Northstar replacment canceled

[VenSeattle]

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The article is written by Anita Lienert...

'nuff said.

I think the switch to LSx power is probably a positive move AS LONG AS it does have a DOHC set up or is at least technologically superior to Chevrolet versions.

IMHO, the LSx is already a MUCH better product than the North*. Now, that might not have been the case with this new engine.... But 320hp? C'mon... The LS1 was pulling that 6 or 7 years ago.

Maybe they could even carry over the name if it's still a DOHC set up (Which it looks like it will be, and I certainly hope it is)

Edited January 5, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[aldw]

The fewer parts Caddy shares with any other division, the better it will be.

[Z-06]

The Northstar name is 20 years old. The current North/South configured Northstar was redesigned in 2003 and updated for V service in 2005.

Was it "updated" on an existing 20 year old block or it was thoroughly revised in 2003?

[Z-06]

The fewer parts Caddy shares with any other division, the better it will be.

With current GM economics, it is not entirely possible.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Twin Turbo DI 3.6 with close to 400 hp.

I see a problem with that also. The 2.8L turbo in the Saab 9-3, is rated the same in fuel economy as the STS with the Northstar, despite having 60 less hp, and weighing nearly 800lbs less than the Cadillac.

[balthazar]

> I recall reading that the '05 V-Series/RWD redesign was around 75% brand new.

> nissan VQ also dates as many years back, but for some reason I don't recall reading 'it's high time to dump it' very often... oh yes, because it's had frequent updates. Before the DI 3.6 V-6, did these same people who advocate dumping the NS advocate dumping the preceeding V-6?

Or is this merely a case of reactionary perception: 'oil is high = no new V-8s'?

>>"The article is written by Anita Lienert... 'nuff said."<<

x 1,000,000.

> Same or different block is immaterial to competitiveness/power numbers; block in & of itself has no real role in either HP or MPG. Note that the supposed cancellation was the same type as the NS already is; an all-aluminum DOHC V-8, as opposed to -say- an iron IBC V-8.

Why not simply enact the same re-engineering of the 3.6 to the NS to feature DI & any other available MPG tech ?? The tooling is already paid for, it is 85% of the way to where it needs to be as it is- just keep improving it, regain top-teir status and save big over the clean sheet engine. Done.

[thegriffon]

Size. The new V8 would have been much more compact and able to be used in more applications (such as the Lambdas, Zetas and Epsilon sedans).

[Oracle of Delphi]

Agreed on all points, except the engine. There's no way that an improved Northstar can be better than the UV8 would have been. The UV8 was most likely new from the ground up. With today's technology that wasn't around when the Northstar was made, I would have to think that the UV8 would be better than any Northstar that isn't at least 95% new, which is basically just a new engine anyways.

I could really care less about GM if all of this that sounds like it will happen happens. GME can go suck on Toyota's balls. Note to GME: We don't give a rat's ass about mainstream European cars (see VW). I want to offer an early congratulations to Carl Peter Forster for turning away many people who thought they'd buy GM for life. I also want to thank him for the future demise of a company that was returning to greatness. Now, GM will be nothing more than a combination of Hyundais and VWs. We have no one else to thank but him.

When I go to buy a new car, I have a bad feeling it won't be a GM. I might not even have a GM on my list if the time is too far down the road. All of this makes me wonder if the Corvette is even safe.

What a bunch of idiots that run GME. They may have an idea of how to run a company in Europe, but they obviously have no idea how to run a company in the US or around the globe. If Carl Peter Forster does indeed get the control he wants, it could be a sad day for a lot of us.

*Note that I am not intending to say that those running GME don't know what they're doing in Europe, but I don't think making the American market like the European market (which it appears may be what they're going for) is a good idea.

I would also like to thank you Northstar, you have helped me in more ways than you will ever know. :AH-HA_wink:

[Northstar]

I would also like to thank you Northstar, you have helped me in more ways than you will ever know. :AH-HA_wink:

Do give more of a hint than that. Surely some random internet poster did not give you such power.

BTW, I think I would retract most of my previous statements in the post you quoted, but too late. I was upset about more than just that issue and probably shouldn't have been posting but needed to let out steam...

[Robert Hall]

The Northstar name is 20 years old. The current North/South configured Northstar was redesigned in 2003 and updated for V service in 2005.

Hmmm..the first use of the Northstar was the '93 Allante, around 15 years ago, not 20.

Edited January 5, 2008 by moltar

[The O.C.]

Probably a forward thinking decision with the impending CAFE. The big V-6s make are more efficient at making the big hp numbers, and with turbo and supercharging, its even better!

