GM already hedging on Volt intro date

[enzl]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/04/autos/volt...sion=2008010408

GM may miss target for plug-in hybrid

CEO Wagoner says automaker pouring massive resources into battery-powered Volt, but can't promise it'll be ready by 2010 target date.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors might not be able to hit its target to have its breakthrough electric-powered car the Chevrolet Volt in production by 2010, according to comments made by CEO Rick Wagoner during an online chat.

Wagoner, who participated in an online forum Thursday to mark the 100th anniversary of the automaker, said the company continues "to put massive resources into production as soon as possible." But he cautioned, "2010 would be great, but (we) can't guarantee that at this time."

The Volt, unveiled at the Detroit auto show a year ago, is a so-called "plug-in" hybrid that would have a lithium-ion battery that can be recharged on common household electric current.

GM says it should be able to travel up to 40 miles powered by just the battery. On longer trips the Volt would use a motor powered by gasoline or ethanol to charge the batteries, a system it calls "E-Flex."

Automakers end tough '07 with weak sales

GM (GM, Fortune 500) has already started to build advertising campaigns around the Volt, even though in the best-case scenario it is years away from production. It is seen as a way of trying to change public perceptions about the fuel efficiency and environmental responsibility of the U.S. automaker, which is more closely associated with large SUVs or pickup trucks.

"The Chevy Volt, and the E-Flex system, are really important for GM's, and I think the whole industry's, future," Wagoner said. "With the growing demand for oil, we need to diversify the sources of power for autos."

But GM and its suppliers still have work to do on developing a battery that can meet the demands for the car. Wagoner said GM is are currently bench testing batteries, but didn't give any more details about how those tests were going.

GM reported a drop in December sales Thursday that left its 2007 sales down 6 percent. Its market share fell to 23.7 percent from 24.6 percent a year earlier. While rival Toyota Motor ™ also reported a drop in December sales, it ended the year with a 3.1 percent gain in sales, taking its U.S. market share up to 16.2 percent from 15.4 percent a year earlier.

The sales gains at Toyota were helped by a nearly 70 percent jump in sales of its Prius hybrid sedan, as well as its other hybrid offerings. The Toyota hybrids run on a combination of power from a traditional gasoline engine and an electric motor, but they are not plugged in to recharge the battery.

Those sales helped Toyota move past Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) into the No. 2 spot in U.S. sales. It also helped its Toyota brand move past both Ford and Chevrolet to become the nation's best-selling brand.

[Drew Dowdell]

the money they saved by canceling the UV8 should go straight into E-flex

[thegriffon]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/04/autos/volt...sion=2008010408

GM may miss target for plug-in hybrid

CEO Wagoner says automaker pouring massive resources into battery-powered Volt, but can't promise it'll be ready by 2010 target date.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors might not be able to hit its target to have its breakthrough electric-powered car the Chevrolet Volt in production by 2010, according to comments made by CEO Rick Wagoner during an online chat.

Wagoner, who participated in an online forum Thursday to mark the 100th anniversary of the automaker, said the company continues "to put massive resources into production as soon as possible." But he cautioned, "2010 would be great, but (we) can't guarantee that at this time."

The Volt, unveiled at the Detroit auto show a year ago, is a so-called "plug-in" hybrid that would have a lithium-ion battery that can be recharged on common household electric current.

GM says it should be able to travel up to 40 miles powered by just the battery. On longer trips the Volt would use a motor powered by gasoline or ethanol to charge the batteries, a system it calls "E-Flex."

Automakers end tough '07 with weak sales

GM (GM, Fortune 500) has already started to build advertising campaigns around the Volt, even though in the best-case scenario it is years away from production. It is seen as a way of trying to change public perceptions about the fuel efficiency and environmental responsibility of the U.S. automaker, which is more closely associated with large SUVs or pickup trucks.

"The Chevy Volt, and the E-Flex system, are really important for GM's, and I think the whole industry's, future," Wagoner said. "With the growing demand for oil, we need to diversify the sources of power for autos."

But GM and its suppliers still have work to do on developing a battery that can meet the demands for the car. Wagoner said GM is are currently bench testing batteries, but didn't give any more details about how those tests were going.

GM reported a drop in December sales Thursday that left its 2007 sales down 6 percent. Its market share fell to 23.7 percent from 24.6 percent a year earlier. While rival Toyota Motor ™ also reported a drop in December sales, it ended the year with a 3.1 percent gain in sales, taking its U.S. market share up to 16.2 percent from 15.4 percent a year earlier.

The sales gains at Toyota were helped by a nearly 70 percent jump in sales of its Prius hybrid sedan, as well as its other hybrid offerings. The Toyota hybrids run on a combination of power from a traditional gasoline engine and an electric motor, but they are not plugged in to recharge the battery.

Those sales helped Toyota move past Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) into the No. 2 spot in U.S. sales. It also helped its Toyota brand move past both Ford and Chevrolet to become the nation's best-selling brand.

Errr, they've always said that (without even giving a target).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Remember Rick's tactic;

Under promise - over deliver.

This tactic is working well for GM, and it will bode well for the Volt.

Errr, they've always said that (without even giving a target).

Yeah, it's pretty obvious by the tone of the piece where this authors loyalty lies.

Edited January 4, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[CARBIZ]

I'll just wait and see. It isn't like Rick is going to call up Reuters and say, 'hey, this lithium ion thing is going swell and the Volt will be ready next week...' Like Toyota wouldn't be all over that.....

It is important to have goals. Anyone who runs a company knows that. With something as complex as the Volt, if GM is off by a few months into 2011, I will personally forgive them. Better to do it right then rush it (remember the 8-6-4 disaster of 25 years ago?)

Articles like this just prove the loyalties of the authors...and the people who post them.

[Windy-57]

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about this. While I think that getting this out somewhat on time is very important, if they need to delay a 1/2 year, that's fine. It's more important to get it right.

[Camino LS6]

I remember Lutz saying something like" we are trying like hell to get it done by the end of 2010" quite a while back.

The "hedging" characterization is just BS. There is no news in this article, even if they make the late 2010 target, the car would obviously be a 2011 model year offering.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

The "hedging" characterization is just BS. There is no news in this article, even if they make the late 2010 target, the car would obviously be a 2011 model year offering.

Yes. Remember, GM didn't exactly state if the 2010 target meant the 2010 model year or 2010 callendar year. :AH-HA_wink:

[Z-06]

The Title:

GM may miss target for plug-in hybrid

The Conclusion:

Those sales helped Toyota move past Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) into the No. 2 spot in U.S. sales. It also helped its Toyota brand move past both Ford and Chevrolet to become the nation's best-selling brand.

What is the F*cking relation? It just seems like hidden Toy trumpet. GM is good but hey we beat their ass.

[Camino LS6]

The Title: The Conclusion:

What is the F*cking relation? It just seems like hidden Toy trumpet. GM is good but hey we beat their ass.

Not to mention that there is some question as to who outsold who in this market.

[enzl]

More ass covering by your esteemed leader...and you guys buy it hook, line and sinker.

I'm not sure what's sadder-the endless defensiveness of the group here or the fact that thousands of people depend upon RW's meek leadership.

One question: If this wasn't news, why would Rick mention it at all in one of the blogs?...unless it's a set-up to cover the inevitable backtracking when the program pushes into '11 for an '12 intro or later.

While you may see my constant harping as disloyalty, I look at it as the ultimate form of passion for GM and cars in general. I don't agree with the leadership at GM, I don't think they're doing a good job & I believe that a new direction is necessary--clearly, some of you don't. Since I have more at stake than 95% of you, your constant sniping at my 'motivation' just adds fuel to my fire.

You've chased almost every other voice of dissent away from this board--that's not winning an argument, that's just bullying people. There's a huge difference. Glad to see there's still a place for narrow-minded stubborness in our PC world.

[Z-06]

More ass covering by your esteemed leader...and you guys buy it hook, line and sinker.

I'm not sure what's sadder-the endless defensiveness of the group here or the fact that thousands of people depend upon RW's meek leadership.

One question: If this wasn't news, why would Rick mention it at all in one of the blogs?...unless it's a set-up to cover the inevitable backtracking when the program pushes into '11 for an '12 intro or later.

While you may see my constant harping as disloyalty, I look at it as the ultimate form of passion for GM and cars in general. I don't agree with the leadership at GM, I don't think they're doing a good job & I believe that a new direction is necessary--clearly, some of you don't. Since I have more at stake than 95% of you, your constant sniping at my 'motivation' just adds fuel to my fire.

You've chased almost every other voice of dissent away from this board--that's not winning an argument, that's just bullying people. There's a huge difference. Glad to see there's still a place for narrow-minded stubborness in our PC world.

Do you want your dealership and your wages to survive till 2015 or 2050? Because if the Volt is NOT done right, it may certainly be an end to GM's destiny and its impact on the perceptions of the people.

If not Rick, you wanted Carlos the Ghosn with Jerry York and Kirk Kierokirorkirkorean? Because the way I look at it the silver boy Ghosn is not doing good either. The entire auto industry is in doldrums. If GM was sitting on cash like Toyota, may be time would not have been an issue. But even if there are greenbacks available, they will not prevent any technical difficulties which may have arosed around testing. The fact of the matter is it is not 2011 to bitch about GM not delivering the promise. At this moment most of us are playing couch football to really get into the matter of what is happening inside GM and battery providers' premises regarding the Volt.

[Camino LS6]

No promises were made and none were broken,

this is no big deal.

I just don't see what your gripe is about, Enzl.

[enzl]

Do you want your dealership and your wages to survive till 2015 or 2050? Because if the Volt is NOT done right, it may certainly be an end to GM's destiny and its impact on the perceptions of the people.

If not Rick, you wanted Carlos the Ghosn with Jerry York and Kirk Kierokirorkirkorean? Because the way I look at it the silver boy Ghosn is not doing good either. The entire auto industry is in doldrums. If GM was sitting on cash like Toyota, may be time would not have been an issue. But even if there are greenbacks available, they will not prevent any technical difficulties which may have arosed around testing. The fact of the matter is it is not 2011 to bitch about GM not delivering the promise. At this moment most of us are playing couch football to really get into the matter of what is happening inside GM and battery providers' premises regarding the Volt.

This is not just about the Volt, my friend. Just the fact that you're arguing that somehow that one vehicle will have an impact on whether we're here in 2015 or 2050 shows how you don't understand the gravity of the situation.

The current management has been in place for years---they have overseen the most disastrous loss of marketshare (proportionately) in the domestic auto business' history.

They've shown little respect for their stockholders, little vision, poor forcasting, terrible distribution and, furthermore, have leveraged GM to the point where they CANNOT develop the vehicles necessary to move forward. (for just the latest, see Caddy HF V8 cancellation)

How can you defend that? I don't want Ghosn or York...but there were, apparently, plenty of good auto people out for the taking: Toyota just lost 3 of them, Bernhart has been underemployed for months; & Porsche, BMW and a ton of other carmakers have human beings that MIGHT want to work for the Biggest CAR Company on the Planet...

This administration has been taken to the cleaners by Subaru & Fiat, poured Billions with nothing to show for Saab, depended on trucks knowing that China's economy (& energy needs) was growing at double digit rates---C'mon, man.

You can hate on me---but they've done ALL the damage themselves. Don't worry about hurting Rick's feelings---he made sure to make his Golden Parachute bankruptcy-proof---how about that for confidence in your leadership ability?

[Camino LS6]

OK.

The gripe is about Wagoner, not the Volt.

Why don't you start a thread about that?

[enzl]

No promises were made and none were broken,

this is no big deal.

I just don't see what your gripe is about, Enzl.

One--you're using revisionist history--the Volt has been promised, now it's intro is being hedged...nobody wants to admit it might be delayed unless there's reason to--that's just basic PR

Second-They've been lying about plenty---that record-breaking write-off/loss a few weeks ago, their creative use of fleeting &, quite frankly, who knows what else?

That doesn't bother you--fine--it bothers me.

[enzl]

OK.

The gripe is about Wagoner, not the Volt.

Why don't you start a thread about that?

I did.

I started this thread. I was attacked. So I gave my reasons for doubting the Rickster & his cronies---now that I've explained myself, I need to start a new thread?

Maybe you should, here's a working title: GM's Lackeys and Apologists.

[Camino LS6]

One--you're using revisionist history--the Volt has been promised, now it's intro is being hedged...nobody wants to admit it might be delayed unless there's reason to--that's just basic PR

Second-They've been lying about plenty---that record-breaking write-off/loss a few weeks ago, their creative use of fleeting &, quite frankly, who knows what else?

That doesn't bother you--fine--it bothers me.

You are mistaken about the Volt. No promise was ever made.

[enzl]

You are mistaken about the Volt. No promise was ever made.

Really? That's absolutely not the impression Lutz left at the auto show last year. Nor on his blogs.

More important question:

Then why is GM spending millions to advertise the Volt?

I would venture to say that the implication is that it is a short time away? That is certainly what the consumer viewing is led to believe....

Actually, it may not ever work--the battery tech isn't here as of today---and the Prius & co. have been around for about 10 years---is that GM's response time?

[CARBIZ]

The thing I like about Enzl is that he makes me look like the eternal optimist. Keep up the good work! I read all the supposedly reputable journals and it seems like whenever GM starts getting some good press, the same old antogonists have to roll out the same old pessimistic arguments.

Who was it that said, whether you believe you can or whether you believe you can't, you will be right? We have aired GM's failings to death on this site (and Gawd knows other sites love to do it too!), but I am not about to get all riled up about one piece in the media. As I have said before, the fact that Toyota has cranked up its PR machine against the Volt is good enough for me.

[CARBIZ]

Wasn't Lutz working for Excide when Wagoner grabbed him?

Didn't GM invest heavily in Ballard Systems in Canada?

Didn't they have a couple hundred all electric vehicles on the road for a few years that they scrapped?

When did you have the Bat phone installed from the RenCen anyway, Enzl?

[Camino LS6]

Really? That's absolutely not the impression Lutz left at the auto show last year. Nor on his blogs.

More important question:

Then why is GM spending millions to advertise the Volt?

I would venture to say that the implication is that it is a short time away? That is certainly what the consumer viewing is led to believe....

Actually, it may not ever work--the battery tech isn't here as of today---and the Prius & co. have been around for about 10 years---is that GM's response time?

OK, I'll play.

1) impression isn't fact

2) We don't know if the Volt will happen by the end of 2010, or not.

3) The mere fact that GM is building the Volt is good PR.

4) The Volt will come to market. How well and when are, and have always been, open questions.

[enzl]

Wasn't Lutz working for Excide when Wagoner grabbed him?

Didn't GM invest heavily in Ballard Systems in Canada?

Didn't they have a couple hundred all electric vehicles on the road for a few years that they scrapped?

When did you have the Bat phone installed from the RenCen anyway, Enzl?

1 great decision,

1 maybe,

1 bad decision,

1 good idea (I'll call Bob on Monday)

GM's poor decisions far outnumber the good. All I want is some accountability.

Only question to ask: If your job performance matched GM's for the last 7+ years, would you still have a job?

[Drew Dowdell]

You've chased almost every other voice of dissent away from this board--that's not winning an argument, that's just bullying people. There's a huge difference. Glad to see there's still a place for narrow-minded stubborness in our PC world.

Toyoguy left to save face given the recent issues over in Toyoland

SMK just gets his numbers completely wrong for cars that exist while pulling numbers out of his ass for cars that don't.... and he's still here.

