Debate not yet settled, but Lutz thinks Impala will be FWD

[smk4565]

The market for larger FWD sedans still exists, so long as they are not priced in the near-luxury realm (think over 30k), and as another person pointed out, this segment is likely to grow as the SUV market shrinks. This is exactly what the Impala represents today.

Is the market for the Taurus/Sable strong? What about Buick sedans that are down 20% in sales and average buyer age up to 67, and the now defunct Grand Prix. GM got rid of the Bonneville, Aurora, LeSabre, Park Ave because people weren't buying big front drivers.

The top selling SUVs (not in order) are Explorer, CR-V, Rav4, Edge, Escape, which except for the Explorer are based on smaller car platforms. The Tahoe is the only big SUV in the top ten in sales, most of the top 10 is Highlander size (Camry size) or smaller. So why would people driving smaller SUVs trade them in on a huge full size car. Most likely they'd get a car between Civic and Camry size.

Edited December 28, 2007 by smk4565

[Toyota.vs.GM]

I got some sad news for everybody who want a RWD Impala.I don't know how true it is, but that may have canceled the GMX551 program(RWD Impala). go down to post 4 of this link

Edited December 28, 2007 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Camino LS6]

If the blood-letting stops at the RWD Impala, we will be very lucky.

[regfootball]

The Malibu has the same dimensions as the Camry. The Camry has been #1 selling car in the US for 9 of the last 10 years, the Malibu is exactly the size it should be. Not to mention the Camry sells elsewhere in the world also, not just North America like the Malibu.

If the Impala gets larger than it is now, it will be bigger than a Mercedes S600, is that a size car many people buy? The only cars bigger than the Impala under $60,000 are the DTS, Lucerne, Grand Marquis, Town Car (Crown Vic is fleet only now) and all have declining sales.

The W-body doesn't use space well, even the Malibu has a longer wheelbase than the Impala. They could even shrink the Impala and gain a ton of interior room on a decent platform.

the malibu needs to be 3 inches wider and have a less intrusive greenhouse.

[vonVeezelsnider]

the malibu needs to be 3 inches wider and have a less intrusive greenhouse.

What he said.

For EPII to be a suitable Impala replacement, and have me buy one... It's going to have to

A) Not Ride Like A Malibu- The new Malibu rides nice but the Impala is much more well behaved and justifies the higher price.

B) Wider with better, more supportive and well stuffed seats ala current Impala

PS: Have they considered taking the G-Body and Modernizing I/E Longer Wheelbase and less overhangs?

Edited December 28, 2007 by vonVeezelsnider

[Z-06]

The amount of research dollars spent on the Zeta platform and given the financial crunch of GM cannot justify GM NOT having a volume RWD car that can bring in Volume.

And for those who make the argument for the FWD boat, and citing low volume of Chrysler RWD example.

1. Even in when there was a brawl in the 70's by the big 3, Chrysler never sold the volume of a RWD GM. There are fans who would like to have the nostalgia back. I think the volume a RWD GM will bring is certainly more than Chry mobiles.

2. What Lutz may imply is that if he is looking for fuel sipping vehicles forget about small blocks. I am totally for twin turbo DI V-6 to help fuel economy and give the power of a V-8, while maintaining the RWD configuration. Add to the fact, the Diesel V-6, and the 4.5 V-8 may be the uniqueness. I do think that GM needs a 3.6 diesel, not the 2.9 of the Cadillac, producing about 300hp and the 4.5 can be tweaked to close to 350hp.

3. For those who make the argument for Impy being a FWD to compete with Maxima, Crapalon, etc., and using the low volumes as example, my argument is how do you know based on the volume of Chry RWD, and those POS FWD, that a car which has a halo name, was a mega seller in its history, has a great platform, has a loyal fan following will not command volume?

[gm4life]

It might not to be a bad idea, seriously I would love to see a RWD Impala because I know the sucess of a Malibu. Road in one on Wednesday and loved it. If they make a FWD Impala it would be for volume only making everything RWD in the large size is very silly. I think they should make the Impala FWD, and do a RWD Caprice. They should take a G-body and work on redesigning it that way you can use it for the next generation Lucerne (that we all think will be RWD... right) and the next DTS. Those cars have to much market share to take them away. Although I could like RWD versions of both as long as the cost stays the same, but if they want sales and they do make 'em FWD. Volume speaks. I think the STS/SLS, CTS would be great cars for Cadillac buyers wanting RWD sedans, as for Buick were getting a FWD Regal Ep. II and should get a RWD Camaro based GNX with a bored out 3.6 to a 3.8L DI with twin turbos and six speed automatics. And in addition to a FWD Lucerne with a 6spd. automatic they should have a RWD Park Avenue.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Saying there's not a huge demand for big, cheap RWD cars and using the Crown Vic as an example is like saying there isn't a huge demand for big, cheap shoes because wooden clogs don't sell that well, it's not the 1770's after all.

In 2006 Ford sold a combined 321,997 Crown Victorias, 500s and Tauruses. (numbers courtesy of media.ford.com That's over 300,000 "big, cheap sedan" sales you're saying Chevy doesn't need. Make a high quality, well equipped car at a good price with traction control and who's going to care of it's RWD? Heaven knows Toyota likes to brag about how many of its vehicles come standard with vehicle stability control, traction control, ABS, electronic brake force distribution, brake assist, etc; with such a slew of electronic nannies, will anyone really make a fuss if it's RWD?

Those of us who are taller and wider (wider myself) than most people also like to drive. In lieu of losing 50lbs or cutting off our legs at our knees, a little extra space doesn't hurt.

Thank you very much!!! That's a constant fear of mine in this age of downsizing for the sake or downsizing. Some of us have a hard time fitting in a car at all.

[BuddyP]

I guess I'm kinda shocked so many are so disappointed that the Impala might be FWD vs RWD. Seriously now, does it really matter? Will 95% of the buyers even know or care if it is front or rear drive? Here in the northern US, even with traction control, some sales will be lost if it is introduced with RWD. I can see a FWD G8 being a huge no-no, it's a sport sedan. We are talking about the Impala here... chevy's bread and butter. As long as it has some good styling and interior it doesn't really matter what the drive is.

As far as FWD vs RWD in fuel consumption, remember the RWD car has a lot more rotating mass in the drivetrain. This does hurt economy.

[cletus8269]

I guess I'm kinda shocked so many are so disappointed that the Impala might be FWD vs RWD. Seriously now, does it really matter? Will 95% of the buyers even know or care if it is front or rear drive? Here in the northern US, even with traction control, some sales will be lost if it is introduced with RWD. I can see a FWD G8 being a huge no-no, it's a sport sedan. We are talking about the Impala here... chevy's bread and butter. As long as it has some good styling and interior it doesn't really matter what the drive is.

As far as FWD vs RWD in fuel consumption, remember the RWD car has a lot more rotating mass in the drivetrain. This does hurt economy.

doesnt suprise me at all. i havent looked at an impala with desire since '96. when i heard rwd for the next version i was overjoyed... not so much now. just like camino i would rather see them call it something else and let the impala name bow out for a while

[regfootball]

I guess I'm kinda shocked so many are so disappointed that the Impala might be FWD vs RWD. Seriously now, does it really matter? Will 95% of the buyers even know or care if it is front or rear drive? Here in the northern US, even with traction control, some sales will be lost if it is introduced with RWD. I can see a FWD G8 being a huge no-no, it's a sport sedan. We are talking about the Impala here... chevy's bread and butter. As long as it has some good styling and interior it doesn't really matter what the drive is.

As far as FWD vs RWD in fuel consumption, remember the RWD car has a lot more rotating mass in the drivetrain. This does hurt economy.

simply put. if the car is RWD and they want any kind of consistent RETAIL sales in the snow belt, then the car needs AWD optional. like it or not, this is what the dealers, buyers, and people in the industry will tell you, and GM cannot afford to put a product out there that is 'regional' only. You cannot give some chevy dealers a car they can sell at the expense of starving other dealers elsewhere who have no ability to sell the same car. FWD would not hurt the appeal of a chevy large car because enthusiasts can get their RWD fix from the G8 or caddies. In case you hadn't heard, the STS and CTS gained AWD because of absolute market demand. The G8 is off many people's shopping lists because of lack of AWD. Fortunately Chrysler gives the choice with the LX cars.

The market wants traction, and has come to expect it, and the throwbacks who insist you don't need it are not at all in touch with the average buyer out there who expects convenience and safety.

So while I think the Impy would best benefit a step up to RWD its only under the premise of AWD being available, like on the Charger and 300. If GM cheaped out like they always do, then it would likely be best to cover chevy's backside and simply make it a larger fwd platform.

this is where i throw in the disclaimer on fleet vs. retail because if you were simply to import the "Caprice" from AU and sell most of them to cops and cabs, you would likely meet your sales goal for import through fleet business and the few retail sales you would get are simply gravy.

Edited December 28, 2007 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

So I guess we'll never get to see this car which was supposedly a real "stunner".

Remember that?

And do you remember how the plan was to have the new Malibu take over for the current Impala?

Very disappointing.

[Robert Hall]

Since GM hasn't announced anything official yet one way or the other for the Impala, I say wait and see...who knows what they are going to do?

[OshKoshBerJosh]

Is the market for the Taurus/Sable strong? What about Buick sedans that are down 20% in sales and average buyer age up to 67, and the now defunct Grand Prix. GM got rid of the Bonneville, Aurora, LeSabre, Park Ave because people weren't buying big front drivers.

The top selling SUVs (not in order) are Explorer, CR-V, Rav4, Edge, Escape, which except for the Explorer are based on smaller car platforms. The Tahoe is the only big SUV in the top ten in sales, most of the top 10 is Highlander size (Camry size) or smaller. So why would people driving smaller SUVs trade them in on a huge full size car. Most likely they'd get a car between Civic and Camry size.

GM had too many big FWD cars. GM had the Grand Prix, Bonneville, Aurura (and the 88 and 98 at one point),LeSabre, LaCrosse, Park Avenue, Impala, Deville/DTS, and Seville. In contrast, Toyota has just the Avalon; Ford has the Taurus and Sable; Nissan has the Maxima; Hyundai has the Azera; and Kia has the Amanti.

GM should field one or two solid entries in this segment, and the impala is the perfect candidate.

[smk4565]

GM had too many big FWD cars. GM had the Grand Prix, Bonneville, Aurura (and the 88 and 98 at one point),LeSabre, LaCrosse, Park Avenue, Impala, Deville/DTS, and Seville. In contrast, Toyota has just the Avalon; Ford has the Taurus and Sable; Nissan has the Maxima; Hyundai has the Azera; and Kia has the Amanti.

