Northstar replacment canceled

[enzodually]

Perhaps GM figures their enthusiast customers will order their Cadillac XTS(?) with an upcoming DOHC V12? Did they discover a way to bring one of their pushrod V8s noise, vibration and harshness levels down to where the next Northstar would have been? If so will this be offered as the base motor for the XTS or will it be the DI V6? If the V6 is the base motor and they do introduce a V12 will they offer a LS V8? Will the V12 with Active Fuel Management get close enough to a V8's fuel economy to make offering it wasteful? What do you guys think?

[Drew Dowdell]

I think we'll see an improved version of the current northstar with DI and better VVT.

and that this cancellation isn't really anything to cry over.

[loki]

I think we'll see an improved version of the current northstar with DI and better VVT.

and that this cancellation isn't really anything to cry over.

it's the next step, for sure. hopefully they're pushing that up, definitely by '10MY

hopefully it'll be a little surprising with what they do to it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Is there a source for this?

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM cancels V-8 program for luxury cars

Richard Truett and

and Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

January 3, 2008 - 12:50 pm ET

DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.

The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.

In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.

GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.

The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.

Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”

He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.

The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.

The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.

[enzodually]

The following is out of the most recent Automotive News however I don't think the author knows much about what she's talking about, one example would be how she refers to the 275hp Northstar when she should have mentioned the 320hp version in the STS/XLR/SRX. I doubt Kevin Smith's comments she refers to were a direct response to this news as well.

DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.

The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.

In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.

GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.

The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.

Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”

He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.

The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.

The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.

[NOS2006]

I have an idea: forced induction, DI, VVT V6 engines.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have an idea: forced induction, DI, VVT V6 engines.

you've been sniffin that Ford glue too long. :AH-HA_wink:

[K.C.]

Probably a forward thinking decision with the impending CAFE. The big V-6s make are more efficient at making the big hp numbers, and with turbo and supercharging, its even better!

[gmcbob]

LOKI

A little off topic - but is that you're 455 Buick GS? That thing is absolutely AWESOME! One of my favorite GM muscle cars ever! I'd love to drive one. Great color too.

As far as the news about the new Cadillac V8, I think everyone is prematurely freaking out - a lot can change in 2 years. As long as GM doesn't go too crazy and cancel the rear drive Camaro and G8, I won't lose too much sleep.

Edited January 4, 2008 by gmcbob

[VenSeattle]

GM has a habit of multiple groups performing overlapping development/research. Perhaps something won out that makes the current NS still the best bet? Maybe tests pairing it up with the developing hybrid systems came out on top?

[aldw]

GM better come out with a DOHC V-8 to beat the Germans with, otherwise it will be full of fail and stupid.

[Robert Hall]

GM better come out with a DOHC V-8 to beat the Germans with, otherwise it will be full of fail and stupid.

Sounds like they don't intend for Cadillac to play in the big leagues beyond the CTS..

[aldw]

Sounds like they don't intend for Cadillac to play in the big leagues beyond the CTS..

F*** GM if that's the case, Toyota becoming numero uno would be a far preferable outcome then.

[Drew Dowdell]

WTF guys?! They canceled one V8 in development.... the Northstar isn't going away! With just DI and VVT on the table there is a lot of life left in the Northstar. Pair it up with a 2-mode hybrid and great things will happen.

quit acting like GM just stole your lollypop.

[Robert Hall]

WTF guys?! They canceled one V8 in development.... the Northstar isn't going away! With just DI and VVT on the table there is a lot of life left in the Northstar. Pair it up with a 2-mode hybrid and great things will happen.

quit acting like GM just stole your lollypop.

They haven't done anything to update the Northstar in quite a while, though... and who says DI and VVT is going to happen for the Northstar?

[Drew Dowdell]

They haven't done anything to update the Northstar in quite a while, though... and who says DI and VVT is going to happen for the Northstar?

3 years ago?

[Northstar]

3 years ago?

