GM @ NAIAS '08: Hummer HX Concept

[GMTruckGuy74]

I like it and would defintiely take the Hx/H4 over the Wrangler (and I too have always liked the Wrangler). Of course I'd like to see what the production-version changes would be, but I that doesn't change my overall impression of it. And for some reason, I can see this having a better "over-the-road" ride to it than the Wrangler. Don't ask me why though!

And not only does that exploded view show the Hummer H3/GMC Canyon/Chevy Colorado steering wheel, it shows a more "production-like" gauge & dash. Take a look for yourself!

[Chris_Doane]

Nothing more than an attempt at justifying sub-par engineering.

Yep thats right...Im just here to be a mouthpiece for the FJ.

[thegriffon]

I noticed in the Hxploded view that the steering wheel is the same one in the Colorado/Canyon/H3.

Not a coincidence, although this would be the next-gen platform.

[BuddyP]

I absolutly love it! And I'm not much of a Jeep fan. Just don't have any justifiable reason to buy one. Too bad it won't look like that in production form. Way too many concept only cues to be taken away for a production version.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yep thats right...Im just here to be a mouthpiece for the FJ.

Sure... I'll buy that.

* Actually, I wasn't pointing any fingers, it was just a random comment.

Edited January 9, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[GMTruckGuy74]

Autoblog has had these four pictures of the Hummer Hx since December 10th (almost a month now!) and no one has made mention of them here:

*Courtesy of http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/10/detroit...mer-hx-concept/

[K.C.]

This thing can steal some serious sales from the Wrangler, especially if there is a 4 door version.

[91z4me]

I like it and would defintiely take the Hx/H4 over the Wrangler (and I too have always liked the Wrangler). Of course I'd like to see what the production-version changes would be, but I that doesn't change my overall impression of it. And for some reason, I can see this having a better "over-the-road" ride to it than the Wrangler. Don't ask me why though!

And not only does that exploded view show the Hummer H3/GMC Canyon/Chevy Colorado steering wheel, it shows a more "production-like" gauge & dash. Take a look for yourself!

The steering wheel also appears to say H4 on it. :AH-HA_wink:

[thegriffon]

Autoblog has had these four pictures of the Hummer Hx since December 10th (almost a month now!) and no one has made mention of them here:

*Courtesy of http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/10/detroit...mer-hx-concept/

Look Harder.

[SAmadei]

I'd rather have an AMC Eagle SX/4.

Well, for off-roading, lets drop that SX/4 on a built Jeep CJ5 frame... but who actually off-roads these?

Total cost for my machine? Less that 5 grand... and I won't be afraid to scratch it.

[roadwarrior]

we like it for what we ask of it though

That we do, reg...that we do. No major complaints on mine (fully-loaded late '02). Still, I'll be ready to trade up when I have the money, just not sure if it'll be a Camaro, Sierra, H4, Volt...

If I lived in snow country or in the mountains, this would definitely by on my short-list when it comes time to buy, as long as they keep it close to the concept.

[turbo200]

Look Harder.

at the Colorado 4-door in the background?

[thegriffon]

No, for the earlier thread on C&G.

[turbo200]

No, for the earlier thread on C&G.

[jbartley]

off topic by ALOT; but when are we gonna see the Traverse?

[RedVee]

Great to see. HUMMER should definately be in this market. I hope there is a torquey turbo-diesel in its future.

Does HUMMER have the market reach to see a great number of these reach homes?

or, should there be a GMC cousin?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think Hummer could sell a lot of these. The brand is still prime for expansion but the question is; how much does GM want to preserve Hummer's cache?

Edited January 11, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

Volume and pricing will be critical aspects.

[NOS2006]

Any idea when the H4 will be released?

[thegriffon]

Any idea when the H4 will be released?

Yes.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Yes.

Okay, so you want to play it that way

1) Will it be before or after 2012?

2) Will any other division share the platform?