Buickman... well, he wanted to overthrow Rick just so he could sell more LeSabres and Rendevous...... we don't have a sanity test for the board, but perhaps it's an idea who's time has come.

Josh, you know that tale.

[Z-06]

This is not just about the Volt, my friend. Just the fact that you're arguing that somehow that one vehicle will have an impact on whether we're here in 2015 or 2050 shows how you don't understand the gravity of the situation.

The current management has been in place for years---they have overseen the most disastrous loss of marketshare (proportionately) in the domestic auto business' history.

They've shown little respect for their stockholders, little vision, poor forcasting, terrible distribution and, furthermore, have leveraged GM to the point where they CANNOT develop the vehicles necessary to move forward. (for just the latest, see Caddy HF V8 cancellation)

How can you defend that? I don't want Ghosn or York...but there were, apparently, plenty of good auto people out for the taking: Toyota just lost 3 of them, Bernhart has been underemployed for months; & Porsche, BMW and a ton of other carmakers have human beings that MIGHT want to work for the Biggest CAR Company on the Planet...

This administration has been taken to the cleaners by Subaru & Fiat, poured Billions with nothing to show for Saab, depended on trucks knowing that China's economy (& energy needs) was growing at double digit rates---C'mon, man.

You can hate on me---but they've done ALL the damage themselves. Don't worry about hurting Rick's feelings---he made sure to make his Golden Parachute bankruptcy-proof---how about that for confidence in your leadership ability?

First of I do not hate you nor hate anybody. You are trying to show a different perspective of looking at potential problems GM was, is and will have. I have never believed in golden parachutes, as for one it puts complacence in the leader which is the worst thing to have. It is like Genghis Khan going on a battle and even if he loses he can keep his kingdom, what an irony.

GM has had problems since before Rick. Just because a landslide takes place at a date does not mean it was a near problem that caused it. GM's problems started in the 70's. It may or may not have coincidentally reached the apogee during Rick's tenure. That said, the Fiat fiasco started before he took over in 2003. If you have to blame, I honestly think you should lay the blame on the middle management of GM, because they still do control indirectly the GM screws. It is the middlemen that is killing GM not the big ones apart from their golden parachutes. Another thing which pisses me is the fact that the top execs seem to not have balls against these middlemens in skirmishes. Like the clout of Chevy dealers about Traverse, or some bin counters that still exist.

When I referred to Volt, I was refering to the E-Flex system in general, which will see proliferation in other cars as well. Volt is just going to be the tip of the iceberg if the future holds true. Battery is the most significant part here. And if it fails it is really red flag for GM. GM is concentrating on HCCI and has some development for Hydrogen fuel. I am disappointed that they are slacking on the hydrogen research but at least they are pursuing it.

[Camino LS6]

Not trying to attack here, but you've gone off on quite a few tangents that have nothing to do with the Volt.

Please feel free to start other threads about each of them if you wish.

[Drew Dowdell]

Really? That's absolutely not the impression Lutz left at the auto show last year. Nor on his blogs.

More important question:

Then why is GM spending millions to advertise the Volt?

Halo for it's other cars. Works for Toyota. And it's actually a brilliant move on GMs part. Advertise a halo car, get the benefits from that halo car by selling other cars, without even producing the halo car yet.

Actually, it may not ever work--the battery tech isn't here as of today---and the Prius & co. have been around for about 10 years---is that GM's response time?

GM worked from the other end down producing Hybrid busses that actually save more fuel per passenger than priuses do. GM had the EV-1 out for testing the same year the original test Prius was released only in Japan.

[Camino LS6]

Just one other aside.

Enzl you might be surprised at the things I think are ,have been, and will be, wrong at GM.

[PurdueGuy]

While the battery tech is important, I'm not under the impression that it's a situation where the car can't exist without some non-existant battery tech. They could use current battery tech and make the Volt, it may just have a bit smaller all-electric range. If some things don't work out and they build a Volt with a 30 mile all electric range, is there any reason to think it won't still be an excellent vehicle? Granted, a lot of people will point at the 40 mile development goal and cry foul, but the actual product should still be really, really good. And there's nothing to say that the battery tech won't improve for gen2 later on.

Still, if a 6 month delay is the difference between 30 mile electric range and 40 mile, they should wait the 6 months, IMO. Better to be late and good than early and under-deliver.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I'll say it again:

Remember, GM didn't exactly state if the 2010 target meant the 2010 model year or 2010 calendar year. :AH-HA_wink:

See what I'm saying?

[FloydHendershot]

Really? That's absolutely not the impression Lutz left at the auto show last year. Nor on his blogs.

More important question:

Then why is GM spending millions to advertise the Volt?

I would venture to say that the implication is that it is a short time away? That is certainly what the consumer viewing is led to believe....

Actually, it may not ever work--the battery tech isn't here as of today---and the Prius & co. have been around for about 10 years---is that GM's response time?

You're missing the bigger picture.

[FloydHendershot]

If this was prius tech it wouldn't be a big deal. This has the potential to be something else. What alternatives have Toyota or anyone else introduced since? Maybe Ethanol or hydrogen?

Who leads in those departments?

What else matter when running a global corporation? Is this something anyone can pick up from nowhere?

That's a lot of questions and you're full of $h! it you tell me you have all the answers. :AH-HA_wink:

[enzl]

FH-

I'm afraid that you are missing the bigger pic....

GM had seen the future...and it looked like Toyota's hybrid version---they've already spent billions developing the Two-Mode system shared with BMW & DCX....so they've already gone where Toyota has--and then installed it first on some of the least Green vehicles (which they do not plan on building in great quantities for the near future.)

Now, they have a better idea--the Volt---so its back to the drawing board, only this time, the project has been given a timeline (of sorts) & is dependent upon battery tech that does NOT exist! (yet).

So...in addition to the Two-Mode adaptations (which costs big $) that are being rolled out, you're developing an expensive, unrelated system that may or may not work---while advertising it's existence as if the tech is a done deal and Mr. & Mrs. America will be able to buy one soon.

All of this doesn't occur in a vacuum---it's happening at a time where GM is hemorrhaging money and cannot afford a misstep. The misallocation of resources previously now drives GM forward with a Hail Mary gameplan...if Volt doesn't work, you've sacrificed Billions of $, small car development, MCE's on models that desperately need them and a host of cancelled Zetas that might have been the MSRP sales that replace the sinking large truck market.

I disagree with the Hail Mary strategy. To answer your question as to what others have been doing while GM's been fiddling, the answer can be found in Honda & BMW's hydrogen vehicles that are fully production ready, the advancements in emissions in the EU for clean diesel (you know, the original gas saving alternate tech)--and GM would have had a full range of super-modern diesels, but they couldn't get out of the Fiat deal fast enough due to a prenegotiated disaster. Let's not forget that light weight materials are also part of the answer--but GM has left Aluminum unibody development to others like Audi or Ford (Jag) who have complete vehicles in this metal. or BMW, which has figured out how to use AL as part of their chassis.

In other words, while GM MAY have Volt, others will have Alt Fuels (& not the E85 boondoggle), advanced, clean diesels sold here in passenger cars (ever tried to buy a used VW diesel?), modern chassis further developed and lighter mass produced cars...

If you believe the above is BS, I can live with your opinion of my ideas....

Edited January 5, 2008 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

FH-

I'm afraid that you are missing the bigger pic....

GM had seen the future...and it looked like Toyota's hybrid version---they've already spent billions developing the Two-Mode system shared with BMW & DCX....so they've already gone where Toyota has--and then installed it first on some of the least Green vehicles (which they do not plan on building in great quantities for the near future.)

Now, they have a better idea--the Volt---so its back to the drawing board, only this time, the project has been given a timeline (of sorts) & is dependent upon battery tech that does NOT exist! (yet).

So...in addition to the Two-Mode adaptations (which costs big $) that are being rolled out, you're developing an expensive, unrelated system that may or may not work---while advertising it's existence as if the tech is a done deal and Mr. & Mrs. America will be able to buy one soon.

All of this doesn't occur in a vacuum---it's happening at a time where GM is hemorrhaging money and cannot afford a misstep. The misallocation of resources previously now drives GM forward with a Hail Mary gameplan...if Volt doesn't work, you've sacrificed Billions of $, small car development, MCE's on models that desperately need them and a host of cancelled Zetas that might have been the MSRP sales that replace the sinking large truck market.

I disagree with the Hail Mary strategy. To answer your question as to what others have been doing while GM's been fiddling, the answer can be found in Honda & BMW's hydrogen vehicles that are fully production ready, the advancements in emissions in the EU for clean diesel (you know, the original gas saving alternate tech)--and GM would have had a full range of super-modern diesels, but they couldn't get out of the Fiat deal fast enough due to a prenegotiated disaster. Let's not forget that light weight materials are also part of the answer--but GM has left Aluminum unibody development to others like Audi or Ford (Jag) who have complete vehicles in this metal. or BMW, which has figured out how to use AL as part of their chassis.

In other words, while GM MAY have Volt, others will have Alt Fuels (& not the E85 boondoggle), advanced, clean diesels sold here in passenger cars (ever tried to buy a used VW diesel?), modern chassis further developed and lighter mass produced cars...

If you believe the above is BS, I can live with your opinion of my ideas....

GM installed the two-mode on the vehicles that would produce the greatest benefit. The two mode apparently will work for front and rear wheel drive vehicles, so those will be along soon... and still before Toyota has any two mode vehicles at all.

[enzl]

GM installed the two-mode on the vehicles that would produce the greatest benefit. The two mode apparently will work for front and rear wheel drive vehicles, so those will be along soon... and still before Toyota has any two mode vehicles at all.

Except, the Volt is being separately developed to succeed 2-mode--and I don't see how the 2-mode is a great advance over Toyota's current system to begin with...

So, GM is basically reinventing a system it hasn't even rolled out yet---brilliant.

[Drew Dowdell]

Except, the Volt is being separately developed to succeed 2-mode--and I don't see how the 2-mode is a great advance over Toyota's current system to begin with...

2-mode is simpler, engine agnostic, platform agnostic, fits in the space of a normal transmission, allows greater speeds in electric only mode <40 instead of 25>, and allows a 5,000lb SUV to get 22mpg highway..... and you don't see how it's better than toyota's?!

