Debate not yet settled, but Lutz thinks Impala will be FWD

[buyacargetacheck]

I have a hard time imagining GM giving up 300,000 sales just so they can use Zeta. Sure, some of those sales are going to go to the Malibu in 2008. But the public is already quite satisfied with FWD Impalas judging by the sales success. Plus, who and how many are really chomping at the bit for a RWD Chevy sedan? Besides the enthusiasts on this board many of whom probably wouldn't/couldn't buy one if offered? Add in the new fuel economy regs and it just makes sense to do a well-styled, chromed up, heavily insulated, soft riding, lengthened Malibu to fight the Avalon at a slightly lower price point.

So... reply & responses? Where does that leave GM with the Impala? What's the solution?

[smk4565]

...it just makes sense to do a well-styled, chromed up, heavily insulated, soft riding, lengthened Malibu to fight the Avalon at a slightly lower price point.

Isn't that what the 2009 LaCrosse is? The Impala will be a direct competitor to the LaCrosse in that scenario.

Lower price often means not as good. Especially when Toyota's production costs are $2000 less per car than Chevy's. If the Impala is $2000 less than the Avalon, GM is either making $4000 less per vehicle or using lesser materials and features.

The Lexus ES has a higher base price than the CTS, if the LaCrosse becomes a direct competitor to the Lexus ES, will GM price a Buick sedan higher than a Cadillac that they claim rivals the 5-series?

[Robert Hall]

Isn't that what the 2009 LaCrosse is? The Impala will be a direct competitor to the LaCrosse in that scenario.

Lower price often means not as good. Especially when Toyota's production costs are $2000 less per car than Chevy's. If the Impala is $2000 less than the Avalon, GM is either making $4000 less per vehicle or using lesser materials and features.

The Lexus ES has a higher base price than the CTS, if the LaCrosse becomes a direct competitor to the Lexus ES, will GM price a Buick sedan higher than a Cadillac that they claim rivals the 5-series?

Well, with the GP gone after '08, Avis' demand for the Impala and LaCrosse will go up.. but the next LaCrosse is going to be smaller than the current one and Malibu-sized, isn't it?

Also, the Impala does have a share of the police car market...if it were rear drive and aggro like the Charger, maybe that share would go up..who knows?

Edited January 2, 2008 by moltar

[smk4565]

Well, with the GP gone after '08, Avis' demand for the Impala and LaCrosse will go up.. but the next LaCrosse is going to be smaller than the current one and Malibu-sized, isn't it?

Good point about the GP, that was 78% fleet sale, so the Impala will pick those up. The Impala is 58% fleet sale now, it could easily hit 65% fleet which will make it really undesirable to retail customers regardless of engine, drivetrain, styling, chrome, or anything else.

I thought the LaCrosse was supposed to be longer than the Malibu (but shorter than the current LaCrap) but looking at the spy photos the body shape looks nearly identical to the Malibu. Similar to how the LaCrosse and Grand Prix shared side panels and window shape.

[VenSeattle]

The Lexus ES has a higher base price than the CTS, if the LaCrosse becomes a direct competitor to the Lexus ES, will GM price a Buick sedan higher than a Cadillac that they claim rivals the 5-series?

The LaCrosse Super's MSRP is already $32,605 which is close to the CTS's base price. The LaCrosse Super has more HP than the base CTS also.

With the NG LaCrosse moving further upscale, why would you put useless restrictions on the LaCrosse that currently don't exist to begin with? Why should the Buick LaCrosse care what the CTS is doing when it should be focusing on its competitor instead: ES350?

The NG LaCrosse will partially overlap the CTS in price depending on features, options, etc. It will also require a competitively powerful powertrain to successfully compete against the LaCrosse's intended rivals. But they are each a different type of vehicle in different premium segments.

[VenSeattle]

I thought the LaCrosse was supposed to be longer than the Malibu (but shorter than the current LaCrap) but looking at the spy photos the body shape looks nearly identical to the Malibu. Similar to how the LaCrosse and Grand Prix shared side panels and window shape.

The NG LaCrosse and new 2008 Malibu are not on the same platform (Malibu: Epsilon I; LaCrosse Epsilon II) let alone sharing body panels. Any similarities are illusions.

[Drew Dowdell]

Isn't that what the 2009 LaCrosse is? The Impala will be a direct competitor to the LaCrosse in that scenario.

