Debate not yet settled, but Lutz thinks Impala will be FWD

[Camino LS6]

except as much as I would prefer a 2009 B-body like Impala, it most likely makes more business sense for it to be a decontented Lucerne.

except that it will parisitize the Malibu.

[Northstar]

I don't know how many times I need to say this for it to set in with most people, but Chevy doesn't have a car as big as the NG Impala would be, at least on the inside. The NG Malibu will likely be as big or at least almost as big in every interior dimension as the current Impala.

Does Chevy really need a sedan bigger than that? The NG Impala would be in a market that Chevy currently is not in, because it would be quite a cavernous vehicle.

except as much as I would prefer a 2009 B-body like Impala, it most likely makes more business sense for it to be a decontented Lucerne.

I think it makes most business sense for it to be a stretched Malibu. That's the cheapest route for a vehicle that probably won't give Chevy many more sales over the EPII Malibu anyways.

If it was Zeta-based, at least it would appeal to a whole different set of buyers.

[Camino LS6]

I don't know how many times I need to say this for it to set in with most people, but Chevy doesn't have a car as big as the NG Impala would be, at least on the inside. The NG Malibu will likely be as big or at least almost as big in every interior dimension as the current Impala.

Does Chevy really need a sedan bigger than that? The NG Impala would be in a market that Chevy currently is not in, because it would be quite a cavernous vehicle.

I agree to a point. The Malibu (and a theorectical LWB version) have the mid-large FWD sedan market covered.

A RWD Chevy sedan is another market entirely, and could be a good thing.

A new FWD Impala would be a plague on the Malibu, and as a "decontented" Buick, would smack of old-fashioned badge-engineering.

I'd rather see them fleet the current car to the end and put the Impala name on a shelf for a while. With or without the RWD zeta .

[VenSeattle]

Define "large sedan."

Is the current Impala a "large sedan"?

Give me a break. You know just as I do there are official "class" sizes and how they are determined. If you choose to ignore them, that's your choice.

For those who don't know...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses

How are vehicle size classes defined?

The size class for cars is based on interior passenger and cargo volumes as described below. The size class for trucks is defined by the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), which is the weight of the vehicle and its carrying capacity. Fuel economy regulations do not apply to heavy-duty vehicles, so they are not tested. See Which Vehicles Are Tested for more information on these vehicles.

CARS

Class & Cargo Volume (Cu. Ft.)

Sedans

Minicompact < 85 cu ft

Subcompact 85 - 99 cu ft

Compact 100 - 109 cu ft

Mid-Size 110 - 119 cu ft

Large 120 or more cu ft

Station Wagons

Small <130 cu ft

Mid-Size 130 - 159 cu ft

Large 160 or more cu ft

Now...

The 2008 Malibu is:

Interior Volume: 95 cu. ft.

Cargo Volume: 16 cu. ft.

Combined Interior Volume: 111 cu. ft.

Length: 191.8 in

Width: 70.3 in

Wheelbase: 112.3 in

Curb Weight: 3,536 lbs

The 2008 Impala is:

Interior Volume: 105 cu. ft.

Cargo Volume: 19 cu. ft.

Combined Interior Volume: 124 cu. ft.

Length: 200.4 in

Width: 72.9 in.

Wheelbase: 110.5 in.

Curb Weight: 3711 lbs.

So NO! The interior volume of the 2008 Malibu and 2008 Impala are NOT the same size.

[Camino LS6]

Umm Ven, Northie said NG Malibu - not the current car.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Umm Ven, Northie said NG Malibu - not the current car.

[VenSeattle]

The Accord is not much larger than the current Malibu, and the Avalon not much larger than the Accord. A stretched NG Malibu would be just as big as the Accord. I also think the NG LaCrosse will compete nicely with the Avalon. The CTS starts at $32k, so I expect the LaCrosse to be sub-$30k. The Avalon starts at $27k with the Touring (probably the volume model) at $29k. Right in line with where the LaCrosse should be.

The Accord is significantly bigger (interior volume) than the Malibu.

Why can't the "stretched" NG EPSII Malibu have unique styling and be called Impala?

I seriously doubt the NG LaCrosse will directly target or compete against the Avalon. That is Chevrolet's flagship sedan's market.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree to a point. The Malibu (and a theorectical LWB version) have the mid-large FWD sedan market covered.

A RWD Chevy sedan is another market entirely, and could be a good thing.

A new FWD Impala would be a plague on the Malibu, and as a "decontented" Buick, would smack of old-fashioned badge-engineering.