2A) If you answer yes to #2, what other division is it?

3) Will this scenario be true: the production H4 will relate very little to the Hx Concept as seen with the Pontiac G6 concept to the production G6?

4) Will a 2-door H4 be the only model offered?

[Northstar]

This thing is badass. I love it.

[BatmanGTO]

Give me better mileage than a Wrangler, 2 Doors, and all of the Off Road hardware available and I am so getting one of these...

Hx for the winter and offroading

GTO for the Summer and Track

[samy1691]

If they build it .....I WILL BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!

[smk4565]

So a 19 mpg DOHC V8 for Cadillac is dead because of CAFE, but 13 mpg Hummers are full speed ahead. I love how GM puts everything into pick up trucks and SUVs and has the CTS and Malibu as their only 2 really decent sedan offerings.

[Camino LS6]

So a 19 mpg DOHC V8 for Cadillac is dead because of CAFE, but 13 mpg Hummers are full speed ahead. I love how GM puts everything into pick up trucks and SUVs and has the CTS and Malibu as their only 2 really decent sedan offerings.

Assumption, Assumption, Assumption

[smk4565]

Assumption, Assumption, Assumption

Wagoner announced yesterday that the sole reason they ditched plans for a Northstar replacement was CAFE standards. But I don't see GM getting rid of Hummer that uses much more gas. Hummer sales were down 18 or 19% last year, they can keep cheapening the brand by offering low end models, but then the prestige wears off and people will not want them.

[PurdueGuy]

Wagoner announced yesterday that the sole reason they ditched plans for a Northstar replacement was CAFE standards. But I don't see GM getting rid of Hummer that uses much more gas. Hummer sales were down 18 or 19% last year, they can keep cheapening the brand by offering low end models, but then the prestige wears off and people will not want them.

A vehicle like this, depending on how they build it, is likely to be more off-road capable than the current Hummers - I fail to see how it dilutes the brand. It may very well get notably better fuel economy than you assume in your previous post as well. I'm going to guess that you generally hate hummer and just want it to die, or that you're just mad about the new northstar being canceled. Don't like the hummer? Don't buy it. Gosh, that was hard.

[turbo200]

Wagoner announced yesterday that the sole reason they ditched plans for a Northstar replacement was CAFE standards. But I don't see GM getting rid of Hummer that uses much more gas. Hummer sales were down 18 or 19% last year, they can keep cheapening the brand by offering low end models, but then the prestige wears off and people will not want them.

they have to pick apart where they are going to be spending money, what will drive product demand, etc.

hummer is profitable and a niche brand, i.e. not that many sales, so it won't have that great of an effect on CAFE. but it has plenty of room to grow, and the option for diesel since it already is profitable. The H4 will help grow the brand exponentially, and a 4 door based off that, along with an H3 pickup will help sales as well. Bottom line is it commands a hefty price tag, has nothing but good will from buyers associated with it, and is sold in small numbers

the Northstar engine is also sold in small quantities. but its replacement would have been entirely unique, sharing commonality most likely with the HF V6 engines, but using complex and expensive pieces and technologies, and ending up being produced in quantities less than 70k/year, worldwide.

This is what killed it. Lack of volume, and the possibility of even less volume as the years go on because of CAFE. As GM has shown, they like to keep thier engine families around for long periods of time. CAFE would have diminised any returns going into the latter part of the next decade.

One more point I want to make. Offering an H4/HX that is this cool for around 30k is not cheapening the brand, it is smart business. Carmakers have learned they can offer entry level models, just so long as those models sacrifice none of the upscale qualities of thier more expensive brethren. Our beloved BMW does it pretty well.

[smk4565]

the Northstar engine is also sold in small quantities. but its replacement would have been entirely unique, sharing commonality most likely with the HF V6 engines, but using complex and expensive pieces and technologies, and ending up being produced in quantities less than 70k/year, worldwide.