There's a segment of the market, however, that wants a V8 engine.....be it for ego, or whatever.....to totally abandon that powertrain market would be suicide....even considering impending CAFE regs.....I just don't see GM abandoning it.

Look at BMW for example......their new twin-turbo I6 is a FANTASTIC motor.....20mpg or better AND sub-5.0sec 0-60s in a 3-series.....and comparable mileage and performance in the larger 5-series. HOWEVER, you won't see BMW abandoning it's V8 engine program....for VERY obvious reasons.

[The O.C.]

I didn't know the 3.6 could go up to 4.0. Heck, a 4.0, naturally aspirated with DI would likely be good for around 320hp. There goes the need for the current V8 Northstar.

What would you pick given the choice? A 320hp DI V6....or a 320hp DOHC V8....?

Considering I wouldn't mind the bit of extra expense, if the CTS today offered the alternative of the 320hp Northstar, I'd definitely take that in a HEARTBEAT over the DI V6. I just love the sound and feel of a V8 engine....especially the refined and cultured Northstar.

And don't forget....you aren't exactly saving fuel by staying with the DI V6. Most road tests are pegging fuel economy numbers similar to the Northstar.....(14-18mpg in mixed driving.)

Plus....an up-to-date GM V8 engine would be closer to pushing 400hp I'd guess.....with competitive fuel economy for the segment.

There still is life in the V8....just maybe not in the numbers we saw in the past.

[Drew Dowdell]

BMW just pays the CAFE fine every year because it can afford to.

[The O.C.]

BMW just pays the CAFE fine every year because it can afford to.

Well maybe the General needs to set aside some funds to pay it too.......

It's like a catch-22....

"Let's not invest in segment-leading powertrain development (in V8s at least) because we can't meet CAFE".......

"Uh-oh....we all of a sudden have no competitive product entries (in V8 models at least) and the imports are eating our lunch"

Sound familiar? Didn't bean-counter-ism get us partly into the situation we are faced with today (concerning GM's overall struggle with it's recent history of un-competitive product entries?)

[Drew Dowdell]

BMW is also a premium only manufacturer that can get away with charging 30k for a RWD, 6cylinder, Civic with leatherette.

[The O.C.]

BMW is also a premium only manufacturer that can get away with charging 30k for a RWD, 6cylinder, Civic with leatherette.

Doesn't that state more about how smart and marketplace savvy BMW is......and GM isn't.....?

BMW also doesn't have the benefit of all of GM's revenue from their dominence in the SUV and pickup markets.....

[Drew Dowdell]

Doesn't that state more about how smart and marketplace savvy BMW is......and GM isn't.....?

Are you advocating the idea of GM closing everything but Cadillac and having the cheapest GM vehicle start at 30k?

[The O.C.]

Are you advocating the idea of GM closing everything but Cadillac and having the cheapest GM vehicle start at 30k?

Nope.....but you are seemingly trying to "diss" BMW....and BMW owners.....because they buy a "$30K Civic with leatherette"

What I'm saying is that GM could learn alot from their approach to the marketplace, the consumers, and the industry in general. You can learn these lessons and apply them to any market segment....not just the "$30K and up" premium segments.

But no....GM won't do that....because they know what is best....don't they?

[Drew Dowdell]

Not trying to dis BMW..... if I could sell a Civic for 30k, I would too.

I'm dissing only select BMW owners.... the ones who buy the car if it was a Yugo with a blue and white rondel, free maintenance, and "easy" lease payments of $299 a month with $4,000 down.

[thegriffon]

I would also like to thank you Northstar, you have helped me in more ways than you will ever know. :AH-HA_wink:

Lemme guess: PCS has been put in charge of future Pontiac midsize sedans—he gets to build his dream GP to replace the G6.

[Robert Hall]

Not trying to dis BMW..... if I could sell a Civic for 30k, I would too.

I'm dissing only select BMW owners.... the ones who buy the car if it was a Yugo with a blue and white rondel, free maintenance, and "easy" lease payments of $299 a month with $4,000 down.

I don't get the 'Civic' comparison..the 1-series or 3-series is a hell of alot more car than a generic Civic..

Edited January 5, 2008 by moltar

[gm4life]

This is silly, I hope they are gonna still build it.

[Lamar]

I don't get the 'Civic' comparison..the 1-series or 3-series is a hell of alot more car than a generic Civic..

In amenities and such, yes.

In interior space, only barely.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Size. The new V8 would have been much more compact and able to be used in more applications (such as the Lambdas, Zetas and Epsilon sedans).

Even Ep II?!?!

That makes me very sad....

