High hopes for Chicago but,...

[Camino LS6]

... if the G8 ST isn't annnounced there, I may shelve all notions of a new car purchase. The truth is that I don't now, nor ever will, need to buy a new car again. I have all but decided that I will not settle for close anymore, either they build exactly what I want, or I will buy used cars I actually like.

I will not compromise.

Although I like the new Camaro, it just isn't me. I don't want to be part of such a large crowd.

I may buy a used one someday, but I just can't see shelling out the cash for a car that is almost what I want.

Sad really, I enjoy buying new.

[SuperSport623]

maybe cause im young, but as you say, i see no point in buying new if i have to compromise... ill have money to buy a new car in the summer, in cash... nothing peaks my interest,... theres a small chance i may buy a used GTO, but otherewise... theres no passion in newcars....

im hoping for the ST too .... i will be so pissed if it doesnt come<_<

[Camino LS6]

Sadly, it seems as if "enthusiast" has become a dirty word at GM.

[Z-06]

Sadly, it seems as if "enthusiast" has become a dirty word at GM.

The appliancefication of the automobile has truly begun in the United States.

Edited January 15, 2008 by smallchevy

[Robert Hall]

The appliancefication of the automobile has truly begun in the United States.

That happened many years ago...look at all the Corolla and Camry buyers (not to mention the millions of FWD generics GM sold in the '80s-90s).

[Camino LS6]

That happened many years ago...look at all the Corolla and Camry buyers (not to mention the millions of FWD generics GM sold in the '80s-90s).

So the last scraps of interesting cars will now be swept away.

[makfu]

So the last scraps of interesting cars will now be swept away.

ZR-1, CTS-V, CTS Coupe, Camaro, G6 - yeah, GM hasn't introduced anything interesting lately.

Guys, relax. The sky is NOT falling and this is NOT 1973.

[Camino LS6]

ZR-1, CTS-V, CTS Coupe, Camaro, G6 - yeah, GM hasn't introduced anything interesting lately.

Guys, relax. The sky is NOT falling and this is NOT 1973.

Sure it is, only the rich will get to play.

[Robert Hall]

ZR-1, CTS-V, CTS Coupe, Camaro, G6 - yeah, GM hasn't introduced anything interesting lately.

Guys, relax. The sky is NOT falling and this is NOT 1973.

Yes, there is plenty of good stuff out now and coming....the drama queens on this board are taking things to extremes, I think.

[Bimmer325]

The appliancefication of the automobile has truly begun in the United States.

If anything, the "appliancefication" of cars happened years ago and is now slowly being reversed. The 80s and 90s gave us some of the blandest, uninspired crap the automotive industry has seen.

Look at GM's mainstream cars of the past 20 years, and then what it produces now (or will in the near future) for proof of this.

[VenSeattle]

Sure it is, only the rich will get to play.

Not as far as the Camaro, G8, and the Alpha vehicles (regardless of mainstream brand) are concerned.

[Camino LS6]

Not as far as the Camaro, G8, and the Alpha vehicles (regardless of mainstream brand) are concerned.

I have exactly one choice, or rather I will in a year or so. Yippeee

[Camino LS6]

Here is the criteria:

RWD

V8

Manual trans

Coupe

or

Convertible

or

Wagon

or

Ute

under 40k

Total right now from GM: 0

Total in a year + from GM: 1

[K.C.]

Sadly, it seems as if "enthusiast" has become a dirty word at GM.

Corvette ZR1

Cadillac CTS-V

HHR SS

Camaro

Cobalt SS

G8 GT/GXP

All sorts of performance cars and varying budgets. I don't think I agree with you based on the 6 cars I just mentioned.

[Camino LS6]

Corvette ZR1

Cadillac CTS-V

HHR SS

Camaro

Cobalt SS

G8 GT/GXP

All sorts of performance cars and varying budgets. I don't think I agree with you based on the 6 cars I just mentioned.

See my earlier post for the criteria.