This is what killed it. Lack of volume, and the possibility of even less volume as the years go on because of CAFE. As GM has shown, they like to keep thier engine families around for long periods of time. CAFE would have diminised any returns going into the latter part of the next decade.

But Hummer only sold 55,000 units as a brand last year. Cadillac could sell 70,000 V8s, especially if they can get overseas sales going. And a V8 engine is cheaper to design than a whole car/truck. GM is whining about a 35 mpg standard hoping it will get reversed or using it as an excuse to charge more for cars or not build V8s. Cadillac will lose sales. When high gas mileage and "green" are the in things, investing in Hummer makes no sense.

[smk4565]

A vehicle like this, depending on how they build it, is likely to be more off-road capable than the current Hummers - I fail to see how it dilutes the brand. It may very well get notably better fuel economy than you assume in your previous post as well. I'm going to guess that you generally hate hummer and just want it to die, or that you're just mad about the new northstar being canceled. Don't like the hummer? Don't buy it. Gosh, that was hard.

Since this is V6, I would guess it would be around 18 mpg, but the H2 is 13 mpg and H3 is only about 16 mpg yet they won't cancel them because of CAFE. And I am upset that Cadillac won't get a V8 when Lexus and the Germans have them. Cadillac gets screwed over because GM has to fund Hummer, Saab and Buick that are all dying.

[turbo200]

But Hummer only sold 55,000 units as a brand last year. Cadillac could sell 70,000 V8s, especially if they can get overseas sales going. And a V8 engine is cheaper to design than a whole car/truck. GM is whining about a 35 mpg standard hoping it will get reversed or using it as an excuse to charge more for cars or not build V8s. Cadillac will lose sales. When high gas mileage and "green" are the in things, investing in Hummer makes no sense.

one thing you can bet on is that Cadillac will have a V8 engine available. I'm going to start calling GM "El Stupido" the more I hear of RWD cancellations, and perfectly viable platforms being thrown in the garbage, [i'm hoping for a campaign resonance similar to Obama's message]. but they really aren't completely stupid. it will be probably within reach of the current V8 prices on Cadillac, but I don't know maybe GM will feel the need to price it out of reach of many in order to help meet CAFE.

The V8 will likely be a version of the truck engines, but in DOHC form. Apparently, the UAW contract signed last year revealed a DOHC version of the 6.2 smallblock engine was in development. Clearly GM didn't feel it was worth the extra cost to develop a unique set of engines. I can see the rationale there, gas prices are surely going to rise, and the CAFE standards really impose one reality on the carmakers, they will have to find creative solutions, i.e. alternative fuels to improve mileage numbers.

I'm with you that this may be a lot of GM saying crap. but looking at the bigger picture for a minute, every single Hummer model is based off an existing GM chassis, so not that expensive to build, but a whole lot of prestige and built in demand with each new model. Your forecast for Cadillac's V8 engine sales is actually way optomistic. Already the DI V6 can produce as much power, the upgrade is waiting in the wings, so any car below Cadillac using the N* engine can be powered by the more efficient DI V6. In fact about the only car that really has to have a V8 in Cadillac's lineup are the mid level and flagship model, which GM hasn't shown a clear case for anyways. SRX and STS V8 sales are at the most maybe 15k. DTS amounts to roughly 40k. So there you have the total V8 engine sales, and again the current V8 is matched by the DI V6, so going into the future, I guess we'll see the V8 being reserved for the ultra highline models in the Cadillac lineup, and expensive versions of replacements for the STS and SRX.

Edited January 18, 2008 by turbo200

[smk4565]

If Cadillac had a larger worldwide sales, a better XLR, a flagship, a midrange model, etc they could probably sell $70,000 V8 cars. Lexus sold 329,000 vehicles in the US alone last year, BMW nearly 300,000, if Cadillac could get up near that volume and 1 out of 4 had a V8 they'd use 70,000.

