' that .

Sadly, neither of the 2 potential 6th one is an SS, nor a Monte Carlo. Go figure .

*sighs*

Course, I still want a MCSS ... along with a 1975 Caprice Classic convertible.....

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I'm testing my resistance & it's wearing mighty thin" ... Eddie Rabbitt ... 'Every Which Way But Loose'

[Oracle of Delphi]

Just remember, Lutz, as he's done before, has put the Chevrolet Zeta sedan on the backburner. He hasn't officially canceled it and we haven't discovered word of this. This man is really pushing for this car, so don't think it may not ever turn up again (GME or no GME). Like I said, Zeta needs a volume car to support it and, I'll repeat this, it may still show up, although later than we would like for it to.

Or, like I said, the Impala could very well wind up stillborn from internal debate.

Either outcome is possible.

Awwwww, you found us out, we're going to bring it back as the Chevy Chevette. :AH-HA_wink:

[SuperSport623]

bring back the vega!

[Camino LS6]

Awwwww, you found us out, we're going to bring it back as the Chevy Chevette. :AH-HA_wink:

You really are trying to kill GM! :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

You really are trying to kill GM! :AH-HA_wink:

Hmmm...if they do build a Alpha for Chevy, maybe it could be named Chevette, Vega, or Nova!

[Camino LS6]

Hmmm...if they do build a Alpha for Chevy, maybe it could be named Chevette, Vega, or Nova!

Actually an Alpha Chevy would be a natural to wear the Nova badge. The other two names need to remain dead.

[Robert Hall]

Actually an Alpha Chevy would be a natural to wear the Nova badge. The other two names need to remain dead.

Agreed..Nova is the only historical small Chevy name that still would work, I think..

[SuperSport623]

im kinda partial to the nova name...

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm sure you will see and alpha Cadillac and Chevy, but anything else, the Magic Eight Ball says "Don't count on it." :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, with the press release about the GMC Ute it looks like I may not know about the G8 ST until the NY show.

That's going to be a tough wait.

[daves87rs]

Actually an Alpha Chevy would be a natural to wear the Nova badge. The other two names need to remain dead.

[ocnblu]

Nova is a nice name, but what about Monza?

[Camino LS6]

Nova is a nice name, but what about Monza?

Another good choice.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't see why the Impala can't go Zeta and why Zeta can't be a high-volume platform. RWD can work as a high volume platform, just ask Chrysler.

Even with CAFE, you don't see Chrysler $h!ting their pants and ready to cancel LY. Why would they if the RWD formula has proven successful, and if the platform is most likely nearly complete? Why would GM scrap a Zeta based Impala for something FWD? They don't have any readily available large FWD platforms anyway besides the G-Bodys. Why waist more money investing in a new FWD platform when an excellent RWD platform already exists? If you build it off Epsilon than you have a vehicle that would cannibalize Malibu sales.

I may be missing something, but to me it matters not which wheels are putting the power down just the efficiency of the powertrain to please CAFE.

I think GM's whole problem is the number of trucks they sell in relation to Ford and Chrysler.

GM is the biggest and best of the Detroit 3, so naturally Congress figured they'd f@#k GM over the most. Typical... When one of the Detroit 3 gets off the mat, all hell breaks lose to kick them right back down.

Edited January 19, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM