Debate not yet settled, but Lutz thinks Impala will be FWD

[Drew Dowdell]

Link to Forbes

"My personal preference is large, rear-wheel-drive cars," says Lutz. "My business preference is doing what is right for the shareholder and the public, in light of upcoming regulation on fuel economy. If there's a mile or two difference in fuel economy, you go for the one with the better economy. That's where the internal debate [on the Impala]is now--no firm decision at this point, but my guess is that we will come down on the side of the front-drive car."

[vonVeezelsnider]

:(

[SuperSport623]

does that mean there wont be a zeta chevy at all? or that it just wont be called impala?

[Dsuupr]

Sounds like no Zeta Chevy. Probably better for their "green" image, but not so good with their enthusiast image. Remember, we are the ones that voted the people into office that made this change (even if you didn't vote for Bush, you most likley voted for those in the Congress).

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm kinda ok with this....though I think they need to hurry up and make a decision so the W-body can finally be put out to pasture.

Let Pontiac have the more performance oriented product and develop a FWD/AWD G-body replacement for Chevy, Saturn, and Buick.

[regfootball]

Chriminy. There is not a big problem with selling 40-50k a year with say, a holden Caprice here in the US. That would take care of the RWD big car crowd and would not hose up cafe much.

Chevy effed themselves because the malibu is so small. to make the impala RWD only would kill sales on the larger car.

Simply put, chevy didn't plan right for their larger sedan. The impy should be larger than it is now, and should either be FWD or RWD/AWDoption. instead, impy is mid sized and front drive only.

someone check, does the charger get the same mpg as say, the impala now or the lacrosse 3.6?

taurus could pick up those sales if it weren't unattractive.

Edited December 26, 2007 by regfootball

[frogger]

Wow I guess the current one will be around for quite a while if they haven't even decided what platform to go with yet.

[Robert Hall]

Wow I guess the current one will be around for quite a while if they haven't even decided what platform to go with yet.

Yeah...Avis won't care how long they keep the W coming..

[z28luvr01]

<sarcasm>

Because we all know that all RWD cars are gas guzzlers, just because they're RWD

</sarcasm>

Seriously, how many times do they have to make that stupid assumption? Consider all of this:

1) A FWD Impala WILL cannibalize the Malibu, which they've already made so much effort to market it as THE answer to the Japan Inc. midsizers. Thanks to the impressive push given to the new Malibu, the Impala right now seems like an afterthought. The early reslts are hugely promising, as the Malibu is doing well right out of the gate and the reviews are generally great. As word gets out about the car things will only get much better. Why do anything like, say, release a second FWD car of similar size and price, to disturb that momentum.

2) I won't disprove the "FWD=better MPG" argument because I've already done it, but I'll add that GM"s better hybrid system (in terms of increased MPG) is currently available on RWD vehicles and should translate to Zeta without too much trouble.

I had more arguments, but I'm honestly getting more and more upset as I type this. I'm starting to see a GM that's in the midst of a war with itself, which is taking away time that GM just doesn't have. There are two GMs right now:

1) The bold GM that gives us Zeta and multimode hybrid trucks, and is fast tracking the Volt to production

2) The tepid GM that is giving us FWD Impalas and microcars, and thinks rebadging is OK

If GM lets its tepid side win out, this company will get swallowed up by the competition by 2020. Mimmicking the competiton is something GM has never been good at. If they're to survive, GM needs to let its bolder side win out, and innovate its way to more efficient products that still engage the customers.

[Drew Dowdell]

Microcars may become a necessity

A Lucurne sized Impala, with proper packaging/styling/interior would probably sell reasonably well even as a FWDer

The hybrid system was developed to go into the 6-speed front drivers also

and wouldn't a Zeta impala be a "rebadge" of the G8 anyway?

[Northstar]

I fail to see how a 3800lb, 260HP 6-speed automatic RWD car will achieve worse MPG than a 3800lb, 260HP 6-speed automatic FWD car.

If all drivetrain choices are going to be based on what sort of fuel mileage they get, GM might as well eliminate all AWD cars, because AWD makes MPGs go down the tubes.

