A silk purse from a sow's ear

[Camino LS6]

Should all the predictions of the Zeta platform's demise and the end of performance cars, v8s, and RWD come to pass, I have a suggestion for GM.

Preserve one little corner of your empire that is inviolate and untouchable, an island of automotive joy amidst the sea of boredom coming our way. Keep this one small island sacrosanct and immune from the coming disaster. Don't make the error of leaving the good stuff entirely out of the portfolio as was done before. Keep just a few eggs in a different basket.

What I am saying is simply this, use Pontiac as the lone standard-bearer for performance cars and let it truly be what it is meant to be at long last. Let this one brand keep the joys of driving alive during the coming dark days and don't abandon those of us who care utterly. Once before, Pontiac has kept the dream alive - let it do so again.

No other brand in the portfolio can do this, Camaro and Corvette just aren't enough by themselves and they must share a showroom with the most utilitarian models GM builds.

Pontiac, however, can be the go to source for performance of varying sizes and bodystyles.

Camaro and Corvette stand alone as icons, and are strong enough to survive amidst the plain vanilla which will flood the market going forward. But, where is the affordable sports sedan? Where are GM's 3 and 5 series analogues? Chevy can't do this, and no other US brand should, except Pontiac.

Think it over GM, this could really work.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I agree... and a little birdie makes me think that RWD is only safe at Pontiac right now... so your idea may yet come to pass.

[ocnblu]

Before we send Pontiac to the electric chair, I demand a DNA test, which will prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Pontiac brand was, and can be, a true, affordable performance brand.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The Assassin awaits!

[Camino LS6]

The Assassin awaits!

The assassin is a fool.

[z28luvr01]

Assassinate Pontiac, assassinate GM.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Assassinate Pontiac, assassinate GM.

I don't think Rick Wagoner would agree. Even he now believes GM's future is in Europe, South America and China. The death of one local North American brand means squat, in the grand scheme of things.

See his comments here: http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...t=0#entry352432

[jcgable]

It will be interesting what happens to Pontiac. So long as it remains profitable, I see no reason why not to keep it.

[mustang84]

If Pontiac goes, I may have to re-evaluate my allegiance to GM. If Buick goes with it, I'm gone. It would take a lot for me to lose my love for GM, but elimination of another historic brand or two could do the trick.

[vonVeezelsnider]

If Pontiac goes, I may have to re-evaluate my allegiance to GM. If Buick goes with it, I'm gone. It would take a lot for me to lose my love for GM, but elimination of another historic brand or two could do the trick.

Buick's not going anywhere.

[z28luvr01]

I don't think Rick Wagoner would agree. Even he now believes GM's future is in Europe, South America and China. The death of one local North American brand means squat, in the grand scheme of things.

See his comments here: http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...t=0#entry352432

Anyone who believes that is off their rocker, plain and simple. Wagoner included.

I don't GM can afford to deal with the consequences of upsetting its home market.

[VenSeattle]

I don't think Rick Wagoner would agree. Even he now believes GM's future is in Europe, South America and China. The death of one local North American brand means squat, in the grand scheme of things.

Only the one? The wildfire suggests more. If the growth in China is truly one of GM's hallmarks, then Buick must be preserved... if only to assist with maintaining the dealership franchises with GMC in the US until Buick's line-up is completely unified and revamped in both markets.

[rambaran]

outside of this place, how many people care about pontiac? not a whole lot.

the brands been so mismanaged and diluted for so long...like that pos gp with the hollow dash--that junk can't even pass for a hyundai. and now gm could really do with fewer brands.

sometimes the best advice is the hardest advice: just learn to let go.

[ocnblu]

Hey Ven, perhaps I can interest you in a nice Azera, or Genesis sedan when you're ready to get out of your orphan. How's that sound? Ugh, sorry man. What a sickening prospect.

In response to CAFE, perhaps we will have to give up Zeta (I certainly hate the idea, don't get me wrong), but the Alpha platform could underpin an entire line of truly unique and highly desirable Pontiacs... Solstice II, coupe, convertible, sedan, and sportwagon, with Ecotec DI, turbo, 2.8 and 3.6L V6s, even a torque-happy turbodiesel engine (the BMW 1-series diesel coupe is debuting to rave reviews).

