US aid in Domestic automakers?

[Newbiewar]

Well, looking at Delphi... looking at UAW... looking at GM's north american financial situation... At what point is it a better financial decision for the government to aid the domestic automakers? The question, when GM, Ford, or Chyrsler file for Bankrupsy... how much will it cost the governement? How much will the unemployement tab run up? If the governement must foot the bill for 1 million employees that used to be making 60k a year for the last 15-20 years, how much will it cost them, (us Citizens)? How much will it cost the government(tax payers) to release GM of all its debt? I'm assuming we are talking about nearly 500 billion dollars might barely cover it all... just for GM... If they were to go bankrupt... And if that were the case, the Domestics started going under... then what realistically can we expect to see of the ecconomy? inflation? taxes? At what point is it a better financial decision for the government to aid the domestic automakers? And at what point is it too late? Where is that turning point Is it now? Is now the invenstment time the government needs to step in? or is it already a lost cause? Has GM been sleeping for too long, that they have already failed in the public's eye?

[daves87rs]

As much as I hate to say it...the government might want to think about it. If you look at the airline industry...lots of good jobs are being lost. The industry is falling apart, and is only going to get worst. As the goverment, would you rather spend now or spend later?

[CadillacCTS]

I was reading an article about 2 months ago that stated if GM were to go bankrupt that the entire US economy would crash. They also said that the government will eventually have to step in and help out with health care and pension costs.

[Newbiewar]

I was reading an article about 2 months ago that stated if GM were to go bankrupt that the entire US economy would crash.  They also said that the government will eventually have to step in and help out with health care and pension costs.

[post="29961"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess thats my question... What would it do to us as citizens... how crucial is GM to our ecconomy? Would the crash of GM make things similar to the great depression? or worse?

What would it do for us as citizens? What would todays dollar become without GM? What would the world be like? If the US ecconomy collapsed, we wouldnt be the worlds largest automotive industry any more... That would financially hurt many other countrys (japan & germany) and one bankruspy would probably send the other two US automakers down the same tubes if Americans stopped buying cars in the same portions...

when will the government step in? hopefully before its too late...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I guess thats my question... What would it do to us as citizens... how crucial is GM to our ecconomy? Would the crash of GM make things similar to the great depression? or worse?

I would certainly hope so. (VENGENCE would be mine) But I doubt it would crash the economy... Would it cause negative effects on the economy, absolutely. But I don't think it would crash the economy.

when will the government step in? hopefully before its too late...

Probably never... I think if the government were actually going to do something and not be apathetic and oblivious to all our problems, they would've done it by now.

[Robert Hall]

I would certainly hope so. (VENGENCE would be mine) But I doubt it would crash the economy... Would it cause negative effects on the economy, absolutely. But I don't think it would crash the economy.
Probably never... I think if the government were actually going to do something and not be apathetic and oblivious to all our problems, they would've done it by now.

They have been too busy the last few years burning through billions of dollars in the hopeless bottomless pit that is Iraq.. :(

[Cremazie]

The US government should get off its asses plain and simple! They should provide healthcare as Canada does. Healthcare is the expense in these companies. GM has the highest healthcare spending in the US.. believe it!

[HarleyEarl]

First, Canada pays very little for healthcare, it's not a federal jurisdiction, it's provincial. The provinces have control over healthcare and pay for healthcare through very high taxes, monthly premiums and userfees on it's people and most provinces can't afford it. Only Alberta is rich enough to pay for it and has the best healthcare in Canada and even it charges about 35.00 per month per person in premiums to access that so called free healthcare. And it's incredibly expensive and full of waste. Canadians don't have much of a case telling Americans what to do with healthcare when their system is a mess. Edited October 17, 2005 by HarleyEarl

[Robert Hall]

First, Canada pays very little for healthcare, it's not a federal jurisdiction, it's provincial.  The provinces have control over healthcare and pay for healthcare through very high taxes, monthly premiums and userfees on it's people and most provinces can't afford it.  Only Alberta is rich enough to pay for it and has the best healthcare in Canada and even it charges about 35.00 per month per person in premiums to access that so called free healthcare.  And it's incredibly expensive and full of waste.  Canadians don't have much of a case telling Americans what to do with healthcare when their system is a mess.

I've had the pub debate over US vs. Canadian healthcare many times with my coworkers (my company has about 50 people originally from Regina, Saskatchewan who have moved to Denver over the last decade)... none of them prefer the Canadian system over US healthcare... I guess the biggest difference is Canada has a safety for the uninsured which the US doesn't have..

[HarleyEarl]

Canadian healthcare is mythical in stature and many have illusions about it. There are many private clinics here and many who have the means to afford it. In fact, Quebec has the most private clinics in Canada, something many Canadians are not aware of. Many Canadians that have the money also use the American system as a private healthcare system where they can get better quality care, better equipment and quicker access. In Canada there are long waiting times for hosptial emergencies, surgery and available beds.

[Petra]

Back in the early 1980's, the government aided Chrysler only after they'd gone bankrupt. But, that was a different time and a different administration. I wouldn't expect the current U.S administration to provide the slightest bit of aid for any major business even if they go bankrupt, unless they happen to be in bed with said business (e.g: Haliburton).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

They have been too busy the last few years burning through billions of dollars in the hopeless bottomless pit that is Iraq.. :(

[post="30159"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Agreed. :ph34r:

RE: Healthcare

The government NEEDS to get a handle on lawsuits, lawyers and the medical/insurance industry gouging going on. That would help a helluva lot.

[Cremazie]

I've had the pub debate over US vs. Canadian healthcare many times with my coworkers (my company has about 50 people originally from Regina, Saskatchewan who have moved to Denver over the last decade)... none of them prefer the Canadian system over US healthcare... I guess the biggest difference is Canada has a safety for the uninsured which the US doesn't have..

[post="30203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The people that heathcare matters to are the people that can't afford private healthcare. All of us are to be in that boat once we get to the age of retirement..

[PontiacTechNJ]

The US government should get off its asses plain and simple! They should provide healthcare as Canada does. Healthcare is the expense in these companies. GM has the highest healthcare spending in the US.. believe it!

[post="30184"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You are proposing the end of the free enterprise system - stinking communist

[PontiacTechNJ]

Back in the early 1980's, the government aided Chrysler only after they'd gone bankrupt. But, that was a different time and a different administration. I wouldn't expect the current U.S administration to provide the slightest bit of aid for any major business even if they go bankrupt, unless they happen to be in bed with said business (e.g: Haliburton).

[post="30256"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

All that taxpayer dough to finance a sale to Benz - great

[Cremazie]

You are proposing the end of the free enterprise system - stinking communist

[post="30280"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I must be a communist because I believe that everyone should have access to healthcare. My grandmother had heart surgery at the age of 80 and had no money whatsoever or health insurance(only her old age pension). If she didn't have the surgery she would have died.
I guess you are going to tell me that it is a good idea to have invaded Vietnam and Iraq too?

[haypops]

RE: Healthcare

The government NEEDS to get a handle on lawsuits, lawyers and the medical/insurance industry gouging going on. That would help a helluva lot.

[post="30276"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My experiences would indicate that it wouldn't help at all. My daughter is charge nurse in the emergency department of a hospital here in Los Angeles. That means she is in charge of the other nurses, decides who gets seen first and by whom, as well as performing the more difficult procedures herself. In six years she has never been sued. Neither have any of the other nurses working for her or the doctors involved. Since the two hospitals she has worked at are located next to the interstate, and since she meets the medivac rescue helicopter, these are some pretty high risk patients. The meme that tort reform is the answer is just chicanary by one political party to fool us. What would save the medical system huge amounts of money would be for all of us to die 14 days earlier. Over 85% of the money expended on medical care for you during your lifetime occurs in the last 14 days of life.

[Cremazie]

My experiences would indicate that it wouldn't help at all.  My daughter is charge nurse in the emergency department of a hospital here in Los Angeles. That means she is in charge of the other nurses, decides who gets seen first and by whom, as well as performing the more difficult procedures herself. In six years she has never been sued.  Neither have any of the other nurses working for her or the doctors involved.  Since the two hospitals she has worked at are located next to the interstate, and  since she meets the medivac rescue helicopter, these are some pretty high risk patients. The meme that tort reform is the answer is just chicanary by one political party to fool us. What would save the medical system huge amounts of money would be for all of us to die 14 days earlier.  Over 85% of the money expended on medical care for you during your lifetime occurs in the last 14 days of life.