GM should field one or two solid entries in this segment, and the impala is the perfect candidate.

Isn't that what the upcoming LaCrosse and current Lucerne are? The Lacrosse is longer than a Maxima or Avalon already.

It seems that GM is thinking of making the Impala more like the Avalon, so that they can retire Buick if (when) the new products fail. This also justifies Pontiac's existence because the G8 would be more unique, and when they make a Cadillac off Zeta, people won't say it is a dressed up Impala. Chevy will have the Camaro as their Zeta car anyway.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if the Impala stays a big front drive barge and costs $23,000 and gets fleet sold to death.

[Northstar]

We’ll have to agree to completely disagree and see what GM decides. My argument strictly stands like this:

Chevrolet should be competing against Avalon, Maxima, Azera, & Taurus. Those buyers would consider a $32k FWD Impala if it’s class-leading.

The NG Malibu should not be used to cover the FWD mid-sized and premium large FWD segments. Many full-line mainstream brands have separate entries for the two segments:

Ford has Fusion & Taurus

Toyota has Camry & Avalon

Nissan has Altima & Maxima

Of those, only the Taurus would compete with a FWD Impala. The Avalon and Maxima are decidedly more upscale. The current Impala doesn't even reach $30k if you don't get the SS (and a loaded SS is only a tad over $32k), in addition, we know no one pays even close to MSRP for an Impala. Someone here bought a $29k LTZ for $20k, (HERE). Perfect example of why Chevy shouldn't be competing in the $30k+ range.

A loaded Avalon goes over $40k (starts at $28k), the Maxima starts at $28k and goes to $35k. Currently, those cars are out of the non-SS price range. The bulk of Impalas are sold well below $28k, as well. This is why I still say its better for Buick to target those cars. Buick has the image to sell cars at this price range, and the LaCrosse is going to be of a similar size, anyways.

Nissan and Toyota also don't have a Buick-like brand to give a car like this to.

Then there are the non-full line-up brands:

Honda has the compact Civic and large Accord

Mazda only has the midsized Mazda6

Mercury has the Milan & Sable

Volkswagen has the large-compact Jetta & midsized Passat

Hyundai has Sonata & Azera

Kia Optima & Amanti

Finally, we have Chevrolet’s greatest threat and competition (sarcasm) Dodge:

Dodge has the midsize Avenger and large-ish RWD Charger

The above vehicles will all be cross-shopped by that one NG Malibu. Why would the best selling Brand in the US try to produce only one FWD sedan to successfully compete against all of the above FWD vehicles? People can nit-pick why they don’t like each of the sedans above, but would a single large FWD Malibu be able to target the varied segments any better?

The result would be a compromised vehicle trying to cover almost $20k of market territory ($17k Fusions to $37k Avalons and Passats.) It’ll be too big (for compact/midsize buyers), and too heavy (in 4-cyl form.) A RWD premium mid-sized Impala would be too expensive to assist as an alternative to the “large Malibu” and just cover the upper spectrum which may or may not consider it since it’s not a full-sized sedan.

You're right, the NG Malibu will be cross-shopped with all of those vehicles potentially, except for the Civic. The LaCrosse will also be cross-shopped with some of them (Sable, Passat, Azera, Amanti, upper-level Accords, Avalons, Maximas). The Malibu could be cross-shopped with all those vehicles whether there's an Impala above it or not.

Why would it have to go from $17k-37k? The current one goes from $19k-27k, though it lacks navigation, which would bump it up to around $30k. Where is Buick coming in here? Above $37k? Buick's range is upper 20s to $40k in such a market.

Yes, it would be too big for compact buyers, that's why there's the Cobalt. For midsize buyers, I disagree. The NG Malibu is only going to be wider, not much longer, than the current car. I fail to see why extra width makes it "too big." Epsilon is narrower than most midsize car platforms, anyways, so EPII is really just bringing GM's midsize cars up to speed. It better not be too heavy, the Accord is only 3400lbs and its much wider. If it is much heavier, that's GM's fault, not because the Malibu is wider. Clearly it can be made plenty light.

Why would a Zeta Impala be mid-size? The LWB version of Zeta that one would assume the Impala would go on is 120" long. That's huge.

I personally believe a focused midsized sedan on Epsilon II spanning $19k-$27k and a focused premium large sedan on Epsilon II spanning $25k-$33k would be far more beneficial to Chevrolet. If GM’s fortunes turn around after a few years, GM could add a RWD premium Chevrolet sedan as a halo vehicle (Caprice SS or what ever.) But first, Chevrolet needs to successfully compete in the existing mainstream segments that Chevrolet’s competitors currently dominate.

First you say the Malibu would have to cover $17k-37k if it was the only EPII sedan for Chevy. Now you say 2 Chevy sedans would only cover $19k-33k. If you look at Toyota, the Camry covers $19k-32k, and the Avalon covers $28k-40k. The Malibu should mirror the Camry, and the LaCrosse should mirror the Avalon. Chevy doesn't have the image to sell cars over $30k or so. If you look at Honda, the Accord covers $20k to 31k and the TL covers $33k to 40k. Accord = Malibu, TL = LaCrosse.

The only competition I see for the Impala is the Taurus, and that isn't exactly selling too well.