[regfootball]

i think if they keep the impy FWD but simply make it much larger than the malibu then there will be no conflict.

BU=4 cyl and 6, mid sized

Impy=6 cylinder and 8 large.

But I do think RWD and yes AWD add more driveline loss, but I doubt it's so much to cause a big diff in mpg, at least not for RWD.

Don't kid yourselves, what else it at work here.....if chevy gets RWD, what does Buick get? I think something in this has to do with the park avenue coming here, and guranteeing the success of the G8. Any RWD chevy may simply be a threat to the BPG group.

Personally, I think the malibu should be the larger midsize front driver and the Impy should be large RWD with a Caprice option.

I also feel the market has reached a point where all vehicle platforms should be designed and sold with AWD available on nearly all cars. For example, the G8 should have AWD ready to go at the start.

I believe in 10 years, AWD will be an expectation that at least half of all cars sold will have an on demand all wheel drive system. Available anywhere in just about any car.

Edited December 26, 2007 by regfootball

[FAPTurbo]

[VenSeattle]

Chevrolet must cover the mainstream/mass market. That is its primary role in GM's organization. For the past 20+ years GM has attempted to do this with 4-5 brands (Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Saturn, & Buick.) That must change. Chevrolet must successfully compete in this role for GM's other niche brands to define their own. The last cogs to the Chevrolet machine are the Camaro & new Impala.

The Malibu can now hold its own with other midsize vehicles. The Impala can finally become a suitable flagship sedan to compete against other mainstream flagship sedans. Currently, the Impala is priced between $21k-$28k. I believe the next Impala will be priced and positioned close to, if not directly against, the Avalon ($27k-$34k.) So the Impala, regardless if FWD or RWD, will not cannibalize Malibu sales because it will be more expensive and become a suitably premium vehicle for its intended mass market buyer.

Now consider this… the only mainstream RWD competitor to the Impala is the Charger. The next Impala must also hold its ground against the Avalon, Taurus, Azera, and Accord. Why not let Chevrolet handle the FWD/AWD competition, and allow Pontiac's G8 to exclusively contend with the Charger crowd? This is what will help Pontiac define itself within GM. This will also help Buick. With Chevrolet able to compete against Camry & Avalon, Buick will be able to target the LaCrosse against cars like the ES350, MKZ, Volvo S60, etc...

I think it's time for people yearning for a RWD Chevrolet sedan to "move-up" to a Pontiac or Buick. You want an enthusiast's car? GM has several brands redefining themselves to attract your attention.

[Drew Dowdell]

I fail to see how a 3800lb, 260HP 6-speed automatic RWD car will achieve worse MPG than a 3800lb, 260HP 6-speed automatic FWD car.

If all drivetrain choices are going to be based on what sort of fuel mileage they get, GM might as well eliminate all AWD cars, because AWD makes MPGs go down the tubes.

It won't. However, a 3800lb. FWD car can be larger than a RWD version because less weight is devoted to the powertrain.

Case in point.

Lucerne V6 is 4 lbs lighter than the base CTS. V8 Lucerne is 100lbs heavier.

Best example I can find of RWD being less efficient than FWD.

Chrysler 300 2.7 litre - 190hp SOHC - 4 speed auto - 3712 - 18/26

Buick Lucerne 3.8 Litre - 197hp OHV - 4speed auto - 3869 - 19/28

maybe it's that extra camshaft slowin the 300 down :AH-HA_wink:

[Drew Dowdell]

Chevrolet must cover the mainstream/mass market. That is its primary role in GM's organization. For the past 20+ years GM has attempted to do this with 4-5 brands (Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Saturn, & Buick.) That must change. Chevrolet must successfully compete in this role for GM's other niche brands to define their own. The last cogs to the Chevrolet machine are the Camaro & new Impala.

The Malibu can now hold its own with other midsize vehicles. The Impala can finally become a suitable flagship sedan to compete against other mainstream flagship sedans. Currently, the Impala is priced between $21k-$28k. I believe the next Impala will be priced and positioned close to, if not directly against, the Avalon ($27k-$34k.) So the Impala, regardless if FWD or RWD, will not cannibalize Malibu sales because it will be more expensive and become a suitably premium vehicle for its intended mass market buyer.