[post="30367"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Pull the plug sooner?

[The O.C.]

I was reading an article about 2 months ago that stated if GM were to go bankrupt that the entire US economy would crash.  They also said that the government will eventually have to step in and help out with health care and pension costs.

[post="29961"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Are you kidding? I'm sorry but GM just doesn't have the impact on the U.S. economy that it might have used to......

Sure....things in GM company towns would suffer.....and it certainly wouldn't be good for Michigan....but a bankrupt GM would be an overall blip on the rest of the country's economy's radar....

[Robert Hall]

I must be a communist because I believe that everyone should have access to healthcare. My grandmother had heart surgery at the age of 80 and had no money whatsoever or health insurance(only her old age pension). If she didn't have the surgery she would have died.
I guess you are going to tell me that it is a good idea to have invaded Vietnam and Iraq too?

I'm all for full access to healthcare...why should someone be denied healthcare because they can't afford it? It's a basic human right, IMHO..

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Heres a much simpler solution which probably wouldnt have the same effect but is desperately needed nonetheless... BAN ADVERTISING BY MEDICAL COMPANIES. Seriously were paying for THEM TO ADVERTISE these drugs. a drug should only be used when a doctor prescribes it not because some1 wants it. think of all the money that is spent on that? how much more expensive it makes some drugs? eliminating that would help healthcare a little bit (i doubt much, but it would still be better for us all)

[sciguy_0504]

Why I should I pay for some uneducated crackhead's health insurance? Universal healthcare gives everyone an excuse to do less work and be even more lazy because they can rely on their coworkers to pay for their health insurance. Once everyone gets the hint they're paying for fat ass' health insurance they start working less, too and eventually we have a bankrupt system. Less work = less pay = less taxes.

[sciguy_0504]

Heres a much simpler solution which probably wouldnt have the same effect but is desperately needed nonetheless...

BAN ADVERTISING BY MEDICAL COMPANIES.

Seriously were paying for THEM TO ADVERTISE these drugs. a drug should only be used when a doctor prescribes it not because some1 wants it. think of all the money that is spent on that? how much more expensive it makes some drugs? eliminating that would help healthcare a little bit (i doubt much, but it would still be better for us all)

[post="30406"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly. If you have a problem go to the doctor, don't try to diagnose yourself.

[Member55]

I must be a communist because I believe that everyone should have access to healthcare. My grandmother had heart surgery at the age of 80 and had no money whatsoever or health insurance(only her old age pension). If she didn't have the surgery she would have died.
I guess you are going to tell me that it is a good idea to have invaded Vietnam and Iraq too?

[post="30344"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Any person that needs a surgery in the US will get one, including your grandmother.

[haypops]

Pull the plug sooner?

[post="30370"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Absolutely! I have DNR(do not resuscitate) orders on my living will. This will save you guys big bucks.

[Newbiewar]

Are you kidding?  I'm sorry but GM just doesn't have the impact on the U.S. economy that it might have used to......

Sure....things in GM company towns would suffer.....and it certainly wouldn't be good for Michigan....but a bankrupt GM would be an overall blip on the rest of the country's economy's radar....

[post="30375"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If GM were to go bankrupt... meaning they close the doors, and say sorry we dont have work for you any more... thats about 1 million people not getting pensions anymore... not getting health insurance... not going to work everyday... There goes detriots ecconomy... and lets presume that Ford wouldnt follow the same fate, although the neighbors almost share the ecconomy... that would throw nearly 1.3 million people to the hands of the government, increasing the national unemployment by nearly .5%... also hitting the government with a debt of 300-500 billion dollars... thats adding 6% to the governments national debt... so far people are extamating that the governement will spend in excess of 700 Billion on Iraq... and for what? our security?
and look how much attention it is getting for costing the governement... what about GM? its not a slap on the wrist...

and you are saying GM doesnt have a large impact on the US?

what happens when an entire city of workers is unemployeed?
didn't you see roger and me? i'm sure we all did... and although it only portraid the bad things... can you imagine all of detriot like that?

what realistic effects will it have on the average person?