[CARBIZ]

All any of this is proving is something that we've known all along anyway: Toyota's PR machine (backed up, BTW, by MITI and the full weight of the Japanese government - something Detroit does not enjoy in our self-hating culture) is superior to GM's. GM did take the high road with hybrid bus technology and whether successful or not, the Fiat (hindsight) fiasco was an attempt at a short cut to small diesels. All the while, Toyota's PR machine cranked out 'hybrid' vehicles whose long-term success (read: landfills full of batteries) has yet to be determined.

So GM has had to roll out hybrids to stem a PR war that they were (are?) clearly losing. So what. Their investment in Ballard and their direction with the Volt are indications that the game for the 21st Century has yet to be written. Nobody, not even your blessed Toyota knows where this is headed. The only thing that Toyota is good at is brainwashing the muelling masses that they are the Second Coming.

What mode of transportation we will be driving in 2020 is anyones guess at this point. I am hoping and willing to commit my future with GM. f@#k Toyota, I say, and anyone who throws in with them.

[PurdueGuy]

FH-

I'm afraid that you are missing the bigger pic....

GM had seen the future...and it looked like Toyota's hybrid version---they've already spent billions developing the Two-Mode system shared with BMW & DCX....so they've already gone where Toyota has--and then installed it first on some of the least Green vehicles (which they do not plan on building in great quantities for the near future.)

Now, they have a better idea--the Volt---so its back to the drawing board, only this time, the project has been given a timeline (of sorts) & is dependent upon battery tech that does NOT exist! (yet).

So...in addition to the Two-Mode adaptations (which costs big $) that are being rolled out, you're developing an expensive, unrelated system that may or may not work---while advertising it's existence as if the tech is a done deal and Mr. & Mrs. America will be able to buy one soon.

All of this doesn't occur in a vacuum---it's happening at a time where GM is hemorrhaging money and cannot afford a misstep. The misallocation of resources previously now drives GM forward with a Hail Mary gameplan...if Volt doesn't work, you've sacrificed Billions of $, small car development, MCE's on models that desperately need them and a host of cancelled Zetas that might have been the MSRP sales that replace the sinking large truck market.

I disagree with the Hail Mary strategy. To answer your question as to what others have been doing while GM's been fiddling, the answer can be found in Honda & BMW's hydrogen vehicles that are fully production ready, the advancements in emissions in the EU for clean diesel (you know, the original gas saving alternate tech)--and GM would have had a full range of super-modern diesels, but they couldn't get out of the Fiat deal fast enough due to a prenegotiated disaster. Let's not forget that light weight materials are also part of the answer--but GM has left Aluminum unibody development to others like Audi or Ford (Jag) who have complete vehicles in this metal. or BMW, which has figured out how to use AL as part of their chassis.

In other words, while GM MAY have Volt, others will have Alt Fuels (& not the E85 boondoggle), advanced, clean diesels sold here in passenger cars (ever tried to buy a used VW diesel?), modern chassis further developed and lighter mass produced cars...

If you believe the above is BS, I can live with your opinion of my ideas....

Thanks for ignoring my post and acting like the Volt will either succeed or fail completely. It's battery technology. Batteries exist. They can build a functional Volt TODAY on TODAY'S battery tech, it just might not have the range they hope for. That would be disappointing, but not a complete failure (though I'm sure you might make it out to be). It's not like "dang, if we can just get cold fusion to work, this will be great!" They're freaking batteries, and they already exist.

Since when was the e-flex platform being developed to REPLACE the 2-mode? The way I see it, all 3 hybrid setups are likely to have a place in future products. GM can lean on the mild hybrid setup in cheaper vehicles to up their CAFE across a broader range while not boosting prices as much as would happen if, say, Toyota tried to apply their existing hybrid tech across a broad range. This would up CAFE in budget vehicles. 2-mode makes for a more effective hybrid, but still in a package more people are familiar with, with the engine still connected to the wheels, and less by-wire stuff going on. E-flex is more of a flagship hybrid system to out-prius the prius. While how many Volts will sell is hard to predict (and obviously depends on how well GM meets expectations they've been setting), but I think it's safe to say that a Cobalt-like vehicle will still sell in higher volume, simply for being about half the price for the same size vehicle (even if the Volt will likely have some nifty technology features and more attention to detail to help justify it's price tag.)

I guess your statements come across as "I don't care that the news generally is sounding good, GM is DOOMED!" I think it's safe to say that most people on here realize there are still dumb things being done at GM, and it's good to point them out. What I think is rubbing people the wrong way is that you come across like GM is doing nothing right, everything wrong, and the only solution is to fire half the organization and start from scratch. Surely you realize that that would destroy the business as well, like trying to cut out a tumor with a chainsaw.

[EMan]

I guess your statements come across as "I don't care that the news generally is sounding good, GM is DOOMED!" I think it's safe to say that most people on here realize there are still dumb things being done at GM, and it's good to point them out. What I think is rubbing people the wrong way is that you come across like GM is doing nothing right, everything wrong, and the only solution is to fire half the organization and start from scratch. Surely you realize that that would destroy the business as well, like trying to cut out a tumor with a chainsaw.