Now consider this… the only mainstream RWD competitor to the Impala is the Charger. The next Impala must also hold its ground against the Avalon, Taurus, Azera, and Accord. Why not let Chevrolet handle the FWD/AWD competition, and allow Pontiac's G8 to exclusively contend with the Charger crowd? This is what will help Pontiac define itself within GM. This will also help Buick. With Chevrolet able to compete against Camry & Avalon, Buick will be able to target the LaCrosse against cars like the ES350, MKZ, Volvo S60, etc...

I think it's time for people yearning for a RWD Chevrolet sedan to "move-up" to a Pontiac or Buick. You want an enthusiast's car? GM has several brands redefining themselves to attract your attention.

VenSeattle FTW

[z28luvr01]

Chevrolet shouldn't just mean green, it should mean value. The Impala was always nice because it meant you could get a big, well equipped car at a lower price than a Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, etc. It was the exception to the rule that you needed to spend more money to get a big car. The G8 needs to aim higher than the Charger; let the G8 be the one to give BMW's grief while the Impala does battle with Charger. Without a flagship RWD Impala, Chevrolet remains a company of throw-away cars and cheap trucks (Anomalies like the Camaro and Corvette excluded). A flagship RWD Impala gives people who want the power and sportiness of a Camaro/Corvette but are saddled with the need for a sedan. A flagship RWD Impala gives people something to trade up to at a Chevrolet dealer as opposed to a Honda or Toyota one. A flagship RWD Impala gives Chevrolet the ability to brag that their big car has more room and better mileage than the competition's SUVs. Most importantly, it gives enthusiasts like myself, people who sing GM's praises everywhere they go and try to get everyone they meet to buy GM, despite GM kicking sand in their collective face every chance they get, a reason to step up to a new car as opposed to just buying used B-bodies for the rest of their lives. Position the Impala as a high value car, the G8 as a cheap alternative to more expensive performance cars, the Buick as a premium alternative to other snooty college professor cars and there's no reason we can't have a RWD Impala. Besides, unless you are a rally enthusiast or live in the frigid white north, most people don't give a rat's butt about AWD anyway.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[ocnblu]

This article is where I got my info from for my gloomy post in the NG LaCrosse thread. The Great Bob Lutz, it seems, has been overruled as GM product czar by some other forces within the company. And it is a sad day. I see no reason why a modern RWD Impala cannot be offered with a wide range of powertrain options... 3.6L DI, hybrid, diesel, and AFM gas V8s. Heck, a clean, torque-rich diesel engine could sell itself if the price isn't outragous.

This whole thing stinks. I have a sneaking suspicion Mr. Lutz' product planning power is being usurped and I don't like it... because he's a genuine car guy, the type of guy who has been missing from GM since their heyday in the 60's and 70's. If Bob Lutz loses, everyone who cares about GM's renewed success loses a bit, as well.

CAFE has already sent a chill through the industry, and compliance is still 12 years away. The auto enthusiast is being told to sit down and shut up, and take our minicar medicine... for the Congress knows what we should be driving better than we do. I'd like to see a list of all vehicles owned by every congressperson and senator, just to see how hypocritical they are.

[VenSeattle]

A flagship RWD Impala gives people who want the power and sportiness of a Camaro/Corvette but are saddled with the need for a sedan.

Is there really a large enough market for that type of buyer to have an entire Chevrolet sedan dedicated to it?

A flagship RWD Impala gives people something to trade up to at a Chevrolet dealer as opposed to a Honda or Toyota one.

Is a RWD Impala what Honda and Toyota drivers want? They don't seem to want a Dodge Charger or Chrysler 300C? Why would they want a RWD Impala?

Without a flagship RWD Impala, Chevrolet remains a company of throw-away cars and cheap trucks (Anomalies like the Camaro and Corvette excluded). A flagship RWD Impala gives people who want the power and sportiness of a Camaro/Corvette but are saddled with the need for a sedan.