I picture the Alpha chevy to be about the same size as the current Malibu but in a sporty form. Kinda like if Dodge had kept the Intrepid in production while simultaneously bringing out the Charger. Appeal to two sides of the same market. You'll notice I made the list up so that each body style of Alpha is shared between two brands to cover volume issues.

Are there any other 2 door Zetas out there that aren't Camaro? A two door Zeta for just Buick is an awfully large commitment for what would inevitably be a low volume car.

Actually, I'm hoping not. What I want to see happen is the DTS and Lucerne replacements move upmarket substantially. Lucerne bases at 26k today. On zeta they should add at least 10k to that. Yeah, GM will take a hit in volume, but that's what happens on a 10k jump in price. There should be no excuses made for a 36k base Zeta Buick.

Yes, I'm suggesting that Chevy take the G-body over as the Caprice. Assuming they improve the engine and transmission, it should have no trouble meeting the numbers Buick + Cadillac put out.

The volume has to come from somewhere.

I'm under the impression that Alpha is much, much smaller than the current Malibu. The 3er competitor is on Alpha, which leads me to believe that Alpha-based vehicles will be significantly smaller than the current Malibu. Also, I think that if it's supposed to be sporty, it should go to Pontiac.

If Buick got a 2-door coupe based on its Zeta sedan, I think the cost investment would be quite minimal.

The original projection for the Buick Zeta was 60k units a year. The Lucerne sold 90k through 12 months this year. I'm guessing probably around 75k of those are retail, so the Buick Zeta wouldn't have that big of a loss. In addition, the LaCrosse should take some of the old Lucerne sales, I would think.

Couldn't the same volume come from a stretched Malibu? The Impala only sells so well now because its a big car that sells for around $20k with almost every option on it. If you sell it at the price point of the current Lucerne ($28k-37k) and don't give it away, you will see a huge decline in sales.

In order to justify Chevy getting a car that competes with the Avalon, I feel this question must first be answered:

Why must Chevy sell fully-loaded Impalas for $20k ($9k off sticker) with leather, heated seats, power everything, moon roof, remote start, alloys, and 240HP V6s when Honda can sell Accords with 177HP I4s, cloth, no heated seats, hup caps, power windows and locks, and nothing else all day long without a problem for $23k?

[Drew Dowdell]

Why must Chevy sell fully-loaded Impalas for $20k ($9k off sticker) with leather, heated seats, power everything, moon roof, remote start, alloys, and 240HP V6s when Honda can sell Accords with 177HP I4s, cloth, no heated seats, hup caps, power windows and locks, and nothing else all day long without a problem for $23k?

OOOooo! Oooo! I know! PICK ME!

What is the "W-Body"?

[Northstar]

OOOooo! Oooo! I know! PICK ME!

What is the "W-Body"?

So putting it on EPII or G-Body would allow a price of up to $40k? I think it has more to do with being a Chevy than the platform underneath, personally.

[Drew Dowdell]

well, I wasn't the one suggesting 40k for a Caprice, but I think it could run from 25k-35k with the right platform, engines, and equipment... yes

If GM were to put the effort into it that they've put into the CTS and Malibu, the magazines would all be raving about Chevy's new Maxima/Avalon beater.

[smk4565]

W-Body and G-Body both have to die, along with the 4-speed automatic and 1990s engines. The Impala drives like it is form 1999, not 2007, which is why they discount them like crazy, while the Accord in 4-cylinder and cloth sells for $23k and after 4 years still sells for $15k. Reputation/image/perception go a long way. Camry and Accord have it, the domestics don't right now.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'll throw some more gas on the fire:

What about the Impala name? It's NO secret that a large part of the Impala's success is because of the equity in the Impala name. It's not prestigious, but it does convey "good, solid, car for the money" to the consumer.

How will an upsized Malibu account for that? I'd be willing to bet that most of the car buying public has a negative connotation with the name Malibu.

This isn't a major issue, but it is something to consider since a few of the more vocal posters think the Impala name should be put in storage.

[knightfan26917]

Knightfan... No offense was meant, but it's a known fact that GM's hierarchy was originally designed and is being reorganized to allow for customer ascension among the brands.

Only problem with that is that not everyone PERCEIVES that as "customer ascension" ... nor does it take into account the folks that either can't afford those "ascended" brands or don't want to pay out the higher premiums to be paid for those cars.

There will be Impala SS's in the future

Sure hope so ... the last one I've seen was from 1996.

FWD would not hurt the appeal of a chevy large car because enthusiasts can get their RWD fix from the G8 or caddies.

Oh? See my comment above....

I hope that those of us who actually like cars get one more good go at it before it all goes to crap.

For some of us, it already has. I have NEVER been able to buy a brand new Ch#$r%*et Malibu or Ch#$r%*et Monte Carlo.

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.lego.HO.model.MCs.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Northstar]

well, I wasn't the one suggesting 40k for a Caprice, but I think it could run from 25k-35k with the right platform, engines, and equipment... yes

If GM were to put the effort into it that they've put into the CTS and Malibu, the magazines would all be raving about Chevy's new Maxima/Avalon beater.

