Edmunds V6 Family Sedan Comparison

[turbo200]

If Honda were offering NAV in a $24,000 Accord, I'd say no. However, NAV only comes on the most loaded models that reach well into Buick*, Saab, and even Cadillac territory. You said it yourself, only 10% of your inventory had NAV. Not having NAV increases the value of Buick, Saab and Cadillac. If someone gives up a Malibu and goes and buys a $32k Altima, that's their own problem for not visiting Buick, Saab, or even Lincoln.

*where Buick should be.

Saab, Buick, Lincoln, and Cadillac should not seek to differentiate themselves by one feature alone. As Dodgefan made the point, years ago dual zone climate control was not expected of anything buy premium cars. This is now a feature available in regular midsize sedans, pretty much across the board. That's what companies must do, adjust to consumer demands based on the time.

[Drew Dowdell]

ok, glad you brought up this comparison. in the ES350 we have features like real walnut trim wood, ventilated seats, dual mode memory seats programmable to the remote, keyless ignition, etc

things you could never get on a Camry. But you can get NAVI on both. that's how you properly differentiate between luxury features and standard car features, you react to what the market calls for. if 10% of the market for midsize cars in general select a NAV, isn't that enough buyers to justify competing for? 5% of the midsize market would still be at least 100,000 buyers.

And what does Toyota not have? Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick.

What you're really pushing for is the elimination of the non "C" brands.

[turbo200]

tag team on oldsmoboi

[turbo200]

And what does Toyota not have? Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick.

Saab, Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln should not seek to differentiate themselves by one feature.

[Northstar]

And what does Toyota not have? Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick.

What you're really pushing for is the elimination of the non "C" brands.

But if Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick are there only for NAV, dual-zone climate, and a few other little features, we might as well only have the "C" brands. Why should GM keep 4 brands so that those 4 can offer 4 features that Chevy doesn't?

Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick have to differentiate themselves in ways other than NAV, dual-zone, bluetooth, etc.

[A Horse With No Name]

I disagree, I think the Altima as a whole is very sophisticated looking package. lines up front are instantly recognizable as 350Z new Nissan look, and are the best interpretation of the Nissan theme [which I am not a fan of at all, but on 350Z and Altima it does work better and best]. At the rear it continues that sophisticated and contemporary look. The car screams something that is unique and trying hard to be different, all the while saying something about Nissan, athletic.

What this comparison really proves is that the cars in this class are getting to a level of class and sophistication that means everyone can find something to love

I disagree. To me I would reject the Altima on looks alone...

Chris

[turbo200]

I disagree. To me I would reject the Altima on looks alone...

Chris

Right. I don't love the Altima design, just that I think it's cohesive and it works, and it looks modern. It looks right for the class, it looks as expensive as the Malibu, Accord, and Camry look, which, to me, are the standard bearers. I think Fusion lags a little behind these, mostly because it's derivative in some areas, and then doesn't break any new ground or follow today's trends. Aura is also very good looking, but it's gimmicky, and some of the design is old hat....and it's not a complete design like Malibu, Accord, Altima, and Camry in my eyes.....

Edited December 13, 2007 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

tag team on oldsmoboi

don't tease :AH-HA_wink:

[Drew Dowdell]

Saab, Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln should not seek to differentiate themselves by one feature.

I'm not insinuating that. I think it's a host of things that people get their panties in a bunch about. Bluetooth, Nav, heated seats, dual zone, XM, DOHC, RWD..... remember there is a Zeta Impala coming out soon (we hope) and with how big the Malibu is now there is going to HAVE to be something other than the smallish size difference to justify it.

If the Malibu were designed by a committee of C&G members, it would end up being a hydrogen power 7-series with every electronic gizmo known to man, yet base under 20k.

and somehow GM would have to make a profit on it.

[Drew Dowdell]

But if Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick are there only for NAV, dual-zone climate, and a few other little features, we might as well only have the "C" brands. Why should GM keep 4 brands so that those 4 can offer 4 features that Chevy doesn't?

Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick have to differentiate themselves in ways other than NAV, dual-zone, bluetooth, etc.

Yes, there is more to it than just those features. But those features should be reserved for the premium price classes.

