A silk purse from a sow's ear

[Camino LS6]

Cadillac is the perfect place for Alpha...they can build a true 3-series sized competitor to fit below the CTS. Chevy does seem odd, but given the international reach of the brand, maybe a Chevy Alpha will be for NA and other markets...

A Cadillac alpha would be fine, but Cadillac developing Alpha would not. The development should hinge on volume capability with an uplevel version finished by Caddy. It is much easier to add Cadillac style to a platform than de-content it for volume when designed as a preium product. If Caddy gets the nod, they will have a relatively low-volume product with built-in expense that would make creation of a Chevy alpha more difficult without ruining it.

[ocnblu]

Yeah, I remember the crankshaft balancers flying off 3.2L Cateras, that Opel engine... and the door hinge checkstraps ripping out of the doors, which required replacing the entire doorshell under warranty. Real high-quality stuff, thanks Opel. But that was then, this is now, I certainly hope quality has improved at GME.

Europeans may have remained more loyal to their domestic manufacturers than dumbass Americans have, but I am still very interested in seeing some statistics on GME quality... although I like VW, we all know they have some quality control problems here and there, is a similar record what we can expect out of Opel/Saturn when they become fully integrated?

The Alpha platform is such a perfect match for Pontiac, a complete no-brainer. Cadillac is another good spot for it. Is there really room at Chevrolet for something like a Monza sedan and coupe, or will that cannibalize turbo Cobalt sales?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A Cadillac alpha would be fine, but Cadillac developing Alpha would not. The development should hinge on volume capability with an uplevel version finished by Caddy. It is much easier to add Cadillac style to a platform than de-content it for volume when designed as a preium product. If Caddy gets the nod, they will have a relatively low-volume product with built-in expense that would make creation of a Chevy alpha more difficult without ruining it.

I don't think we will see Cadillac developing Alpha for a variety of reasons; many of which you have already pointed out. But the biggest reason is that Cadillac has already tried, and essentially failed, to make a NA RWD platform with Sigma. And the reasons were, as you stated, cost.

Sigma is a dead duck after the current CTS (Unless the cancellation of Zeta has changed things) and wasn't a very successful venture as far as I can see. Originally, the rumor/plan was that GMNA would develop Sigma into it's volume divisions but couldn't do it for obvious 'cost' concerns.

Therefore, if GM assigns the lead on Alpha to Cadillac, then they're as ignorant as they were in the late 90's (which means they're completely clueless)

Pontiac and Cadillac are perfect candidates for Alpha, especially Pontiac. The only reason I can see Chevrolet getting the platform (Other than sheer ignorance) is the death of Zeta. If Zeta dies and the Camaro is all that remains of it, then GM can develop an Alpha next gen Camaro and shed the platform. Of course, that would probably assume that Zeta dies at Pontiac as well, which means IMO, Pontiac would be as good as dead division-wise.

Chevrolet should get an Alpha, but not for North America.

It seems that the "global product leveraging" that GM harped so much about looks as if it IS NOT to be used efficiently if all of the above takes place.

There is no reason both Zeta and Alpha can't exist in NA and around the world with SPECIFIC markets and divisions. GM would be foolish not to leverage the TREMENDOUS assets it has in ALL of it's various divisions. We've already squandered Oldsmobile out of stupidity.

And FWIW, until about 3-5 years ago (The current product cycle) Opel wasn't anything more than a division of junk that had been MILKED of all profitability by the previous GM brass. The entire GME operation was losing money LONG before GMNA began to bleed out. While I am very pleased at how GME is doing, it would be very unwise on GMNA's part to hand over the reigns to an operation that hasn't even shown any long-term stability as of yet.

Edited January 7, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[CaddyXLR-V]

Cadillac has come a long , long way. The 2008 CTS is no Catera. I'm betting my money on Cadillac, someone else in Europe wants that too. Oh an Holden gave us a thoroughbred that nobody wanted to bet on. Giddy Up Horsie! :AH-HA_wink:

Cadillac is great, for people who want to spend $40,000+ on a 304hp car.

Pontiac is great for the people who want to spend $29,995 on a 362hp car, or for the GTO, 400hp for $32,000. There are some people out there, that don't want to pay a $10,000 premium just to get a premium name. That's why when I had a choice between a 330Ci and a GTO, I picked the GTO.

[VenSeattle]

A Cadillac alpha would be fine, but Cadillac developing Alpha would not. The development should hinge on volume capability with an uplevel version finished by Caddy. It is much easier to add Cadillac style to a platform than de-content it for volume when designed as a preium product. If Caddy gets the nod, they will have a relatively low-volume product with built-in expense that would make creation of a Chevy alpha more difficult without ruining it.