I'd rather see them fleet the current car to the end and put the Impala name on a shelf for a while. With or without the RWD zeta .

Lucerne dropped from Buick

Updated, restyled, DTS sized, Lucerne takes place at the top of the Chevy lineup as a Caprice; has HF3.6 and Vortec 5.3 as engines

Buick gets EPII LaCrosse, bases around 29k

Buick get Zeta Park Ave, bases around 38k

Chevy gets Alpha based Impala sedan and coupe with Ecotec4 and HF2.8

Buick gets Alpha based Riviera coupe and Riviera convertible with HF3.6 and HF3.6DI

Pontiac gets Alpha based G6 coupe, sedan and convertible with Ecotec Turbo and HF3.6DI for GXP version + 6-speed manuals

[Sixty8panther]

This article is where I got my info from for my gloomy post in the NG LaCrosse thread. The Great Bob Lutz, it seems, has been overruled as GM product czar by some other forces within the company. And it is a sad day. I see no reason why a modern RWD Impala cannot be offered with a wide range of powertrain options... 3.6L DI, hybrid, diesel, and AFM gas V8s. Heck, a clean, torque-rich diesel engine could sell itself if the price isn't outragous.

This whole thing stinks. I have a sneaking suspicion Mr. Lutz' product planning power is being usurped and I don't like it... because he's a genuine car guy, the type of guy who has been missing from GM since their heyday in the 60's and 70's. If Bob Lutz loses, everyone who cares about GM's renewed success loses a bit, as well.

CAFE has already sent a chill through the industry, and compliance is still 12 years away. The auto enthusiast is being told to sit down and shut up, and take our minicar medicine... for the Congress knows what we should be driving better than we do. I'd like to see a list of all vehicles owned by every congressperson and senator, just to see how hypocritical they are.

[Camino LS6]

Lucerne dropped from Buick

Updated, restyled, DTS sized, Lucerne takes place at the top of the Chevy lineup as a Caprice; has HF3.6 and Vortec 5.3 as engines

Buick gets EPII LaCrosse, bases around 29k

Buick get Zeta Park Ave, bases around 38k

Chevy gets Alpha based Impala sedan and coupe with Ecotec4 and HF2.8

Buick gets Alpha based Riviera coupe and Riviera convertible with HF3.6 and HF3.6DI

Pontiac gets Alpha based G6 coupe, sedan and convertible with Ecotec Turbo and HF3.6DI for GXP version + 6-speed manuals

Some of that sounds ok to me, but I just don't think a big FWD car belongs anywhere but Buick.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well, it's a plan that would make decent business sense for GM, but also keep the brands unique and not stepping on each other's toes.

Gets a few more years out of the really good G-body platform, keeps the volume up that would be lost by the death of the Lucerne and DTS.

Spreads Alpha around fairly

Keeps the RWD fans happy

Makes Buick viable again

Makes Pontiac relevant again.

[Camino LS6]

Well, it's a plan that would make decent business sense for GM, but also keep the brands unique and not stepping on each other's toes.

Gets a few more years out of the really good G-body platform, keeps the volume up that would be lost by the death of the Lucerne and DTS.

Spreads Alpha around fairly

Keeps the RWD fans happy

Makes Buick viable again

Makes Pontiac relevant again.

Perhaps.

But nothing on that list would appeal to me personally.

[VenSeattle]

Umm Ven, Northie said NG Malibu - not the current car.

Not quite... His argument has been bouncing back and forth between comparisons of the current (2008) Malibu in size and the current Impala. In the process, he's attempting to justify using the NG Malibu to replace both the current Malibu and the Impala.

In addition, the Malibu's wheelbase is already longer than the Impala's. Both have the same rear legroom, hip and shoulder room are better in the Impala, but again, EPII will be wider, which will address those issues. Headroom is the same in the front and only .4 inch less for the Malibu in the rear. The Impala does have a bigger trunk.

The Impala suffers a lot from being on W-Body. HUGE overhangs and not much legroom for its length because of a shorter-than-Epsilon wheelbase.

Therefore, I am now convinced there is no need for a FWD Impala, and perhaps any sort of Impala. The current Malibu is already as good in legroom and only lacks shoulder and hip room because of its lack of width. If EPII is wider and keeps the same wheelbase, it will have the same interior room as the current Impala.

Is there really a need for something bigger than that? It is probably possible to make EPII even longer and stretch the Malibu if there really is a need, but the EPII Malibu should be spacious enough for 95% of buyers, I would think. The Avalon does offer more legroom than either of them, but again I think that is more of a Toyota Buick.