The Northstar hasn't been updated since 2003.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

5 comments.

1) I really hate that GM probably wasted a lot of money on this and isn't going to use it (Something they do way too often)

2) The current Northstar stopped being a "stellar" engine a few years ago... Is it good? Sure! Is it STELLAR (Like it used to be) Hell no.

3) If indeed Cadillac is now being planned without V8's then the division, as well as it's renaissance, is a joke and they might as well just start cloning Chevrolets (a la Ford and Lincoln).

4) If GM has in fact given up on Cadillac competing on the global stage, then nothing ever changed within the company in the first place and I will enjoy watching them crash and burn sooner rather than later.

5) If this is the future of GM (overreacting and just plain giving up -- all the while on the verge of greatness, as always) then it is a sad day and I would think the company deserves the shallow grave it gets.

I personally hope VenSeattle is right. Isn't this what happened with the UV8? Another program (Maybe this one) won out over it and therefore it was discontinued.

Edited January 4, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Northstar]

5 comments.

1) I really hate that GM probably wasted a lot of money on this and isn't going to use it (Something they do way too often)

2) The current Northstar stopped being a "stellar" engine a few years ago... Is it good? Sure! Is it STELLAR (Like it used to be) Hell no.

3) If indeed Cadillac is now being planned without V8's then the division, as well as it's renaissance, is a joke and they might as well just start cloning Chevrolets (a la Ford and Lincoln).

4) If GM has in fact given up on Cadillac competing on the global stage, then nothing ever changed within the company in the first place and I will enjoy watching them crash and burn sooner rather than later.

5) If this is the future of GM (overreacting and just plain giving up -- all the while on the verge of greatness, as always) then it is a sad day and I would think the company deserves the shallow grave it gets.

I personally hope VenSeattle is right. Isn't this what happened with the UV8? Another program (Maybe this one) won out over it and therefore it was discontinued.

Agreed on all points, except the engine. There's no way that an improved Northstar can be better than the UV8 would have been. The UV8 was most likely new from the ground up. With today's technology that wasn't around when the Northstar was made, I would have to think that the UV8 would be better than any Northstar that isn't at least 95% new, which is basically just a new engine anyways.

I could really care less about GM if all of this that sounds like it will happen happens. GME can go suck on Toyota's balls. Note to GME: We don't give a rat's ass about mainstream European cars (see VW). I want to offer an early congratulations to Carl Peter Forster for turning away many people who thought they'd buy GM for life. I also want to thank him for the future demise of a company that was returning to greatness. Now, GM will be nothing more than a combination of Hyundais and VWs. We have no one else to thank but him.

When I go to buy a new car, I have a bad feeling it won't be a GM. I might not even have a GM on my list if the time is too far down the road. All of this makes me wonder if the Corvette is even safe.

What a bunch of idiots that run GME. They may have an idea of how to run a company in Europe, but they obviously have no idea how to run a company in the US or around the globe. If Carl Peter Forster does indeed get the control he wants, it could be a sad day for a lot of us.

*Note that I am not intending to say that those running GME don't know what they're doing in Europe, but I don't think making the American market like the European market (which it appears may be what they're going for) is a good idea.

[enzodually]

Both Cadillac and GM's top brass know their full-size buying customers waaay to well these days to not offer at least a V-8 in their new flagship sedan. If we could assume that a V-12 based on two DI V6s was on its way for this car and that it could achieve non CAFE penalizing emissions based on it's (forgiving) LWB footprint what would it's price be and what powertrain variations would be offered below this? Would the cost of a reworked DOHC Northstar be worthwhile for a lower priced less publicized version? How would a DI LS motor with Active Fuel Management be received buy their customers? If using a LS V-8 allows them to offer this car for under $70K loaded I'd say the world would still buy them up. Though don't get me wrong, I'd still much prefer a DOHC.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Agreed on all points, except the engine. There's no way that an improved Northstar can be better than the UV8 would have been. The UV8 was most likely new from the ground up. With today's technology that wasn't around when the Northstar was made, I would have to think that the UV8 would be better than any Northstar that isn't at least 95% new, which is basically just a new engine anyways.