Of your list:

2 are made of unobtanium

3 are undesireable (for me)

1 isn't here yet

[VenSeattle]

Here is the criteria:

RWD

V8

Manual trans

Coupe

or

Convertible

or

Wagon

or

Ute

under 40k

Total right now from GM: 0

Total in a year + from GM: 1

If you'd relinquish just one item (the V8) you'd have the Solstice, Sky, and Alpha-based vehicles to consider. I know you really want a V8, but their intent and purpose have diminished considerably aside from the "prestige" factor.

[Camino LS6]

If you'd relinquish just one item (the V8) you'd have the Solstice, Sky, and Alpha-based vehicles to consider. I know you really want a V8, but their intent and purpose have diminished considerably aside from the "prestige" factor.

I know.

I'm afraid that I am unbending on all of it.

I have to have a truck - so I do. Anything else I buy will be because I want to buy it, so I just have no reason to compromise.

[Robert Hall]

I know.

I'm afraid that I am unbending on all of it.

I have to have a truck - so I do. Anything else I buy will be because I want to buy it, so I just have no reason to compromise.

You just have to accept that's it's not 1970...you aren't going to get the wide variety of RWD V8 bodystyles that GM had then..it's a different time, different place.

[Camino LS6]

You just have to accept that's it's not 1970...you aren't going to get the wide variety of RWD V8 bodystyles that GM had then..it's a different time, different place.

I'd settle for some variety, any one of the 4 bodystyles I mentioned would do. But sedans are out - now and forever.

[Camino LS6]

Come to think of it, in 1970 GM easily had 50 models to meet my criteria.

Progress?!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I know the feeling man...

I've almost thought about just selling the Focus and getting old stuff (Some show cars and a nice daily driver)

It's be cheaper, the cars would actually appreciate as opposed to depreciate and the cars actually have personality.

That's one reason I hate the asians so much.... They began the homogeneous car wars and when the media jumped to their side, no one was ALLOWED to be different anymore.

For example; look at the Malibu. Sure it's attractive and competent enough, but it's basically the same car as a Camry or Accord. Blandish, 'big face' monochrome styling, 4 doors, the 'must have' DOHC engine and a toned down interior.

I honestly don't think it'll be as bad as some predict though... Remember: we will innovate through this, the car guys within GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, MB, et al. are just too passionate for that not to happen.

Edited January 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

Individuality is on life-support.

[daves87rs]

Corvette ZR1

Cadillac CTS-V

HHR SS

Camaro

Cobalt SS

G8 GT/GXP

All sorts of performance cars and varying budgets. I don't think I agree with you based on the 6 cars I just mentioned.

Agreed. And only a few of these I could afford : Cobalt and HHR SS...

and Maybe a V6 Camaro........

Sometimes your dream car is not a new car....

[ocnblu]

We're being told that we're not a prime market anymore, GM's hometown or not. We will be assimilated. Those of us with reasonable expectations will be disappointed. Those of us who are indifferent to the automobile will notice no difference. In the future, GMNA vehicles will grow wool and say "baahhhh" when the horn button is pressed.

Yes, the CTS coupe is a stunner... it is a Cadillac. The Camaro is a stunner... but with no platform mates to support the investment here in NA, how long will it last? Big deal... a Buick bound for China, is that going to keep the Camaro viable?

Enthusiasts who are GM loyalists (and that herd is thinning daily as time ticks with no answers from GM brass), who are everyday Americans on a budget, are being told that they cannot have what they want, it is that simple (nana na NA naaaah naah). Who will take up the slack?

[Camino LS6]

That's it exactly, Ocn.

We have been gawking at Holdens for how long now?

Still nothing on the lot.

I intend to do my part, I will buy what I like and only what I like. I will not settle for a sedan, a V6, or FWD. Isn't going to happen.

[Camino LS6]

Still, all is not yet lost.

It looks as though my sig will finally be changing one way or the other, let's hope for a show appearance of the Ute in some form soon.

If I'm disappointed, it's back to the older stuff for me.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

You just have to accept that's it's not 1970...you aren't going to get the wide variety of RWD V8 bodystyles that GM had then..it's a different time, different place.