My argument is there is a need in Chevrolet's line-up for a car the size of the current (2008) Malibu, and the current (2008) Impala. Chevrolet needs a midsize sedan and a large sedan... not one sedan to cover both markets. If the NG Malibu becomes "Impala-sized" then what will fill the gap between the Cobalt and the Impala-sized Malibu? Seriously... could you picture Chevrolet's current line-up without the Malibu? It would be ridiculous. Not everyone wants a large sedan. Not everyone wants a mid-sized sedan.

[Drew Dowdell]

Perhaps.

But nothing on that list would appeal to me personally.

Oh... I forgot it's all about you... :AH-HA_wink:

an alpha G6 coupe with the HF3.6 and 6-speed manual wouldn't appeal to you?

[ocnblu]

It would sure as hell appeal to me, even with a turbo DI Ecotec... but that's assuming Pontiac and Buick are even around by the time Alpha's home continent is decided. I am not optimistic right now, and I feel a major shoe is about to drop regarding GM.

[Camino LS6]

Oh... I forgot it's all about you... :AH-HA_wink:

an alpha G6 coupe with the HF3.6 and 6-speed manual wouldn't appeal to you?

I knew that one was coming.

Oh well, I set myself up for it.

But, to answer the question, not really.

I really don't want anything smaller than a GTO. I can see that car being a good thing generally, and I'd support the decision to build it, but I want something bigger.

[Z-06]

Had Mr. Fly got time for writing what we discussed with GM at the Miami Autoshow.

I specifically asked Mr. Clarke about the prospects of a RWD car. He said to keep the minds and eyes open for what to expect in the near future. He did indirectly mean that there are other RWD coming apart from Camaro, G8 with more focus on the enthusiasts. Now if they are Zetas or Alphas it is anybody's guess.

To me spending the stratospheric amount of money on the Zeta does not make sense if it can only feed a Camaro, Holdens, Middle East Chevies, and limited G8s. That platform needs one money maker with a volume close to 250k.

[Z-06]

I knew that one was coming.

Oh well, I set myself up for it.

But, to answer the question, not really.

I really don't want anything smaller than a GTO. I can see that car being a good thing generally, and I'd support the decision to build it, but I want something bigger.

Camino, I totally understand that you WANT something bigger. But do you NEED something bigger?

[turbo200]

My argument is there is a need in Chevrolet's line-up for a car the size of the current (2008) Malibu, and the current (2008) Impala. Chevrolet needs a midsize sedan and a large sedan... not one sedan to cover both markets. If the NG Malibu becomes "Impala-sized" then what will fill the gap between the Cobalt and the Impala-sized Malibu? Seriously... could you picture Chevrolet's current line-up without the Malibu? It would be ridiculous. Not everyone wants a large sedan. Not everyone wants a mid-sized sedan.

the question is does the current impala succeed because it is viewed as a large sedan by consumers, or a more spacious alternative to Camry and Accord at even lower price levels [excluding discounts the Impala is cheaper than Camry]. Impala offers a small discernible amount more space than Camry and Accord, so the situation is the competition's midsize cars are competing and selling way more than Chevy's "full-size" car. Combined interior volume for Impala is barely larger than Accord, I'm not sure about Camry. Sales-wise, the current gen Impala sells less than one third of what Camry and Accord sell, retail sales-wise.

So the ultimate issue is why do ~120k consumers choose Impala[based on ~270k annual sales, and 57% fleet to retail ratio, it's that high people].....I'd say rebates and bigger size [practicality and known reliability rounding out the back end] are the main draw, but the Impala isn't a full-size car in the sense of Taurus, so it's really more like a large midsize car.....and it's priced like a midsize car....how many GM employees and families of employees also choose the Impala because it's the cheapest and largest and most known of the GM sedans? those sales are plentiful and are not counted as fleet.

i'd say imo, the impala sells well because it's cheap and roomy, but it's really just a roomy midsize sedan, like Accord. It offers a punchy powertrain, and gets decent economy. it's a settling choice, and I can't imagine why anyone would make an argument for buying one when thier are so many more compelling choices out there. that aside, I think a replacement Malibu that were as large on the inside as the current Impala is, and priced a little higher than the current Malibu, with a punchy and economical and refined 4 cyl, would capture most of the buying public's admiration of the Impala.

[Camino LS6]

Camino, I totally understand that you WANT something bigger. But do you NEED something bigger?

Need isn't really a factor: I won't accept anything smaller.

If forced to, I will just stick to older cars - or a competitor's model that delivers what I want.

My Silverado covers the "need" part of things nicely.

