End of Northstar, replaced by DI v6

[bepperb]

How is this not on the main page?

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4007

Latest word is that the successor to the GM Northstar V8 engine has been killed, and that the Northstar may be replaced by GM's excellent 3.6L V6. That engine, the direct-injection DOHC 3.6, puts out 302 horsepower, which is uncomfortably close to the 320 horespower that the 4.6L Northstar puts out. The 3.6 also gets two mpg better gas mileage than Northstar V8.

This raises question about the Lambda platforn CUVs (GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave and Saturn Outlook), as a version of the Northstar was slated for those vehicles. The Northstar is scheduled to be built until 2010, but not after that.

Me thinks that the future (higher) corporate gas mileage requirements played a big role in this decision—and that this won't be the last surprise engine killing by some major automaker.

http://news.windingroad.com/etc/cadillac-d...-injection-v-6/

[Camino LS6]

Story has already been posted.

[Robert Hall]

Story has already been posted.

Not this one...the article about the discontinuation of the NS replacement was posted, but not anything about the NS being dropped as this one claims.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

The Northstar is dead.

If they kill the small-block V8 next, may God help my poor enthusiast's heart.

[gm4life]

So no replacement, if they do this I am going too... The XLR would be dead with a V8, what is the new DTS/STS going to have a V6, sorry in that class it is not enough and yes it needs OHC's! This is freaking bad news, what ever f*cker pardon my French came up with this one deserves a slap. This would be a very ignorant move on GM's car not to offer a high feature V8 with VVT and about 5.0L DOHC something or other. Are we sure about this? Or not? My guess is CAFE kiled it... Those tree hugging bastards.

[ocnblu]

Maybe the smallblock Chevy will be GM's V8 of choice, as if it isn't already. It was very telling for Cadillac to put the Chevy engine in the first CTS-V... maybe the Northstar was not stout enough to handle the duty GM knew the CTS-V would need to endure. Maybe all future V8 Cadillacs will be powered by the LS engines... no shame in that... although I do advocate Cadillac having their own V8, the smallblock has certainly earned a place at the head of the class.

[gm4life]

So you don't think we won't get any V8 powered Cadillac's aside of the V-Series? So the DTS replacement will get a V8 of some sort even if it is an OHV? Is so that is a relief... It is stupid still, I about $h! my pants and swore up a storm.

[FloydHendershot]

Maybe the smallblock Chevy will be GM's V8 of choice, as if it isn't already. It was very telling for Cadillac to put the Chevy engine in the first CTS-V... maybe the Northstar was not stout enough to handle the duty GM knew the CTS-V would need to endure. Maybe all future V8 Cadillacs will be powered by the LS engines... no shame in that... although I do advocate Cadillac having their own V8, the smallblock has certainly earned a place at the head of the class.

The Chevy smallblock is an engine of a lifetime. Amazing what they have been able to achieve since inception.

[balthazar]

>>"the Northstar may be replaced by GM's excellent 3.6L V6"<<

One can either read this as the NS is gone & a V-6 will replace all, or another V-8 will.

Considering the phrasing & the source, I'm going to file this one right next to 'the Firebird and Camaro are dead for '74!!' and 'Firebird to go FWD for '82!!' for now.

I don't quite understand how the same tech (and more) applied to the 3.6 cannot be engineered into the NS to likewise improve this excellent engine.

[turbo200]

there is no way in hell GM would kill a V8 DOHC engine far far in development for the vaunted Cadillac brand. I think it's safe to say the Northstar replacement is safe

[FloydHendershot]

>>"the Northstar may be replaced by GM's excellent 3.6L V6"<<

One can either read this as the NS is gone & a V-6 will replace all, or another V-8 will.

Considering the phrasing & the source, I'm going to file this one right next to 'the Firebird and Camaro are dead for '74!!' and 'Firebird to go FWD for '82!!' for now.

I don't quite understand how the same tech (and more) applied to the 3.6 cannot be engineered into the NS to likewise improve this excellent engine.

It's amazing what you find works and doesn't after trial and error. Why does the Z06 use leaf spring suspension and still kick ass even if some put their nose up to it? Sometimes what's old is new again.

[Newbiewar]

how is GM coming along with that 3 valve v8 they were working with? i think it was slated for 09 GMT900's... but i dont know

any clues?

I'm sure GM looks at the LS4, and the Northstar, and wonders why the northstar is being produced... i'm sure the LS4 is cheaper, and if they updated the ls4 with the new ls3's technology instead of the ls1's technology, i'm sure GM can make an even nicer motor for cadillac to pride itsef on.

[Northstar]

As griffon said in the other thread, Cadillac will probably get the DOHC 6.2L.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

As griffon said in the other thread, Cadillac will probably get the DOHC 6.2L.

I hope so.

[Oracle of Delphi]

As griffon said in the other thread, Cadillac will probably get the DOHC 6.2L.

I seriously doubt that. The General will introduce the new dual overhead cam (DOHC) 6.2L V8 in its next-generation C3XX pickup trucks only, is my understanding. Again my undestanding is that GM will switch to higher-output V6 engines for Caddys. Of course I could always be wrong!

[Northstar]

I seriously doubt that. The General will introduce the new dual overhead cam (DOHC) 6.2L V8 in its next-generation C3XX pickup trucks only, is my understanding. Again my undestanding is that GM will switch to higher-output V6 engines for Caddys. Of course I could always be wrong!

How about V-Series or a 6er/7er fighter (assuming they get a non-V-Series V8)?

[aldw]

It's times like this that it would be better for GM to drop kick very last one of those damned POS pushrodders into the ocean and replace them with proper DOHC engines, just to show they can match whatever the competition puts out with similar equipment.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It's times like this that it would be better for GM to drop kick very last one of those damned POS pushrodders into the ocean and replace them with proper DOHC engines, just to show they can match whatever the competition puts out with similar equipment.

How about, NO. POS pushrodders, like the 436hp 6.2L in the Corvette, which is physically smaller than a 4.4 SC Northstar yet almost equals its power, even without a supercharger?

[FloydHendershot]

How about, NO. POS pushrodders, like the 436hp 6.2L in the Corvette, which is physically smaller than a 4.4 SC Northstar yet almost equals its power, even without a supercharger?

But they sound so coarse and unrefined as they pull away from you.

[CaddyXLR-V]

But they sound so coarse and unrefined as they pull away from you.

I've heard nothing but compliments on how my GTO sounds

[aldw]

How about, NO. POS pushrodders, like the 436hp 6.2L in the Corvette, which is physically smaller than a 4.4 SC Northstar yet almost equals its power, even without a supercharger?

And the AMG 6.2L V8 puts out 510 hp and weighs less than the Corvette V8, and is DOHC to boot.

[Newbiewar]

And the AMG 6.2L V8 puts out 510 hp and weighs less than the Corvette V8, and is DOHC to boot.

the AMG SL55 that i've driven in gets about 14 mpg... sure its got some kick... it'll beat a corvette... but its nothing to brag about man...

but the advantage pushrod has over DOHC is that it has less moving parts, and generally operates with more torque at lower rpms,... those extra moving parts, start to weigh a lot at 6,7 even 8 thousand rpms where dohc's actually make their power...

pushrods are cheaper, stronger, and longer lasting then dohc... and i dont want to hear about your brothers girlfriends dad who has some 350k mile 1988 toyota camrola

[aldw]

the AMG SL55 that i've driven in gets about 14 mpg... sure its got some kick... it'll beat a corvette... but its nothing to brag about man...

but the advantage pushrod has over DOHC is that it has less moving parts, and generally operates with more torque at lower rpms,... those extra moving parts, start to weigh a lot at 6,7 even 8 thousand rpms where dohc's actually make their power...

pushrods are cheaper, stronger, and longer lasting then dohc... and i dont want to hear about your brothers girlfriends dad who has some 350k mile 1988 toyota camrola

For the lux buyer, DOHC is worth the premium, of which GM needs to pay attention to.

[Camino LS6]

For the lux buyer, DOHC is worth the premium, of which GM needs to pay attention to.

BS

Car rag driven perception is all DOHC really has going for it.

I'd prefer a pushrod engine any day.

[gm4life]

So when are we getting the DOHC 6.2? Also I don't mind pushrod motors they are more effiecent but the sweet hummm of the Northstar is hard not to love. V8s idle and sound so much different than V6's.

[Drew Dowdell]

For the lux buyer, DOHC is worth the premium, of which GM needs to pay attention to.

BS.

The thing holding back the CTS-V was it's interior and it's tendency to wheel hop <this happens even on my CTS 3.6>, but both have been fixed in the new iteration. The press loved the powertrain setup.

The Chrysler 300C does quite well too.... again it's not the pushrods that hold it back, it's the wonky interior, ergonomics, and the fact that you can buy a $21k 2.7 litre V6 with rubbermaid garbage can lid hubcaps, version.

[regfootball]

leave the pushrods for the chevy's caddy needs OHC

[Robert Hall]

leave the pushrods for the chevy's caddy needs OHC

Agreed..if you are going to play in the big leagues, you have to have the complexity. Audi, M-B, BMW, Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti--DOHC V8s.

Even Lincoln doesn't do pushrods.

Edited January 6, 2008 by moltar

[Newbiewar]

Agreed..if you are going to play in the big leagues, you have to have the complexity. Audi, M-B, BMW, Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti--DOHC V8s.

Even Lincoln doesn't do pushrods.

if GM wanted to, it could really push the envelope with Caddillac, and show that pushrod is worth more...

I didnt hear anyone complaining about the sixteen when it was on the table... that it had a pushrod

Pushrod, is an expensive alternative that upper middle class want, but high class dont care about... its bragging rights...

[dwightlooi]

And the AMG 6.2L V8 puts out 510 hp and weighs less than the Corvette V8, and is DOHC to boot.

Well, we need to separate weigh due to technology and weight due to architecture.

Let's just put some numbers in to this discussion for comparison.

The LS7 (7.0 liter 505 hp OHV V8) weighs 458 lbs fully dressed. The recently replaced 6.0 liter LS2 was 322 lbs undressed (w/o the alternator, accessory drive, A/C compressor, etc). The AMG 6.3 liter DOHC V8 weighs 439 pounds not sure if that is dressed or not.

However, I do not believe that the two engines are equal in terms of fabrication technology and/or the designer's liberty to sacrifice cost for weight. The 7.0 is in fact the "smaller" engine physically thanks to the much smaller heads and not having to carry four camshafts topside. In general, for the same level of construction technology, an OHV engine is smaller and lighter for a given power output. That is its advantage. The disadvantage is that it is lower in specific output, lower attainable rev limits, less willingness to rev and in general inferior in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs/hp-hr or g/kW-hr) compared to a DOHC powerplant of the same output. The OHV engine also lags in refinement -- idle quality and the turbine like whirl factor in general. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective and the application. In a Camaro the primal roar and slightly rough and bubbly idle is probably looked at as a mark of prowess under the hood. In a Lexus, such an engine will probably turn away most of the buyers.

[Newbiewar]

Well, we need to separate weigh due to technology and weight due to architecture.

Let's just put some numbers in to this discussion for comparison.

The LS7 (7.0 liter 505 hp OHV V8) weighs 458 lbs fully dressed. The recently replaced 6.0 liter LS2 was 322 lbs undressed (w/o the alternator, accessory drive, A/C compressor, etc). The AMG 6.3 liter DOHC V8 weighs 439 pounds not sure if that is dressed or not.

However, I do not believe that the two engines are equal in terms of fabrication technology and/or the designer's liberty to sacrifice cost for weight. The 7.0 is in fact the "smaller" engine physically thanks to the much smaller heads and not having to carry four camshafts topside. In general, for the same level of construction technology, an OHV engine is smaller and lighter for a given power output. That is its advantage. The disadvantage is that it is lower in specific output, lower attainable rev limits, less willingness to rev and in general inferior in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs/hp-hr or g/kW-hr) compared to a DOHC powerplant of the same output. The OHV engine also lags in refinement -- idle quality and the turbine like whirl factor in general. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective and the application. In a Camaro the primal roar and slightly rough and bubbly idle is probably looked at as a mark of prowess under the hood. In a Lexus, such an engine will probably turn away most of the buyers.

equally GM has balanced their v8 very nicely... i have driven an ls1 corvette and an ls2 corvette and 2 ls2 GTO's... and GM can control its noise, thundering idle and fuel efficency more so than anything in the corvettes class... the GTO is not so timid, but its not supposed to be

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, we need to separate weigh due to technology and weight due to architecture.