Lower price often means not as good. Especially when Toyota's production costs are $2000 less per car than Chevy's. If the Impala is $2000 less than the Avalon, GM is either making $4000 less per vehicle or using lesser materials and features.

The Lexus ES has a higher base price than the CTS, if the LaCrosse becomes a direct competitor to the Lexus ES, will GM price a Buick sedan higher than a Cadillac that they claim rivals the 5-series?

I think it is not only possible, but likely that Buick and Cadillac can have matching price points all the way up the scale for similarly sized vehicles. Cadillac will be the sportier, "euro", agile car while Buick will be the softer, more traditional American luxury. If anything, GM is in a better position than Toyota because they can differentiate the two. Is Lexus "sporty", "euro", "agile" <IS, GS> or is it "soft" and "supple" <ES, RX, LS>? The idea here of course is that there is no confusion at GM. You know what you're getting with a Cadillac and you know what you're getting with a Buick.

[regfootball]

I think the Charger and 300 are plenty different from the Avenger and Sebring in almost every way. Size, powertrains, MPG, you name it and it's probably quite a bit different. The Sebring and Avenger are small compacts, and the Charger and 300 are quite big.

I assume you mean would an Intrepid do better than the Charger? In this case, it might, but only because the Avenger is so crappy and small. I think the Avenger is smaller than what a lot of people are looking for in a midsize. If the Avenger was sized properly then a FWD Intrepid wouldn't see as many sales as it would with the current Avenger.

Most Malibu buyers probably wouldn't go for a better Charger, which is fine. If they really want something bigger, perhaps a stretched Malibu could work. I know my dad (who has a Malibu) would most certainly be interested in a better Charger, however. The thing here is that I don't see that many midsize buyers moving up to the bigger car. You say some Camry buyers might move up to the Avalon, which is probably true, but they obviously do so in quite small numbers. (Camry sales are what, ~6 times more than the Avalon's, if memory serves?)

avenger buyers can move up to a similarly ugly charger and sebring buyers can move up to an equally offensive 300, so i guess their move up strategy is pretty good

[Robert Hall]

I'm sorry, but you just do not understand. Having an Impala on Zeta is about returning deserved prestige to a previously desecrated piece of American automotive history. Having an Impala on Epsilon is about building the same old tired, forgettable product you've been churning out since Y2K.

There is a reason why they don't build a Rolls Royce Phantom with front-wheel drive.

Good sentiment and all, but probably 80% or more Impala buyers today don't know or couldn't care less about the name history...it wouldn't matter if it was named 'Lumina' or 'Generica' (which would have been a great name for it) to Avis and most of buyers of the current W-body model.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I think it is not only possible, but likely that Buick and Cadillac can have matching price points all the way up the scale for similarly sized vehicles. Cadillac will be the sportier, "euro", agile car while Buick will be the softer, more traditional American luxury.

Good Point, and if that becomes the case, price being left out of the Picture, Buick will likely be the one getting business from me.

[The O.C.]

OK...I'll admit I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread.....

....but....

My opinion....is that a RWD Impala would be a GOOD thing for GM and Chevy.

Combined with the FWD Malibu (which is bigger and roomier than past Malibus) a RWD Impala would offer a choice in the marketplace that, to date, only Chrysler is offering consumers. Ford isn't doing it...and the Asians certainly don't do it.

Up-to-date technology has shown that RWD/FWD doesn't have a significant impact (if any impact at all) on fuel economy......and modern traction-control and stability-control systems make RWD entirely sustainable....even in bad weather. And if you need more, a simple, cost-effective AWD system can be offered (Ford offers it even on their FWD models.)

I believe you'd get more enthusiasm (a la 300C popularity) for a RWD Impala than you would detriments from the FWD-only crowd. The FWD-only crowd would either settle for a Malibu....or embrace a RWD Impala's drivetrain technology (traction and stability control, etc.)

[knightfan26917]

*nods*

Thanks for replying directly, VenSeattle.

The reason for comparison between FWD & RWD is because the NG Impala will be one or the other. We're trying to understand which would have a more successful outcome and why. I have no hatred towards RWD. I just don't believe it's a better choice for GM in this situation.

I can certainly understand where you are coming from ... and, even, I admit, your arguments for what you believe. Still ... what GM has done with car names over the last 20 years or so has really rubbed me the wrong way ... and it isn't likely to change, given their insistance on insulting people.