[Northstar]

Give me a break. You know just as I do there are official "class" sizes and how they are determined. If you choose to ignore them, that's your choice.

For those who don't know...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses

Now...

The 2008 Malibu is:

Interior Volume: 95 cu. ft.

Cargo Volume: 16 cu. ft.

Combined Interior Volume: 111 cu. ft.

Length: 191.8 in

Width: 70.3 in

Wheelbase: 112.3 in

Curb Weight: 3,536 lbs

The 2008 Impala is:

Interior Volume: 105 cu. ft.

Cargo Volume: 19 cu. ft.

Combined Interior Volume: 124 cu. ft.

Length: 200.4 in

Width: 72.9 in.

Wheelbase: 110.5 in.

Curb Weight: 3711 lbs.

So NO! The interior volume of the 2008 Malibu and 2008 Impala are NOT the same size.

I never said that the interior volume of the Malibu and Impala were the same, I said headroom and legroom in both the front and rear were quite comparable, and they are; I also said that if the Malibu were wider (as EPII will be), that it would be the same size as the current Impala. The Accord offers similar front hip and shoulder room a the Impala, though the Impala beats it in rear hip/shoulder room.

Headroom (front/rear) Malibu: 39.4/37.2 Impala: 39.4/37.8

Legroom (front/rear) Malibu: 42.2/37.6 Impala: 42.3/37.6

Shoulder room (front/rear) Malibu: 55.9/53.9 Impala: 58.7/58.6

Hip room (front/rear) Malibu: 53.0/52.1 Impala: 56.4/57.2

EPII is only going to get so wide, so I don't see two EPII sedans differing much in hip and shoulder room offered. That difference in the two cars will be gone, unless there are to be multiple track widths that vary by a good amount.

Putting the Malibu back on a shorter wheelbase a la the original Epsilon Malibu will likely hurt its legroom and make it uncompetitive with the Accord and Camry in that respect.

The Accord is significantly bigger (interior volume) than the Malibu.

Why can't the "stretched" NG EPSII Malibu have unique styling and be called Impala?

I seriously doubt the NG LaCrosse will directly target or compete against the Avalon. That is Chevrolet's flagship sedan's market.

Like the Impala, the Accord is only significantly bigger than the Malibu in terms of interior volume because of the Malibu's lack of width. Legroom is actually slightly in favor of the Malibu, but the Accord wins by a large margin in hip and shoulder room, and by an inch or two in headroom both front and rear. If the Malibu were as wide as the Accord, the Accord would not have much more interior volume.

I proposed a stretched NG Malibu without unique styling because I think it's pretty clear that the NG Malibu will be big enough for current Impala buyers, and the market is rather small for those people who want something bigger than that. Not giving it unique styling would save a lot of money that could be better used elsewhere.

I see the LaCrosse being cross-shopped with the Avalon. The Avalon is actually shorter than the current LaCrosse, though bigger inside because of W-Body's inefficient hard points. I also expect pricing to be similar between the two models. Avalon and the ES are the main targets for an entry-level Buick luxury sedan, IMO, along with the TL.

Lucerne dropped from Buick

Updated, restyled, DTS sized, Lucerne takes place at the top of the Chevy lineup as a Caprice; has HF3.6 and Vortec 5.3 as engines

Buick gets EPII LaCrosse, bases around 29k

Buick get Zeta Park Ave, bases around 38k

Chevy gets Alpha based Impala sedan and coupe with Ecotec4 and HF2.8

Buick gets Alpha based Riviera coupe and Riviera convertible with HF3.6 and HF3.6DI

Pontiac gets Alpha based G6 coupe, sedan and convertible with Ecotec Turbo and HF3.6DI for GXP version + 6-speed manuals

I think thats too many Alpha vehicles. Not all three brands need one. Alpha is also way too small for the Impala. You want Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Impala, and Caprice with Aveo<Cobalt~=~Impala<Malibu<Caprice? (going by size of the platforms).

I think it makes more sense to make a Riveria off of Zeta than Alpha. Just make it a 2-door Park Ave.

What platform is the Caprice riding on? G-Body?

The Buicks I agree with, and I expect that's what's going to happen.

Well, it's a plan that would make decent business sense for GM, but also keep the brands unique and not stepping on each other's toes.

Gets a few more years out of the really good G-body platform, keeps the volume up that would be lost by the death of the Lucerne and DTS.

Spreads Alpha around fairly

Keeps the RWD fans happy

Makes Buick viable again

Makes Pontiac relevant again.

