Next GMT-360s

[ehaase]

I don't understand why Buick is getting a Lambda crossover, while Chevrolet is not. I would prefer to see the crossover go to Chevrolet, GMC, and Saturn, so that each mainstream sales channel each gets one. Buyers of mid sized SUV's are more sensitive to increase to higher gas prices, so I think that the market will contract sharply. However, the wealthier buyers of large SUV's are somewhat less sensitive to high gas prices, and I expect that this market will contract some, but survive.

[91z4me]

Over course they won't abandon the TB, think about it.  http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

[post="30314"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So TB stays around a few more years as a GMT360 probably will get another MCE. Then it moves to Lambda. Makes sense since the Buick, GMC, and Saturn versions will already be out. I would expect the GMC and the Chevy to have similar mechanicals, OHV V8 and perhaps an OHV V6 instead of the 3.6 that will be in the Buick and Saturn.

Thanks to the insiders for the hints, and please keep them coming.

[VenSeattle]

Okay.... did I miss something?

Is Chevrolet getting a Lambda-based minivan AND a Lambda-based Crossover/SUV now?

[91z4me]

Okay.... did I miss something?

Is Chevrolet getting a Lambda-based minivan AND a Lambda-based Crossover/SUV now?

[post="30361"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Chevy is the Volume brand. It also has the largest dealer network of any brand in the industry.

[VenSeattle]

Chevy is the Volume brand.  It also has the largest dealer network of any brand in the industry.

[post="30363"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I understand that, but there hasn't been a program discussed for a Chevrolet Lambda SUV. "Is there one now?" is my question.

[ehaase]

Is Chevrolet getting a Lambda-based minivan AND a Lambda-based Crossover/SUV now?

It should, even if that means ditching the Buick. I'd rather Buick concentrate on sedans and get a new Riviera coupe and convertible.

[VenSeattle]

It should, even if that means ditching the Buick.  I'd rather Buick concentrate on sedans and get a new Riviera coupe and convertible.

[post="30365"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't think GM needs to ditch any current Lambda program to include a Chevrolet Lambda-SUV variant. GM has the capacity. GM just needs to make sure they're unique.

I don't think GMC & Buick both need one though... but that also depends on how GM makes the Lambda SUVs different.


But another thing to look at, if Buick's version gets ditched, then that will leave Buick without ANYTHING NEW for 4 years. Buick needs the 2008 Lambda to keep something fresh in the line-up.

[turbo200]

I remember ah-ha once mentioning a Chevy version coming on Lambda, this wasn't too long ago.

[Northstar]

So then OK City would move to Lambda production because there's no way in hell the Delta Township plant can produce the TB and three other Lambdas. They may even need another plant since Delta Township only has 250k production, and the next minivans are also Lambda. This is definetly a good move by GM, IMO, and is good forward thinking. I've never seen a TB towing anything and I doubt the majority of owners care if it can tow anything a Lambda wouldn't be able to, so probably 95% of current owners would be retained, and it'd have a shot at owners of crossovers like the Pilot, Highlander, and Murano. Also, with the Explorer still being BOF, the TB will have a significant advantage in ride and flexibility (third row seating should be better, fold flat seats would be possible, etc) and many Explorer buyers probably don't know what BOF and unibody even means, so they won't care if the TB is better. Damn good move by GM, IMO, as long as it still has that kickass interior.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Well, I like my '05 GMC Envoy much better than the '03 Buick Rendezvous my wife picked out last time. It would be really hard for me to give up on the truck platform for another car/minivan-based crossover platform. I love how the Envoy rides, handles and performs much better over the Rendezvous. There would have to be some serious work done to the Lambda platform to make me want to switch out of my Envoy/BOF platform. It's sad to hear now that there might not be another new Envoy in the future. I've been so happy with the 2005 model, I couldn't imagine not having another new one to replace it when this lease ends. I agree that GMC & Chevy should be the only ones to retain the GMT-360s... but I can also understand the fact that the upcoming Lambda's and the new GMT-900's may be the final nails in the coffin for the GMT-360 SUVs.