Throw away cars? Not if they are class-leading along side Honda and Toyota. Power and sportiness will contradict the family values and economy that a Chevrolet Flagship sedan requires to survive in today's large sedan market. Chevrolet needs a suitable competitor to such vehicles. Compromising other brands to cover markets where Chevrolet should thrive in and be strongest has been GM's greatest mistake for the past 20+ years. If Chevrolet could have both FWD & RWD large Family sedans, then I would agree with you, but it looks as if GM must choose between one or the other. Where RWD fails over FWD is cost of development and manufacturing. Zeta is expensive. A LWB Epsilon II will be less expensive yet still provide Chevrolet a "class-leading" vehicle for the large sedan market.

[ocnblu]

"Throw-away", meaning no chance of making the kind of emotional connection with the owner that has kept Impalas from the 60's, 70's and 90's alive and vibrant in so many people's hearts. I will wager that nobody will ever collect, or covet, a W-body Impala. They are just too soulless to warrant lasting love, and in that, they match Toyota and Honda. Edited December 27, 2007 by ocnblu

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm pretty indifferent on this one...

Naturally, I prefer RWD. BUT I DO NOT want Chevrolet to lose volume and sales just to satisfy a few enthusiasts like myself.

I'm fine with upgrading to a Pontiac or just buying a Camaro -or- maybe AWD Impala anyway.

THEN AGAIN: We could always have our cake and eat it too... Why not develop a new FWD Impala and import a few thousand RWD 'halo' sedans (Caprice, Bel Air, Biscayne, whatever)

Unlike the G8, conservative styling might serve a Chevy flagship well. To differentiate Pontiac give the G8 better styling, better materials and better driving characteristics/performance.

My main concern is that the FWD Impala will lose the "heritage cues" that were supposed to be so attractive on the RWD car. I hope this doesn't happen.

Edited December 27, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Robert Hall]

"Throw-away", meaning no chance of making the kind of emotional connection with the owner that has kept Impalas from the 60's, 70's and 90's alive and vibrant in so many people's hearts. I will wager that nobody will ever collect, or covet, a W-body Impala. They are just too soulless to warrant lasting love, and in that, they match Toyota and Honda.

True...like so many GMs, the Impala is a decent Avis rental, but nothing memorable...

[Northstar]

Thinking about this, I'm not sure if there's even a need for an Impala anymore. Honda has nothing above the Accord, the Avalon is really just a Toyota version of a Buick (hence it competes with the LaCrosse and Lucerne), Nissan has the Maxima but it 1) doesn't sell that well, and 2) is really more of a Pontiac competitor, IMO.

Perhaps for those wanting more room in the rear, they could make a new Malibu Maxx, but this time just make it on a longer wheelbase and keep a real trunk. A la the stretched 300. It would be more cost-efficient, the only question is whether or not it would sell well.

Is there really a need for a Chevy bigger than the Malibu, and if so, does it make sense to give it its own unique sheet metal and interior, or would that money be better spent elsewhere?

I do think the G8 and Zeta Buick can cover the RWD market, but I don't think it makes much of a difference if the Impala is also RWD.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It just occured to me...

Maybe this is where MT picked up the whiff of an Alpha car for Chevrolet.

Maybe the idea of a FWD Impala and RWD Alpha sedan is being kicked around to try and appease both enthusiasts and our dumb-assed legislators. Not to mention, an Alpha Chevy would probably spread costs around pretty well.

I'm not so sure I'm a fan of Alpha being given to Chevrolet. BUT if a Zeta sedan becomes exclusive to Pontiac, that might change things a bit.

This is especially true if the next gen Camaro moves to Alpha (Which has been rumored) and makes Zeta entirely Pontiac exclusive.

** By "exclusive" I mean exclusive to this part of the market. I would certainly hope that neither a Cadillac Zeta nor a Buick Zeta would be heavily cross shopped with a Chevrolet or Pontiac Zeta. If it is; GM hasn't differentiated the products and/or divisions well enough.**

Just some food for thought.

Edited December 27, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Is there really a need for a Chevy bigger than the Malibu, and if so, does it make sense to give it its own unique sheet metal and interior, or would that money be better spent elsewhere?