[Cremazie]

Absolutely!  I have DNR(do not resuscitate) orders on my living will.  This will save you guys big bucks.

[post="30476"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How does that work? Anytime you go down there is no recovery?

[haypops]

How does that work? Anytime you go down there is no recovery?

[post="30594"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I guess it means no tubes down the throat and electroshock of the heart. My daughter says that if your yuoung and healthy they will ignore the orders. When the body is starting to spiral down hill, the medical staff usually knows when its hopeless. Less television like histerics and more comforting "letting go".

[PontiacTechNJ]

[quote name='moltar' date='Oct 17 2005, 06:40 PM']
I'm all for full access to healthcare...why should someone be denied healthcare because they can't afford it? It's a basic human right, IMHO..

[post="30397"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[/quo
Guess What junior , there is a law in the formerly free United States . You cannot be denied healthcare due to your ability to pay . Since hardly anyone pays these days , thus you have a health care crisis . A TOTAL JOKE . thanks FDR , Jimmy Carter and BJ Clinton

[I hope GMRULES again]

GM is in the automotive business not healthcare so they shouldn't be stuck with a bill of 5.6 billion every year, the gov't should be taking care of that. GM should not be paying everytime an autoworkers kid has to go to the hospital for a bleeding nose. Canada's system may have a lot of problems and inefficiencies but at least it takes care of the poor and seniors don't have to choose between food and buying their medication.

[sciguy_0504]

The government shouldn't be taking care of anyone...people should take care of themselves. You're right, GM isn't in the healthcare business because it doesn't manufacture any drugs or medical equipment. It is in business, however, and it has employees that its leaders elected to take care of. GM promised its employees great medical coverage and now it has to pay.

[The O.C.]

If GM were to go bankrupt... meaning they close the doors, and say sorry we dont have work for you any more... thats about 1 million people not getting pensions anymore... not getting health insurance... not going to work everyday...  There goes detriots ecconomy... and lets presume that Ford wouldnt follow the same fate, although the neighbors almost share the ecconomy... that would throw nearly 1.3 million people to the hands of the government, increasing the national unemployment by nearly .5%... also hitting the government with a debt of 300-500 billion dollars...  thats adding 6% to the governments national debt... so far people are extamating that the governement will spend in excess of 700 Billion on Iraq... and for what? our security?
and look how much attention it is getting for costing the governement... what about GM?  its not a slap on the wrist...

and you are saying GM doesnt have a large impact on the US?

what happens when an entire city of workers is unemployeed?
didn't you see roger and me? i'm sure we all did... and although it only portraid the bad things... can you imagine all of detriot like that?


what realistic effects will it have on the average person?

[post="30533"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

FIRST of all.....if (and a BIG if) GM declares bankruptcy, the doors WON'T close. They'll restructure and rebuild much like the large airlines are currently doing right now.

Secondly, as far as Roger & Me, do you think if you asked the average person in California, or Long Island N.Y., or Miami if they knew what "Roger & Me" was, or where Flint, Michigan is, I BET you that 95% of the time, they won't.

As more and more imports open up operations over here, and if DCX continues to rebuild itself as successfully has they have recently, the auto industry and their suppliers will not be destroyed overnight by a GM bankruptcy.

Will it suffer? Sure......

Will Michigan and Detroit suffer? Sure.....

But life will move on and for 99.5% of this country's population (based upon your figures of 1.3M people affected vs. U.S. population of approximately 291M) they will just get up and continue to go to work and live their lives exactly as they have in the past.

[Cremazie]

Why I should I pay for some uneducated crackhead's health insurance? 

Universal healthcare gives everyone an excuse to do less work and be even more lazy because they can rely on their coworkers to pay for their health insurance.  Once everyone gets the hint they're paying for fat ass' health insurance they start working less, too and eventually we have a bankrupt system.  Less work = less pay = less taxes.

