VE Sportwagon will not make it to US says Bob Lutz

[douglask]

Despite strong interest within GM, the VE Sportwagon will not make it to America

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS in DETROIT 15 January 2008

www.goauto.com.au

HOLDEN will not export the VE Sportwagon to the United States in the foreseeable future as Americans continue to ignore wagons in virtually any size and form – in contrast to the situation in Europe where such vehicles have a healthy share of the market.

This was the bombshell dropped by General Motors' product czar Bob Lutz this week to the Australian media at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

"We looked at that, but the amount of change to meet US regulations was going to be quite a lot of money," Mr Lutz said. "And the sad truth is, as much as some of us like 'sportwagons', they just don't sell in the US.

"How often do you see an Audi wagon? How often do you see a BMW wagon? How often do you see a Mercedes wagon? The answer is, almost never.

"They're just not fashionable. I can't explain why."

Mr Lutz revealed that he championed the VE wagon strongly, but was shouted down by the number crunchers who could not make a strong enough business case for the Australian Commodore carryall.

"We have the product idea: We say: 'Hey, how about taking the (Holden) Sportwagon and doing a (US Pontiac) G8 Sportwagon of it," he said.

"Then we turn it over to the marketing guys, who do the volume analysis, and they look at sales of Audi A4 wagons … zero. BMW 3 Series wagons: close to zero. Mercedes C-class wagon and E-class – it's all close to zero. The Jaguar X-Type … it was sales proof!

"But then we say: 'Well, we think this one looks so good, that it can overcome that, and the volume planners say: well … we can only do two to three thousand, which is not worth the investment.

"So, reluctantly, in my particular case, I reluctantly gave up on that one."

The production version of the VE Sportswagon – which made a splash at last October's Australian International Motor Show in Sydney – is due to arrive early in the second quarter of this year.

Original article

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ut Ohh, another one bites the dust. :AH-HA_wink:

[ZL-1]

The Jaguar X-Type … it was sales proof!

:rotflmao:

[Camino LS6]

Just stupid.

again.

[Robert Hall]

I'm sure the cancellation of the Dodge Magnum helped this decision... wagons just don't sell in the US...too many crossovers and SUVs.

[Camino LS6]

I'm sure the cancellation of the Dodge Magnum helped this decision... wagons just don't sell in the US...too many crossovers and SUVs.

The cancellation of the Magnum gave this car an easy market - they would have sold every one imported quite easily.

[Robert Hall]

The cancellation of the Magnum gave this car an easy market - they would have sold every one imported quite easily.

I wonder how many they could have sold, though..maybe a few thousand, but beyond that..

[Camino LS6]

They could only have imported 5-10 thousand, all would have sold easily.

[RJB]

Cost vs sales became a huge factor of course. It probably is costing them a ton of money just to get the G8 over here anyway. So if the G8 takes off in sales maybe down the road the wagon might arrive.

[K.C.]

This is disappointing. I like the looks of the wagon, and I think that initial demand would have been strong, much like the Magnum, but would have tailed off substantially after the car was on the market for a year. Maybe there will be a rear drive wagon based off the Alpha architecture from Cadillac (3 series wagon competitor maybe?).

[Camino LS6]

Cost vs sales became a huge factor of course. It probably is costing them a ton of money just to get the G8 over here anyway. So if the G8 takes off in sales maybe down the road the wagon might arrive.

The wagon would have helped to recoup those costs, not increase them.

[Camino LS6]

GM has one more chance left to sell me a new car in the next few years, I hope they don't blow that as well.

[GMTruckGuy74]

They could only have imported 5-10 thousand, all would have sold easily.

One would have definitely been in my garage.

With the news of $4-$5 regualr gas, my choices in 2009 are becoming limited. I really want a GMC Sierra, but the gas costs will kill me for a vehicle that isn't needed as much as it's wanted. I was really, really, really hoping that GM/Pontiac was going to bring over the G8 Sportwagon, but now that dream too is being squashed. I love my AURA, but it is too small for my overall comfort, so where does this leave me in regards to a future purchase?

To GM: I've been a loyal and diehard customer all this time, but I'm just not a happy person with you right now...

[Camino LS6]

One would have definitely been in my garage.

With the news of $4-$5 regualr gas, my choices in 2009 are becoming limited. I really want a GMC Sierra, but the gas costs will kill me for a vehicle that isn't needed as much as it's wanted. I was really, really, really hoping that GM/Pontiac was going to bring over the G8 Sportwagon, but now that dream too is being squashed. I love my AURA, but it is too small for my overall comfort, so where does this leave me in regards to a future purchase?