I'm now confused... That's the complete opposite logic everyone here praised GM for with SIGMA. No more Cadillacs compromised by needs (such as cost cutting) from other divisions... The reason the current BLS isn't fit for the US market remember? It's a compromised product, and not just because it's FWD... it's on Epsilon. A low-cost/high-volume platform. Now you're saying it's best for Pontiac, Holden, or (if comes to worst) Chevrolet to develop Cadillac's 3-series fighter... Whuh!?!

Cadillac requires built in expense to be competitive with the other luxury brands. If those needs are not met then it's just more money wasted on a warmed over/compromised Cadillac that's got the underpinnings for another Camry-crowd attractor. It would never be viewed as a competent rival to the 3-series, IS, G35/37, C350, etc.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm now confused... That's the complete opposite logic everyone here praised GM for with SIGMA. No more Cadillacs compromised by needs (such as cost cutting) from other divisions... The reason the current BLS isn't fit for the US market remember? It's a compromised product, and not just because it's FWD... it's on Epsilon. A low-cost/high-volume platform. Now you're saying it's best for Pontiac, Holden, or (if comes to worst) Chevrolet to develop Cadillac's 3-series fighter... Whuh!?!

Cadillac requires built in expense to be competitive with the other luxury brands. If those needs are not met then it's just more money wasted on a warmed over/compromised Cadillac that's got the underpinnings for another Camry-crowd attractor. It would never be viewed as a competent rival to the 3-series, IS, G35/37, C350, etc.

That was all fine and dandy until GM decided Cadillac didn't need it's own platform.

Sigma was, and still is, an EXCELLENT idea for Cadillac. However, apparently the days of Cadillac exclusive platforms are over now that Zeta was/is the primary bearer of Cadillacs. THEREFORE, Cadillac as much as I hate to say it, does not need to develop the basic platforms that underpin multiple division or they will be too costly and complex.

P.S. If Zeta really is dead, then where does that leave Cadillac in the near future? Or is Zeta just dead for anything beneath the supposed Standard Of the World?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Cadillac is great, for people who want to spend $40,000+ on a 304hp car.

Pontiac is great for the people who want to spend $29,995 on a 362hp car, or for the GTO, 400hp for $32,000. There are some people out there, that don't want to pay a $10,000 premium just to get a premium name. That's why when I had a choice between a 330Ci and a GTO, I picked the GTO.

Feel free to buy the Chevy version. :AH-HA_wink:

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'm now confused... That's the complete opposite logic everyone here praised GM for with SIGMA. No more Cadillacs compromised by needs (such as cost cutting) from other divisions... The reason the current BLS isn't fit for the US market remember? It's a compromised product, and not just because it's FWD... it's on Epsilon. A low-cost/high-volume platform. Now you're saying it's best for Pontiac, Holden, or (if comes to worst) Chevrolet to develop Cadillac's 3-series fighter... Whuh!?!

Cadillac requires built in expense to be competitive with the other luxury brands. If those needs are not met then it's just more money wasted on a warmed over/compromised Cadillac that's got the underpinnings for another Camry-crowd attractor. It would never be viewed as a competent rival to the 3-series, IS, G35/37, C350, etc.

The Cadillac is still compromised. It is not priced in the meat of the market. It is priced like a luxury car, like a Cadillac should be.

Pontiac could be so much more. The Holden Torana could be made as the next G6. A Cadillac Alpha will start at the price of a G8 GT.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Feel free to buy the Chevy version. :AH-HA_wink:

I won't, thanks. The Torana will not be replacing the Malibu anytime soon will it? G8 replacing the Impala?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I won't, thanks. The Torana will not be replacing the Malibu anytime soon will it? G8 replacing the Impala?

What Torana? :AH-HA_wink: As far as G8 goes, better get them while you can.

[capriceman]

but only a certain percent of us are true enthusiast though. The average person looks at the car, not the past, not the brand. We do, but does the main stream buyer?

[ocnblu]

No, but that could actually work for, not against the cars.

[ehaase]

Well, you fellows wanted a RWD Chevrolet sedan. You'll get it, but it will be Alpha, not Zeta.

[ejspecial]

Who's whinning? I'm stating facts. They took something that was already old when Opel gave it to them (See South America here) and sold it to Americans. Well not this American!

If you want to state facts then surely you are aware of the fact that Holden didn't take anything and Opel didn't give them anything.

Holden was made to use the Opel chassis, a decision that would have disasterous consequences for many years.

The fact is, it wasn't good enough for our conditions, which is not an indictement on Opels ability to build adequate platforms (although MB and BMW seem to manage), but the simple truth.

As many have said, the 04-06 GTO was not well received, but then neither was the Opel based Commodore, would you care to lay the blame for that on Opel ?

[Camino LS6]

Well this thread has veered a ways off-topic, but no matter.

About Alpha and a Cadillac variant, my point is that it is a much simpler thing to upgrade an existing platform to a higher level than to "de-tune" a premium one to meet volume requirements. For that reason alone Cadillac should not take the lead on Alpha.