Just when things become perfect for GM and Detroit, an outside force has to go and screw everything up again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There's a segment of the market, however, that wants a V8 engine.....be it for ego, or whatever.....to totally abandon that powertrain market would be suicide....even considering impending CAFE regs.....I just don't see GM abandoning it.

Look at BMW for example......their new twin-turbo I6 is a FANTASTIC motor.....20mpg or better AND sub-5.0sec 0-60s in a 3-series.....and comparable mileage and performance in the larger 5-series. HOWEVER, you won't see BMW abandoning it's V8 engine program....for VERY obvious reasons.

Spot-on... Somehow I think GM is smart enough to know this and, as usual, we enthusiasts only know half of the story. (At this point)

[frogger]

I don't get the 'Civic' comparison..the 1-series or 3-series is a hell of alot more car than a generic Civic..

Me either. The Camaro will be a Civic competitor as well I guess.

[NOS2006]

you've been sniffin that Ford glue too long. :AH-HA_wink:

Hell yeah I have been. I mean, if we have the technology, why not do it? It's working for VW, and it looks like it'll work for Ford. Get V8-like power with better fuel economy out of a V6 or I4.

[K.C.]

GM better come out with a DOHC V-8 to beat the Germans with, otherwise it will be full of fail and stupid.

Sounds like they don't intend for Cadillac to play in the big leagues beyond the CTS..

F*** GM if that's the case, Toyota becoming numero uno would be a far preferable outcome then.

GM is not the only automaker who will be abandoning V-8s in their high end vehicles. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc will all have to change to meet the same CAFE standards that GM has to meet, so we can expect to see fewer V-8 engines from those automakers in their cars as well. These new standards will not only pertain to General Motors. This will not be the end of the V-8, but it will seriously decrease the production of V-8 powered vehicles. The Northstar is a small V-8, and with power very similar to the new DI V-6, is not needed. GM will have other V-8's that are just as efficient and more powerful in low production V-series cars. I think many of you are failing to see the big picture of the industry as a whole. I haven't lost faith in Cadillac running with the big guns. I think they are being forward thinking and smart by acting now to meet these regulations.

[Robert Hall]

GM is not the only automaker who will be abandoning V-8s in their high end vehicles. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc will all have to change to meet the same CAFE standards that GM has to meet, so we can expect to see fewer V-8 engines from those automakers in their cars as well. These new standards will not only pertain to General Motors. This will not be the end of the V-8, but it will seriously decrease the production of V-8 powered vehicles. The Northstar is a small V-8, and with power very similar to the new DI V-6, is not needed. GM will have other V-8's that are just as efficient and more powerful in low production V-series cars. I think many of you are failing to see the big picture of the industry as a whole. I haven't lost faith in Cadillac running with the big guns. I think they are being forward thinking and smart by acting now to meet these regulations.

I suspect the European luxury makers will start offering more diesels...

[Drew Dowdell]

I suspect the European luxury makers will start offering more diesels...

Cadillac could too. They already have a 2.9 liter in the CTS for Europe. 255hp and 403 ft/lbs torque. That should be sufficient for anything in the car side of Cadillac's stable right now.

[buyacargetacheck]

That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

So would it be safe to say that model year 2010 is the last year for the G-body? Let's see, you have Lucerne and DTS currently being built at Hamtramck. The 3.8L goes out of production at Flint North by the end of summer 2008 replaced by LZ4 and LY7. So, model years 2009-2010 Lucerne will have LZ4, LY7 and/or Northstar. OR, MY2009 Lucerne uses already produced 3.8L and Northstar, and then uses Northstar exclusively in MY2010 as NG LaX ramps up. So, Lucerne is effectively "replaced" by EpII LaX for model year 2010 but there will be one year of overlap for 2010 as EpII production ramps up. Hamtramck starts production of Chevy Zafira in 2009 for 2010 model year as separate G-body production winds down. Zafira ramps up hugely for 2011 model year joined by the Volt in 2013, 2014?

Sound about right?

Edited January 7, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[emh]

Just saw the news...

The reason given for dropping the new V8 is "decline in demand for the V8" --- well, duh... that's because Cadillac has the least powerful V8 among its competitors and has no desirable car with a V8 option. People who want a premium V8 are buying other brands

Two things give me some hope:

1. The fact that GM isn't blaming the demise on CAFE, which seems to imply the decision was something specific to this engine (maybe it wasn't going to be competitive with upcoming engines in the segment)

2. "There are a lot of options to cover that premium V8 segment"

The "lot of options" better be along the lines of:

1. Some other 400+hp DOHC V8

2. Hybrid powertrains competitive with V8

3. V10 or V12

etc. and not tweaked V6es -- while high-powered V6s can cover a lot of the midddle of the luxury turf, the high-end absolutely needs V8 or more.