Be that as it may ... I'm not sure we can completely understand which would have a more successful outcome and why. As I've read the different posts, it is obvious that each (RWD/FWD) have their own noted strengths and weaknesses ... both having staunch supporters.

*shrugs*

While I understand the comparison between the Dodge Charger and the Ch#$r%*et Celebrity/Lumina/impala is made for the FUTURE cars, I'm still not convinced that the two CURRENT cars should be considered direct competitors (as many seem to, anyway), given that _currently_ one is RWD and the other is FWD. One would think that each has their own buyer base without regard to size, price, etc.

*sighs*

But, I know ... again, that's just me. Sadly, the more I read here, the less welcomed I feel.

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Now, how do you feel?" ... Dido ... 'Don't Think Of Me'

[VenSeattle]

OK...I'll admit I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread.....

....but....

My opinion....is that a RWD Impala would be a GOOD thing for GM and Chevy.

Combined with the FWD Malibu (which is bigger and roomier than past Malibus) a RWD Impala would offer a choice in the marketplace that, to date, only Chrysler is offering consumers. Ford isn't doing it...and the Asians certainly don't do it.

You might enjoy reading the entire topic. Several issues have been discussed in depth. As for RWD, Hyundai is about to foray into this segment. Let's see how well your prodigy brand does with Genesis. So far, everything else recently from Hyundai has fizzled.

Up-to-date technology has shown that RWD/FWD doesn't have a significant impact (if any impact at all) on fuel economy......and modern traction-control and stability-control systems make RWD entirely sustainable....even in bad weather. And if you need more, a simple, cost-effective AWD system can be offered (Ford offers it even on their FWD models.)

I believe you'd get more enthusiasm (a la 300C popularity) for a RWD Impala than you would detriments from the FWD-only crowd. The FWD-only crowd would either settle for a Malibu....or embrace a RWD Impala's drivetrain technology (traction and stability control, etc.)

One hurdle with this philosophy is retraining the consumer that RWD is just as safe in inclement weather as FWD. In their raw form, they're not. When a RWD vehicle is outfitted with several additional technological features, then yes. But as my sister-in-law tried to counter on that issue in an off-shoot discussion of my brief interview (see previous post), she automatically deducted if a RWD vehicle with all those features (finally) make the RWD vehicle safe to drive, then a FWD vehicle with those features will be safer still. It's almost impossible to win this argument without a demonstration. Even then, the first sign of oversteer or "fish-tailing" in a RWD car will scare most FWD owners because they don't know how to correct the slide. It's the complete opposite to dealing with understeer in FWD cars.

I believe you'd get more enthusiasm (a la 300C popularity) for a RWD Impala than you would detriments from the FWD-only crowd.

I can understand and agree to a point with you. If GM concludes they'll sell only a few Impalas (100k or less) regardless if they're FWD or RWD, then by all means go with Zeta and RWD. It could have more of a "halo" effect than a FWD sedan. However, we're talking about Chevrolet with a Charger alternative, not a 300C alternative. The Charger carries little prestige. The G8 & Buick Zeta will both exist with a RWD Impala and be on better grounds to compare to and challenge the 300C. Then there's the cost factor for Chevrolet. Epsilon II will be less expensive to build than Zeta. Chevrolet would benefit from the cost break building the next Malibu & Impala on a common platform. I'm beginning to wonder if there's any magic production number that will make Zeta cost effective in the sub-$30k range. Camaro is unique enough to have multiple powertrains and special packages that will span its purchase price from $20k-$45k. That won't be the case for a Zeta-based Impala.

Sadly, the more I read here, the less welcomed I feel.

Knightfan, you shouldn't feel that way. None of us post with quiescent intent. Enthusiasm and passion surround our opinions, which conflict regularly. Challenging and stimulating conversations occur constantly. That's one of the fascinating conditions that stand out with GM: GM attracts variety. Always has. Always will. It's difficult to say that about most import car companies. If I wanted a lemming brand with a lemming fan site, I'd buy a car with a big "L" on the front of it.

Keep sharing your wants, desires, dreams, and expectations. That's the only way GM will know there's enough demand =

[ehaase]

As mid size FWD sedans have gotten larger over the past few years, with the Accord now a full size car, I don't think that there is much of a market for a FWD Chevrolet sedan larger than the Epsilon II Malibu will be. I think the larger car market has shifted to trucks and crossovers. The current Impala is popular only because it is cheap, and an Epsilon II Impala would be more expensive. I think that Impala should have been put on Zeta as a sedan companion to the Camaro, more expensive and lower volume than the current Impala.