Let's just put some numbers in to this discussion for comparison.

The LS7 (7.0 liter 505 hp OHV V8) weighs 458 lbs fully dressed. The recently replaced 6.0 liter LS2 was 322 lbs undressed (w/o the alternator, accessory drive, A/C compressor, etc). The AMG 6.3 liter DOHC V8 weighs 439 pounds not sure if that is dressed or not.

However, I do not believe that the two engines are equal in terms of fabrication technology and/or the designer's liberty to sacrifice cost for weight. The 7.0 is in fact the "smaller" engine physically thanks to the much smaller heads and not having to carry four camshafts topside. In general, for the same level of construction technology, an OHV engine is smaller and lighter for a given power output. That is its advantage. The disadvantage is that it is lower in specific output, lower attainable rev limits, less willingness to rev and in general inferior in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs/hp-hr or g/kW-hr) compared to a DOHC powerplant of the same output. The OHV engine also lags in refinement -- idle quality and the turbine like whirl factor in general. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective and the application. In a Camaro the primal roar and slightly rough and bubbly idle is probably looked at as a mark of prowess under the hood. In a Lexus, such an engine will probably turn away most of the buyers.

Exactly. I don't want Cadillac to be Lexus. Just like Ferrari buyers take pride in how their engines sound. They are definitely not refined when driving around town. I'm all for advanced technology, but not when it is to make our cars silent. My main concern is that all this technology is taking the emotional aspect out of the cars. I like to hear the spooling of turbos, the whine of superchargers, and the rumble V8s. If you take that away, I might as well just drive an appliance.

Edited January 6, 2008 by CaddyXLR-V

[Z-06]

And the AMG 6.2L V8 puts out 510 hp and weighs less than the Corvette V8, and is DOHC to boot.

Both weigh the same dressed up.

Yeah the AMG engine costs $40,000 vs. the 11,000 for the LS3. LS3 gives better gas mileage (even a light CLK and its "godly" seven speed cannot beat the gas guzzler.)

LS3 is about two inches smaller than the AMG because it does not have to lug the camshafts.

If you want a good critique of pushrods vs. DOHC V8s see piece by Csaba Csere in the car and driver's August (or may be September) magazine. No way did he mention that the pushrod is "inferior". As a matter of fact he dared to say that pushrods will still remain because of their simplicity, versatality, and now the DI giving them added push.

[The O.C.]

However, I do not believe that the two engines are equal in terms of fabrication technology and/or the designer's liberty to sacrifice cost for weight. The 7.0 is in fact the "smaller" engine physically thanks to the much smaller heads and not having to carry four camshafts topside. In general, for the same level of construction technology, an OHV engine is smaller and lighter for a given power output. That is its advantage. The disadvantage is that it is lower in specific output, lower attainable rev limits, less willingness to rev and in general inferior in brake specific fuel consumption (lbs/hp-hr or g/kW-hr) compared to a DOHC powerplant of the same output. The OHV engine also lags in refinement -- idle quality and the turbine like whirl factor in general. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective and the application. In a Camaro the primal roar and slightly rough and bubbly idle is probably looked at as a mark of prowess under the hood. In a Lexus, such an engine will probably turn away most of the buyers.

Expertly said. The two V8s I have the most experience in is the Corvette LS2 in the '06 that I had, and the BMW 4.4 V8.

First of all, let me say both engines, regardless of valvetrain, are excellent engines. That being said there were distinct differences in the driving pleasure of both. As powerful, mannerly, and efficient as the LS2 V8 is, it could no way compare to the refinement, smoothness, and incredible willingness to rev that the BMW V8 showed in a 545i 6-speed that I spent some time in. Ironically, the BMW didn't SEEM to lack low-end torque.....but felt really strong due to it's ability to pull cleanly all the way to the redline. With the LS2, I never really ran it to the redline....ending up short-shifting and driving on the torque.

I guess you could say "different strokes for different folks." However, to me, the DOHC/32-valve V8 (whether in a BMW or a GM car) will always be my favorite. (My how nice a Corvette would be with the STS-v's supercharged 4.4L Northstar....!!!)