I think so...

AS the SUV market continues to erode/fragment, large cars will be a big beneficiary IMO. It might not be the boom that the SUV market experienced, but sales will be solid.

[ocnblu]

Malibu is too narrow and too cramped to be a true flagship. It is fine as a midsize car, but Chevrolet needs a bigger sedan. Chevrolet is a workhorse brand, always has been. A RWD large sedan is needed at Chevrolet as a service vehicle and a retail vehicle.

[Northstar]

It just occured to me...

Maybe this is where MT picked up the whiff of an Alpha car for Chevrolet.

Maybe the idea of a FWD Impala and RWD Alpha sedan is being kicked around to try and appease both enthusiasts and our dumb-assed legislators. Not to mention, an Alpha Chevy would probably spread costs around pretty well.

I'm not so sure I'm a fan of Alpha being given to Chevrolet. BUT if a Zeta sedan becomes exclusive to Pontiac, that might change things a bit.

This is especially true if the next gen Camaro moves to Alpha (Which has been rumored) and makes Zeta entirely Pontiac exclusive.

** By "exclusive" I mean exclusive to this part of the market. I would certainly hope that neither a Cadillac Zeta nor a Buick Zeta would be heavily cross shopped with a Chevrolet or Pontiac Zeta. If it is; GM hasn't differentiated the products and/or divisions well enough.**

Just some food for thought.

Perhaps, but an Alpha vehicle is smaller than a Malibu, much less an Impala. I'm not sure that's the same clientèle. The other thing about that is that there isn't much of a market for a Chevy Alpha coupe when you have the Camaro. Pontiac would have more of a market for the coupe (less cannibalization). The Camaro may well move to Alpha, however, as you said.

I think so...

AS the SUV market continues to erode/fragment, large cars will be a big beneficiary IMO. It might not be the boom that the SUV market experienced, but sales will be solid.

Does it need it's own sheet metal and interior, or can it be on a longer wheelbase than the normal Malibu and be called "Malibu Maxx" (or whatever)?

Malibu is too narrow and too cramped to be a true flagship. It is fine as a midsize car, but Chevrolet needs a bigger sedan. Chevrolet is a workhorse brand, always has been. A RWD large sedan is needed at Chevrolet as a service vehicle and a retail vehicle.

EPII will add width, though. I expect EPII to be as wide as the current Impala.

In addition, the Malibu's wheelbase is already longer than the Impala's. Both have the same rear legroom, hip and shoulder room are better in the Impala, but again, EPII will be wider, which will address those issues. Headroom is the same in the front and only .4 inch less for the Malibu in the rear. The Impala does have a bigger trunk.

The Impala suffers a lot from being on W-Body. HUGE overhangs and not much legroom for its length because of a shorter-than-Epsilon wheelbase.

Therefore, I am now convinced there is no need for a FWD Impala, and perhaps any sort of Impala. The current Malibu is already as good in legroom and only lacks shoulder and hip room because of its lack of width. If EPII is wider and keeps the same wheelbase, it will have the same interior room as the current Impala.

Is there really a need for something bigger than that? It is probably possible to make EPII even longer and stretch the Malibu if there really is a need, but the EPII Malibu should be spacious enough for 95% of buyers, I would think. The Avalon does offer more legroom than either of them, but again I think that is more of a Toyota Buick.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Impala has to stay FWD. They know they'll never sell 300K + of a RWD car.The next one needs to be a bit bigger to distance itself from the Malibu and ride on a more modern platform than the W body. With Buick and Pontiac pretty much out of the rental and fleet business (except for G6) Chevy needs a solid fleet car to sell to the goverment and sales reps of the world. If Malibu can take sales from competitors on the retail side and do well with the under 50 crowd a new Impala can be the fleet queen and appeal to the older crowd. It would be a lot easier to just import a Chevy version of Zeta for for the performance crowd.