[regfootball]

One hurdle with this philosophy is retraining the consumer that RWD is just as safe in inclement weather as FWD. In their raw form, they're not. When a RWD vehicle is outfitted with several additional technological features, then yes. But as my sister-in-law tried to counter on that issue in an off-shoot discussion of my brief interview (see previous post), she automatically deducted if a RWD vehicle with all those features (finally) make the RWD vehicle safe to drive, then a FWD vehicle with those features will be safer still. It's almost impossible to win this argument without a demonstration. Even then, the first sign of oversteer or "fish-tailing" in a RWD car will scare most FWD owners because they don't know how to correct the slide. It's the complete opposite to dealing with understeer in FWD cars.

exactly. Average joe consumer doesn't care if electrics make RWD a bit more drivable, and they do somewhat, but people still want the total solution and for most folks writing checks, it's still that FWD or AWD is a better solution in their mind. you basically cannot change it. so why force RWD only down the dealers throat if they cannot sell them in 1/3 or more of their dealers?

[smk4565]

The Impala should be rear drive because GM has 1 rear drive sedan that isn't a Cadillac and for front drive lovers the G6, Aura, Malibu, LaCrosse, Lucerne, 9-3, 9-5, Delta platform (though much smaller) and the Lambdas and theta SUVs are front drive and car based. They have a ton of front drive stuff for people to choose from, and hardly anything rear wheel drive.

As far as Buick goes, they are not a luxury brand. Their top end sedan has a base price of $25,500, and almost always has a $2500 rebate (wow a Buick flagship for less than a Camry 4-cylinder). That puts Buick closer to Ford than Lincoln, let alone Lexus. When the cheapest car on a Buick lot is $33,000 and the brand has fewer than 9% fleet sales, they can think about being a luxury brand.

[Camino LS6]

Given the endorsement of a zeta Impala by so many with a wide-range of automotive tastes in this thread, the FWD car seems like a terrible mistake to me.

A mistake I fear has already been made.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Given the endorsement of a zeta Impala by so many with a wide-range of automotive tastes in this thread, the FWD car seems like a terrible mistake to me.

A mistake I fear has already been made.

Wait, where does this leave the Camaro that's due out in the next year? A key to it's profitability is that it shares powertrains and a common platform with the Impala, like the Challenger and the Charger.

Uh-oh. No Camaro for twenty grand?

I would like to take every smarter member of Congress out for an afternoon of electro-shock and just guillotine the stupid ones (guess I'd need a lot of body bags then, huh?).

Edited January 3, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[VenSeattle]

The Impala should be rear drive because GM has 1 rear drive sedan that isn't a Cadillac and for front drive lovers the G6, Aura, Malibu, LaCrosse, Lucerne, 9-3, 9-5, Delta platform (though much smaller) and the Lambdas and theta SUVs are front drive and car based. They have a ton of front drive stuff for people to choose from, and hardly anything rear wheel drive.

As far as Buick goes, they are not a luxury brand. Their top end sedan has a base price of $25,500, and almost always has a $2500 rebate (wow a Buick flagship for less than a Camry 4-cylinder). That puts Buick closer to Ford than Lincoln, let alone Lexus. When the cheapest car on a Buick lot is $33,000 and the brand has fewer than 9% fleet sales, they can think about being a luxury brand.

Get back to us in 2011 since you continue to play ignorant of the product plans for Buick. (BTW, Camry & Lincolns (in general) have heavy incentives too.)

[knightfan26917]

Knightfan, you shouldn't feel that way.

Yeah, I know I _shouldn't_ feel that way, but in some respects, I do.

Tho, reading some posts from today, sounds like the RWD crowd is speaking up a bit more . Maybe I'm just a bit more vocal about all of this. But, I'm not about to change my opinions or even tone down my opinions for people to respect me. If I did, I'd be lying to myself ... and everyone else [and thus, following in Ch#$r%*et's well-established footprint in that area] ... and that wouldn't be fair, either. At least, not imho.

*shrugs*

But, yeah, I definitely am not a "lemming brand" fan ... not by any stretch of the imagination . he he

Keep sharing your wants, desires, dreams, and expectations. That's the only way GM will know there's enough demand =

I agree ... but, it sure hasn't helped so far......