Make it so!

Edited January 6, 2008 by ocnblu

[K.C.]

I didn't know that performance cars were going to die. I just thought the way in which performance cars would be powered would change.

[VenSeattle]

Hey Ven, perhaps I can interest you in a nice Azera, or Genesis sedan when you're ready to get out of your orphan. How's that sound? Ugh, sorry man. What a sickening prospect.

In response to CAFE, perhaps we will have to give up Zeta (I certainly hate the idea, don't get me wrong), but the Alpha platform could underpin an entire line of truly unique and highly desirable Pontiacs... Solstice II, coupe, convertible, sedan, and sportwagon, with Ecotec DI, turbo, 2.8 and 3.6L V6s, even a torque-happy turbodiesel engine (the BMW 1-series diesel coupe is debuting to rave reviews).

Make it so!

My orphan? Last I checked, there have been at least a half dozen articles recently published discussing future Buick styling and line-up expansion. NG Enclave already being tested? Buick will have the Riviera concept to show at NAIAS this year as well. I simply do the same for Buick as many are doing for Pontiac: stating the brand's virtues, hoping for the best, and continue purchasing Buicks.

And... Hyundai would never be an alternative if Buick disappears. My first stop would be at Infiniti or Mercedes-Benz.

I just recently went to my dealer for service. It was nice to see a $30k G6 convertible, $33k LaCrosse Super, and a $65k GMC Denali sharing the showroom floor. The majority of products sold at B-P-GMC are not cheap. Now if the franchises appropriately represented their products. I can only hope Bellevue B-P-GMC will finally remodel in 2008 as they've promised over and over again.

[z28luvr01]

Has Oldsmobile's death taught nothing? Offing any ONE of GM's North American brands is a recipe for disaster for this market. If one brand were to be killed the public will not perceive the event as anything but another example of GM's continued decline, all the more reason to stay away from the company. And of course there's the whole financial burden associated with the actual closing.

But then again, GMNA doesn't matter anymore, does it?

[VenSeattle]

Has Oldsmobile's death taught nothing? Offing any ONE of GM's North American brands is a recipe for disaster for this market. If one brand were to be killed the public will not perceive the event as anything but another example of GM's continued decline, all the more reason to stay away from the company. And of course there's the whole financial burden associated with the actual closing.

But then again, GMNA doesn't matter anymore, does it?

4 years later and Oldsmobile's phase out continues to haunt GM and buyers. The sting lingers long after the death stroke is delivered. IMO, the negative perception from killing another brand would be best avoided if at all possible. 2008 will be hard enough for GMNA without self-destructive tendencies being acted upon.

[Satty]

Actually, I am willing to bet that a good majority of the buying public (i.e. people who dont know C&G exists) have completely forgotten about Oldsmobile.

[Robert Hall]

As PCS has hinted at, I suspect the secret strategy for forming the Pontiac-Buick-GMC structure is so it can become Buick-GMC eventually if it has to...

[CARBIZ]

Oldsmobile's demise hurt Canada more than the U.S. because Chevrolet is much weaker here and because Chev-Olds were allied, as P-B-GMC always has. All the power house stores in the greater Toronto area are P-B-GMC. Three Chev stores have closed in Toronto in the past 3 months (or are about to close.) GM lied to the dealer body by telling them that GM-DAT product was going to fill the gap, then promptly caved to the P-B-GMC dealer's whining and gave them the Wave (Aveo), cancelled the Epica (no loss, really) and also the Optra 5 and wagon. So where did that promise go?

I can't comment on whether it was a long term mistake or not, but I do know that several of my 'new Canadian' customers who had owned Oldsmobile since coming to Canada went and bought imports after Olds went away because the only defense they had against their import-loving spawn was that Olds had brought them 'good luck.' With Olds gone, said parents had no more defense and caved to their hatchlings' rabbling and bought Acuras or whatever.

I personally don't see why Pontiac or Buick has to go away, but GM absolutely must stop this tit-for-tat product duplication just for the sake of keeping certain power brokers happy. The Torrent was a travesty, to name one. If GM can differentiate Pontiac and Buick to be destinct, but give Chevrolet the tools it needs to compete against Toyota (ie., competitive small SUV and a world-class small car), then GM will have a future. Otherwise, it will just continue to be a downward spiral of closing dealers, diminishing market share and eventually either (or both) Pontiac and Buick will have to go away.