The volume lost by the Lucerne and DTS should be made up by their Zeta replacements, no? Also, I'm fairly confident GM has gotten more than their money's worth out of G-Body.

As I said above, I think it spreads Alpha around too much.

Not quite... His argument has been bouncing back and forth between comparisons of the current (2008) Malibu in size and the current Impala. In the process, he's attempting to justify using the NG Malibu to replace both the current Malibu and the Impala.

I don't see how I can make my argument without comparing the current cars. As I have said several times, the Malibu is really the same size as the Impala except for being significantly narrower. EPII will be wider and thus the NG Malibu will likely be very similar in size to the current Impala. That is my argument. I'm not arguing anything about the current Malibu and Impala, I'm just stating facts about the two to make my argument.

My argument is there is a need in Chevrolet's line-up for a car the size of the current (2008) Malibu, and the current (2008) Impala. Chevrolet needs a midsize sedan and a large sedan... not one sedan to cover both markets. If the NG Malibu becomes "Impala-sized" then what will fill the gap between the Cobalt and the Impala-sized Malibu? Seriously... could you picture Chevrolet's current line-up without the Malibu? It would be ridiculous. Not everyone wants a large sedan. Not everyone wants a mid-sized sedan.

There isn't anything needed between the Cobalt and NG Malibu. You seem to keep forgetting the fact that the current Malibu and current Impala only differ in terms of width. I don't see how adding width to the Malibu would disqualify it for anyone shopping for a family sedan. If anything, it would make it an option for the wider people out there who really need the extra width afforded by the Impala. I don't see anyone who doesn't need the extra width disqualifying the car because it has more width than they need.

If you look at the two main targeted competitors, Honda and Toyota, you see that they have a Cobalt sized car and a Malibu sized car. Toyota also offers a car similar in size to what a stretched Malibu would be, but it doesn't sell that well. GM isn't rolling in cash like Toyota, so it makes more sense from a business standpoint to just stretch the NG Malibu.

-----------------------------------------------

Another thing to consider is this:

As turbo pointed out, the Impala is extremely cheap for its size. Unless pricing is going to stay the same and continue to almost directly overlap with the Malibu, the car will appeal to less people. How many people are going to buy an Impala that starts at $27k and moves into the mid $30k range like the Avalon? I don't think too many. This is why this market is better covered by the LaCrosse.

[wildcat]

that's assuming Pontiac and Buick are even around by the time Alpha's home continent is decided. I am not optimistic right now, and I feel a major shoe is about to drop regarding GM.

What are you thinking will happen, ocnblu?

[ocnblu]

I just feel a heart-stopping chill coming and I am dreading it.

[Camino LS6]

Would that be a Bavarian chill?

[ocnblu]

...could be... :AH-HA_wink:

[VenSeattle]

We’ll have to agree to completely disagree and see what GM decides. My argument strictly stands like this:

Chevrolet should be competing against Avalon, Maxima, Azera, & Taurus. Those buyers would consider a $32k FWD Impala if it’s class-leading.

The NG Malibu should not be used to cover the FWD mid-sized and premium large FWD segments. Many full-line mainstream brands have separate entries for the two segments:

Ford has Fusion & Taurus

Toyota has Camry & Avalon

Nissan has Altima & Maxima

Then there are the non-full line-up brands:

Honda has the compact Civic and large Accord

Mazda only has the midsized Mazda6

Mercury has the Milan & Sable

Volkswagen has the large-compact Jetta & midsized Passat

Hyundai has Sonata & Azera

Kia Optima & Amanti

Finally, we have Chevrolet’s greatest threat and competition (sarcasm) Dodge:

Dodge has the midsize Avenger and large-ish RWD Charger

The above vehicles will all be cross-shopped by that one NG Malibu. Why would the best selling Brand in the US try to produce only one FWD sedan to successfully compete against all of the above FWD vehicles? People can nit-pick why they don’t like each of the sedans above, but would a single large FWD Malibu be able to target the varied segments any better?

The result would be a compromised vehicle trying to cover almost $20k of market territory ($17k Fusions to $37k Avalons and Passats.) It’ll be too big (for compact/midsize buyers), and too heavy (in 4-cyl form.) A RWD premium mid-sized Impala would be too expensive to assist as an alternative to the “large Malibu” and just cover the upper spectrum which may or may not consider it since it’s not a full-sized sedan.