To GM: I've been a loyal and diehard customer all this time, but I'm just not a happy person with you right now...

Tell GM, I did.

[VenSeattle]

One would have definitely been in my garage.

With the news of $4-$5 regualr gas, my choices in 2009 are becoming limited. I really want a GMC Sierra, but the gas costs will kill me for a vehicle that isn't needed as much as it's wanted. I was really, really, really hoping that GM/Pontiac was going to bring over the G8 Sportwagon, but now that dream too is being squashed. I love my AURA, but it is too small for my overall comfort, so where does this leave me in regards to a future purchase?

To GM: I've been a loyal and diehard customer all this time, but I'm just not a happy person with you right now...

Maybe an Outlook? Is there a two-mode Hybrid GreenLine planned down the road?

[Camino LS6]

A lambda is a whole different planet compared to a Zeta wagon.

[Drew Dowdell]

this really shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. you can also blame the falling dollar for making the case for it even more difficult.

[Camino LS6]

this really shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. you can also blame the falling dollar for making the case for it even more difficult.

No matter the reasons, it is a major disappointment.

[Oracle of Delphi]

10 little, 9 little, 8 little Indians. After this cut, it becomes easier to cut other Zeta models, my money is on the ST, but I could always be wrong. More news coming, I'm most sure. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

10 little, 9 little, 8 little Indians. After this cut, it becomes easier to cut other Zeta models, my money is on the ST, but I could always be wrong. More news coming, I'm most sure. :AH-HA_wink:

I now officially hate you and everyone at GM who thinks like you.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I now officially hate you and everyone at GM who thinks like you.

Hate is such a strong word, as a person who follows Buddhist teachings, it's impossible for me to hate.

[Camino LS6]

Good thing I'm not a Buddhist.

[Drew Dowdell]

I really don't think cutting the zeta wagon for the US will have much impact at all on the overall zeta lineup.

Remember, WE have CAFE, but GM still sells to Australia, the Middle East and China.

[Camino LS6]

I really don't think cutting the zeta wagon for the US will have much impact at all on the overall zeta lineup.

Remember, WE have CAFE, but GM still sells to Australia, the Middle East and China.

But I live here. Zetas in other markets just piss me off because I can't buy one.

[VenSeattle]

A lambda is a whole different planet compared to a Zeta wagon.

So is the GMC Sierra, but he was considering it as well.

His requirements was a GM vehicle that provided more passenger room than the Aura, ample cargo room, but better gas mileage than a GMC Sierra.

He asked where that left him since the G8 wagon was canceled...

Answer: GMC Acadia/Saturn Outlook/Buick Enclave

[Camino LS6]

I wonder if that is a palatable option for him - it would not be one for me.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is really not a big surprise...

Wagons have been "out" for years...

Not to mention gas prices (which is still 60% BS, excuse-wise) the falling dollar, low, low numbers in the first place.

I really lost hope for the G8 wagon when Dodge announced plans to cancel the Magnum. GM seesm to never want to lead into any segment (Even now) and the fact that pretty much the ONLY competitor just got cancelled because of low sales didn't leave much hope.

IMO, the program was 1) extraneous and 2) a bit ahead of it's time. In the future, I think it might re-emerge and succeeed though. Just put it on the back burner and send us the ST. If the ST gets cancelled, then I'll be pissed, because it'll definitely sell.

As for Zeta; maybe GM *is* having to trim the fat a bit on that platform. We had rumors of at least 2 Cadillacs, a Buick, 3 Pontiacs and 2 Chevrolets.

One of the Chevies could be pitched almost as well FWD (Eventhough I'm not a fan of that) And one of the Pontiacs likely wouldn't sell (And the last thing this struggling division needs is another GTO like debacle)

The Zeta Caddies are a given, otherwise the division will go bust. The Camaro is a given because it's such a PR hit. The Buick *SHOULD* be a given, and, dare I say, other configurations considered? And the 2 other Pontiacs should do well also.

[Camino LS6]

I'm afraid that my faith in GM doing right by zeta is all but dead.

I'm done waiting if the ST doesn't show up.

[K.C.]

Nothing personal Camino, I'm sure. It's just business.

[Camino LS6]

Nothing personal Camino, I'm sure. It's just business.

Doesn't matter - the result is the same.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Zouch... I might have considered the Wagon... but not the others at all.

[hyperv6]

Nothing personal Camino, I'm sure. It's just business.