Edited January 5, 2008 by EMan

[thegriffon]

Ford invested in Ballard, and recently purchased the fuel-cell business with Daimler. GM has been primarily going it alone, and may be closer to a commercial, volume fuel-cell vehicle (and established infrastructure) than Honda (one FCX leased to a private customer does not a true "production" model make).

Gm does not commit to an on-sale date for the Volt because too many things are beyond their control (not just the battery technology, for which they are hedging with a back-up, less advanced system; but also battery production issues—the recent energy bill may help there.) If anything I think they are trying to blindside the competition by coming out with a production model sooner than their noncommittal to a public schedule makes it sound (i.e. they want people to think it may not be possible).

Edited January 5, 2008 by thegriffon

[gm4life]

With the rebates on the Impala I am suprised how well the Malibu is selling, thats why my brother got an Impala LTZ over a Malibu LTZ.

[enzl]

Thanks for ignoring my post and acting like the Volt will either succeed or fail completely. It's battery technology. Batteries exist. They can build a functional Volt TODAY on TODAY'S battery tech, it just might not have the range they hope for. That would be disappointing, but not a complete failure (though I'm sure you might make it out to be). It's not like "dang, if we can just get cold fusion to work, this will be great!" They're freaking batteries, and they already exist.

Since when was the e-flex platform being developed to REPLACE the 2-mode? The way I see it, all 3 hybrid setups are likely to have a place in future products. GM can lean on the mild hybrid setup in cheaper vehicles to up their CAFE across a broader range while not boosting prices as much as would happen if, say, Toyota tried to apply their existing hybrid tech across a broad range. This would up CAFE in budget vehicles. 2-mode makes for a more effective hybrid, but still in a package more people are familiar with, with the engine still connected to the wheels, and less by-wire stuff going on. E-flex is more of a flagship hybrid system to out-prius the prius. While how many Volts will sell is hard to predict (and obviously depends on how well GM meets expectations they've been setting), but I think it's safe to say that a Cobalt-like vehicle will still sell in higher volume, simply for being about half the price for the same size vehicle (even if the Volt will likely have some nifty technology features and more attention to detail to help justify it's price tag.)

I guess your statements come across as "I don't care that the news generally is sounding good, GM is DOOMED!" I think it's safe to say that most people on here realize there are still dumb things being done at GM, and it's good to point them out. What I think is rubbing people the wrong way is that you come across like GM is doing nothing right, everything wrong, and the only solution is to fire half the organization and start from scratch. Surely you realize that that would destroy the business as well, like trying to cut out a tumor with a chainsaw.

The only difference between my opinion & yours is that I'm yelling 'fire' while you've just smelled the smoke--different takes on the same situation--I might be in the kitchen while you're in the balcony, It doesn't change the fact that the theater is on fire.

I've never said that every GM decision is/was bad, just that the performance of THIS administration has been poor ( & clearly, I've struck a nerve with the examples I've cited) ---and that with the coming challenges, may get to be an even tougher job than it already is. I'm advocating a new direction...I'm sick of people treating GM like its a vastly different enterprise that can't be run by an outsider, so we avoid changing course.

You're entitled to disagree. But if you were sick, you'd want a doctor to tell you the truth, wouldn't you? Too late is not as far around the corner as some here think. If that makes me unpopular or appear harsh, I'm OK with that.

Edited January 5, 2008 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

there are so many bad decisions on the table at GM right now, them padding their development timeline a bit is the least of our worries.

[CARBIZ]

Well, Enzl, if you're right, we should know fairly quickly: both Ford and Chrysler are being run by 'outsiders' and their turnarounds should be well under way before the Volt comes to market. Then we will see whether the smoke was merely a grease fire or the beginnings of a conflagration.

I've seen many good companies run into the ground by outsiders who tried to transplant their ideas into a different culture. It is true that fresh blood can be good, but I thought that is what Wagoner and company did with Lutz. GM's problems go back decades and what has happened in the past few years since Lutz came on board has been fairly significant.

I am sure many of us on this Board feel your frustration, Enzl, Gawd knows I am living it, but constantly carping about every failing of GM's doesn't solve the problem either. Not throwing in with the enemy is certain a big way to help the situation.

As many of you have heard me say before, the company I work for owns a couple Toyota stores and recently 'gave back' its GM franchise (whatever that means!). I have been wooed by Toyota and am resigning my position on Monday. I will not work for Toyota - or anyone who works with Toyota. I would rather do dishes or work for McDonalds.

Many of GM's problems at this juncture stem from the fact that too many dealers threw in with Toyota 30 or 40 years ago, taught Toyota everything it needs to know, and have been feeding Toyota insider information for DECADES. This is one of the issues that must stop. These people are despicable, in my view.

If people had stood up for what they saw happening in 1933, we would not have been dragged into the debacle that was to become WWII. My view is the same today: we are witnessing a cataclysmic collapse of the Western World and we are just all sitting back, tsk tsking, but letting other people pull the weight. We have to stop fighting each other and pull together...or we had all better learn to use chopsticks.

Sigh. This is all too weighty for a Saturday night. I'm going to go out and get drunk.

[enzl]

As many of you have heard me say before, the company I work for owns a couple Toyota stores and recently 'gave back' its GM franchise (whatever that means!). I have been wooed by Toyota and am resigning my position on Monday. I will not work for Toyota - or anyone who works with Toyota. I would rather do dishes or work for McDonalds.