It has nothing to do with it being 1970, 1980, 1990, or whenever. What Camino, F_O_G, myself, and other enthusiasts of the same mindset receive grievance from is the fact that the auto industry offers less and less to be really excited about year after year, regulation after regulation, model after model. Recently we were told about products that I know would really make me reconsider my assessment on the industry. Now we are told that we cannot have at least a handful of models that would cater to our specific tastes with each succeeding generation because, simply, the beancounters just do not want to make the effort.*

We aren't really asking for much or for something impossible.

(*Well, actually, I can't say I'm being ignored, for the moment, anyway. The new Camaro does meet my requirements for a new car purchase, and I will get one before GM kills it once again. Then, after that, if the industry really does two very large leaps backward, I'll probably be restoring either a '67 or '73 Chevrolet C10, a '69 or '70 Camaro, and making due with a few used CTS sedans and coupes and a few used Silverados until they put me six-feet under.)

Edited January 16, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

Therein lies the danger.

Does GM really want to alienate the enthusiasts?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Therein lies the danger.

Does GM really want to alienate the enthusiasts?

I think if they do, they will pay for it tenfold.

[ocnblu]

Enthusiasts are THE most loyal group of customers a car company can hope for. We pay attention. And we are trendsetters, we are the men and women who are first to purchase the newest, coolest thing out of our favorite company. We get the product on the road first for the rest of the potential market to see and hopefully buy as well, a trickle-down effect. We are GM's best advertisement.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Enthusiasts are THE most loyal group of customers a car company can hope for. We pay attention. And we are trendsetters, we are the men and women who are first to purchase the newest, coolest thing out of our favorite company. We get the product on the road first for the rest of the potential market to see and hopefully buy as well, a trickle-down effect. We are GM's best advertisement.

And yet it seems there is a large portion of GM brass who deliberately ignore this knowledge and are ready to sweep us under the rug at whim.

[Camino LS6]

Should the Ute not end up here, needless to say it won't sit well with me. But consider, GM has been taunting me with hints and hopes for over a decade now and with the big reward so close, having it ripped away at the last moment is particularly unpleasant.

Let's hope that that does not happen.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Should the Ute not end up here, needless to say it won't sit well with me. But consider, GM has been taunting me with hints and hopes for over a decade now and with the big reward so close, having it ripped away at the last moment is particularly unpleasant.

Let's hope that that does not happen.

I feel your pain, I really do.

However, I believe that history might not judge W and Company as harshly as one might think. Yes, the contemporary classics from present day GM will be the 5G Camaro, CTS, Cobalt SS, and of course the Corvette, but I think that in 50 years, if I join an automotive forum and say that one of my first cars was an Impala, I won't be bombarded with comments like "Jee whiz that was an antiquated platform by 2007" and "Now that was a platform that led GM astray" but rather with "That was a cool car, too bad it wasn't an SS" or "I heard they were really well built" or, here's the kicker; "I bet it rode real nice, we don't have cars as traditionally American as that anymore *sniff* *motions anemic Epsilon IV 4cyl global midsizer*". Believe it. The W- and G- are the last thing anything close to all American that's gonna come from the General... sure they may be FOMGWD but whatever replaces W and G (not Zeta, if they are replaced at all) will be shorter, narrower, stiffer suspension, less hip and shoulder room, and European in feel, and NO V8s. So enjoy them while you can, you may come to appreciate them later.

Edited January 16, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[Camino LS6]

I feel your pain, I really do.

However, I believe that history might not judge W and Company as harshly as one might think. Yes, the contemporary classics from present day GM will be the 5G Camaro, CTS, Cobalt SS, and of course the Corvette, but I think that in 50 years, if I join an automotive forum and say that one of my first cars was an Impala, I won't be bombarded with comments like "Jee whiz that was an antiquated platform by 2007" and "Now that was a platform that led GM astray" but rather with "That was a cool car, too bad it wasn't an SS" or "I heard they were really well built" or, here's the kicker; "I bet it rode real nice, we don't have cars as traditionally American as that anymore *sniff* *motions anemic Epsilon IV 4cyl global midsizer*". Believe it. The W- and G- are the last thing anything close to all American that's gonna come from the General... sure they may be FOMGWD but whatever replaces W and G (not Zeta, if they are replaced at all) will be shorter, narrower, stiffer suspension, less hip and shoulder room, and European in feel, and NO V8s. So enjoy them while you can, you may come to appreciate them later.