[Northstar]

Impala has to stay FWD. They know they'll never sell 300K + of a RWD car.The next one needs to be a bit bigger to distance itself from the Malibu and ride on a more modern platform than the W body. With Buick and Pontiac pretty much out of the rental and fleet business (except for G6) Chevy needs a solid fleet car to sell to the goverment and sales reps of the world. If Malibu can take sales from competitors on the retail side and do well with the under 50 crowd a new Impala can be the fleet queen and appeal to the older crowd. It would be a lot easier to just import a Chevy version of Zeta for for the performance crowd.

What incentive does GM have to make a model just so it can be a fleet queen?

[Drew Dowdell]

I do think the G8 and Zeta Buick can cover the RWD market, but I don't think it makes much of a difference if the Impala is also RWD.

Consider this; The V6 G8 is going to base at 27k. There is not a lot of room between the 19k Malibu and G6 and a 27k G8. Cheapest Malibu V6 is 24.6k. Where would that leave the base Impala? 25.5k? I can already hear the gnashing of teeth when it comes with a HV3.5 standard.

[Northstar]

Consider this; The V6 G8 is going to base at 27k. There is not a lot of room between the 19k Malibu and G6 and a 27k G8. Cheapest Malibu V6 is 24.6k. Where would that leave the base Impala? 25.5k? I can already hear the gnashing of teeth when it comes with a HV3.5 standard.

Don't be surprised when it does come with the HV3.5 standard (see here).

I don't know where you put it, which again is why I'm not sure if it's needed at all now. The NG Malibu will be as big inside as the current Impala most likely, so the Impala would have to be HUGE and would offer more space than most people are even looking for.

[ocnblu]

That's all another FWD Impala will ever be... another fleet queen. I wish for something more.

[Drew Dowdell]

That's all another FWD Impala will ever be... another fleet queen. I wish for something more.

Why? Do you think the Accord is suddenly going to become an Avis special just because it has crossed over into full size status?

[CSpec]

Thinking about this, I'm not sure if there's even a need for an Impala anymore. Honda has nothing above the Accord, the Avalon is really just a Toyota version of a Buick (hence it competes with the LaCrosse and Lucerne), Nissan has the Maxima but it 1) doesn't sell that well, and 2) is really more of a Pontiac competitor, IMO.

Perhaps for those wanting more room in the rear, they could make a new Malibu Maxx, but this time just make it on a longer wheelbase and keep a real trunk. A la the stretched 300. It would be more cost-efficient, the only question is whether or not it would sell well.

Is there really a need for a Chevy bigger than the Malibu, and if so, does it make sense to give it its own unique sheet metal and interior, or would that money be better spent elsewhere?

I do think the G8 and Zeta Buick can cover the RWD market, but I don't think it makes much of a difference if the Impala is also RWD.

I agree with this. RWD is not necessary for this market, few non-enthusiasts know the difference, and those who do think it's something bad. Additionally, Chevy does not necessarily have to have a big cheap sedan. It would be nice to have something to compete with the Ford Taurus kind of market, but with Ford going down the tubes maybe it's not worth pursuing.

[z28luvr01]

The only option I can see working, albeit one that I'm not entirely thrilled with, is to have an EpII Impala in coupe and convertible form only, while Malibu stays a sedan. Basically, replicate what Pontiac has with the G6 variants (which I hope move to Alpha anyway) and what Toyota has with the Camry/Solara. Of course, I'd want the Impy to have different styling than the 'Bu.

[Robert Hall]

I agree with this. RWD is not necessary for this market, few non-enthusiasts know the difference, and those who do think it's something bad. Additionally, Chevy does not necessarily have to have a big cheap sedan. It would be nice to have something to compete with the Ford Taurus kind of market, but with Ford going down the tubes maybe it's not worth pursuing.

True...with the Crown Vic going to fleet only for '08, it's not like there is a huge market demanding cheap RWD full sizers...it's not 1970, after all. Pontiac will have the Charger market covered with the G8... I think GM does need a mainstream luxury sedan to compete with the 300, maybe from Buick? Cadillac has the premium market covered with the CTS/etc..

[knightfan26917]

I think it's time for people yearning for a RWD Chevrolet sedan to "move-up" to a Pontiac or Buick.