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Promises mean everything" ... Everclear ... 'Wonderful'

[cletus8269]

Given the endorsement of a zeta Impala by so many with a wide-range of automotive tastes in this thread, the FWD car seems like a terrible mistake to me.

A mistake I fear has already been made.

as is my fear. all the auto publications i read maybe 6 months ago were abuzz and jubilent of the hint that there was a rwd impy in the works. i have a terrible feeling that if it slips in without the rear tires making smoke there will be a huge number of people let down that are waiting for this ride. i myself being one of them. asside from a consumers point of view companies need to keep the fan base happy. those dedicated few who preach to their friends and neighbors about products are usually a companies best asset. i may put away my megaphone after this betrayal, if it comes to pass.

[Camino LS6]

as is my fear. all the auto publications i read maybe 6 months ago were abuzz and jubilent of the hint that there was a rwd impy in the works. i have a terrible feeling that if it slips in without the rear tires making smoke there will be a huge number of people let down that are waiting for this ride. i myself being one of them. asside from a consumers point of view companies need to keep the fan base happy. those dedicated few who preach to their friends and neighbors about products are usually a companies best asset. i may put away my megaphone after this betrayal, if it comes to pass.

I may have to put mine on a shelf as well if zeta becomes as gutted as it seems it will.

All those great cars... and almost within reach.

[vonVeezelsnider]

as is my fear. all the auto publications i read maybe 6 months ago were abuzz and jubilent of the hint that there was a rwd impy in the works. i have a terrible feeling that if it slips in without the rear tires making smoke there will be a huge number of people let down that are waiting for this ride. i myself being one of them. asside from a consumers point of view companies need to keep the fan base happy. those dedicated few who preach to their friends and neighbors about products are usually a companies best asset. i may put away my megaphone after this betrayal, if it comes to pass.

I feel awfully betrayed too, but at the end of the day, because my driving requirements only require it to be conservative, tasteful, and American (RWD, FWD, AWD, it's all good), I won't put my megaphone away, there's almost sixty years of GM in my family and I won't give that up over one betrayal, but I will definitely think twice about my enthusiasm towards a new GM model... Hell If they don't have an affordable large sedan anymore with Buick going upmarket and Impala going Epsilon... I WILL buy a TAURUS. That's not a threat, but rather a Promise.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

I won't put my megaphone away, there's almost sixty years of GM in my family and I won't give that up over one betrayal, but I will definitely think twice about my enthusiasm towards a new GM model... Hell If they don't have an affordable large sedan anymore with Buick going upmarket and Impala going Epsilon... I WILL buy a TAURUS. That's not a threat, but rather a Promise.

But when GM turnaround is done,and GM is left with tons of cash,what if GM uesd the cash on buying Ford and Chrysler :AH-HA_wink: .

Edited January 4, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[smk4565]

Get back to us in 2011 since you continue to play ignorant of the product plans for Buick. (BTW, Camry & Lincolns (in general) have heavy incentives too.)

Buick sales were down 23% in 2007 to 185,791 units. The Enclave isn't saving them, they are still in the same free fall they have been in for the last 20 years. Oldsmobile sold 265,878 cars the year GM decided to kill them due to slow and declining sales. Hummer and Saab sales are even more in the tank.

How come CAFE regulations kill rear drive Impalas and a new V8 for Cadillac but they keep making Hummers?

[Drew Dowdell]

Buick sales were down 23% in 2007 to 185,791 units. The Enclave isn't saving them, they are still in the same free fall they have been in for the last 20 years. Oldsmobile sold 265,878 cars the year GM decided to kill them due to slow and declining sales. Hummer and Saab sales are even more in the tank.

How come CAFE regulations kill rear drive Impalas and a new V8 for Cadillac but they keep making Hummers?

LaCrosse was beaten with an ugly stick. The new one will be out soon. Lucerne still outsells everything in it's class except the 300.

[cletus8269]

I feel awfully betrayed too, but at the end of the day, because my driving requirements only require it to be conservative, tasteful, and American (RWD, FWD, AWD, it's all good), I won't put my megaphone away, there's almost sixty years of GM in my family and I won't give that up over one betrayal, but I will definitely think twice about my enthusiasm towards a new GM model... Hell If they don't have an affordable large sedan anymore with Buick going upmarket and Impala going Epsilon... I WILL buy a TAURUS. That's not a threat, but rather a Promise.

we have had tons of gm, my family is GM essentially.