I personally believe a focused midsized sedan on Epsilon II spanning $19k-$27k and a focused premium large sedan on Epsilon II spanning $25k-$33k would be far more beneficial to Chevrolet. If GM’s fortunes turn around after a few years, GM could add a RWD premium Chevrolet sedan as a halo vehicle (Caprice SS or what ever.) But first, Chevrolet needs to successfully compete in the existing mainstream segments that Chevrolet’s competitors currently dominate.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ven, as much as I agree with you <and I do>, the Maxima, Avalon, Sable, and Taurus aren't exactly lighting up the sales charts. Heck, I think the Lucerne outsells each of them except the Taurus.

Edit: Though I think that supports my argument that the Lucerne would make a better Chevy than Buick.

[Camino LS6]

Huge FWD sedans are fading in the market generally, and that's not a bad thing.

I think GM needs to have one though, at least for a while. I just think it should be a Buick and not a Chevy.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Edit: Though I think that supports my argument that the Lucerne would make a better Chevy than Buick.

I wonder can Epsilon II get as big as the G-body Lucerne.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Toyota.vs.GM

[vonVeezelsnider]

@ Oldsmoboi- Correction- I think it's only the 300 that outsells the Lucerne, not the Taurus.

[Camino LS6]

@ Oldsmoboi- Correction- I think it's only the 300 that outsells the Lucerne, not the Taurus.

Telling bit, that.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think thats too many Alpha vehicles. Not all three brands need one. Alpha is also way too small for the Impala. You want Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Impala, and Caprice with Aveo<Cobalt~=~Impala<Malibu<Caprice? (going by size of the platforms).

I picture the Alpha chevy to be about the same size as the current Malibu but in a sporty form. Kinda like if Dodge had kept the Intrepid in production while simultaneously bringing out the Charger. Appeal to two sides of the same market. You'll notice I made the list up so that each body style of Alpha is shared between two brands to cover volume issues.

I think it makes more sense to make a Riveria off of Zeta than Alpha. Just make it a 2-door Park Ave.

Are there any other 2 door Zetas out there that aren't Camaro? A two door Zeta for just Buick is an awfully large commitment for what would inevitably be a low volume car.

What platform is the Caprice riding on? G-Body?

The Buicks I agree with, and I expect that's what's going to happen.

The volume lost by the Lucerne and DTS should be made up by their Zeta replacements, no? Also, I'm fairly confident GM has gotten more than their money's worth out of G-Body.

Actually, I'm hoping not. What I want to see happen is the DTS and Lucerne replacements move upmarket substantially. Lucerne bases at 26k today. On zeta they should add at least 10k to that. Yeah, GM will take a hit in volume, but that's what happens on a 10k jump in price. There should be no excuses made for a 36k base Zeta Buick.

Yes, I'm suggesting that Chevy take the G-body over as the Caprice. Assuming they improve the engine and transmission, it should have no trouble meeting the numbers Buick + Cadillac put out.

As I said above, I think it spreads Alpha around too much.

The volume has to come from somewhere.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Three-words GM: Bad f@#king choice.

You either do it right, or you don't do it at all. Point blank. Case closed.

It has been pointed out that drive-wheels make little to no difference at all in fuel economy. So what are the teams of myriad engineers on top of engineers doing wrong to make the front-drive platform excel in terms of fuel economy over the rear-drive one?

Better yet, why is this still even an issue? I thought GM worked through the fuel economy road block over three months ago and that it was all rosy-red, that the next-generation Impala will be rear-drive and on Zeta. So c'mon. Now it's front-drive again? Trying to predict what next-generation Impala we wind up with is just like trying to predict the frigging weather.

The Malibu sells. That much is given, I know. I've seen it. There was a red LTZ setting on a local lot and it was gone in three days. I believe the car is more than capable for taking over for the current Impala when it finally does everyone a favor and kicks the bucket. It's a quality car. Even the idiots at Moron Trend admit it's a better car with a better value and better quality than the Accord. People are taking notice. And what's to say that current Impala owners won't trade up into the new 'Bu, anyway?

And screw the idea of having a front-drive Impala and then a Zeta "Caprice SS" specialty model on top of that. That theoretical "Caprice SS" should have an Impala badge on it and not be a specialty model in the first place. The thought of a front-drive Impala should have never been discussed in the first place. It's time the thinking part of GM starts overpowering the non-thinking side 100 percent of the time. Not just most of the time.

Edited December 28, 2007 by YellowJacket894

[Drew Dowdell]

Huge FWD sedans are fading in the market generally, and that's not a bad thing.

I think GM needs to have one though, at least for a while. I just think it should be a Buick and not a Chevy.

If it's a fading market, why would you leave it in a brand that you're trying to move upscale?