[post="30428"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ok, so explain to me why the US is heading for half a Trillion dollar defecit and the Medicare Canadian government is heading for a 5 billion surplus? Even it's poorest provinces are begining to register surplus'
But then again, because I can recieve free medicare, I am too lazy to find out which provinces are in the red! :lol:

[CaddyXLR-V]

But life will move on and for 99.5% of this country's population (based upon your figures of 1.3M people affected vs. U.S. population of approximately 291M) they will just get up and continue to go to work and live their lives exactly as they have in the past.

[post="30654"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I have read somewhere that there is a multiplier effect of 10 on every 1 GM employee. That would make that total 13M people affected. That would be 4.4% of the total population, but roughly half of the total population are working class, which would bring up the total affected to almost 10%. You will feel the effects even in CA.

[HarleyEarl]

To the Canadian member from Edmonton, I'll explain then: Medicare in Alberta is not free. You or your employer pays the monthly premium. And all of us pay dearly in taxes for your so-called free healthcare. Canada has a surplus because Canadians are one of the heaviest taxed people in the western world. Have you looked at Canada's debt lately....it is one of the highest in the western world.....the federal government barely can pay the interest on that debt and that is our tax dollars paying that interest. And the reason Canada is so debt?.....to pay for the lavish healthcare and other socialistic programs that Canadians can't afford. The current federal Liberal gov't is so corrupt, has wasted untold billions of dollars of Canadian taxpayers money. This current gov't may go down in defeat soon because of their corrupt ways. Some are being charged with illegal practises as we speak. So Canadians can't give much advice to Americans on how to run their affairs. Edited October 18, 2005 by HarleyEarl

[HarleyEarl]

I must be a communist because I believe that everyone should have access to healthcare. My grandmother had heart surgery at the age of 80 and had no money whatsoever or health insurance(only her old age pension). If she didn't have the surgery she would have died.
I guess you are going to tell me that it is a good idea to have invaded Vietnam and Iraq too?

[post="30344"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And should Canadian armed forces be fighting in Afghanistan?....or are you even aware that our Canadian forces are there and some are dying? Canada also fought alongside American forces in the Korean war....should we have been there?...I think you should read more about your own history before pointing an accusing finger at American foreign policy.

[Cremazie]

And should Canadian armed forces be fighting in Afghanistan?....or are you even aware that our Canadian forces are there and some are dying?  Canada also fought alongside American forces in the Korean war....should we have been there?...I think you should read more about your own history before pointing an accusing finger at American foreign policy.

[post="30676"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am aware that Canadian forces are in in Afghanastan. I also know that there exchange Canadian troops fighting in Iraq.
I didn't say that Canada is all knowing and great but I feel that it is better to be spending billions on helping our own than it is to be spending it on fighting a war that only benefits oil tycoons. Edited October 18, 2005 by Cremazie

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

FIRST of all.....if (and a BIG if) GM declares bankruptcy, the doors WON'T close.  They'll restructure and rebuild much like the large airlines are currently doing right now.

Secondly, as far as Roger & Me, do you think if you asked the average person in California, or Long Island N.Y., or Miami if they knew what "Roger & Me" was, or where Flint, Michigan is, I BET you that 95% of the time, they won't.

As more and more imports open up operations over here, and if DCX continues to rebuild itself as successfully has they have recently, the auto industry and their suppliers will not be destroyed overnight by a GM bankruptcy.

Will it suffer?  Sure......

Will Michigan and Detroit suffer?  Sure.....

But life will move on and for 99.5% of this country's population (based upon your figures of 1.3M people affected vs. U.S. population of approximately 291M) they will just get up and continue to go to work and live their lives exactly as they have in the past.

[post="30654"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not saying you're wrong (As I don't know how much effect a GM bankruptcy would have)

But IMHO, this is the typical apathetic attitude that has gotten us into the slide to nothingness that this country is in.

"Screw those who will suffer, because as long as I'm okay, all is well with the world and we're # 1"

It's typical of the individualist thinking in America and ESPECIALLY in California.

I'm not being critical. In fact I'm the SAME way, except in regards to GM surviving.... I'm merely pointing it out as what I think is an example.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have orders that in the event that I end up like Terri Schivo, they are to yank that feeding tube out like they're starting a lawnmower. Ziiiingggg!