[mustang84]

Isn't Pontiac pretty popular in Canada? When I was in Montreal, I saw more Pontiacs than Chevys.

GM is dumb if they kill Pontiac, because they are still fairly popular among my age group. One of my friends recently bought a Mercury Milan, but he was looking at a Pontiac G6 also. Another friend is looking at a Grand Prix. These are guys fresh out of college and in their 20s...if GM doesn't want that kind of customer, go ahead and kill Pontiac, but also keep giving people more reasons to go to the competition.

[Satty]

Saturn and Chevy can probably pick up a lot of sales lost by eliminating Pontiac.

[VenSeattle]

Saturn and Chevy can probably pick up a lot of sales lost by eliminating Pontiac.

How would you like getting service at your local Buick-Saturn-GMC dealer?

[vonVeezelsnider]

How would you like getting service at your local Buick-Saturn-GMC dealer?

*Cringes*

I wouldn't want the Saturn commies infiltrating Buick-GMC

[daves87rs]

I don't think you'll see any more brands gone.

They can use them here-they can use them overseas...

Even Pontiac.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hey Ven, perhaps I can interest you in a nice Azera, or Genesis sedan when you're ready to get out of your orphan. How's that sound? Ugh, sorry man. What a sickening prospect.

In response to CAFE, perhaps we will have to give up Zeta (I certainly hate the idea, don't get me wrong), but the Alpha platform could underpin an entire line of truly unique and highly desirable Pontiacs... Solstice II, coupe, convertible, sedan, and sportwagon, with Ecotec DI, turbo, 2.8 and 3.6L V6s, even a torque-happy turbodiesel engine (the BMW 1-series diesel coupe is debuting to rave reviews).

Make it so!

Sorry Captian Picard, I think only two brands will be getting Alpha, a luxury brand and a volume brand. :AH-HA_wink:

[vonVeezelsnider]

Sorry Captian Picard, I think only two brands will be getting Alpha, a luxury brand and a volume brand. :AH-HA_wink:

Didn't Maximum Bob call BS on Chevy getting an Alpha?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Didn't Maximum Bob call BS on Chevy getting an Alpha?

Well of course he did wouldn't you? This is the same man that said Zeta was dead in 2005, oddly he was in fact correct, just a few years off. This is the same man that said there would be no more brand/badge engineering, what do you call these?

Saturn Outlook - GMC Acadia

Pontiac Solstice - Saturn Sky

Chevrolet Colbalt - Pontiac G5

Saturn Aura - Chevrolet Malibu

ETC, ETC, ETC!

Edited January 6, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Pontiac can be profitable. However, it'll probably take a group of very dedicated people outside of GM to present the cold hard facts to the dip$h! bureaucracy within the company that Pontiac IS viable, as well as vital, to the company's health. (If only someone within that group would just speak up before it's too late.)

Edited January 6, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[vonVeezelsnider]

Well of course he did wouldn't you?

Good Point

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well of course he did wouldn't you? This is the same man that said Zeta was dead in 2005, oddly he was in fact correct, just a few years off. This is the same man that said there would be no more brand/badge engineering, what do you call these?

Saturn Outlook - GMC Acadia

Pontiac Solstice - Saturn Sky

Chevrolet Colbalt - Pontiac G5

Saturn Aura - Chevrolet Malibu

ETC, ETC, ETC!

Umm...

Zeta was dead in 2005... THAT version, anyway. (And it still is dead)

And... Since when does sharing a platform account for badge engineering?

Once again, this thread, like many here is nothing more than a ploy to get everyone up in arms. Wagoner and Lutz (and even Forster) are good leaders and I know Wagoner regrets phasing out Olds and would be hard pressed to phase out another division.

If we were going to see another phase out, we would've seen it when GM's revenues collapsed. Numerous sources have indicated that all of GM's divisions currently have a future. Not to mention, GM is probably too cash straped right now to even phase out a division if they wanted to.

Pontiac seems to be more popular with the youth than any of GM's divisions (Just like in the 90's -- the more things change...)