[VenSeattle]

Ven, as much as I agree with you <and I do>, the Maxima, Avalon, Sable, and Taurus aren't exactly lighting up the sales charts. Heck, I think the Lucerne outsells each of them except the Taurus.

Edit: Though I think that supports my argument that the Lucerne would make a better Chevy than Buick.

I see this segment growing since the Accord has joined the full-size market. Either the Accord's sales will drop, or it's a testament that Baby-boomers and current families want more space. New and growing Families will always need practical midsized sedans, but families who can afford more will want comfortable surroundings without losing practicality.

Don't forget the Maxima and Avalon are getting old and are being replaced/repositioned with the next generation. Where will Chevrolet stand then? Chevrolet's competitors aren't standing still.

I agree a vehicle like the Lucerne would make a good flagship Chevrolet.

[Drew Dowdell]

@ Oldsmoboi- Correction- I think it's only the 300 that outsells the Lucerne, not the Taurus.

Could be, I know the 300 did, but I was pulling from the list presented to me of FWD big cars.

[Camino LS6]

Unfortunately, there are more nefarious agendas behind this than simply which would sell better or get better mileage.

These agendas endanger zeta as a whole, as well as the the brands themselves.

If this happens, look for a very boring (and I think short) future for GM as a whole.

[Drew Dowdell]

I see this segment growing since the Accord has joined the full-size market. Either the Accord's sales will drop, or it's a testament that Baby-boomers and current families want more space. New and growing Families will always need practical midsized sedans, but families who can afford more will want comfortable surroundings without losing practicality.

Don't forget the Maxima and Avalon are getting old and are being replaced/repositioned with the next generation. Where will Chevrolet stand then? Chevrolet's competitors aren't standing still.

I agree a vehicle like the Lucerne would make a good flagship Chevrolet.

I think large FWD cars will be a common 2nd choice when people come down from their SUV/CUV high.

[VenSeattle]

I think large FWD cars will be a common 2nd choice when people come down from their SUV/CUV high.

Honestly, that's a very good point.

[regfootball]

some of this needs to be cleared up. first off, the accord may statistically be full sized now but the truth is it still has a tight feel to it in some ways. the extra width is welcome and beneficial, however, it really was making up for the fact that it was too narrow before. Plus, the new accord has a low roof and constricting windshield angle.

the current impala which i cross shopped when i got my 500 a couple years ago is also deficient in the cabin. rear leg space is tight and front seat space is tight due to wheel intrusion and low dash and firewall. however, it doesn't feel dreadfully cramped. It just feels like a semi roomy midsize. The previous impala actually felt bigger due to the more upright roof and such. Trunk space is ok.

the car with major space transgressions is the new Malibu. As pointed out above, its highly deficient in width and you really do feel it. It's inadequate in width for a midsize and that is in spite of it matching up in leg room and such with the impala. The new BU's shape is a knockout, but it's a bitch getting in and out of that car and getting around the steering wheel and dash requires big time olga korbut moves. the new BU feels constricted in many ways despite the stats. Rear leg space might be the only area where the new Bu has ay sort of feeling of space. The roof and A pillar bear down on you like the roof has already been crushed in a crash. Coupled with the girth deficiency, it makes a like sized car like the Mazda6 feel limo like. The new Malibu's trunk is even nearly as bad as the accords, not very high, not much usable width, and much of it is hard to access under the rear window.

of course, i am spoiled by my 500(taurus) because it gives you adequate room in most ways. I actually wish it was 2" wider and had a bit more knee space in front, but as sedans go, the taurus is actually a usable car. Most other sedans are not. The only other sedans I think provide adequate space that I can think of right now are maybe the DTS, the galant, and the 300. Pretty much nearly all other sedans lack real space or the feel of it (and this includes Lucerne).

funny, but the 86 taurus had packaging figured out. spacious cabin, good trunk. GM never has mastered sedan packaging. big overhangs, low seating, lack of leg room. Perhaps the 92 bonne was the one other GM sedan I can recall aside from the late 80's early 90's caddies that were comfortable sedans and efficient in their packaging. scratch that, the catera was well done in terms of space. i expect the g8 to feel spacious like the catera did.

to get back to the point.....the malibu needs to gain space next time around. it is a small cramped mid sizer, but can be excused because of looks. the impala is ok if iits shopped as a midsizer, but the next impala needs to be bigger t match the taurus and 300 in accommodations. I still think the holden caprice would be a nice chevy caprice here. I think a RWD impala would be nice too. But a large FWD may work if done right. I think for cops and cabs chevy needs to have something available with space and that can take a lot of pounding .

taurus sales have crapped due to looks, marketing confusion, and pricing...and the edge and taurus-x cannibalizing sedans. judging by the wows i get when people ride in my car, they love the space. if the car was attractive and the price was adjusted, the large size formula would work, and i think chevy has the potential to understand this segment better than anyone.