.

That' s putting your money where your mouth is my friend.

We may disagree (often) but that is living by the word, so to speak, and deserves great respect.

Good luck!

Edited January 6, 2008 by enzl

[FloydHendershot]

FH-

I'm afraid that you are missing the bigger pic....

GM had seen the future...and it looked like Toyota's hybrid version---they've already spent billions developing the Two-Mode system shared with BMW & DCX....so they've already gone where Toyota has--and then installed it first on some of the least Green vehicles (which they do not plan on building in great quantities for the near future.)

Now, they have a better idea--the Volt---so its back to the drawing board, only this time, the project has been given a timeline (of sorts) & is dependent upon battery tech that does NOT exist! (yet).

So...in addition to the Two-Mode adaptations (which costs big $) that are being rolled out, you're developing an expensive, unrelated system that may or may not work---while advertising it's existence as if the tech is a done deal and Mr. & Mrs. America will be able to buy one soon.

All of this doesn't occur in a vacuum---it's happening at a time where GM is hemorrhaging money and cannot afford a misstep. The misallocation of resources previously now drives GM forward with a Hail Mary gameplan...if Volt doesn't work, you've sacrificed Billions of $, small car development, MCE's on models that desperately need them and a host of cancelled Zetas that might have been the MSRP sales that replace the sinking large truck market.

I disagree with the Hail Mary strategy. To answer your question as to what others have been doing while GM's been fiddling, the answer can be found in Honda & BMW's hydrogen vehicles that are fully production ready, the advancements in emissions in the EU for clean diesel (you know, the original gas saving alternate tech)--and GM would have had a full range of super-modern diesels, but they couldn't get out of the Fiat deal fast enough due to a prenegotiated disaster. Let's not forget that light weight materials are also part of the answer--but GM has left Aluminum unibody development to others like Audi or Ford (Jag) who have complete vehicles in this metal. or BMW, which has figured out how to use AL as part of their chassis.

In other words, while GM MAY have Volt, others will have Alt Fuels (& not the E85 boondoggle), advanced, clean diesels sold here in passenger cars (ever tried to buy a used VW diesel?), modern chassis further developed and lighter mass produced cars...

If you believe the above is BS, I can live with your opinion of my ideas....

Realistically Toyota hybrids made a dent in the market recently. It is a shame the Ev was canceled but at a time

of 25$ barrel and pump gas at or under 1.00 and almost complete lack of environmental concerns it was a gamble that did not pay off. This year saw the acknowledgment of the word "green" to the vernacular and now a part of the dictionary.

It is too bad the foresight was not there but that can't be changed. Developing and hopefully succeeding to get the Volt concept out in the next 3 to 5 years would be remarkable by any stretch.

Technology like this can turn on a dime. In this instance it has in part due to the new CAFE legislation. But let's not

forget the Hydrogen fuel cells that hedge the Volt bet. It's too bad ethanol gets lousy mpg but perhaps they are exploring that avenue, it may not be a boondoggle.

The fact remains GM is committed to getting this put together and I don't think they are that careless or inept not to put something forth that delivers on their claims.

This is not only about one car company, this potentially has the sway to effect the entire country if not the world.

That is the bigger picture.

Edited January 6, 2008 by FloydHendershot

[enzl]

Realistically Toyota hybrids made a dent in the market recently. It is a shame the Ev was canceled but at a time

of 25$ barrel and pump gas at or under 1.00 and almost complete lack of environmental concerns it was a gamble that did not pay off. This year saw the acknowledgment of the word "green" to the vernacular and now a part of the dictionary.

It is too bad the foresight was not there but that can't be changed. Developing and hopefully succeeding to get the Volt concept out in the next 3 to 5 years would be remarkable by any stretch.

Technology like this can turn on a dime. In this instance it has in part due to the new CAFE legislation. But let's not

forget the Hydrogen fuel cells that hedge the Volt bet. It's too bad ethanol gets lousy mpg but perhaps they are exploring that avenue, it may not be a boondoggle.

The fact remains GM is committed to getting this put together and I don't think they are that careless or inept not to put something forth that delivers on their claims.

This is not only about one car company, this potentially has the sway to effect the entire country if not the world.

That is the bigger picture.

A car company isn't going to change the world...if anything, they'll find a way to substitute a new version of the car for old...and that's about it.

The cold, hard truth is that good old Adam Smith was dead on when it came to economics. Supply & Demand dictates prices. With the 3rd World in a race to catch up to us (along with almost 10X our population), the days of $1.00 gas are finished--we probably face a $5.00/gal. short-term future.

Most importantly, our dependence on our enemies for this resource must change--and that'll take much more than the best Volt GM could imagine. That'll actually take courage/vision on the part of our leadership & perhaps, a little individual sacrifice that Americans are not particularly good at.

[FloydHendershot]

A car company isn't going to change the world...if anything, they'll find a way to substitute a new version of the car for old...and that's about it.

...

Most importantly, our dependence on our enemies for this resource must change--and that'll take much more than the best Volt GM could imagine.

Are you sure about that? This sort of technology sounds like steps in the right direction. Personally I'm not wild about the CAFE per se but that too is part of the grander vision.

We'll all find out soon enough.