[dado]

It can also be small displacement ohv Gen V with DI, vvt, 3v and later maybe forced induction ...it could easily hit over 400 hp even without forced induction. Of course this engine shouldn't be shared with pontiac on zeta platform. It should be cadillac exlusive engine.(yes engine block would probably be the same, but not the whole engine).

Edited January 7, 2008 by dado

[VenSeattle]

I thought Jaguar had the least powerful V8 in this class?

New Jag XF (STS competitor)

300hp naturally aspirated

420hp supercharged

[Robert Hall]

I thought Jaguar had the least powerful V8 in this class?

New Jag XF (STS competitor)

300hp naturally aspirated

420hp supercharged

Could be..not sure right off where the M45 or GS430 fall...

[K.C.]

If I remember correctly, the M45 will become the M50 I believe in the next year or so when the 4.5 gets replaced with a 5.0. Not sure of the horsepower, but it must be well above the 330 hp the M37 will have. The M45 has 325 hp and the GS430 has been replaced with the GS460 and I think it has 360 hp if I remember right.

[Carguy]

Size. The new V8 would have been much more compact and able to be used in more applications (such as the Lambdas, Zetas and Epsilon sedans).

A DOHC 4VPC 90 degree V8 can only be so small on the outside N* based or UV8 based. But a SB OHV 2VPC 90 degree V8 will be smaller alwase on the outside with the ability of being dramaticly LARGER in displacement!----SIZE??----Meaning EXTERIOR DEMENSIONS OHV WINS!!

[The O.C.]

GM is not the only automaker who will be abandoning V-8s in their high end vehicles. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc will all have to change to meet the same CAFE standards that GM has to meet, so we can expect to see fewer V-8 engines from those automakers in their cars as well. These new standards will not only pertain to General Motors. This will not be the end of the V-8, but it will seriously decrease the production of V-8 powered vehicles. The Northstar is a small V-8, and with power very similar to the new DI V-6, is not needed. GM will have other V-8's that are just as efficient and more powerful in low production V-series cars. I think many of you are failing to see the big picture of the industry as a whole. I haven't lost faith in Cadillac running with the big guns. I think they are being forward thinking and smart by acting now to meet these regulations.

Nope....they WON'T abandon their V8 engines.

As Oldsmoboi (most likely correctly) stated, they will just pay the CAFE fines. (Of course some of those fines or all of them will be passed down to the consumer.) Those people that can afford a V8-powered BMW or Mercedes will most likely not be that affected by an increase in price to compensate for stricter CAFE standards.

[aldw]

There had been rumours of a SB DOHC setup, but not much info on that.

[pow]

I thought Jaguar had the least powerful V8 in this class?

New Jag XF (STS competitor)

300hp naturally aspirated

420hp supercharged

With Jag's pricing strategy in the US, the XF 4.2 300-hp goes up against the 300-hp 535i, and the supercharged 4.2 420-hp goes up against the 380hp 550i. There will be an even more powerful supercharged "R" V8 to go against the M5.

But, yeah, they do have the weakest V8.

[pow]

A 350-to-400-hp-or-so turbocharged 3.6 DI sounds plausible and tempting... the 2.8 version of the HF V-6 is already turbocharged in the 9-3 and Vectra.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

DeLorenzo says this replacement was a top knotch powerplant....

Sad that it has been nixed. The way things look now, I give Cadillac 10 years before it's fighting the very same &#036;h&#33; it fought in the 90s. (Knockin' on deaths door)

[regfootball]

A DOHC 4VPC 90 degree V8 can only be so small on the outside N* based or UV8 based. But a SB OHV 2VPC 90 degree V8 will be smaller alwase on the outside with the ability of being dramaticly LARGER in displacement!----SIZE??----Meaning EXTERIOR DEMENSIONS OHV WINS!!

it always comes down to engineering. with larger displacement comes larger pistons and mass of moving components too. one of the reasons dohc as touted a long time ago was you could spin the sucker higher because the rotational mass was less.

GM never demostrated that they could make a pushrod v6 have the more refined characteristics of the OHC counterparts.

with v8's they have been able to participate better. but really regardless of drivetrain the real thing to focus on is whether GM continually updates its v8 offerings to be current in power, fuel economy, and NVH and packaging. Where GM has fallen off the wagon for most of its mainstream models is not focusing on continuous improvement.

so if they keep the northstar and not develop a replacement, the question is will it get any attention?