I think the new CAFE has more to do with the cutting of the Zeta more than anything.

While I did like the wagon I really don't think there was enough market to justify bringin it here. America is just not a wagon market anymore. The Magnym took off fast but there just were no long term sales to support it. Americans want Cross overs now and ther is nothing anyone can do about it.

Now because of the new CAFE and the hold on the Zeta I expect to see a acceleration of the Alpha and the car it will bring. We will get RWD but it will be smaller and V6 powered.

How would you like to be a product planner for car 5-6 years from now with all the flux in it. It is hard to hit a moving target.

If GM wants a wagon a small Nomad like shooting break on a Alpha might fit the bill in the future.

You know the silence on the RWD Impala is a loud signal of future Zeta. Don't be Suprised if they are already thinking about a new Camaro on the Alpha if there is a 6th Gen.

Edited January 15, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

What kills me is after all that development, and repeated delays, we end up cheated out of zeta after all.

To me that translates to GM missing the boat yet again. We should have had the Holdens here in the nineties.

[Camino LS6]

Oh well, it's not like GM ever made money doing what made them awesome in the first place. Oh, wait..

Thanks for that, I needed it.

[ocnblu]

The glee with which some people report bad news is absolutely disgusting.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I now officially hate you and everyone at GM who thinks like you.

I don't hate Custom, but ask him to translate a little slice of my sig that reflects my thoughts on what GM is now doing after showing some real promise.

If you're wondering, yes, I am dabbling in learning just a little bit of German. :AH-HA_wink:

[hyperv6]

What kills me is after all that development, and repeated delays, we end up cheated out of zeta after all.

To me that translates to GM missing the boat yet again. We should have had the Holdens here in the nineties.

GM did not miss the boat as even the RWD Chryslers are limited in their impact. It husrts us as enthusiast but car like the Malibu are what the regular joe car buyer wants. It also is the jund of car that makes money.

We may have missed out on some cars here but I don't expect Lutz to forget about us with future product. In the past Rodger Smith kind of thinking we would have never gotten the G8, CTS, ZR-1 or Camaro. Even if Bob left today his legacy will carry 5 year of his work and longer with those he leaves in place. The good news he is still here so we just keep getting more time.

The bottom line is the CAFE stanndards the goverment passed has screwed all of the enthusiast. We will still have performance and fun cars just we will have to lean new ways of doing it.

As for hate let it go if you ignore it, it will go away. Kind of like a tree falling in the woods of was it a bear sh.. oh well you know what I mean.

[BigPontiac]

Despite strong interest within GM, the VE Sportwagon will not make it to America

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS in DETROIT 15 January 2008

www.goauto.com.au

HOLDEN will not export the VE Sportwagon to the United States in the foreseeable future as Americans continue to ignore wagons in virtually any size and form – in contrast to the situation in Europe where such vehicles have a healthy share of the market.

This was the bombshell dropped by General Motors' product czar Bob Lutz this week to the Australian media at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

"We looked at that, but the amount of change to meet US regulations was going to be quite a lot of money," Mr Lutz said. "And the sad truth is, as much as some of us like 'sportwagons', they just don't sell in the US.

"How often do you see an Audi wagon? How often do you see a BMW wagon? How often do you see a Mercedes wagon? The answer is, almost never.

"They're just not fashionable. I can't explain why."

Mr Lutz revealed that he championed the VE wagon strongly, but was shouted down by the number crunchers who could not make a strong enough business case for the Australian Commodore carryall.

"We have the product idea: We say: 'Hey, how about taking the (Holden) Sportwagon and doing a (US Pontiac) G8 Sportwagon of it," he said.

"Then we turn it over to the marketing guys, who do the volume analysis, and they look at sales of Audi A4 wagons … zero. BMW 3 Series wagons: close to zero. Mercedes C-class wagon and E-class – it's all close to zero. The Jaguar X-Type … it was sales proof!

"But then we say: 'Well, we think this one looks so good, that it can overcome that, and the volume planners say: well … we can only do two to three thousand, which is not worth the investment.

"So, reluctantly, in my particular case, I reluctantly gave up on that one."

The production version of the VE Sportswagon – which made a splash at last October's Australian International Motor Show in Sydney – is due to arrive early in the second quarter of this year.

Original article

It says volumes about GM's number crunchers that they were comparing the G8 wagon to an Audi A4 and BMW 3-Series Wagon. Yet for vehicle size, it is the size of an A6 and 5-Series wagon. Maybe team GM should take a field trip outside of Michigan for a day to see how the rest of the country lives.