I'm going to assume the Impala is not going to have a 4cyl. The cheapest you can get a V6 Malibu for is $25.2k. The Impala would have to start at least a couple thousand more than the Malibu, I would think. Otherwise, why would someone buy the Malibu will the same engine, same features, but smaller size? You're probably looking at $27.5k for an Impala without much on it. Add leather, heated and ventilated seats, moon roof, NAV, 8-way power passenger seat with power lumbar, electromagnetic rearview mirror, a premium 12 speaker sound system, bluetooth, laser cruise control, and a power rear sunshade (all of these are available on the Avalon) and I'm pretty sure you're looking at $40k+. Even without NAV, for a pretty loaded model you're in the mid-to-upper $30k range, which would make me ask the question: Why does Buick exist?

A loaded Malibu is $28.5k currently. If a comparable Impala were to be only $2k more, you're looking at $30.5k without NAV, bluetooth, laser cruise control, premium sound, or ventilated seats. I think the job is better done with the LaCrosse in this price range.

One could argue that I'm making some sort of claim that no one will buy a basic Impala, but I see the basic LaCrosse starting at around $28-29k, the same as what a basic Impala would have to start at (assuming it has similar equipment levels to the cheapest V6 Malibu). I think most people would rather have the Buick at that price.

I'll throw some more gas on the fire:

What about the Impala name? It's NO secret that a large part of the Impala's success is because of the equity in the Impala name. It's not prestigious, but it does convey "good, solid, car for the money" to the consumer.

How will an upsized Malibu account for that? I'd be willing to bet that most of the car buying public has a negative connotation with the name Malibu.

This isn't a major issue, but it is something to consider since a few of the more vocal posters think the Impala name should be put in storage.

The Malibu can establish itself in the same way. Altima used to have a terrible image as well, now it sells very well.

I don't understand why everyone thinks the NG Malibu will be so big. It has been stated many times that EPII is not necessarily much, if any, longer than Epsilon, but is for the most part likely just wider.

[thegriffon]

What consumers? The majority of Impala sales are to commercial fleets. GM could call it the Big Sedan and sell almost as many. The retail market is very quickly moving away from such large sedans.By the time the next Impala comes around it could have 70% of the market for large (5 m+) sedans under $30K, and most of the rest would be Crown Vics. Chevy has no business selling a large luxury sedan, so GM really needs to target the Impala at its strengths—fleet sales. As I see it the two major markets are law enforcement and taxi service. For both you want a high-roof sedan with a large easy-access trunk, with room for a solid partition, low maintenance costs, and good mileage, especially in stop-and-go city driving. Some cities (NY to start with) will require hybrid propulsion, so a version of the two-mode system (whether f- or rwd) is mandatory. Since running costs are far more important to fleet buyers than initial purchase price, the 2.9 L diesel should be offered, even if it requires a $5K premium. The dash will need to accommodate custom electronics systems (emergency services radios, taximeters etc.). An off-road package for police pursuit vehicles (why the Tahoe is so popular).

[Northstar]

What consumers? The majority of Impala sales are to commercial fleets. GM could call it the Big Sedan and sell almost as many. The retail market is very quickly moving away from such large sedans.By the time the next Impala comes around it could have 70% of the market for large (5 m+) sedans under $30K, and most of the rest would be Crown Vics. Chevy has no business selling a large luxury sedan, so GM really needs to target the Impala at its strengths—fleet sales. As I see it the two major markets are law enforcement and taxi service. For both you want a high-roof sedan with a large easy-access trunk, with room for a solid partition, low maintenance costs, and good mileage, especially in stop-and-go city driving. Some cities (NY to start with) will require hybrid propulsion, so a version of the two-mode system (whether f- or rwd) is mandatory. Since running costs are far more important to fleet buyers than initial purchase price, the 2.9 L diesel should be offered, even if it requires a $5K premium. The dash will need to accommodate custom electronics systems (emergency services radios, taximeters etc.). An off-road package for police pursuit vehicles (why the Tahoe is so popular).

So are you saying Chevy should make a car that is sold exclusively to the police, rental, and taxi agencies?

[GMTruckGuy74]

So are you saying Chevy should make a car that is sold exclusively to the police, rental, and taxi agencies?

And then the consumer market will follow, with enthusiasts who want the beefed up car too. Much like the Caprice did in the '90s with the 9C1 police & taxi package. Of course a milder version (LS, LT) could be offered along with the beefed up version (LTZ, SS), making the car more likable to the mainstream market.

Enthusiasts want RWD, but will the Average Joe really want it too? And the argument "if they don't want RWD, the always have the FWD Malibu to choose from" really doesn't hold water, because some people will always perfer size over drive configuration. I remember selling a couple a 2000 LeSabre Custom - the husband was too large to fit comfortably in anything other than the LeSabre, even though the wife really wanted a Century. For the price they spent on the LeSebre Custom, she could have had a Century Limited with upgrades. However, the husband couldn't get into & out of the Century like he could with the LeSabre. I'm 5'8" and weigh 236 lbs; I just fit comfortably in my AURA, but prefer something larger (hence while I drive the Envoy more). While I really like my AURA, I kinda wish I looked into the Lucerne CXL a little more last November because of the size upgrade

[derrado]

The upcoming Zeta Impala was rumoured to be taking styling cues from the ol' 66 Impala and looking as bold and badass as possible, correct? Well, nothing's stopping that. I will bet that if they take a stretched Epsilon FWD platform and wrap it in really dashing and bold packaging (eg, Chrysler 300 but FWD), they will sell them by the boatload. We have to remember that us enthusiasts are the minority. Why do you think so many people buy Camrys? Everybody will want the newest, biggest thing and if they really take it to the next level with the Impala styling, FWD or RWD, it will sell. It may not be as scintillating a drive with the power going through the front wheels, but it won't be terrible. GM's been making high-performance front-drivers for longer than anyone else.