Edited December 28, 2007 by regfootball

[smk4565]

Chevy effed themselves because the malibu is so small. to make the impala RWD only would kill sales on the larger car.

Simply put, chevy didn't plan right for their larger sedan. The impy should be larger than it is now, and should either be FWD or RWD/AWDoption. instead, impy is mid sized and front drive only.

The Malibu has the same dimensions as the Camry. The Camry has been #1 selling car in the US for 9 of the last 10 years, the Malibu is exactly the size it should be. Not to mention the Camry sells elsewhere in the world also, not just North America like the Malibu.

If the Impala gets larger than it is now, it will be bigger than a Mercedes S600, is that a size car many people buy? The only cars bigger than the Impala under $60,000 are the DTS, Lucerne, Grand Marquis, Town Car (Crown Vic is fleet only now) and all have declining sales.

The W-body doesn't use space well, even the Malibu has a longer wheelbase than the Impala. They could even shrink the Impala and gain a ton of interior room on a decent platform.

[Camino LS6]

Here's the part that makes no sense: The Camaro is underway at Oshawa already, the Impala was to be the volume anchor for zeta production there. The Plant has an exclusive agreement to build the Camaro and any car named Impala. So what the hell happens now at Oshawa?

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Here's the part that makes no sense: The Camaro is underway at Oshawa already, the Impala was to be the volume anchor for zeta production there. The Plant has an exclusive agreement to build the Camaro and any car named Impala. So what the hell happens now at Oshawa?

I think Oshawa can make both RWD and FWD on the same assembly line.

[smk4565]

If the Impala stays similar to it's current size and remains front drive and moves to the $27-34k price range, they would make Buick obsolete. Which to me isn't a bad thing. Buick doesn't even have a sedan now that bases at $27k, Buicks are priced closer to Toyotas or Fords. A front drive Impala does run a risk of being a sales dud like the Azera or 500/Taurus.

CAFE is no excuse for not making rear wheel drive. The CTS and Malibu get the same gas mileage, even though the CTS has 52 more hp. So how does rear drive hurt gas mileage? The BMW 535d gets better mileage than an Aveo or Camry Hybrid, while posting a 6.2 second 0-60 time, so again, rear drive doesn't mean bad mileage.

If the Impala goes front drive it should be because it fits the product mix with Pontiac/Buick having rear drive, but Pontiac is a rental brand basically, and Buick has one foot in the grave.

[VenSeattle]

Here's the part that makes no sense: The Camaro is underway at Oshawa already, the Impala was to be the volume anchor for zeta production there. The Plant has an exclusive agreement to build the Camaro and any car named Impala. So what the hell happens now at Oshawa?

If I had it my way, Chevrolet would have both a FWD large sedan (Epsilon II based or G-platform) and a RWD flagship sedan. I'm strictly going off the impression from the articles indicating GM is trying to decide between one or the other. I've considered the exact same question and can only come up with the same conclusion as TvsG. Oshawa will continue to produce both FWD & RWD.

[Camino LS6]

I think Oshawa can make both RWD and FWD on the same assembly line.

True, but that doesn't help zeta be profitable.

This would endanger all of zeta, including Camaro.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

True, but that doesn't help zeta be profitable.

This would endanger all of zeta, including Camaro.

The end will be near for Sigma :AH-HA_wink: .

[Camino LS6]

The end will be near for Sigma :AH-HA_wink: .

It already is.

Which makes this even more wrong.

[OshKoshBerJosh]

I read somewhere that the new CAFE numbers will begin to rachet up in 2011, reaching the 35mpg number by 2020. If this information is correct, then steps need to be taken now to begin to meet these tougher requirements.

the Impala that exists today does not sell on the virtues of its RWD predecessors. As other people have mentioned, it is seen as an alternative to midsize cars such as the Camry and the Accord. Chevy and GM should work on strengthening the virtues that convince 120,000 + people to purchase Impalas each year while also fixing the deficits (average interior, overhang issues, frumpy styling) that keep others away.

The market for larger FWD sedans still exists, so long as they are not priced in the near-luxury realm (think over 30k), and as another person pointed out, this segment is likely to grow as the SUV market shrinks. This is exactly what the Impala represents today.

[Camino LS6]

What a sad state of affairs this all is.

I hope that those of us who actually like cars get one more good go at it before it all goes to crap.