Wow ... I guess people like me (oh, WAIT ... I am VERY sorry, I forgot ... I am the ONLY one) are not wanted around here...because the idea that buying a Pontiac or Buick is a "move-up" seems like a backhanded slap in the face to those of us who are die-hard Ch#$r%*et fans.....

You want an enthusiast's car? GM has several brands redefining themselves to attract your attention.

They haven't so far....

As for the quote from Lutz ... good night shirt tail ... isn't this old news? We keep hearing about this going back'n'forth between "it will be FWD" ... to ... "no wait, it will be RWD" ... and back to ... "Oops, sorry. No can do. RWD cars don't drive in the snow at all ... only FWD cars move in the snow 100% flawlessly ... it'll be FWD."

*sighs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.lego.HO.model.MCs.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Somebody snitched on me" ... Barry Gordon ... 'Nuttin' For Christmas'

[VenSeattle]

Knightfan... No offense was meant, but it's a known fact that GM's hierarchy was originally designed and is being reorganized to allow for customer ascension among the brands. For GM's survival, overlap must be kept to a minimum. That's the reason behind my comment. Once again, no insults meant to Chevrolet Fans. There will be Impala SS's in the future, regardless if the Impala is FWD, RWD, or AWD... but in the same fashion as the originals... a trim-level on an otherwise bland family sedan.

Northstar... Chevrolet needs a large sedan above Malibu. The large sedan market is still pulling in 100,000's of sales. With the Accord and Taurus recently entering the market along with Avalon, Chevrolet needs to own this market, not Buick. Buick will not have a single model in the large-family-sedan category after 2011. Chevrolet needs to take this over and run with it.

The days of Toyota-branded vehicles competing with anything in GM's line-up but Chevrolets are numbered. I think this fact will become GM's greatest advantage over Toyota. Think about it.

[Northstar]

Northstar... Chevrolet needs a large sedan above Malibu. The large sedan market is still pulling in 100,000's of sales. With the Accord and Taurus recently entering the market along with Avalon, Chevrolet needs to own this market, not Buick. Buick will not have a single model in the large-family-sedan category after 2011. Chevrolet needs to take this over and run with it.

Define "large sedan."

Is the current Impala a "large sedan"? If so, the NG Malibu figures to be just as large on the inside. I still say make a longer wheel base version to accommodate the few that want even more legroom. The NG Malibu should be large enough for 90-95% of car buyers.

The Accord is not much larger than the current Malibu, and the Avalon not much larger than the Accord. A stretched NG Malibu would be just as big as the Accord. I also think the NG LaCrosse will compete nicely with the Avalon. The CTS starts at $32k, so I expect the LaCrosse to be sub-$30k. The Avalon starts at $27k with the Touring (probably the volume model) at $29k. Right in line with where the LaCrosse should be.

[I hope GMRULES again]

What incentive does GM have to make a model just so it can be a fleet queen?

300K sales a year

[z28luvr01]

300K sales a year

all of which will bring in zilch in terms of profits.

[Camino LS6]

I bet you guys are surprised that I haven't chimed-in on this yet.

The truth is, I'm not sure what the right move would be at this moment. I am sure that another FWD sedan larger than Malibu would be a mistake.

The word "hiatus" keeps coming to mind when I think of Impala.

As large GM sedans go, I could see Pontiac benefitting from being the only RWD offering for a while and Buick benefitting from being the only FWD offering for a while.

That said, a zeta-based Caprice (LWB) in somewhat limited production, could provide the step-up Chevy needs while not treading on Buick nor Pontiac. A value-priced RWD large sedan would have a ready market though not one that replaces the FWD Impala directly. A direct replacement would damage Malibu in an unacceptable way.

[Camino LS6]

Unfortunately, we live in a time when the tight focus of each brand requires that a rationing of models based on a given architecture be used.

How about this:

Zeta

Caddy: DTS/STS replacement on LWB version

Chevy: Camaro On its own dedicated WB, Impala/Caprice on LWB version with value-based equiptment levels offered in Sedan/Convertible form only.