Gparents

55, 56, 57 chevy, 65 impala, 68 impala, 69 impala (now mine), a caddy, 86 scottsdale, 96 sierra, 94 and 97 bonnevilles

Parents

68 chevelle,69 custom, 72 stepside, 78 custom, 77 vette, 82 sunbird, 85 cavalier wagon(id like to forget), 86 monte carlo, 93 s-10 blazer, 94 z28, 97 1500, 2001 blazer, 98 s-10 (sisters), 1990 ss454(mine), 2004 silverado Z85, 2004 Colorado.

quite a lot of gm metal through the driveway over the years... maybe hanging up the trumpet is a little hasty but i need to be impressed to use it more often. i dont want to see car supposedly styled after a 66 one of the best lookin powered by the front tires it would be a travesty

[vonVeezelsnider]

we have had tons of gm, my family is GM essentially.

Gparents

55, 56, 57 chevy, 65 impala, 68 impala, 69 impala (now mine), a caddy, 86 scottsdale, 96 sierra, 94 and 97 bonnevilles

Parents

68 chevelle,69 custom, 72 stepside, 78 custom, 77 vette, 82 sunbird, 85 cavalier wagon(id like to forget), 86 monte carlo, 93 s-10 blazer, 94 z28, 97 1500, 2001 blazer, 98 s-10 (sisters), 1990 ss454(mine), 2004 silverado Z85, 2004 Colorado.

quite a lot of gm metal through the driveway over the years... maybe hanging up the trumpet is a little hasty but i need to be impressed to use it more often. i dont want to see car supposedly styled after a 66 one of the best lookin powered by the front tires it would be a travesty

For the Parents...

65 Impala SS, 67 Acadien, 67 Delta 88 Hardtop Coupe, 1975 LeMans, 1972 Cutlass S, 1989 Grand Am, Dustbuster, 3 Ventures, Maxx, 07 Impala LS, 97 Cavalier

Grandparents

07 Impala LT, 2 1970s Chevy Vans, 1956 Cadillac, 1953 Chevy, 1946 Chevy, 1972 Pontiac, 1940s GMC farm truck... and more that they can't specifically remember

When you've had that many cars from one manufacturer, you expect them to always be there... GM is part of the family over here.

[Z-06]

Why not any sentimental letters to Mr. Lutz regarding the RWD Impala have been sent yet?

They were sent when we heard false info about Alpha Pontiac being Yanked, may be it is time for us to send one and hear straight from the Wizard.

[VenSeattle]

Buick sales were down 23% in 2007 to 185,791 units. The Enclave isn't saving them, they are still in the same free fall they have been in for the last 20 years. Oldsmobile sold 265,878 cars the year GM decided to kill them due to slow and declining sales. Hummer and Saab sales are even more in the tank.

How come CAFE regulations kill rear drive Impalas and a new V8 for Cadillac but they keep making Hummers?

DUDE! Oldsmobile had 5 vehicles and 6 separate body-styles (Alero was coupe & sedan) when they sold that whopping 265,878 cars in 2000.

Buick discontinued 3 vehicles in 2007 and now only has 2 sedans and one CUV. I say sales are pretty damn good for just three vehicles... especially when comparing them to Oldsmobile. You pretend to be ignorant yet still purposely selective with your references trying to associate points that are not related. Buick is technically part of Pontiac & GMC for the points that matter. Oldsmobile was standing olone. Get over it!

[Drew Dowdell]

DUDE! Oldsmobile had 5 vehicles and 6 separate body-styles (Alero was coupe & sedan) when they sold that whopping 265,878 cars in 2000.

Buick discontinued 3 vehicles in 2007 and now only has 2 sedans and one CUV. I say sales are pretty damn good for just three vehicles... especially when comparing them to Oldsmobile. You pretend to be ignorant yet still purposely selective with your references trying to associate points that are not related. Buick is technically part of Pontiac & GMC for the points that matter. Oldsmobile was standing olone. Get over it!

There are lies, damn lies, statistics, and &#036;h&#33; made up by SMK.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Why not any sentimental letters to Mr. Lutz regarding the RWD Impala have been sent yet?

They were sent when we heard false info about Alpha Pontiac being Yanked, may be it is time for us to send one and hear straight from the Wizard.

I'll volunteer if nobody else will. I just need the address. (I can guess it but ...)