I think canceling the Northstar replacement is a easy way out of building a true middle luxury car and an S-class fighter, and they will just focus on lower end luxury like Lincoln and Acura. The DI V6 may be close to the Northstar in power but the Northstar is old. The Lexus and M-B V8s are 380-390 hp and torque, vs 304 hp and 273 lb-ft Cadillac's V6. That is a big gap. An even bigger gap is the new BMW V8 with 408 hp and 446 lb-ft. A V6 can't compete in that class, and using something from the Silverado no matter how much tweaking is done won't work in the $55,000+ classes of cars.

[Intrepidation]

I love it, build it!

[turbo200]

If Cadillac had a larger worldwide sales, a better XLR, a flagship, a midrange model, etc they could probably sell $70,000 V8 cars. Lexus sold 329,000 vehicles in the US alone last year, BMW nearly 300,000, if Cadillac could get up near that volume and 1 out of 4 had a V8 they'd use 70,000.

I think canceling the Northstar replacement is a easy way out of building a true middle luxury car and an S-class fighter, and they will just focus on lower end luxury like Lincoln and Acura. The DI V6 may be close to the Northstar in power but the Northstar is old. The Lexus and M-B V8s are 380-390 hp and torque, vs 304 hp and 273 lb-ft Cadillac's V6. That is a big gap. An even bigger gap is the new BMW V8 with 408 hp and 446 lb-ft. A V6 can't compete in that class, and using something from the Silverado no matter how much tweaking is done won't work in the $55,000+ classes of cars.

you're missing the whole point. GM will not skimp on V8s at Cadillac, there will be some developed, and they will likely be competitive with what others have to offer. It's just that as we go into the future they see less demand for V8s and more for hi po efficient V6s, like turbo'd DI V6s pushing 400 hp. You are late to catch up as this has been discussed a number of times already. They will not just focus on the lower end, but they haven't publicly revealed thier plans for going uplevel, other than a DTS/STS replacement on Zeta.

Cadillac worldwide sales at this point are at almost nothing. They can HOPE to move up, but anything they do won't likely be influenced by an availability of a huge number of V8 engines. I'd venture to guess of the full line luxury carmakers, MB and BMW for example, 80% of thier V8 sales happen here. As we've discussed, CAFE will make this impossible going into the future.

As for your little Lexus/ BMW comparo.....each of those sells more than a third of volume on one model line, at Lexus it's the RX and BMW it's the 3-series. I heavily doubt they can achieve the 1 in 4 ratio of V8 engines you would like Cadillac to achieve. Though BMW is closer.

[Northstar]

If Cadillac had a larger worldwide sales, a better XLR, a flagship, a midrange model, etc they could probably sell $70,000 V8 cars. Lexus sold 329,000 vehicles in the US alone last year, BMW nearly 300,000, if Cadillac could get up near that volume and 1 out of 4 had a V8 they'd use 70,000.

I think canceling the Northstar replacement is a easy way out of building a true middle luxury car and an S-class fighter, and they will just focus on lower end luxury like Lincoln and Acura. The DI V6 may be close to the Northstar in power but the Northstar is old. The Lexus and M-B V8s are 380-390 hp and torque, vs 304 hp and 273 lb-ft Cadillac's V6. That is a big gap. An even bigger gap is the new BMW V8 with 408 hp and 446 lb-ft. A V6 can't compete in that class, and using something from the Silverado no matter how much tweaking is done won't work in the $55,000+ classes of cars.

GM will just re-do the Northstar again, I'm guessing. If they put DI on the current one and do nothing else, you're looking at 360-370HP. Other improvements should get it up to the 380+HP mark, I think. From what I heard, the UV8 had issues, anyways (not only CAFE). Think NVH.