[dwightlooi]

Both weigh the same dressed up.

Yeah the AMG engine costs $40,000 vs. the 11,000 for the LS3. LS3 gives better gas mileage (even a light CLK and its "godly" seven speed cannot beat the gas guzzler.)

LS3 is about two inches smaller than the AMG because it does not have to lug the camshafts.

If you want a good critique of pushrods vs. DOHC V8s see piece by Csaba Csere in the car and driver's August (or may be September) magazine. No way did he mention that the pushrod is "inferior". As a matter of fact he dared to say that pushrods will still remain because of their simplicity, versatality, and now the DI giving them added push.

There is NO DI pushrod at this time although there is no reason there can't be. In fact, a concentric cam-in-cam VVT (ala Viper 8.4 V8) and with DI may be the next step in the small block evolution. Other "feasible" technologies to incorporate on a small block includes a camlobe switching system modelled after the Porsche Variocam 2 and a continuously variable pivot system for the rocket arms which will provide continuously variable valve lift. Other non-performance related changes possible is a belt free engine. Basically, you eliminate the accessory belt drive by running the water pump off the camshaft via helical gears or a secondary chain and replacing the alternator with a generator/motor that fits in place of the flywheel. The onlly thing left then is the A/C compressor and you can run that electrically of the battery and alternator motor output. Such an engine will have the side benefit of being able to shutoff at stoplights and give or take about 20hp worth during acceleration and braking using a not too expensive 48v battery. And, or course, there won't be any belt to change and -- with long life fluids -- essentially no service intervals for 10 years or 150,000 miles except for oil changes every 15,000 miles or so.

[Z-06]

There is NO DI pushrod at this time although there is no reason there can't be. In fact, a concentric cam-in-cam VVT (ala Viper 8.4 V8) and with DI may be the next step in the small block evolution. Other "feasible" technologies to incorporate on a small block includes a camlobe switching system modelled after the Porsche Variocam 2 and a continuously variable pivot system for the rocket arms which will provide continuously variable valve lift. Other non-performance related changes possible is a belt free engine. Basically, you eliminate the accessory belt drive by running the water pump off the camshaft via helical gears or a secondary chain and replacing the alternator with a generator/motor that fits in place of the flywheel. The onlly thing left then is the A/C compressor and you can run that electrically of the battery and alternator motor output. Such an engine will have the side benefit of being able to shutoff at stoplights and give or take about 20hp worth during acceleration and braking using a not too expensive 48v battery. And, or course, there won't be any belt to change and -- with long life fluids -- essentially no service intervals for 10 years or 150,000 miles except for oil changes every 15,000 miles or so.

You are right. What I meant was DI pushrod is under development and we cannot see a reason why cannot it be in place few years down the road, may be as soon as the end of the decade.

[regfootball]

Expertly said. The two V8s I have the most experience in is the Corvette LS2 in the '06 that I had, and the BMW 4.4 V8.

First of all, let me say both engines, regardless of valvetrain, are excellent engines. That being said there were distinct differences in the driving pleasure of both. As powerful, mannerly, and efficient as the LS2 V8 is, it could no way compare to the refinement, smoothness, and incredible willingness to rev that the BMW V8 showed in a 545i 6-speed that I spent some time in. Ironically, the BMW didn't SEEM to lack low-end torque.....but felt really strong due to it's ability to pull cleanly all the way to the redline. With the LS2, I never really ran it to the redline....ending up short-shifting and driving on the torque.

I guess you could say "different strokes for different folks." However, to me, the DOHC/32-valve V8 (whether in a BMW or a GM car) will always be my favorite. (My how nice a Corvette would be with the STS-v's supercharged 4.4L Northstar....!!!)

i kind of wish GM would get over its pushrod fetish in the corvette. a top tier OHC motor in the corvette would be a nice option. for no other reason than the issues you state above.

simply put, luxury car buyers are accustomed to the VHS tapes (OHC) and trying to push the betamax on them (pushrod) will do nothing but make them curl their lip and move on. Even if some say betamax had a 'better picture', the form factor and marketing solution of VHS was what people came to expect.

most of the people i ever read on MB's bleating the virtues of the pushrod engine are not always the types with Lexus level dollars out buying or leasing new cars every 2-3 years.