[Z-06]

I'll volunteer if nobody else will. I just need the address. (I can guess it but ...)

Write it. May be Mods permitting we can send it as an official question from C&G.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Write it. May be Mods permitting we can send it as an official question from C&G.

Time permitting (I'm busy with a lot of things), I might try and write a solid paragraph or two tomorrow morning.

[FloydHendershot]

Why not any sentimental letters to Mr. Lutz regarding the RWD Impala have been sent yet?

They were sent when we heard false info about Alpha Pontiac being Yanked, may be it is time for us to send one and hear straight from the Wizard.

The inmates shouldn't run the asylum.

As nice as a RWD Impala sounds I don't want to be the one hammering the nails. How many loyal Camry or Accord

customers pine for RWD.

[Z-06]

The inmates shouldn't run the asylum.

As nice as a RWD Impala sounds I don't want to be the one hammering the nails. How many loyal Camry or Accord

customers pine for RWD.

It is not about pining RWD from Accord or Camry buyers it is about

a. Creating a new market.

b. Catching a market that may be nascent.

c. Not being an also ran in the industry.

[smk4565]

A front drive Impala that is prices a little more than the Malibu just creates more competition for Buick. The Malibu is already far superior to the LaCrosse, why give Buick more competition when they are fading as it is. The Impala should be rear drive, and not 205 inches long and 4200 pounds if they are worried about gas mileage. Rear drive leads to better ride and handling and most of the market doesn't do it, this is a chance for GM to capture new buyers.

The CAFE and mpg solution lies with diesel. The BMW 335d and 535d have 425 lb-ft of torque and get 2 mpg more than a 4 cylinder Camry. I think GM uses CAFE as an excuse for why they won't make a Zeta Impala, or a new V8 for Cadillac, when really they just want to shed costs and platform share, and hope marketing can create perceived differences between their 7 front drive sedans. That didn't work in the 80s, didn't work in the 90s, isn't working in the 2000s and won't work in the 2010s.

smallchevy is right, it is about creating a new market. GM can build a car 20% better than the Accord and still not win back Camry or Accord buyers. A lot of Camry/Accord type buyers won't even consider a domestic car. GM has to seek out new buyers, get people coming from SUVs, or Mustang/sports car buyers that need a sedan but liked rear drive, Grand Marquis/Crown Vic drivers that like rear drive but want smaller and better fuel economy, etc.

Edited January 5, 2008 by smk4565

[FloydHendershot]

It is not about pining RWD from Accord or Camry buyers it is about

a. Creating a new market.

b. Catching a market that may be nascent.

c. Not being an also ran in the industry.

I understand but not sure if that will help. That particular niche has been explored by DCX for instance, when they were together. The next stand out that will separate and generate sales appears to be alternative fuels, not drive wheels.

Other than that it's gadgets and gizmos. Just my humble opinion.

Edited January 5, 2008 by FloydHendershot

[Oracle of Delphi]

Time permitting (I'm busy with a lot of things), I might try and write a solid paragraph or two tomorrow morning.

He will simply reiterate what he said in his statement to the press. What is it about NO, you guys just don't understand? I swear y'all sound like a bunch of spoiled children. Go ahead write him, I'd love to see that answer. :rotflmao: Thank God all GM email addresses will be changing to our EDSNET ID's soon, and this is exactly why.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[vonVeezelsnider]

He will simply reiterate what he said in his statement to the press. What is it about NO, you guys just don't understand? I swear y'all sound like a bunch of spoiled children. Go ahead write him, I'd love to see that answer. :rotflmao: Thank God all GM email addresses will be changing to our EDSNET ID's soon, and this is exactly why.

I have to echo der Börger on this one... Sometimes it's too late for anything to be done.

Edited January 5, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[Drew Dowdell]

A front drive Impala that is prices a little more than the Malibu just creates more competition for Buick. The Malibu is already far superior to the LaCrosse, why give Buick more competition when they are fading as it is. The Impala should be rear drive, and not 205 inches long and 4200 pounds if they are worried about gas mileage. Rear drive leads to better ride and handling and most of the market doesn't do it, this is a chance for GM to capture new buyers.

You really don't follow the news do you? The Lacross II will be here before either new Impala would and Buick is moving upmarket with this new LaCrosse.