I could really care less about GM if all of this that sounds like it will happen happens. GME can go suck on Toyota's balls. Note to GME: We don't give a rat's ass about mainstream European cars (see VW). I want to offer an early congratulations to Carl Peter Forster for turning away many people who thought they'd buy GM for life. I also want to thank him for the future demise of a company that was returning to greatness. Now, GM will be nothing more than a combination of Hyundais and VWs. We have no one else to thank but him.

When I go to buy a new car, I have a bad feeling it won't be a GM. I might not even have a GM on my list if the time is too far down the road. All of this makes me wonder if the Corvette is even safe.

What a bunch of idiots that run GME. They may have an idea of how to run a company in Europe, but they obviously have no idea how to run a company in the US or around the globe. If Carl Peter Forster does indeed get the control he wants, it will be a sad day for a lot of us.

I don't get it... Since when has this become such an invasion of GME and how did they supposedly get so much power?!?!

It seems that yesterday we were GMNA running the company and then all of the sudden today, GME seems to be the tail that's wagging the dog?

What gives?

[Northstar]

I don't get it... Since when has this become such an invasion of GME and how did they supposedly get so much power?!?!

It seems that yesterday we were GMNA running the company and then all of the sudden today, GME seems to be the tail that's wagging the dog?

What gives?

Think globally. GME has no use for Zeta. GMNA would like to have some Zeta cars. Holden would like Zeta cars (obviously). China uses Zeta cars. GME does not. I highly doubt that GMNA, Holden, and China were pushing for Zeta's demise, since they all use or had plans to use Zeta a lot. GME had no such plans it would seem, and therefore would be the only part of GM that wouldn't want to see development money put into Zeta.

Perhaps I went a bit overboard in my post, but my general feeling right now is GME is the only part of GM that wouldn't want Zeta, and it seems a lot of things are starting to fall GME's way. CPF would be to blame, it would seem.

[thegriffon]

Where is all this ill-feeling toward GME coming from? It has nothing to do with them. This is all CAFE and the general industry trend. Cadillac doesn't have the global volume to support a V8 program whose volume is falling every day. Toyota can spend on a V8 prgram because A) it has money to burn, and B) it uses the same block in the LandCruiser, Sequoia and Tundra. BMW has much greater global volume to support niche V8 production. Audi uses the same design for everything from 4–10 cylinder engines (meaning 90 deg V6 and V10 engines when that is not the optimal angle); Mercedes new V8 shares it's design with the higher-volume V6. GM's V6 however is 60 deg, perfect for a V6 but unsuitable for a V8, and an ecotec-based V8 doesn't save as much money in tooling costs. I suspect Cadillac will get the 6.2 L DOHC small block instead.

[dado]

Where is all this ill-feeling toward GME coming from? It has nothing to do with them. This is all CAFE and the general industry trend. Cadillac doesn't have the global volume to support a V8 program whose volume is falling every day. Toyota can spend on a V8 prgram because A) it has money to burn, and B) it uses the same block in the LandCruiser, Sequoia and Tundra. BMW has much greater global volume to support niche V8 production. Audi uses the same design for everything from 4–10 cylinder engines (meaning 90 deg V6 and V10 engines when that is not the optimal angle); Mercedes new V8 shares it's design with the higher-volume V6. GM's V6 however is 60 deg, perfect for a V6 but unsuitable for a V8, and an ecotec-based V8 doesn't save as much money in tooling costs. I suspect Cadillac will get the 6.2 L DOHC small block instead.

Isn't small block engine ohv design? With cam in block? So it can be small block DOHC

[Drew Dowdell]

The Northstar hasn't been updated since 2003.