[ehaase]

It is premature to talk about the death of the TrailBlazer and Envoy. However, with $3/gallon gas (and a real likelihood of it being much higher in the future), GM, with its scarce resources, may be better off modestly updating them and putting its funds elsewhere. What I wonder is how will the size of the Lambdas compare to the Ford Freestyle.

[z28luvr01]

I can see how this makes sense. In a sense the current GMT360s and GMT800 SUVs do overlap a bt...especially the V8, extended versions. Between Lambda and the SWB GMT900s, the segment is pretty much covered. Remember the spy shots we saw of the Outlook? That thing was nearly the size of a GMT360, and we've already been told there will be V6 and V8 versions. THe majority of people will probably spring for the Lambdas, while thos who really need the towing capacity can spring for a base Tahoe/Yukon.

[turbo200]

It is premature to talk about the death of the TrailBlazer and Envoy.  However, with $3/gallon gas (and a real likelihood of it being much higher in the future), GM, with its scarce resources, may be better off modestly updating them and putting its funds elsewhere.

What I wonder is how will the size of the Lambdas compare to the Ford Freestyle.

[post="30414"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Agreed, all of what we are saying here is speculation, based on a few insider tips. BOF midsize SUVs still, most likely, will be around for another decade or five years at least. As always, things change with GM, and escalating fuel costs are a concern and a good reason not to fund development of BOF midsize SUVS as has been stated here by evok and others. So they could or could not be continuing with the TB and Envoy, but they definitely are deciding on the future of investments for these products at this moment.

I don't see why fuel isn't a concern with the crossovers though, since they will have relatively large engines and hefty curb weights being the size they are. I can definitely understand why one would say there is no need for a car like the current TB with its inefficient use of space when you have a Lambda that will approach the interior space of a Tahoe, or surpass it, all in a tidy package.

One thing is certain, the Lambda will be a much better package, and will handle and ride much much better than RDV or TB, so GMTRuckGuy you can at least be less concerned with that.

[fordrules]

I want to see the picture of the interior

[Member55]

BOF is history, only full size SUVs will be BOF if gas prices stay high or go even higher in the future.

[91z4me]

Just an update from a member of Ford corprate who works in the Fern Valley assembly plant in Louisville. There will be 1 full week closing of the plant begining the week of October 1st and another in December. It seems the new Explorer isn't doing so hot.

[Northstar]

Do you mean Nov. 1st? Oct 1st has come and gone.

[91z4me]

Do you mean Nov. 1st? Oct 1st has come and gone.

[post="30515"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Meant to type Octo 31st but yeah they are the same week.

[Cadillacfan]

I went back and reread your initial post and apologize for my reaction.

To answer the rest of your questions.

What the hell crawled up your ass? - Actually something did.  A few on this board should know why.  Obviously you won't know.  But others do.  And what crawled up it was partially directed at you and it should not have.  As for the people that know, they should know why.  Hate to be cryptic but as always I have to be.

As for your other question, I posted earlier as to what is going to happen to the mid sized BOF market.  Different demographics for mid sized and full sized market.

In GM's case, market will shift to lambda vehicles over time.

[post="30302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, at least we are cool now. I should not have lashed back. I've been seeing a lot of people (not you) on this website being negative, insulting, and just plain awful towards other members in recent months. I took what you said a little too seriously.

While I have to agree with your future predictions about where the market is going (crossovers), the GMT-360s shouldn’t be cut from GM’s lineup. I think the first Body on Frame SUVs to be axed at GM would be the GMT-900s. Sure, they were just redesigned but that doesn’t make them immune to the current high gas prices and a drop in sales. The mid-size BOF market still has a few more years left in it while the full-size market doesn’t because they’re just too big to get great gas mileage out of them. 20 mpg is pretty good for a full-size SUV but if gas prices keep going up, it’s going to become harder and harder for GM to keep people from buying smaller vehicles.
Until people stop buying SUVs like the Envoy and TB, they should at least update them and bring them into the 21st century so they could at least go out on top rather than wither away into obscurity like so many previous GM vehicles. We’ve seen what GM was able to pull of with the gas mileage on the new Tahoe. Imagine what the next Trailblazer will be like.

Sure, in the end, it would still be a waste of money, but it is not too different then what GM has done for a quarter of a century. At least they wasted the money on making a decent product.