Gotta tell ya, I doubt that.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Gotta tell ya, I doubt that.

C'est la vie... What will be will be. . How many people in 1964 thought the Corvair would be grudgingly loved today... how many in 1976 thought a 455 V8 LeSabre would captivate an online community?

Edited January 16, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[Z-06]

I feel your pain, I really do.

However, I believe that history might not judge W and Company as harshly as one might think. Yes, the contemporary classics from present day GM will be the 5G Camaro, CTS, Cobalt SS, and of course the Corvette, but I think that in 50 years, if I join an automotive forum and say that one of my first cars was an Impala, I won't be bombarded with comments like "Jee whiz that was an antiquated platform by 2007" and "Now that was a platform that led GM astray" but rather with "That was a cool car, too bad it wasn't an SS" or "I heard they were really well built" or, here's the kicker; "I bet it rode real nice, we don't have cars as traditionally American as that anymore *sniff* *motions anemic Epsilon IV 4cyl global midsizer*". Believe it. The W- and G- are the last thing anything close to all American that's gonna come from the General... sure they may be FOMGWD but whatever replaces W and G (not Zeta, if they are replaced at all) will be shorter, narrower, stiffer suspension, less hip and shoulder room, and European in feel, and NO V8s. So enjoy them while you can, you may come to appreciate them later.

Would be true if wussy boys are of our age then who know automobiles as appliances having a 200 mile range on charge and burn water.

[Oracle of Delphi]

C'est la vie... What will be will be.

The song is "Que Sera Sera", sing it with me von!

[Z-06]

A Mogul king had the following phrase written on his ring.

"Even these days will go."

Good or bad these days will pass and there will come a time when Zeta 2 will rule and gas will be $1/gallon because of competitive energy methods being invented and brought.

Keep the Faith Camino and hang in there.

[Camino LS6]

A Mogul king had the following phrase written on his ring.

"Even these days will go."

Good or bad these days will pass and there will come a time when Zeta 2 will rule and gas will be $1/gallon because of competitive energy methods being invented and brought.

Keep the Faith Camino and hang in there.

Doing my best.

[K.C.]

I hate to be insensitive, but who says that performance cars are dying with GM? Where was that big announcement? Did I miss it?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The past few years have been very tough on a lot of us.

But by god, we waived the GM/Detroit flag the whole time. Now, just as things seem to be getting better and going right, the idiots in Washington screw us out of the treasure. (sounds familiar, right?)

If GM abandons enthusiasts, then I will abandon GM. And I hate to do that since it isn't really their fault that all of this happened. I don't think it will happen, in fact all I think GM needs is a more balanced portfolio and we can have our cake and eat it too.

But if I do abandon GM I'll continue to preserve the legacy that was the company (and thus, america) through restoration and rescue. When they come to take that legacy away from me, I'll punch the time clock for good (Just like my sig says) and hopefully take at least 4 or 5 of those communist b*st*rds with me.

Edited January 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[daves87rs]

I feel your pain, I really do.

However, I believe that history might not judge W and Company as harshly as one might think. Yes, the contemporary classics from present day GM will be the 5G Camaro, CTS, Cobalt SS, and of course the Corvette, but I think that in 50 years, if I join an automotive forum and say that one of my first cars was an Impala, I won't be bombarded with comments like "Jee whiz that was an antiquated platform by 2007" and "Now that was a platform that led GM astray" but rather with "That was a cool car, too bad it wasn't an SS" or "I heard they were really well built" or, here's the kicker; "I bet it rode real nice, we don't have cars as traditionally American as that anymore *sniff* *motions anemic Epsilon IV 4cyl global midsizer*". Believe it. The W- and G- are the last thing anything close to all American that's gonna come from the General... sure they may be FOMGWD but whatever replaces W and G (not Zeta, if they are replaced at all) will be shorter, narrower, stiffer suspension, less hip and shoulder room, and European in feel, and NO V8s. So enjoy them while you can, you may come to appreciate them later.