[CARBIZ]

This is totally off topic, but Canada's national debt, as a percentage of gross domestic product is one of the lowest of the G-8.

[Cremazie]

To the Canadian member from Edmonton, I'll explain then:

Medicare in Alberta is not free.  You or your employer pays the monthly premium.  And all of us pay dearly in taxes for your so-called free healthcare.

[post="30667"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I would still be covered if I paid my Alberta Healthcare bill or not.

Canada has a surplus because Canadians are one of the heaviest taxed people in the western world.  Have you looked at Canada's debt lately....it is one of the highest in the western world.....the federal government barely can pay the interest on that debt and that is our tax dollars paying that interest.

Canada does have a surplus, but it's debt to GDP ratio is one of the lowest in the G8.

And the reason Canada is so debt?.....to pay for the lavish healthcare and other socialistic programs that Canadians can't afford.

We have high taxes that pay for the programs. The government is not billing my grandchildren for Missiles and Star wars ABMs.

The current federal Liberal gov't is so corrupt, has wasted untold billions of dollars of Canadian taxpayers money.  This current gov't may go down in defeat soon because of their corrupt ways.  Some are being charged with illegal practises as we speak.

So Canadians can't give much advice to Americans on how to run their affairs.

I probably don't have much room to give advice, but I will. I am a left leaning liberal and I believe in social programs for all. I hate the corruption in the current liberal government, but I am happy I don't have a Bush running the country.


It all went far off topic, but I feel that GM benefits because of medicare. Edited October 18, 2005 by Cremazie

[PontiacTechNJ]

Canada Has No Military - with the teeney amount of money they send on defense , it is basically the Boy Scouts - armed and a few planes . The massive taxation blasted on the Canadian system makes the US an attractive place to emigrate to . This is the United States , home of the rugged individual , we have proof that 40 years of a welfare state has basically destroyed us . We are supposed to be a constitutional state - where in the heck does it say in the constitution that my FIFTY PERCENT of my labor be spent on college tuition for suburbanites and needles for junkies , farm subsidies , horrible schools , unionized floor sweepers with better bennies than GM employees ever could hope for . And hey Canada , thank you for the EZ entry asylum system that allows terrorists to live really close to NY , Whiney losers .

[Cremazie]

And hey Canada , thank you for the EZ entry asylum system that allows terrorists to live really close to NY , Whiney losers .

[post="30766"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My brother lives in Connecicut and loves it. He is proud to live in the USA. I thought that the terrorists that were involved with 9/11 were living in the US? Lets face it, there is nothing in Canada worth blowing up.. Maybe the CN tower, but I doubt that would happen. Edited October 18, 2005 by Cremazie

[CARBIZ]

Well, well, we seemed to have touched a nerve here. I have always viewed Canada and the U.S. to be virtually the same place -cousins, if you will. We both have our fair shair of wing nut politicians. I have always voted Liberal, but I am aghast at the level of corruption in high places now; more aghast at the lack of alternatives to vote for! Canada and the U.S. are joined at the hip - like it or not. We have our Commie Pinkos and you have your KKK. We also need each other. A lot. The two hottest comodities of the 21st century will be fresh water and oil. Guess what, boys and girls - Canada has more of both than anybody else on the planet. Everybody thinks that America is blessed and they would be right, to a point. I believe Canada is also blessed, but we are too humble to admit it. As both China and Russia ascend the world stage, Canada is in the unique position of being central to all of the major world powers. We can ship and trade with each and we enjoy the mutual protection of all. So why would we need an armed forces? At the end of WWII, we had the 4th largest armed force in the world. But that was then? Other than internal disasters or for international peace keeping, why would we need a huge armed force? Who have we pissed off enough that they would want to invade us? More to the point: who would dare? If China invaded, the U.S. would have to intercede. If the U.S. invaded, China or Russia wouldn't allow it, and so on and so forth. Anyway, this is really digressing from the point of this thread, but I can't sit by and abide lies and conjecture.

[PontiacTechNJ]

Only because you have your big brother down here looking after you . Who is Canadas biggest trading partner ?