Only things to worry about:

1) If they're gonna go the FWD route, they better have a few decent, gutsy but fuel-efficient engines. If they release a FWD Impala with a 5.3 V8 only, they'll kill that fuel efficiency cred they had going on.

2) The proportions. RWD does equal better proportions.

3) Handling. With FWD, handling isn't gonna be great, especially when this rumoured FWD Impala will be a big'un.

I think if they're gonna go ahead and make a FWD Impala, it's gonna look a helluva lot different to the Malibu. They will make it bold. And it will sell.

[turbo200]

So are you saying Chevy should make a car that is sold exclusively to the police, rental, and taxi agencies?

i think that would be the best solution for fleet sales. why not keep the basic shape of the next Impala, change the fascias, give it completely low spec interior and exterior features, and call it a Basic or Classic or something nondescript like that.

I'm still hoping the reports are false and Impala will remain RWD. As griffon stated, the market is moving away from large sedans, the Accord will be an interesting marketing experiment. I don't know what the sales are like, but that Honda is pushing lease incentives already is not a good sign. It took a long long time for Civic to see lease specials. Leases are based on residuals and all that, so if there's a special, it's the car company losing the profit.

All the others, Maxima, Avalon, etc aren't really that much larger inside or out than thier smaller brethren. Taurus is the only one. I won't say size is the only thing inhibitting Taurus sales, but it seems to be a factor that isn't helping sales, being that it is so roomy and efficient.

[VenSeattle]

PS: Have they considered taking the G-Body and Modernizing I/E Longer Wheelbase and less overhangs?

There's nothing wrong with G-platform overhangs or wheelbase. The G platform can go under 200 inches and the current Lucerne's overhangs are no greater than the "modern-platform" Avalon. The difference in length between the two is found in the wheelbase.

[vonVeezelsnider]

There's nothing wrong with G-platform overhangs or wheelbase. The G platform can go under 200 inches and the current Lucerne's overhangs are no greater than the "modern-platform" Avalon. The difference in length between the two is found in the wheelbase.

Nonetheless, it could have a heavy MCE of sorts to support the a 6-Speed Auto, I hope.

[smk4565]

So are you saying Chevy should make a car that is sold exclusively to the police, rental, and taxi agencies?

I think that is what Pontiac should do. They could cover the police, taxi and rental fleet markets with a couple of sedans, and not have to fleet out Chevys, Buicks or Cadillacs. Then resale value of one brand suffers rather than 4.

I agree totally with the hybrid and diesel options. Fleet customers like taxi, government, police are going to require higher mileage. That is why the Ford Panther platform is dying and NYC is buying Escape Hybrid taxis.

[VenSeattle]

A separate (rambling) thought regarding RWD vs FWD:

If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300?

Why am I asking? I am aware that Avalon, Maxima, and Taurus sales are not setting charts on fire, but if you take into account each brand's approach to the mid-size/full-size market it looks much better.

Camry to Avalon - Can you see a Camry driver trading up to Avalon? I can. Maintains brand loyalty. Allows a Camry driver something different to lease after 3 years if the Camry is still within the same life cycle.

Similar can be said for Fusion/Taurus or Altima/Maxima. Not as much so but you get the picture. Total sales between mid & full size holds the market pretty well for each brand.

Now, you get to Avenger/Charger and Sebring/300. Sales combined aren't great. Do you see Avenger/Sebring drivers trading up to Charger/300? Do you see them appealing to similar markets at all? Are they just alternatives to each other? Is this really the best market approach?

When Camry or Accord drivers come in for trade-in, the first thing that pops into their mind isn't whether or not the next car is FWD/RWD. They look at features, content, reliability, space (interior & trunk), etc.

In the same light, any car that Chevrolet makes must not only compete against its direct competitor, but also the vehicle intended for that loyal customer to “move-up” to.

Original question - If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde have done better in the comparison?

In context to GM, if Chevrolet built a better Charger, would Malibu drivers want to trade in for it? Would the majority of Camry/Accord drivers? Would Avalon and Taurus owners? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Impala do better?

[VenSeattle]

Nonetheless, it could have a heavy MCE of sorts to support the a 6-Speed Auto, I hope.

It just as well for us to forget about the G-platform. It's dead after 2010. The only plant manufacturing G (Hamtramck) will be converted to Delta/Epsilon II production after that.

[Northstar]

Original question - If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde have done better in the comparison?

In context to GM, if Chevrolet built a better Charger, would Malibu drivers want to trade in for it? Would the majority of Camry/Accord drivers? Would Avalon and Taurus owners? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Impala do better?

I think the Charger and 300 are plenty different from the Avenger and Sebring in almost every way. Size, powertrains, MPG, you name it and it's probably quite a bit different. The Sebring and Avenger are small compacts, and the Charger and 300 are quite big.

I assume you mean would an Intrepid do better than the Charger? In this case, it might, but only because the Avenger is so crappy and small. I think the Avenger is smaller than what a lot of people are looking for in a midsize. If the Avenger was sized properly then a FWD Intrepid wouldn't see as many sales as it would with the current Avenger.