Crazy as it sounds, I'm going to have to agree..(well, almost, anyways... :AH-HA_wink: )

Granted the W bodies may not have set the world on fire, but we can still call them our own.

Many of them will be riding on the road for years to come. Whether you think it was good or bad-they offer a "different" kind of ride.....

As we close in, catch, and hopefully pass import cars-the more we become like them.

When I look at the HHR, Camaro, and the Zetas, I still see hope.....

[daves87rs]

We're being told that we're not a prime market anymore, GM's hometown or not. We will be assimilated. Those of us with reasonable expectations will be disappointed. Those of us who are indifferent to the automobile will notice no difference. In the future, GMNA vehicles will grow wool and say "baahhhh" when the horn button is pressed.

Yes, the CTS coupe is a stunner... it is a Cadillac. The Camaro is a stunner... but with no platform mates to support the investment here in NA, how long will it last? Big deal... a Buick bound for China, is that going to keep the Camaro viable?

Enthusiasts who are GM loyalists (and that herd is thinning daily as time ticks with no answers from GM brass), who are everyday Americans on a budget, are being told that they cannot have what they want, it is that simple (nana na NA naaaah naah). Who will take up the slack?

GM not only has to be better, but different as well.

Right now that it hard in mainstream cars....they have to make their money somewhere....

As long as they do well, we should still have our "toys"

[daves87rs]

C'est la vie... What will be will be. . How many people in 1964 thought the Corvair would be grudgingly loved today... how many in 1976 thought a 455 V8 LeSabre would captivate an online community?

[daves87rs]

I hate to be insensitive, but who says that performance cars are dying with GM? Where was that big announcement? Did I miss it?

Nah, I think we're all worried that between CAFE and high gas prices will kill all the great fun cars that we are used to....

[daves87rs]

The past few years have been very tough on a lot of us.

But by god, we waived the GM/Detroit flag the whole time. Now, just as things seem to be getting better and going right, the idiots in Washington screw us out of the treasure. (sounds familiar, right?)

If GM abandons enthusiasts, then I will abandon GM. And I hate to do that since it isn't really their fault that all of this happened. I don't think it will happen, in fact all I think GM needs is a more balanced portfolio and we can have our cake and eat it too.

But if I do abandon GM I'll continue to preserve the legacy that was the company (and thus, america) through restoration and rescue. When they come to take that legacy away from me, I'll punch the time clock for good (Just like my sig says) and hopefully take at least 4 or 5 of those communist b*st*rds with me.

Well, I think if GM abandons the enthusiasts, so will pretty much so wll everyone else-and I will be looking for a new hobby...or a bunch of old cars.....

[SuperSport623]

like FOG said... if they start to turn a shoulder to the enthusiests, my association with GM will be restomoding old cars... by the day i feel more and more that i will never have any reason to buy a new car...

[makfu]

Sure it is, only the rich will get to play.

Wait, what? The Camaro and the G8 are for only the rich?!

[Camino LS6]

The G8 is a sedan, and at this point, only an automatic. That's 2 strikes.

The Camaro is over a year away and all that's left to me as a choice.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I have to agree with Camino, and FOG, and everyone else here. I'm an enthusiast, I want something that will meet my specs, and I want it from GM. If that means that I'll have to buy old and restore, then that's what I have to do, but I'd much prefer to buy something new from them. I'm pretty simple to please, I want something that is RWD, has a V8 powerplant available, a manual transmission also available, and be able to seat me and the family if I want. I know that the G8 will meet most of those requirements, but I also want to see other things from GM, I don't want cookie cutter. I know that right now I can be considered a hypocrite since I currently own both a w-body and a Cobalt (can't remember the architecture she's built on), but that's simply because that's all I could find at the time to choose from that wouldn't have ruined the parking book.