OF COURSE one of the reasons the divisions were consolidated was in case one needed to be phased out. BUT GM is too desperate to save it's sliding share to forfeit Pontiac's sales IMO (Like they did with Olds --- stupid move, I know)

Buick is fine as long as China keeps going like it is.

As for Saturn... Well, they're turn around ALREADY hasn't been as rosy as GM planned. I have a hard time thinking they'll be able to extend their appeal to those of us left that Pontiac appeals to both enthusiast and non.

I'll stop there, because we've all long enough.

P.S. Why, exactly, does a member with the word Pontiac in his screen name seem to hate the division so much? I've always known of the hatred, but never known why.

Edited January 6, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Guest YellowJacket894]

P.S. Why, exactly, does a member with the word Pontiac in his screen name seem to hate the division so much? I've always known of the hatred, but never known why.

I think it all started the day Pontiac got in bed with Holden.

There are people who should learn not to get their polka-dotted panties in a bunch over Holden just because they bothered to remember how to build a American car while Roger Smith was busy tinkering with his $h!ty GM10 cars.

Edited January 6, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think it all started the day Pontiac got in bed with Holden.

There are people who should learn not to get their polka-dotted panties in a bunch over Holden just because they bothered to remember how to build a American car while Roger Smith was busy tinkering with his $h!ty GM10 cars.

I go commando, thanks for asking. :AH-HA_wink: You mean like 20 years ago when they were driving rebadged Toyotas, or when they built the last generation Monaro/GTO which was nothing but an Opel Omega with a Chevrolet Corvette engine in it, you mean like that?

Edited January 6, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I go commando, thanks for asking. :AH-HA_wink: You mean like 15 years ago when they were driving rebadged Toyotas, or when they built the last generation Monaro/GTO which was nothing but an Opel Omega with a Chevrolet Corvette engine in it, you mean like that?

Well, true, the Corolla-based Holden Nova and Pulsar-based Holden Astra are about as far as you can get from a car with any sort of enthusiast appeal. However, those cars are just rebadges of Japanese cars no one will ever yield to care about, and Holden wasn't responsible for the design, etc., of those cars from their inception. But the Monaro (as well as the other VT/VX/VY/VZ variants) did embody the spirit and values of American cars from before the 1974 oil woes. Sure, it may take more than it's share of parts from the Omega, but it was really was Holden who built that car up. And the VE enforces and embodies those concepts more so.

Edited January 6, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, true, the Corolla-based Holden Nova and Pulsar-based Holden Astra are about as far as you can get from a car with any sort of enthusiast appeal. However, those cars are just rebadges of Japanese cars no one will ever yield to care about, and Holden wasn't responsible for the design, etc., of those cars from their inception. But the Monaro (as well as the other VT/VX/VY/VZ variants) did embody the spirit and values of American cars from before the 1974 oil woes. Sure, it may take more than it's share of parts from the Omega, but it was really was Holden who built that car up. And the VE enforces and embodies those concepts more so.

Parts of the Omega? :rotflmao:

[ejspecial]

Should all the predictions of the Zeta platform's demise and the end of performance cars, v8s, and RWD come to pass, I have a suggestion for GM.

Preserve one little corner of your empire that is inviolate and untouchable, an island of automotive joy amidst the sea of boredom coming our way. Keep this one small island sacrosanct and immune from the coming disaster. Don't make the error of leaving the good stuff entirely out of the portfolio as was done before. Keep just a few eggs in a different basket.

What I am saying is simply this, use Pontiac as the lone standard-bearer for performance cars and let it truly be what it is meant to be at long last. Let this one brand keep the joys of driving alive during the coming dark days and don't abandon those of us who care utterly. Once before, Pontiac has kept the dream alive - let it do so again.

No other brand in the portfolio can do this, Camaro and Corvette just aren't enough by themselves and they must share a showroom with the most utilitarian models GM builds.

Pontiac, however, can be the go to source for performance of varying sizes and bodystyles.

Camaro and Corvette stand alone as icons, and are strong enough to survive amidst the plain vanilla which will flood the market going forward. But, where is the affordable sports sedan? Where are GM's 3 and 5 series analogues? Chevy can't do this, and no other US brand should, except Pontiac.