2006? STS-V/XLR-V

[Sixty8panther]

All I want to know is when will GM come to its senses and produce the SIXTEEN,

there's NO reason it shouldn't be, esp. with D.O.D.

V-12 are for lame Italian cars...

[Robert Hall]

Isn't small block engine ohv design? With cam in block? So it can be small block DOHC

The 6.2 is OHV...there is no 6.2 DOHC from GM.

[CSpec]

Isn't there a 6.2L DOHC V8 in the new truck program?

[cmattson]

There is no 6.2 DOHC from GM (yet). I'm really not surprised about the announcement for a couple of reasons:

You can make the case for cancelling a DOHC V8 altogether for the reasons of:

1) When your DI-3.6V6 almost matches the output numbers of your 'premium' V8, why bother exactly?

2) The block of the high feature V6's can support bores in the range 2.8l-4.0l (I believe the native block is 4.0l and they use cyl. sleeves to scale it downard for the application). If you can squeeze 306hp from a DI-3.6l, imagine a boosted 4.0l V6?

You can make a solid business case for sharing a 6.2l DOHC 'truck' engine w/Caddy for a couple of reasons as well:

1) A luxury brand is defined by what it does-above-and-beyond everybody else. By definition, these cars are marketed towards the 'look at me and my toys' crowd A V8 is an extension of that logic.

2) Why develop 2 distinctly different DOHC V8 engines? You could engineer, build-out, and produce one at a tremendous cost-savings. The costs of design, tooling, and producing an all-new engine are outrageous - and the ultra V8 would be used by whom? Caddy and maybe Buick? I just don't see enough volume for that.

Looking at all of the above, the decision that would have the least of business sense would be for the Ultra-V8 to continue along the road to production.

[aldw]

V-8s are absolutely critical in the luxury market, and Caddy needs some type of exclusivity to work globally, or it will be a dead duck.

[Drew Dowdell]

2) The block of the high feature V6's can support bores in the range 2.8l-4.0l (I believe the native block is 4.0l and they use cyl. sleeves to scale it downard for the application). If you can squeeze 306hp from a DI-3.6l, imagine a boosted 4.0l V6?

I didn't know the 3.6 could go up to 4.0. Heck, a 4.0, naturally aspirated with DI would likely be good for around 320hp. There goes the need for the current V8 Northstar.

[Robert Hall]

V-8s are absolutely critical in the luxury market, and Caddy needs some type of exclusivity to work globally, or it will be a dead duck.

It appears to me that the future Cadillac strategy isn't necessarily to take on the big boys model-for-model across the line (to have a Cadillac full line comparable to Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus would be a massive investment), but to try and compete effectively in specific niches for specific markets...so maybe the large V8 luxury sedan (S-class, 7-series, etc), for example, is not a Cadillac target.

Edited January 4, 2008 by moltar

[thegriffon]

The 3.6 can be expanded to a 3.8, but you lose the cylinder liner and hp doesn't really increase. Figure on a Biturbo DI version of the 2.8 to ratchet up hp to the 350-400 hp level.

[Chris_Doane]

All I want to know is when will GM come to its senses and produce the SIXTEEN,

That would be never.

[Robert Hall]

That would be never.

The odds of someone building a time machine so 68 can go back to 1931 and drive a Caddy V16 are probably higher.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That would be never.

+1

[enzodually]

Our answer has been in this document all along which we have all known about for some time. Look a page 52. Looks like a 6.2L DOHC is on its way. Even better than a 4.X Northstar replacement if you ask me. Most large sedan buyers like myself (S550) would prefer the torque of a 6.2 over the mileage of a 4.X any day. I wonder if is going to be a 24 or 32 valve?

http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/delph...rder149pages.pd

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There is no 6.2 DOHC from GM (yet). I'm really not surprised about the announcement for a couple of reasons:

You can make the case for cancelling a DOHC V8 altogether for the reasons of:

1) When your DI-3.6V6 almost matches the output numbers of your 'premium' V8, why bother exactly?