On my way to work this morning alone I passed a VW Jetta wagon, 2 VW Passat wagons, 4 Subaru Legacy wagons, 3 Subaru Outbacks, 1 Audi All-Road and an A6 wagon....and I wasn't looking all that hard.

What GM likely meant to say was: "Due to the poor sales of the Saab SportCombi, we don't believe there is a market for wagons in North America."

For a company that's losing marketshare, they're certainly not seeking out new niche markets to exploit. The product planners will run them right out of business.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for the thoughts, Hyper.

But I'm going to be stubborn on this one. If Smith hadn't been such a waste of oxygen, and Zarella after him, we would have had the sort of car I love for years now. As for new ways of getting performance, the only acceptable option in my view is to change the fuel rather than the cars.

There will be no v6s or small cars for me. I'm simply not willing to accept all of that. I will just reach back as far as I have to into the past and buy what I like.

That said, anything fitting my taste that slips through the CAFE mess and the beancounters will get my instant attention.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It says volumes about GM's number crunchers that they were comparing the G8 wagon to an Audi A4 and BMW 3-Series Wagon. Yet for vehicle size, it is the size of an A6 and 5-Series wagon. Maybe team GM should take a field trip outside of Michigan for a day to see how the rest of the country lives.

On my way to work this morning alone I passed a VW Jetta wagon, 2 VW Passat wagons, 4 Subaru Legacy wagons, 3 Subaru Outbacks, 1 Audi All-Road and an A6 wagon....and I wasn't looking all that hard.

What GM likely meant to say was: "Due to the poor sales of the Saab SportCombi, we don't believe there is a market for wagons in North America."

For a company that's losing marketshare, they're certainly not seeking out new niche markets to exploit. The product planners will run them right out of business.

[Z-06]

It says volumes about GM's number crunchers that they were comparing the G8 wagon to an Audi A4 and BMW 3-Series Wagon. Yet for vehicle size, it is the size of an A6 and 5-Series wagon. Maybe team GM should take a field trip outside of Michigan for a day to see how the rest of the country lives.

On my way to work this morning alone I passed a VW Jetta wagon, 2 VW Passat wagons, 4 Subaru Legacy wagons, 3 Subaru Outbacks, 1 Audi All-Road and an A6 wagon....and I wasn't looking all that hard.

What GM likely meant to say was: "Due to the poor sales of the Saab SportCombi, we don't believe there is a market for wagons in North America."

For a company that's losing marketshare, they're certainly not seeking out new niche markets to exploit. The product planners will run them right out of business.

As you said, I have always believed it is those product planning and anal-yzing middlemen in GM are forcing them into loosing market share.

As much as they think they are looking at the bigger picture. They are ending up micromanaging.

They constantly think:

1. Not getting 2% of share because of X nix it. We will introduce something else.

2. BOF small trucks and SUVs tanking? Let us abandon the market altogether and bring another FWD Lambdas and they will take care of that. In the mean time let the market share go down. This future product will bring us VOLUME. In all the strategies I know and have seen, you cannot lose a ground altogether and expect to win a war when you are having upperhand. Abandoning markets is one of the worst mistakes. It is same as people selling stocks because of bad news. That is not foresight. Rather than shoring defenses, GM removes whatever defense they have. Look at BMW after being slammed on their 7 series for being butt ugly, they changed it within two years. Have you seen any GM product getting any tremendous mid cycle makeover to keep them going? They still believe "Oh the name has been maligned let us DUMP it." That shows lack of faith on their own system. Look at TOY. Three failed generations of Turd, yet they are trying. In contrast media slamming the TBlazer and Colo-Canyon. Four years into the cycle and we are yet to see any refresh, even the V8 is dumped. GM has partly maligned their own vehicles and their own Brands upto a certain extent.

3. Zeta wagon will have only 4% share. Why bother? Don't invest now. While we have invested 1.5B in its development which may not be recovered because of this shortsightedness.

4. Why GM needs stick shifts in trucks, mid size cars, or SUVs, when their market is only 4%. Why GM needs to have navigation when their market share is only 2%. Why GM needs to have Bluetooth, because the marketshare is only 3%. The right question should be WHY NOT?