[cmattson]

Let's think about this from a business/cost-benefit perspective. Future gas prices are an unknown. It's unlikely they'll significantly drop -- but even if they do, the scare of high gas prices will be at the forefront of consumers. I'm not sure I'd rush out and buy a Trailblazer given the high gas prices we've just encountered. It'll take a long time of low(er) gas prices for that mentality to fade. GM certainly knows this as well. Now factor in that the GMT360's platform isn't exactly the best performing thing in the world, that the Lambda architecture is more flexible (fwd, awd, fold-flat seats), and that the Lamda platform's costs would be spread out over trucks, minivans, suv & crossover vehicles and that a Lambda-SUV would provide greater product seperation between it and the Tahoe/Yukon and you can easily see why there is tremendous appeal to dropping the GMT-360/361. After listing the reasons, I think it's a foregone conclusion that the GMT360/361 will be dropped. Does it really matter if the next TB would be Lambda-based? If it got better gas mileage, fold-flat seats, car-like handling.... would that be so bad? If you really need the towing/storage capability, then isn't that what GM's got the Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban for?

[97regalGS]

While I have to agree with your future predictions about where the market is going (crossovers), the GMT-360s shouldn’t be cut from GM’s lineup. I think the first Body on Frame SUVs to be axed at GM would be the GMT-900s.  Sure, they were just redesigned but that doesn’t make them immune to the current high gas prices and a drop in sales.  The mid-size BOF market still has a few more years left in it while the full-size market doesn’t because they’re just too big to get great gas mileage out of them.  20 mpg is pretty good for a full-size SUV but if gas prices keep going up, it’s going to become harder and harder for GM to keep people from buying smaller vehicles.

[post="30601"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

i think your assessment of a 900 buyer and a 360 buyer is inaccurate. i personally do not believe they are the same buyer.

if u drop the 900's will those people buy 360? some, but not most. they need/want a full size suv for a reason and a midsize will not cut it, no matter what
the cost of gas. and they will shop another brand. (you think an Escalade buyer or a Denali buyer (who has a higher income than an Escalade buyer) give a hoot about the price of gas? you ever see any of them towing anything?)

however, if you drop the 360 will those midsize buyers move from BOF to lamba? yes they will, for the most part. in fact, if you keep the TB name on the lamba and the inside has a sharper interior, a more flexible interior and tows almost as much does it matter if it is BOF or not? no.

and if they really do need to tow something then they'll move up to the Tahoe.

[ehaase]

I agree with 97regalGS. The wealthy and business people will continue buying full size SUV's, although less than in the past, since they don't worry about gas prices. I look for the mid-size truck based SUV market to end up like Ford's Panther cars - keep around for those who need or want them, but invest very little in them as sales of crossovers increase.

[CaddyXLR-V]

i think your assessment of a 900 buyer and a 360 buyer is inaccurate.  i personally do not believe they are the same buyer. 

if u drop the 900's will those people buy 360?  some, but not most.  they need/want a full size suv for a reason and a midsize will not cut it, no matter what
the cost of gas. and they will shop another brand.  (you think an Escalade buyer or a Denali buyer (who has a higher income than an Escalade buyer) give a hoot about the price of gas? you ever see any of them towing anything?)

however, if you drop the 360 will those midsize buyers move from BOF to lamba?  yes they will, for the most part.  in fact, if you keep the TB name on the lamba and the inside has a sharper interior, a more flexible interior and tows almost as much does it matter if it is BOF or not? no. 

and if they really do need to tow something then they'll move up to the Tahoe.

[post="30614"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree. The mid-size segment is much more price sensitive. Most of them probably got a mid-size because they couldnt afford a full size suv. The people driving full-size SUVs have more money to spend, and are not effected by gas prices as much. Alot of people dont know the difference between BOF and unibody SUVs, and dont care. What they do care about is better gas mileage, and room to fit 5+ people comfortably.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

if you ask my humble opinion that's a ridiculous question. Yes, logically GM will have lots more to offer in that market segment with the Thetas and Lambdas, so I could see where they could start to remove the 360s. But, Trailblazer is a historically great-selling product, and I don't think it's a smart idea to call it a loser NOW when the car is still selling like 300k units.