Most Malibu buyers probably wouldn't go for a better Charger, which is fine. If they really want something bigger, perhaps a stretched Malibu could work. I know my dad (who has a Malibu) would most certainly be interested in a better Charger, however. The thing here is that I don't see that many midsize buyers moving up to the bigger car. You say some Camry buyers might move up to the Avalon, which is probably true, but they obviously do so in quite small numbers. (Camry sales are what, ~6 times more than the Avalon's, if memory serves?)

[ejspecial]

Excuse me, I think I've accidently entered the FWD loving " Camry with a Chev badge on it" thread, can one of you ladies point me to the " Asskicking V8 RWD Chev" thread.

[Drew Dowdell]

Excuse me, I think I've accidently entered the FWD loving " Camry with a Chev badge on it" thread, can one of you ladies point me to the " Asskicking V8 RWD Chev" thread.

Yes, that would be in the 1964 wing.

[ocnblu]

No no no, it's in the "Shoulda, coulda, woulda" wing, aka "The Land of Sweet Dreams Turned to Nightmares".

[gmcbob]

All this conversation about FWD vs. RWD is pretty interesting. Considering the recent CAFE hoopla and "Maximum Bob" asking everyone and his Mother about "how do we get 35mpg out of cars using today's technology", etc, etc, etc, I wonder how long the Camaro, the G8 and all the other cool RWD cars that GM has planned will actually be for sale? Maybe just 3 or 4 years before they're gone? I certainly hope not, but I'm wondering if GM will cancel them as a knee jerk reaction to the new mpg standards? Lets face it, GM management has proven to make some pretty bone headed moves over the years (like abandoning a lot of potential customers by not making the Camaro and offering more rear drive cars), and I could easily see them canceling every rear drive platform they have (cars) instead of offering diesels, or Two Modeode Hybrids, or anything innovative to just to keep them on the roads. Thoughts, comments, concerns??

BTW, I think Lutz and Co. should know that I did indeed get 30.8 mpg in my LS1 powered 1998 Z28 once on a highway trip between Houston and Dallas - on 87 octane gas no less! That was 10 years ago, in a 305 hp (hehehe, yeah right) bone stock Camaro. If that was possible then, with no DOD technology, then I know they can get at least that on the highway with the upcoming Camaro. My city gas mileage was about 18 or 20, but I always got high 20s and up to 30 on the highway (if I "behaved"). :AH-HA_wink:

[ejspecial]

Yes, that would be in the 1964 wing.

Went there. Felt better.

[ejspecial]

No no no, it's in the "Shoulda, coulda, woulda" wing, aka "The Land of Sweet Dreams Turned to Nightmares".

Don't give up. It's never too late. All you need to do is get 200,000 mates together and phone, email and post letters to every GM exec, every car mag and every local politician every day for the next 6 months to a year and tell them you don't want no stinkin' FWD Impala. People power worked when Holden was gonna drop its V8, and if we can do it so can you guys. Do it! Now! You still here?

[knightfan26917]

Yes, that would be in the 1964 wing.

Wow....it's starting to really feel like RWD people are not welcomed here at all.....

A separate (rambling) thought regarding RWD vs FWD:

Original question - If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde have done better in the comparison?

Interesting query/thoughts, indeedy.

Given the hatred for RWD, I'm guessing the FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde would have done much better in comparison to the Charger/300 duo.

But, not for me. And a class-leading FWD/AWD Celebrity/Lumina/impala wouldn't make me want to buy it either....

Hmmm...which reminds me. Given the automakers and the general public's obvious hatred for RWD, why on earth is the Dodge Charger considered a competitor to the likes of the Ch#$r%*et Celebrity/Lumina/impala and Toyota Camry/Avalon? I mean ... I know WHY (size, etc.), but when it comes to the RWD/FWD/AWD discussion, it makes NO sense to compare them, since people are so pro-FWD/AWD and anti-RWD.

*shrugs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.lego.HO.model.MCs.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I'm not the only person with these things in mind" ... Linkin Park ... 'Somewhere I Belong'

[Newbiewar]

if i read the article correctly, i see that the silverado is not included in the cafe rules, meaning... GM could average its fuel ecconomy off of some cobalt and astras against premium sedans like the cts or impala ss that may not acheive the correct fuel ecconomy...

the Geo got 45-50 mpg... GM can make things that achieve the fuel ecconomy standards... efficency has been improving, but demand for power has also been rising... the question is... who will be the automaker to back down from power to accomidate fuel ecconomy, and who will look to new methods to achieve better results...

rwd vrs fwd... is not a problem of efficency its a gaging reflex... so many people who said OK Bob lets have it your way, are acusing him of wrong doing... its a second guess...

if sales rebound, then GM has more money to pay for new design, if sales dont, GM can scrap it and use an old tranny or what have you...

see how the G8 does...

if you use more expensive materials, better intakes, better exhaust, more finely tuned camshafts and heads, fuel ecconomy is not hard to acheive... AFM and VVT are just small steps to a totally redefined motor...

[Drew Dowdell]

I would really like to see direct injection used to make an engine more fuel efficient rather than more powerful. I know 300 hp is part of the bragging rights of the CTS, however the 255 was still quite good. I would like an option for the HFs get direct injection, maintain it's 255hp, but get 33mpg.

[ocnblu]

DI should be put into every GMNA gas and diesel engine, imo... for power AND economy... if it can be done reliably and economically.

[Camino LS6]

Sure, GM can build little tin cans that help meet CAFE - on paper.