These habits were in the 60-70's and it still persists today in GM. In yesterdays those strategies made sense because people wanted to transform themselves very many times and GM's market share commaded that to justify you lose some but gain more. Cars were yet to see the glory days and create fanbase and loyalties. In today's world people want change with reputation on their back. A little market share is dog eat dog world. In someways I am glad that GM ditched the old habit of renaming the Malibu after going through the transformation. You cannot reinvent yourself altogether in today's world. There has to be some "reputation" for people to fall back on to know who you are. Flamboyance is not key, it is appliance and macromanaging through microsteps. The more you look at the automobiles the more you see they are hardly bringing anything new to the table other than outdoing others. For outdoing others you should look for details and it is devil in the details. Which means even 1% share of a small segment is a detail.

Lutz may be bringing spectacular products, but in a wholistic picture the middlemen are still having a last laugh for their crummy ideas. GM's transformation will truly take place by removing these midgets who are too strong to GM's good and too weak to get removed.

[ejspecial]

Why stop here? If GM are quick I'm sure they can still get that boatload of G8's turned around. It may make them look like pathetic weaklings but the opportunity to save 0.0001MPG for CAFE surely makes it worth the risk.

[GMTruckGuy74]

So is the GMC Sierra, but he was considering it as well.

His requirements was a GM vehicle that provided more passenger room than the Aura, ample cargo room, but better gas mileage than a GMC Sierra.

He asked where that left him since the G8 wagon was canceled...

Answer: GMC Acadia/Saturn Outlook/Buick Enclave

I wonder if that is a palatable option for him - it would not be one for me.

Well, I'm not going to say that I wouldn't like a GMC Acadia AWD or Saturn OUTLOOK AWD... but I think I'd be the same way with either of them as I am now with the Envoy - not totally happy. Don't get me wrong, I love driving my Envoy, but it's not a Sierra. While I'm content with the Envoy, I'd be a much happier person if it were a Sierra. I think if I got the Acadia or OUTLOOK, after the "new car buzz" wears off, I'd be right back to the "I wish I got a Sierra" mode. At least with the G8 Sportwagon, I like station wagons almost as I like pickup trucks, and could deal with it better.

But I can't let the news of today worry me about a purchase that is still 22 months away (or sooner if I get a pull-ahead offer). If the chance comes along for me to get something that motivates me, maybe I'll see if there's a financially capabale way of getting out of the AURA and into something else. Otherwise, I'll be waiting until November of 2009 to deal with it.

[regfootball]

I'm sure the cancellation of the Dodge Magnum helped this decision... wagons just don't sell in the US...too many crossovers and SUVs.

NAIL in the coffin. but i thought GM would look past it, i really did. Next up, cancelling the manual transmission on the sedan!

sad thing is, G8 wagon would have been awesome for me. they already nixed AWD zeta also however.

yet, we still have rumored Aura wagon in a couple years and we still have sportcombi's despite wagons=bad.

perplexing.

I wonder if Maximum Bob is sore from the scrotum job the numbers guys are doing on him.

I guess the twinforce powershift Flex is as close to a wagon as I may get.

What will become of the rumored CTS wagon?

...but we still can justify a G8 Ute?

Edited January 16, 2008 by regfootball

[turbo200]

without reading through the responses I got an answer to the first few lines of this piece.

MAKE A BUSINESS CASE FOR IT. Screw the business case. This will help repair a brand that is ailing for good product, ailing for attention for something redeeming. A brand that has a legitimate shot at becoming a youth brand at GM, actually equivalent to what it has been in the past.

This is a stupid move. WHY? Because the product is worthy, and Americans have been starved of good GM product. You want to keep the positive PR ball rolling....well then don't deprive us of reasons to rave. STUPID GM is all I can say. They have an already developed program and product and they're killing it instead of testing the waters.

Wagons' presence in Los Angeles is strong. Did anyone stop to think wagons may just be the new it vehicle if gas ever goes up to $4/gallon?

[Camino LS6]

without reading through the responses I got an answer to the first few lines of this piece.

MAKE A BUSINESS CASE FOR IT. Screw the business case. This will help repair a brand that is ailing for good product, ailing for attention for something redeeming. A brand that has a legitimate shot at becoming a youth brand at GM, actually equivalent to what it has been in the past.

This is a stupid move. WHY? Because the product is worthy, and Americans have been starved of good GM product. You want to keep the positive PR ball rolling....well then don't deprive us of reasons to rave. STUPID GM is all I can say. They have an already developed program and product and they're killing it instead of testing the waters.

Wagons' presence in Los Angeles is strong. Did anyone stop to think wagons may just be the new it vehicle if gas ever goes up to $4/gallon?

Great post.

It seems that a terrible outbreak of the myopic has happened at GM.

Must be those substandard european glasses.