Think it over GM, this could really work.

Sounds like my little island - Tasmania.

[ejspecial]

Parts of the Omega? :rotflmao:

Yep, the parts that were good enough, which didn't leave much.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yep, the parts that were good enough, which didn't leave much.

Oh you mean the 10% you didn't take from the Opel Omega? Right!!!!!

[ocnblu]

Waaait a minit... I thought you adored Opel... why whine over Holden taking the dull Omega and turning it into something worthwhile? And look what it evolved into, the sweet-driving new model. Are you jealous of Holden's scrappy resourcefulness?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Waaait a minit... I thought you adored Opel... why whine over Holden taking the dull Omega and turning it into something worthwhile? And look what it evolved into, the sweet-driving new model. Are you jealous of Holden's scrappy resourcefulness?

Who's whinning? I'm stating facts. They took something that was already old when Opel gave it to them (See South America here) and sold it to Americans. Well not this American!

[Camino LS6]

Opel had the junk Omega, Holden and Cadillac got a hold of it. Cadillac gave us a mildly adapted version that remained junk, while Holden turned a mule into a thoroughbred.

Which one would you trust with Alpha?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Opel had the junk Omega, Holden and Cadillac got a hold of it. Cadillac gave us a mildly adapted version that remained junk, while Holden turned a mule into a thoroughbred.

Which one would you trust with Alpha?

Cadillac has come a long , long way. The 2008 CTS is no Catera. I'm betting my money on Cadillac, someone else in Europe wants that too. Oh an Holden gave us a thoroughbred that nobody wanted to bet on. Giddy Up Horsie! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited January 6, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Robert Hall]

Who's whinning? I'm stating facts. They took something that was already old when Opel gave it to them (See South America here) and sold it to Americans. Well not this American!

Yes, but it was certainly nicer and more modern than the lousy W-body Pontiac has..

[Camino LS6]

Funny, I went to a gathering of GTO owners last night. It was a spur of the moment thing arranged via a website. Yet, on short notice, and in January in PA, more than a dozen well-loved GTOs showed up.

Cateras only gather in scrapyards.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Funny, I went to a gathering of GTO owners last night. It was a spur of the moment thing arranged via a website. Yet, on short notice, and in January in PA, more than a dozen well-loved GTOs showed up.

Cateras only gather in scrapyards.

I think you need to re-read my last post here, or are you saying the 2008 CTS is crap?

[Camino LS6]

I think you need to re-read my last post here, or are you saying the 2008 CTS is crap?

Not crap, but not mainstream.

Caddy and Chevy are the wrong places for Alpha.

Caddy because Alpha will be too small and because Caddy will design in expense that would preclude broad appeal.

Chevy because it already has too large of a portfolio to adequately support alpha.

Clearly, the RWD expertise within GM lies with Holden and the best marketing opportunity for Alpha lies with Pontiac.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not crap, but not mainstream.

Caddy and Chevy are the wrong places for Alpha.

Caddy because Alpha will be too small and because Caddy will design in expense that would preclude broad appeal.

Chevy because it already has too large of a portfolio to adequately support alpha.

Clearly, the RWD expertise within GM lies with Holden and the best marketing opportunity for Alpha lies with Pontiac.

I think you're going to be extremely disappointed. Abraham Lincoln once said " that you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time …". Well I think this is one such occasion!

[Camino LS6]

I think you're going to be extremely disappointed. Abraham Lincoln once said " that you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time …". Well I think this is one such occasion!

If that comes to pass I believe that you will be shocked by the small number you actually end up pleasing.

[Robert Hall]

Not crap, but not mainstream.

Caddy and Chevy are the wrong places for Alpha.

Caddy because Alpha will be too small and because Caddy will design in expense that would preclude broad appeal.

Chevy because it already has too large of a portfolio to adequately support alpha.

Clearly, the RWD expertise within GM lies with Holden and the best marketing opportunity for Alpha lies with Pontiac.

Cadillac is the perfect place for Alpha...they can build a true 3-series sized competitor to fit below the CTS. Chevy does seem odd, but given the international reach of the brand, maybe a Chevy Alpha will be for NA and other markets...