Buick: Park Avenue on SWB with all the creature comforts, Riviera convertible

Pontiac: the G8 "family" all in the performance vein, with the only Sport Truck and Wagon offered on Zeta

EPII:

Buick: large FWD luxury sedan

Chevy/Saturn: Crossovers/Minivans

Alpha:

Pontiac: lineup of bodystyles - all performance

Chevy: small, value-priced coupe/sedan/vert

Buick: entry level compact luxury sedan

Caddy: premium small vert

EDIT: It's all a trade-off. Pontiac doesn't get a Firebird, Chevy doesn't get a Chevelle lineup, Buick doesn't get a Coupe...

[Northstar]

300K sales a year

But rental sales give very little profit. Again, it makes a lot more business sense to just make a stretched Malibu if the need for a very big FWD car is there. It would be extremely cheap to do and the rental companies wouldn't care.

[Drew Dowdell]

The rental sales themselves may not make a profit, but they keep the lights on in Oshawa for the retail sales. Plus retail sales for the Impala have been up recently. There is also the police market... not something to walk away from.

[regfootball]

a dire omission in the market right now for GM is cabs and cop cars, and really for that reason alone there should be a RWD biased chassis large car in Chevy's lineup. Now, should that car be cloned from the holden statesman or imported or whatever? Clearly, the charger and 300 are not all that cops want or they still wouldn't be buying crown vics. Much like Ford needs a crown vic replacement (HELLOOOOO....INTERCEPTOR) GM needs this value priced durable large car in their lineup as well. There is no way to argue against it. My stipulation is the car should simply be large and made from a chassis that can take major abuse. This is where the taurus / 500 fails for ford right now and I think an Eps2 would fail in this capacity as well. A RWD/AWD Zeta variant chassis would be the cake for a car like this for Chevy.

Aside from that I would be fine with a G8 pontiac and a Park Avenue Buick (with available AWD) on Zeta as GM's only other RWD cars, aside from Cadillac's premium and unique platforms.

Alpha should exist too for a Pontiac and Buick product also. Maybe we will see a chevy alpha (next solstice is rumored to be on alpha?), but chevy's mission is mainstream and value and most of Chevy's products aside from pickups and tahoes should be on simpler FWD/AWD platforms. You can cover most chevy products like this.....Malibu, Equinox, Cobalts, minivans, etc. Camaro deserves a RWD platform and I don't think a Camaro needs an AWD option. Corvette's market has evolved such that a higher level variant of the vette would benefit from performance AWD as an option but now we have XLR to share platform engineering with there.

long story short, cops and cabs are reason enough for chevy and ford to still fill the large RWD bias segment if their FWD bias platforms do not provide the function and utility and durability that is required. Hell Chevy could engineer a new line of light commercial vans on a large sedan platform and use that to amortize development.

GM is still not aggressive in product development. It seems as though they are still being way too tight fisted and stay out of too many segments, while Toyota keeps entering more segments every year. GM gives up segments they use to be huge in.

Edited December 27, 2007 by regfootball

[Northstar]

The rental sales themselves may not make a profit, but they keep the lights on in Oshawa for the retail sales. Plus retail sales for the Impala have been up recently. There is also the police market... not something to walk away from.

Still, the NG Malibu is going to be as big inside than the current Malibu it would seem. Why can't Oshawa produce the Malibu too? Why can't the NG Malibu sell as well as the Camry? Make a normal wheelbase and long wheelbase versions and make them at multiple factories. The problem is that resale value will be crap if they fleet a lot of them, so that is the problem that must be figured out. Perhaps the new Malibu can be a fleet queen in 5 years.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

NOOO!!!!! A stretched Malibu called Bel Rey or something, okay. But the front-drive full-size car is a dying market more or less, and we were all looking forward to Impala going back to rear-drive!

[Camino LS6]

Some around the net are calling this a done deal.

If true, it proves that there are still some &#036;h&#33;heads in power at GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

Some around the net are calling this a done deal.

If true, it proves that there are still some &#036;h&#33;heads in power at GM.

except as much as I would prefer a 2009 B-body like Impala, it most likely makes more business sense for it to be a decontented Lucerne.