[post="30251"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BINGO!

It is one success story in a time of many failures for GM. To abandon ship would be typical, dumb, old GM think.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

hmmm... a TB, with the TB name and TB styling but as a Lambda?

[post="30322"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But that I could live with I guess... As long as they weren't completely devoid of truck-like qualities (You know; the major selling points of an SUV over a car and decent towing, AWD performance to match)

[Drew Dowdell]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Toyota can sell the Highlander next to the 4Runner, why can't Chevy sell a Lamda next to a GMT-360, or Chrysler a Pacifica next to a Grand Cherokee*, or Ford a Freestar next to an Explorer? *most Chrysler dealers near me picked up a Jeep franchise after they lost Plymouth.

[GMan]

Theta?

[turbo200]

Keep thinking.

[post="30733"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:) heh. okay.....TB retains BOF platform for years to come since that is what is working and gets a decent MCE with the interior. Envoy disappears, replaced by Acadia, because of the investment required to do the differentiation of interior and exterior was too great. Chevrolet also gets Lambda SUV, somewhere down the line, eventually the plan is for this to become the replacement of GMT 361.

But this plan doesn't consider factory capacity......%$##@@

throw us a bone?

[ehaase]

Maybe TrailBlazer will go on short GMT900. I believe that Nissan's Pathfinder and XTerra are on a short version of the Titan/Armada platform. Alternatively, maybe it will go on Colorado platform. Personally, I would just keep using the current platform, with periodic updates.

[91z4me]

Maybe TrailBlazer will go on short GMT900.  I believe that Nissan's Pathfinder and XTerra are on a short version of the Titan/Armada platform.  Alternatively, maybe it will go on Colorado platform.  Personally, I would just keep using the current platform, with periodic updates.

[post="30809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GMT 355 is a solid possibility because there are 2 different SUVs on it already (H3 and the MU7 a D-Max based SUV sold overseas.

[fordrules]

Can I see any pics yet!

[ocnblu]

Will the next TB be based on the TopKick chassis?

[Robert Hall]

Will the next TB be based on the TopKick chassis?

Heh-heh...maybe they can put a Camaro on the TB chassis to pacify all the BOF fans.. wait, they already tried that with the SSR..sort of.:) Edited October 19, 2005 by moltar

[fordrules]

I WANT TO SEE THE INTERIOR PIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cadillacfan]

Unless you want this site to shut down, I don't think you'll be seeing it anytime soon.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Keep thinking.

GMT900?

You know, like Nissan does with the Titan/Armada & Pathfinder/Frontier Same platform, different sizes?

EDIT: Nevermind, ehaase beat me to it. :D

[Robert Hall]

GMT900?

You know, like Nissan does with the Titan/Armada & Pathfinder/Frontier Same platform, different sizes?

[post="31175"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Seems plausable..though since the GMT360 platform is only 5 years old, I don't see why they don't just update it...

[SimonDavid]

I agree with turbo200 Toyota would run them both alongside each other - I know that in Australia Toyota still sells many BOF Landcruisers. Launch Lambda with GMC/Buick first, drop the Envoy, and keep a Chevy GM360 for the BOF crowd. If GM gives GM360 an update and a new interior it will go on selling for a few years yet, maybe in slowly declining quantities like the Astro. In effect it's the same thing Cadillac has done with the DTS (and Lincoln with the Town Car) - those markets maybe in long term decline, but they're still big, and if the product is relatively recent then why not keep building it with a modest update?

[thegriffon]

GM's problem is partly that the GMT 360's have never been a global product like the Explorer, Pathfinder, 4Runner and Landcruiser, and partly that they can't make as much money building SUVs, even in North America, than Toyota does. Thus Toyota can afford an FJCruiser, 4Runner, GX470, LandCruiser and Sequoia, plus a (Daihatsu) Terios, RAV4, Highlander, Fortuner and RX, but GM can't offer a similar breadth and is struggling to offer any SUV outside North America.

Speaking of LandCruiser, the larger "stationwagon" model has had the even-number model series (J60, J80, J100) since 1980, but is now being pre-empted by the new Landcruiser Prado (GX470), which moves from the odd series (J70, J90) to the even (J120), supplanting both the LandCruiser 100 and 4Runner in most markets as the world's most popular SUV.