[Camino LS6]

GenV v8s are the likely answer, seems they will be built in both OHV and DOHC form.

Caddy won't lose the V8.

EDIT: I'm willing to bet that this GM being unwilling to shoulder the expense of an exclusive line of engines for Cadillac that would be largely redundant. I would expect Caddy to get corporate engines in a higher state of tune than more pedestrian models. GM has always built amazing powerplants and building the UV8 would likely have been a waste of money. With other DOHC V8s in the pipeline, why bother.

[Z-06]

Camino Well said. The Ultra would have found home in not more than 25-30k cars annually. Unless Caddy would have decided to put in the 'slade or GM decided to put them in Buicks.

There is no point in investing money in just one powerplant which would have been against GM's new philosophy of making everything at core universal and then subtly varying in the brands.

[makfu]

DeLorenzo says this replacement was a top knotch powerplant....

Sad that it has been nixed. The way things look now, I give Cadillac 10 years before it's fighting the very same &#036;h&#33; it fought in the 90s. (Knockin' on deaths door)

Sorry, but all this is just so much drama. First, the motor was cancelled primarily because it simply does not make sense in this era for GM to maintain two different V8 architectures. Second, I like DeLerenzo, but he hasn’t seen or driven a vehicle with this motor so he has no idea if it was really top-notch or not. Three, I am an actual Cadillac customer who is a former BMW brand owner. I AM their desired demographic moving forward – so let’s be clear on what ACTUALLY matters:

1. Does the car have the RWD chassis sophistication and ride-handling setup that I am looking for?

2. Is the car interesting in its styling and does it offer solid fit & finish and materials?

3. Does it go fast?

4. Does it meet my NVH expectations?

How GM actually delivers the above doesn’t matter one damn bit. People who buy a car based solely on engine architecture are likely NEVER going to give Cadillac a serious look, so it doesn’t matter. For the rest of us who take our cars very seriously, whether Cadillac employs a DOHC V8, a twin-turbo DI 3.6 or a super-charged OHV V8, doesn’t matter. What does matter is that they meet items 1 through 4. Period.

A great example is the Escalade – the OHV V8 in the ‘slade is a fantastic engine in every respect – from NVH to pure grunt. That it’s an OHV motor doesn’t matter one bit, even though ALL its contemporary competition are using supposedly more modern OHC engine architectures. Another example is the new CTS-V; 550BHP and an earth shattering 550ft/lbs of torque from a supercharged small block OHV V8 – who needs a DOHC motor?!

In this day and age, DOHC V8’s have really become engine marchitectures; they may sound great on paper, but what really matters is product execution. I love the old N* 32 valvers, so much so I bought a brand new tweaked L47 to slap in my Aurora, but provided GM can deliver the goods with a small block V8, or an exotic V6, DOHC V8's really aren't necessary. That said, if GM tries to shovel &#036;h&#33; with a Cadillac badge, I will march right back over to my BMW dealer. Until I see that happen though, I am not losing any sleep over this news.

[Camino LS6]

Great post!

[dado]

GenV v8s are the likely answer, seems they will be built in both OHV and DOHC form.

Caddy won't lose the V8.

EDIT: I'm willing to bet that this GM being unwilling to shoulder the expense of an exclusive line of engines for Cadillac that would be largely redundant. I would expect Caddy to get corporate engines in a higher state of tune than more pedestrian models. GM has always built amazing powerplants and building the UV8 would likely have been a waste of money. With other DOHC V8s in the pipeline, why bother.

I think Gen V will be ohv engine with DI vvt and maybe 3 valve head..this engine would be good replacement for Northstar engine in Cadllac.

But there is that UAW document that said 6.2 l DOHC.

[The O.C.]

With Jag's pricing strategy in the US, the XF 4.2 300-hp goes up against the 300-hp 535i, and the supercharged 4.2 420-hp goes up against the 380hp 550i. There will be an even more powerful supercharged "R" V8 to go against the M5.

But, yeah, they do have the weakest V8.

I think you may be wrong, actually.

In my latest Autocar (british weekly) they came to Phoenix and compared the "Premium" 4.2/300hp car to a 550i Sport 6-speed manual. Although they gave the prices in pounds, they stated in the article that the Jag and the 550 were within something like $275 of each other. (Of course add for the auto in the 550i.) So with the auto, the 550i is about $1500 more than the Jag....which is not a huge amount.

They supposedly drove US-spec cars there.....the BMW given to them by BMW USA as a press car....and the Jag by Jaguar USA.....

That would put the SC Jag somewhere NORTH of the 550i.....?? And that would make the (similarly-powerful) 535i less expensive than the 300hp Jag...?