2) The block of the high feature V6's can support bores in the range 2.8l-4.0l (I believe the native block is 4.0l and they use cyl. sleeves to scale it downard for the application). If you can squeeze 306hp from a DI-3.6l, imagine a boosted 4.0l V6?

You can make a solid business case for sharing a 6.2l DOHC 'truck' engine w/Caddy for a couple of reasons as well:

1) A luxury brand is defined by what it does-above-and-beyond everybody else. By definition, these cars are marketed towards the 'look at me and my toys' crowd A V8 is an extension of that logic.

2) Why develop 2 distinctly different DOHC V8 engines? You could engineer, build-out, and produce one at a tremendous cost-savings. The costs of design, tooling, and producing an all-new engine are outrageous - and the ultra V8 would be used by whom? Caddy and maybe Buick? I just don't see enough volume for that.

Looking at all of the above, the decision that would have the least of business sense would be for the Ultra-V8 to continue along the road to production.

This seems to be what is emerging from well placed source around the net. (That Cadillac will adopt LS power) That's fine by me as long as it has 1) exclusitivity and 2) IS ACTUALLY BETTER TECHNOLOGY THAN THE UV8 or at least incorporates a lot of the ground breaking technology that a new UV8/Northstar program would've used.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Our answer has been in this document all along which we have all known about for some time. Look a page 52. Looks like a 6.2L DOHC is on its way. Even better than a 4.X Northstar replacement if you ask me. Most large sedan buyers like myself (S550) would prefer the torque of a 6.2 over the mileage of a 4.X any day. I wonder if is going to be a 24 or 32 valve?

http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/delph...rder149pages.pd

Which makes perfect sense now...

Instead of having a Northstar that makes marginally more power than a V6, yet slurps more gas. It appears GM is going to cover the lower middle of the market with the more efficient and just as powerful V6 and have a larger, maybe more exclusive V8 at the top...

I can live with that. I don't think every car has to have a V8, but I do still want to have the choice of buying one and I do still want it to be attainable.

[enzodually]

Our answer has been in this document all along which we have all known about for some time. Look a page 52. Looks like a 6.2L DOHC is on its way. Even better than a 4.X Northstar replacement if you ask me. Most large sedan buyers like myself (S550) would prefer the torque of a 6.2 over the mileage of a 4.X any day. I wonder if is going to be a 24 or 32 valve?

http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/delph...rder149pages.pd

The above link isn't working, try this instead, go to page 51: http://www.soldiersofsolidarity.com/delphi_contract_all.pdf

[gmcbob]

I've been following this with a lot of interest, as I'm sort of freaking out with the rest of you crazy clowns

This is a good read though, and I think some can breathe a sigh of relief that Caddy will more than likely still have V8s in their portfolio. I'm wondering if they're planning on using a LWB version of one of the Zeta cars for the next large Caddy (to replace the STS and DTS) - hell, that would make sense to me. I think it would also be sweet with a 400 hp version of one of the LS engines.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124170

[Robert Hall]

I've been following this with a lot of interest, as I'm sort of freaking out with the rest of you crazy clowns

This is a good read though, and I think some can breathe a sigh of relief that Caddy will more than likely still have V8s in their portfolio. I'm wondering if they're planning on using a LWB version of one of the Zeta cars for the next large Caddy (to replace the STS and DTS) - hell, that would make sense to me. I think it would also be sweet with a 400 hp version of one of the LS engines.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124170

Here's an insane idea--maybe they can come up with the next big Caddy cheaply by putting a 4dr sedan body on the Escalade platform....68 would be ecstatic...

[aldw]

It appears to me that the future Cadillac strategy isn't necessarily to take on the big boys model-for-model across the line (to have a Cadillac full line comparable to Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus would be a massive investment), but to try and compete effectively in specific niches for specific markets...so maybe the large V8 luxury sedan (S-class, 7-series, etc), for example, is not a Cadillac target.