LandRover and Jeep have both switched to unibody SUVs, so there is no reason a Lambda Trailblazer couldn't fit the role, but I do think they need a rugged midsize 7-seat SUV slightly larger than the H3 to take on the LandCruiser 120 and new Pathfinder, and which can be built and sold cheaply in global markets such as Brazil, South Africa and India. Such an SUV would replace the Blazer still built in South America and compete effectively against the Toyota Fortuner (Hilux-based like the first 4Runners). A 7-seat Chevrolet based on the H3 would be a good idea, and may have global volume to justify the investment by GM. Edited October 20, 2005 by thegriffon

[thegriffon]

In Australia Toyota sells many J120 LandCruiser Prados instead of the 4Runner, not many of the J100 LandCruiser. The midsize 7-seat Ford Territory crossover is even more popular though (closer to the SRX in size and character than the Freestyle).

[SimonDavid]

I agree Griffon Im thinking of I guess a GMT360 based 120 Prado rival and also something more basic based on GMT355 - basically a cheap H3 The GMT360 would sell well in Australia, the GMT355 in South America, Africa, India If they're really doing global product development they should be able to do this. They are already building RHD H3s in South Africa, why not build the GMT355 there for world markets. Several carmakers are using South Africa as an export source - I think even BMW sources RHD 3 series from there

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM's problem is partly that the GMT 360's have never been a global product like the Explorer, Pathfinder, 4Runner and Landcruiser, and partly that they can't make as much money building SUVs, even in North America, than Toyota does. Thus Toyota can afford an FJCruiser, 4Runner, GX470, LandCruiser and Sequoia, plus a (Daihatsu) Terios, RAV4, Highlander, Fortuner and RX, but GM can't offer a similar breadth and is struggling to offer any SUV outside North America.

Hmmm... GMT360 isn't global...

But, GMT355 is global. :) Interesting.....

[91z4me]

LoL....good god, don't tell 'em that. In a week the big "story" will be "Trailblazer moves to Sigma!"

[post="32573"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I thought it was going on Delta? :blink:

[Croc]

Hmmm... GMT360 isn't global...

But, GMT355 is global. :) Interesting.....

[post="31664"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But ultimately which platform is superior? I'd say GMT-360.

[Croc]

I thought it was going on Delta? :blink:

[post="32578"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, you're all wrong. It's going on Beta, the magical, mystical platform that gets 55mpg, has a V8, is RWD, both BOF and unibody at the same time and if you know how to do it right, can hover four feet off the ground.

[turbo200]

But ultimately which platform is superior?  I'd say GMT-360.

[post="32580"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What do you base that on? Just asking because to the best of my knowledge, they are both solid platforms with little to no drawbacks in terms of rigidity and flexibility. A GMT-355 based TB would be perfect imo, and I don't see why they didn't do it in the first place. Like griffon was saying, make it three rows of seating and it would be a great worldwide competitor. H3 is already being fitted to accomodate diesel engines. it seems like a perfect solution, imo.....

[Croc]

The GMT-355 has a very small engine compartment. That's why the trucks are stuck with the I-5 for now, which while adequate does not provide the power many customers want.

[turbo200]

This will be releived soon for the H3, I beleive they are working on a small block to fit in it, but at least it will get a bump in displacement soon. It wouldn't be logical for GM to design a Trailblazer around the GMT 355 platform and not design it to fit bigger engines than the 3.5.

[Croc]

But it really wasn't logical for GM/Isuzu to design the GMT-355s with such a small engine compartment in the first place!

[caddycruiser]

What do you base that on? Just asking because to the best of my knowledge, they are both solid platforms with little to no drawbacks in terms of rigidity and flexibility. A GMT-355 based TB would be perfect imo, and I don't see why they didn't do it in the first place. Like griffon was saying, make it three rows of seating and it would be a great worldwide competitor. H3 is already being fitted to accomodate diesel engines. it seems like a perfect solution, imo.....

[post="32590"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Except the whole rear leaf springs and less roomy engine compartment would be a significant downgrade from the current models.