The trouble is, they have to sell enough of them for the numbers to work out. And that's the rub: Americans don't want them enough to make it profitable - so GM has a huge challenge ahead of them to make these little cars desireable and profitable.

Otherwise, they will have to give them away just to meet the standards so that they can offer cars that people actually want. That means higher costs for all of us.

The Volt is a good start.

[K.C.]

How about a front wheel drive Impala competing with the Toyota Avalon and newly upsized EPA large car sized Honda Accord?

[ocnblu]

Another also-ran... a copy. GM's down fall since the 80's. GM needs to lead, not follow. RWD Impala would serve so many purposes... police car, taxi, family car, sport sedan... it is a car that suits us as Americans... no other way to think about it, what is, is.

[VenSeattle]

Wow....it's starting to really feel like RWD people are not welcomed here at all.....

Interesting query/thoughts, indeedy.

Given the hatred for RWD, I'm guessing the FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde would have done much better in comparison to the Charger/300 duo.

But, not for me. And a class-leading FWD/AWD Celebrity/Lumina/impala wouldn't make me want to buy it either....

Hmmm...which reminds me. Given the automakers and the general public's obvious hatred for RWD, why on earth is the Dodge Charger considered a competitor to the likes of the Ch#$r%*et Celebrity/Lumina/impala and Toyota Camry/Avalon? I mean ... I know WHY (size, etc.), but when it comes to the RWD/FWD/AWD discussion, it makes NO sense to compare them, since people are so pro-FWD/AWD and anti-RWD.

*shrugs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.lego.HO.model.MCs.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I'm not the only person with these things in mind" ... Linkin Park ... 'Somewhere I Belong'

The reason for comparison between FWD & RWD is because the NG Impala will be one or the other. We're trying to understand which would have a more successful outcome and why. I have no hatred towards RWD. I just don't believe it's a better choice for GM in this situation. However, something happened last night...

I went to a family-held New Year's party last night. My sister-in-law was there. Breakdown for my Sister-in-law and her husband:

Both early forties

Successful careers: She's an accountant; He's an electrical construction superintendent

Large house overlooking the bay

3 children - two away in college, one in high school.

two cars: Hers: 2003 Nissan Altima 3.5 SE; His: 200? GMC Envoy XL

The interest lies in the nearly paid for Altima. What is she interested in and why? I asked her a few questions specifically regarding this topic to find out what she thinks. Her responses actually surprised me a little and didn't exactly follow my own logic.

Interview

Q:Does she like her car?

A: Yes. She loves it.

Q:Price excluded, would she consider the larger Maxima when trading in the Altima or just another Altima?

A:She stated the Maxima has a really good reputation, but she doesn't want a bigger car. The greatest downfall for the Altima is its turning radius. A larger car would be worse and she doesn't want that. She needs a car that's reasonably maneuverable and fits into regular sized parking spaces.

Q:Would she consider an SUV/CUV/Van/Wagon at trade-in or just another similarly sized sedan?

A:Similarly-sized sedan. Her husband's vehicle covers the needs that an SUV/CUV/Van/Wagon would address.

Q: Would it matter if the mid-sized car is FWD or RWD?

A: Her husband would probably prefer RWD, but as a woman, she prefers FWD. FWD handles more predictably than RWD and it's naturally better in adverse weather conditions. She doesn't want a sports car, but likes a sporty vehicle. Since it's her car, she will get what she wants.

Well, I completely forgot and ignored the "two car" family in my arguments. That changes the dynamics quite a bit. The other aspect ignored was "the woman's" choice. Women hold the final vote for the majority of new car purchases (I think it was last published @ 70% or so.) Gay or straight, C&G's member base is mostly made up by men. If married/partnered, there are 2+ vehicles usually in the family.

IMO this is an excellent example of what GM is up against for the Impala in the US. I'm sure this scenario duplicates over thousands of Baby-Boomer families in the US. He won't give up the utility of an SUV (typical RWD car market buyer) and she doesn't want or need (kids are gone) a car that's bigger, with the expectation of her husband's SUV to continue supporting those occasional needs (when the family is in town, grandchildren visit, moving furniture, etc.)

So... reply & responses? Where does that leave GM with the Impala? What's the solution?

[smk4565]

I too would like to see direct injection on all GM's engines. There is great potential with the 2.8 liter V6, maybe upping that to 3.0 liters, and using direct injection to get 240 or so hp and 30 mpg highway. The 3.6 in the Malibu is making 252 hp and 26 mpg, I think anyone in the family sedan market would trade 10-15 hp for 4 more mpg. A smaller DI V6 could serve as the base engine in the Impala as well and Buicks.

If the new LaCrosse is supposed to be like what the TL and ES350 are to the Accord/Camry, then the Lacrosse would be nicer than the Lucerne, making the Lucerne irrelevant. If the LaCrosse stays cheaper than the $25,000 Lucerne and is just a streched Malibu, what is the point of making an Impala that is a stretched Malibu. Either way seems like there will be big time over lap with the 2 Buicks and the Impala, leading to one of them dying off.

[VenSeattle]

The current Lucerne will be disappearing a year or so after the NG LaCrosse comes out in 2009 (The G-Platform Lucerne goes out of production in 2010)... so no overlap within Buick.

The NG LaCrosse and Impala/Malibu replacement would overlap as much as the Accord & TL or Camry & ES350... not much (if done successfully). Completely different target markets.