If that's the case, then lux buyers are much better off spending their cash on Euro products instead of a POS alsoran.

[Robert Hall]

If that's the case, then lux buyers are much better off spending their cash on Euro products instead of a POS alsoran.

Well, Cadillac does have a few competitive models--the '08 CTS is excellent, the SRX is good, the XLR...

[Z-06]

Twin Turbo DI 3.6 with close to 400 hp.

[enzodually]

I've been following this with a lot of interest, as I'm sort of freaking out with the rest of you crazy clowns

This is a good read though, and I think some can breathe a sigh of relief that Caddy will more than likely still have V8s in their portfolio. I'm wondering if they're planning on using a LWB version of one of the Zeta cars for the next large Caddy (to replace the STS and DTS) - hell, that would make sense to me. I think it would also be sweet with a 400 hp version of one of the LS engines.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124170

The woman who wrote this article sounds a lot like the one who wrote the original article for Automotive News. They both refer to the Northstar in the base model DTS for some reason and also seem to ignore the fact that Cadillacs will still be offered with numerous V8s. Even in this same article she mentions how Mr. Read has yet to determine how CAFE will effect GM and then soon after tells us that Cadillac buyers will have to get used to the idea of a "hot V6 instead of a hot V8". I don't think they're putting much thought into what they are actually saying here.

[gmcbob]

The woman who wrote this article sounds a lot like the one who wrote the original article for Automotive News. They both refer to the Northstar in the base model DTS for some reason and also seem to ignore the fact that Cadillacs will still be offered with numerous V8s. Even in this same article she mentions how Mr. Read has yet to determine how CAFE will effect GM and then soon after tells us that Cadillac buyers will have to get used to the idea of a "hot V6 instead of a hot V8". I don't think they're putting much thought into what they are actually saying here.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. In the article the GM power train guy mentions how GM has a bunch of V8s they can use if the market warrants having a V8 (which the market does I think, especially if someone is dropping $50k on an STS sized car), and then she sums up the article by writing "hot V6 instead of hot V8". It makes little sense. But, keep in mind a lot of these online auto publications are going for the fast read and the quick interpretation without a lot of real thought about what there saying - come to think of it, most media outlets operate that way - not just with cars, but with a whole host of various topics. Hmmm...the media twisting facts and making things up? Wow, pretty crazy idea..hmmmm.

[regfootball]

there are plenty of worldwide GM products which could support a top tier DOHC v8. Despite the excellent performance and broad application of the HF v6.

Cadillacs, of course, but also Lambda top end models (acadia denali), buick (park avenue ultra) and pontiac top end models (g8 v8 dohc SWEET), and even saab. I would even say GM pickups need to get a few of these to battle hoyotha.

No cadillac should have a pushrod motor. including ctsv.

no buick or pontiac ought to for that matter.

between the US and the world, caddy could easily justify design and build of such a device for a period of 5-7 years until it were obsolete (its shameful to carry engine designs much longer these days) either due to performance or mpg.

This reeks of classic beancounting. The northstar is like 20 years old. It's time for new and current. FCS, Hyundai has a new v8. And GM can't? Sad. pitiful. Says to me people in charge don't know what they are doing.

hoyotha ponies up to redo their engines all the time. they say 'i will build this v6, and this many of them, this is what we will improve, this is how many we need to break even'. Why it's so hard for GM to do it is amazing. It's like they have never built an engine.

keep in mind new CAFE is political posturing, it's attempt to generate PR do goodiness by those in office now to appease the liberals who have no idea what real environmental progress is. in 5 years, they could wipe it out with one stroke of the pen.

Edited January 4, 2008 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

This reeks of classic beancounting. The northstar is like 20 years old. It's time for new and current. FCS, Hyundai has a new v8. And GM can't? Sad. pitiful. Says to me people in charge don't know what they are doing.

The Northstar name is 20 years old. The current North/South configured Northstar was redesigned in 2003 and updated for V service in 2005.