[PontiacTechNJ]

[quote name='Cremazie' date='Oct 18 2005, 02:13 PM']

We have high taxes that pay for the programs. The government is not billing my grandchildren for Missiles and Star wars ABMs.

The US Txpayer keeps you Pacifists safe from invasion . How Dare you spit on the people that keep you safe up there in that suburb of the United States

[HarleyEarl]

Canada Has No Military - with the teeney amount of money they send on defense , it is basically the Boy Scouts - armed and a few planes . The massive taxation blasted on the Canadian system makes the US an attractive place to emigrate to . This is the United States , home of the rugged individual , we have proof that 40 years of a welfare state has basically destroyed us . We are supposed to be a constitutional state - where in the heck does it say in the constitution that my FIFTY PERCENT of my labor be spent on college tuition for suburbanites and needles for junkies , farm subsidies , horrible schools , unionized floor sweepers with better bennies than GM employees ever could hope for . And hey Canada , thank you for the EZ entry asylum system that allows terrorists to live really close to NY , Whiney losers .

[post="30766"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm born and bred Canadian living in beautiful Calgary, Alberta, land of the free and debt free....and I agree with you completely.

Many Canadians hide their head in the sand, many are very anti-American. They are smug and self-righteous....they have to be vis-a-vis the US, because Canada can't really compete with the US in any meaningful way. We have the population and economy of California.

We virtually have no military but expect the US to protect us in crisis. So, no wonder there is a surplus and the US debt is ever increasing...we spend peanuts on our military but expect the US to foot the bill for our defense. It is very disappointing how many Canadians whine about the US.

Canadians like to think they are so kind and thoughtful and are just sweet peace keepers...bs. A few years ago our military was in Rwanda, some troops arrested some locals who were stealing food and beat them to a pulp and then took pictures of their bloody deed. They were court martialed. That's the image Canadians don't want to acknowledge.

Our bozo Prime Minister just the other day threatened a trade war with the US over our heavily subsidized soft wood, threatening to find other markets for Canada's oil......I laughed hysterically........all natural resources belong to the provinces....Alberta' s oil is theirs to decide where to sell and we are going to supply our friends, the Americans with oil and natural gas. Alberta is close to overtaking Saudi Arabia as having the most in reserves. So don't worry my American friends you have friends in oil-rich Alberta even though Canada doesn't like you.

[Cremazie]

The US Txpayer keeps you Pacifists safe from invasion . How Dare you spit on the people that keep you safe up there in that suburb of the United States

[post="30774"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I do not spit on the people of the US, as I said earlier, my brother is living in the US. I do not look down on the people of the US. I don't know where you get that Idea. Just some policies. I live in Alberta and I hate some of the Canadian policies.

Our bozo Prime Minister just the other day threatened a trade war with the US over our heavily subsidized soft wood, threatening to find other markets for Canada's oil......I laughed hysterically........all natural resources belong to the provinces....Alberta' s oil is theirs to decide where to sell and we are going to supply our friends, the Americans with oil and natural gas. Alberta is close to overtaking Saudi Arabia as having the most in reserves. So don't worry my American friends you have friends in oil-rich Alberta even though Canada doesn't like you.

If not for Americans the oil that comes from the Ft. McMurray oil sands (Largest oilsands deposit in the world and largest part of Albertas oil wealth) would still be in the ground. Suncor was the first oilsands development in the world and was initated by a group of American investors. It is all co-dependant. Alberta only has the resources. American money pays to take the oil out of the ground, then they buy it from us. If not for America I would be in Toronto selling beaver pelts.

[CARBIZ]

Pontiac, this is a GM fansite, so let me put this silly argument in terms you can understand: WE CANADIANS BUY A HALF MILLION GM CARS EVERY YEAR. COULD GM STAND TO LOSE THAT MANY SALES? End of discussion.

[PontiacTechNJ]

Pontiac, this is a GM fansite, so let me put this silly argument in terms you can understand:  WE CANADIANS BUY A HALF MILLION GM CARS EVERY YEAR.  COULD GM STAND TO LOSE THAT MANY SALES?

  End of discussion.

[post="30825"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OK , #3 forever , GO GM