It's also time for GM to get with the program on all wheel drive, especially in cars like some corvettes and cars like the CTSv. I don't care how fast Carl Lewis was as a sprinter, if he only has one leg working and is dragging his other foot, he's not really maximizing his speed.

GM is only married to pushrods because of beancounter cheapness. Less parts=cheaper but if you can't get the desired power and running characteristics for the market segment its time to move on. Until GM can demonstrate for example that a v6 pushrod they build is a better power and NVH solution then everything else, then they ought to dump all pushrod v6's.

GM is so slow. They finally dumped pushrod 4's barely yesterday....only 1/2way through dumping the v6 pushrods.....and you know someday they will need to get with the program on most of their v8s.

if the electric engine doesn't kill IC engines soon, the ultimate solution will be solenoid or valveless, computer electronic type setup that will not have any cams, etc. they really need to get on that.

Edited January 7, 2008 by regfootball

[Newbiewar]

i kind of wish GM would get over its pushrod fetish in the corvette. a top tier OHC motor in the corvette would be a nice option. for no other reason than the issues you state above.

simply put, luxury car buyers are accustomed to the VHS tapes (OHC) and trying to push the betamax on them (pushrod) will do nothing but make them curl their lip and move on. Even if some say betamax had a 'better picture', the form factor and marketing solution of VHS was what people came to expect.

most of the people i ever read on MB's bleating the virtues of the pushrod engine are not always the types with Lexus level dollars out buying or leasing new cars every 2-3 years.

It's also time for GM to get with the program on all wheel drive, especially in cars like some corvettes and cars like the CTSv. I don't care how fast Carl Lewis was as a sprinter, if he only has one leg working and is dragging his other foot, he's not really maximizing his speed.

GM is only married to pushrods because of beancounter cheapness. Less parts=cheaper but if you can't get the desired power and running characteristics for the market segment its time to move on. Until GM can demonstrate for example that a v6 pushrod they build is a better power and NVH solution, then they ought to dump all pushrod v6's.

i dont think DOHC has any value in large motors other then seeing high rpms without a bad idle...

in smaller motors you can crank out more power per liter using gearing and higher rpms...

but i thing DOHC isnt as necessary as you say...

the LT5 had 4 cams per bank no? a very expensive engine for the power output... more cams dont always equate to more power or more fuel ecconomy, its another moving part and another drag on the actual efficincy that occurs in the combusion chamber...

[regfootball]

lt5 was expensive for GM because they had no clue how to build an OHC v8 themselves and they had to pay someone to do it. Everyone else, including Hyundai now, can seem to do it economically. But Gm always seems to not be able to solve problems like that. I am still amazed GM ever came out with the high feature v6 or anything more than a 4 speed automatic. But they will probably leave the hf v6 in production as is for like 30 years, knowing their track record for not evolving their product and improving over time.

Edited January 7, 2008 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

Agreed..if you are going to play in the big leagues, you have to have the complexity. Audi, M-B, BMW, Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti--DOHC V8s.

Even Lincoln doesn't do pushrods.

Lincoln's OHCs generate a pavement shredding 240hp in the Towncar and a least in class 300hp in the Navigator.

The Towncar would actually be better off with a S/C 3800 as it gets the same torque at 500 rpm less.

[thegriffon]

the AMG SL55 that i've driven in gets about 14 mpg... sure its got some kick... it'll beat a corvette... but its nothing to brag about man...

but the advantage pushrod has over DOHC is that it has less moving parts, and generally operates with more torque at lower rpms,... those extra moving parts, start to weigh a lot at 6,7 even 8 thousand rpms where dohc's actually make their power...

pushrods are cheaper, stronger, and longer lasting then dohc... and i dont want to hear about your brothers girlfriends dad who has some 350k mile 1988 toyota camrola

The SL55 is SOHC and 3V per cylinder, real old tech compared to the DOHC 32V, Dual-VVT 6.2 L.

[Robert Hall]

The SL55 is SOHC and 3V per cylinder, real old tech compared to the DOHC 32V, Dual-VVT 6.2 L.

That DOHC 32V, Dual-VVT 6.2 L is mythical at this point, though..nothing in production currently like that from GM.