[Drew Dowdell]

He will simply reiterate what he said in his statement to the press. What is it about NO, you guys just don't understand? I swear y'all sound like a bunch of spoiled children. Go ahead write him, I'd love to see that answer. :rotflmao: Thank God all GM email addresses will be changing to our EDSNET ID's soon, and this is exactly why.

right.... good idea to close your ears to the people who actually care about the company....

May all your feedback come from BMWTrend and Honda & Driver.....that way all you'll have to do is sell rebadged Accords and 3-series and not have to deal with all this pesky "original thought" stuff.

I am fast learning to not care about GM anymore. If GM can't help itself with the technology it has on the shelf today, it doesn't deserve to go on.

[Camino LS6]

He will simply reiterate what he said in his statement to the press. What is it about NO, you guys just don't understand? I swear y'all sound like a bunch of spoiled children. Go ahead write him, I'd love to see that answer. :rotflmao: Thank God all GM email addresses will be changing to our EDSNET ID's soon, and this is exactly why.

Following this plan GM itself will get to learn the meaning of "NO".

As in " No, I won't buy that little FWD turd."

[smk4565]

You really don't follow the news do you? The Lacross II will be here before either new Impala would and Buick is moving upmarket with this new LaCrosse.

I know, it is supposed to be out as a 2009 model. So if the Impala is Ep. 2 then won't it just be a cheaped out version of the LaCrosse? And once the LaCrosse moves up market it is going to steal Lucerne sales, much like the CTS is stealing STS sales.

The 300C/Charger have been more successful than the front drivers they replaced, but they don't sell in huge volumes because of their size. A rear drive midsize car would outsell a full size rear drive car. Why Ford didn't take the Mustang's success and make a 4 door car off that platform and choose the 500/Taurus huge front driver is beyond me.

Edited January 5, 2008 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

Sounds like it's a done deal it this point..what will be, will be. Those all hot about a RWD Impala may as well move on and hunt down an oldie.

[The O.C.]

Hmmmm....I've scanned this thread but it's a big one.

Right now.....why would anyone in their right mind buy an Impala over a Malibu?

Sure it's a bigger car....but not that you get any advantage in rear seat room. Malibu is way more accommodating in a slightly smaller exterior package. Plus, it's based upon a much more up-to-date architecture with more up-to-date powertrains. PLUS, it's way better looking....with a nicer interior.

BUT....if the Impala were to offer us a sportier, RWD platform, with all the inherent characteristics and consumer perception that have been as well-received with the Chrysler LX cars, I think that would be GREAT. A mid-to-large RWD american sedan from Chevy!

As far as staying FWD for the sake of it....I don't see it doing much to help the Taurus/Sable.....???

[Drew Dowdell]

Hmmmm....I've scanned this thread but it's a big one.

Right now.....why would anyone in their right mind buy an Impala over a Malibu?

Sure it's a bigger car....but not that you get any advantage in rear seat room. Malibu is way more accommodating in a slightly smaller exterior package. Plus, it's based upon a much more up-to-date architecture with more up-to-date powertrains. PLUS, it's way better looking....with a nicer interior.

BUT....if the Impala were to offer us a sportier, RWD platform, with all the inherent characteristics and consumer perception that have been as well-received with the Chrysler LX cars, I think that would be GREAT. A mid-to-large RWD american sedan from Chevy!

As far as staying FWD for the sake of it....I don't see it doing much to help the Taurus/Sable.....???

From purely anecdotal evidence, it seems like the old-school chevy drivers are still buying the Impala <retail sales up recently>. It's the normally import drivers that are going for the Malibu.

[Camino LS6]

I predict that this new FWD Impala wil steal sales from Malibu while tanking in the marketplace.

They would be better off with no Impala than a new FWD version.

[Lamar]

I predict that this new FWD Impala wil steal sales from Malibu while tanking in the marketplace.

They would be better off with no Impala than a new FWD version.

All I know is, whether FWD, RWD, or AWD, they better do it right.

Meaning, apart from size and concerns that go with that, there should be no reason for someone to say that the Malibu offers something that the Impala doesn't.

All I want to see is a proper flagship sedan instead of a disputed title like they have right now... much like what's going on over in Cadillac.

[Cory Wolfe]

He will simply reiterate what he said in his statement to the press. What is it about NO, you guys just don't understand? I swear y'all sound like a bunch of spoiled children. Go ahead write him, I'd love to see that answer. :rotflmao: Thank God all GM email addresses will be changing to our EDSNET ID's soon, and this is exactly why.

PCS... The Hilter of GM.