[smk4565]

you're missing the whole point. GM will not skimp on V8s at Cadillac, there will be some developed, and they will likely be competitive with what others have to offer. It's just that as we go into the future they see less demand for V8s and more for hi po efficient V6s, like turbo'd DI V6s pushing 400 hp. You are late to catch up as this has been discussed a number of times already. They will not just focus on the lower end, but they haven't publicly revealed thier plans for going uplevel, other than a DTS/STS replacement on Zeta.

Cadillac worldwide sales at this point are at almost nothing. They can HOPE to move up, but anything they do won't likely be influenced by an availability of a huge number of V8 engines. I'd venture to guess of the full line luxury carmakers, MB and BMW for example, 80% of thier V8 sales happen here. As we've discussed, CAFE will make this impossible going into the future.

The news was GM cancelled plans for a DOHC V8 to replace the Northstar. So either they keep the 16 year old Northstar around, which is both heavy, thirsty and not that powerful or they give up on V8s, aside from a Corvette engine in a V-series. I'm all for DI V6s and turbo V6s and turbo-diesel V6s, but they need a V8 too.

Cadillac's worldwide sales are better than Saab, Hummer and probably Buick. I am not sure of Chinese sales volume of Buick vs Cadillac. If GM paid more attention to Cadillac they could grow to 500,000 units worldwide.

M-B can meet CAFE standards because the Smart Four2 gets 33/41 mpg (2006 epa) and that will balance out all their V12 and AMG V8s. Plus they have diesel and a hybrid S-class coming, and no pickup trucks getting 16 mpg to counter act. BMW has Mini Cooper and diesel engines.

[thegriffon]

They don't meet CAFE standards, they just pay fines every year. That isn't going to change because they start offering a 4-cylinder S-Class. BMW is the only manufacturer to offer a dedicated passenger-car V8 engine. MB's and Audi's are based on a common V-engine design shared with the V6 and even V10 engines (and with a lot of commonality with inline 4-cylinder engines). Toyota's are based on the new 5.7 L truck engine. 50-60% of European sales are diesels, so almost no V8s, while even in the US only the large sedans are predominantly V8s, and the grand total for all high-end manufacturers is under 60K a year. In China practically no V8, models are offered, let alone sold, and that is one of the fastest-growing markets. A new volume V8 is unnecessary. Be happy that GM will follow the Toyota strategy of using the truck block for a performance V8 family.

[thegriffon]

Hummer will continue because, well, outside the US it sells better than Cadillac, thanks to the H3 (although unlike the Captiva, which is everywhere, I have yet to see an H3). A diesel engine will only increase impact. Brazil will develop the new H3/H4 platform, shared with the NG small pickups (still several hundred thousand units worldwide) and a new Blazer. If I'm reading things correctly GM will introduce a new Zeta-based rwd/awd SUT/SUV to replace the Envoy and possibly Trailblazer (ala Discovery, Ford Territory and next Explorer).

[dcs]

Although not just, Hummer has become the poster child for light duty vehicles and global warming. A vehicle like this with e85 and or diesel option can only help the whole brand.

Also the styling is great.

b

[BuddyP]

Just saw this one yesterday at NAIAS, very nicely put together concept. I'll have pics later tonight. Irronically enough, A buddy of mine was one of the main designers/sculpters on this project for the last 2 years. I knew he was working on a Hummer concept but he never gave me any details.

[dcs]

Just saw this one yesterday at NAIAS, very nicely put together concept. I'll have pics later tonight. Irronically enough, A buddy of mine was one of the main designers/sculpters on this project for the last 2 years. I knew he was working on a Hummer concept but he never gave me any details.

Does your friend know if this concept is a definite reality? And what might be changed from concept to production.

To me this vehicle is pure fun, and that s what driving should be.

thanks

[BuddyP]

Does your friend know if this concept is a definite reality? And what might be changed from concept to production.

To me this vehicle is pure fun, and that s what driving should be.

thanks

I'll ask him the next time I see him. If it does become reality, it's obvious that it would be tonned down greatly unfortunatly.

[dcs]

BuddyP,

Thanks in advance

b