[Z-06]

That is Buick, Saturn, and Pontiac's and over all GM's problem, not Chevy's. Fix those other brands and this issue goes away.

But if Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick are there only for NAV, dual-zone climate, and a few other little features, we might as well only have the "C" brands. Why should GM keep 4 brands so that those 4 can offer 4 features that Chevy doesn't?

Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Buick have to differentiate themselves in ways other than NAV, dual-zone, bluetooth, etc.

Again you too miss the point. Unless the SAAB, Pontiac, Buick and Saturn were in the same building as the Chevy, the dealer will let the customer know that hey if you want those goodies we have these vehicles. A Dealer will NOT say go to the "OTHER" GM Brands and they will provide you with what you want.

Right. I don't love the Altima design, just that I think it's cohesive and it works, and it looks modern. It looks right for the class, it looks as expensive as the Malibu, Accord, and Camry look, which, to me, are the standard bearers. I think Fusion lags a little behind these, mostly because it's derivative in some areas, and then doesn't break any new ground or follow today's trends. Aura is also very good looking, but it's gimmicky, and some of the design is old hat....and it's not a complete design like Malibu, Accord, Altima, and Camry in my eyes.....

To me Altima is just plain UGLY. The interior is worse than the G6, the build quality is subpar, and it does not break any grounds on anything spectacular. It is just an iteration compared to the previous one, where Ghosn was stuck in nostalgia of its success.

[turbo200]

To me Altima is just plain UGLY. The interior is worse than the G6, the build quality is subpar, and it does not break any grounds on anything spectacular. It is just an iteration compared to the previous one, where Ghosn was stuck in nostalgia of its success.

hmmm...i've inspected the build quality pretty thoroughly [maybe i wasn't being thorough enough?] and have found it to be pretty beyond reproach for the class. the worst that can be said about it though, is it's nothing special, and that's a good thing for GM fans. However, the best that can be said is that it's a competent sedan in its class and that it seperates itself by offering sportier driving traits and a great engine/tranny

Edited December 13, 2007 by turbo200

[Northstar]

Again you too miss the point. Unless the SAAB, Pontiac, Buick and Saturn were in the same building as the Chevy, the dealer will let the customer know that hey if you want those goodies we have these vehicles. A Dealer will NOT say go to the "OTHER" GM Brands and they will provide you with what you want.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that I agreed the Malibu should have NAV, dual-zone, etc., and that saying that that's what the other brands are there for is wrong.

[siegen]

The way I see it, why does navigation have to be a feature reserved for upmarket vehicles? Navigation is not a luxury feature anymore, it is a feature a lot of people need, regardless of if they own a Cadillac or an Aveo.

Honda offers nav on the Civic starting around 20k, nav on the Accord around 28k. Sure it may make up less than 10% of sales, but it's still a chunk.

[PurdueGuy]

I guess I'll hop in here & clarify my thoughts a bit (you know, the ones from like 3 pages ago. lol)

I think it would be fine for Chevy to offer Nav, bluetooth IF it makes a good business case, which it probably does since systems are probably very easily swapped - if it's offered in another car of the same platform, it should be easy to offer in the 'bu. If it involves much R&D, then the minimal sales associated with it aren't worth it - chalk it up to hopefully another sale for the other division.

Rear armrest... that's just stupidly simple - offer it. Don't even bother making it an option - design it, phase it in, and make it standard.

Dual zone climate control... what a worthless waste of space, engineering time, and money in a car like the 'bu. Unless the experience between 90's buicks and the systems today is like night & day, then the difference in temperature is an insubstantial, silly amount. I see this as a gadget for those willing to buy gadgets even when they're completely not worth the money. The 'bu doesn't need gadgets like that.

MY MAIN POINT from before is how many of you are acting about this - like it's the end of the world. You'd think Chevy came out and said "we will not offer any 6 cylinder engines - those are for the other brands." These are a few very non-critical, CONVENIENCE features that aren't available yet, and maybe won't be for this design. Seems like the appropriate response would be more like... "gee, that's kind of a shame - that'd be neat to see in the Chevy." Chevy being the volume brand, needs to hit the volume model out of the park where the volume sales are. They did that. You want Nav? Buy a Buick (please tell me Buick offers it, because that's where it needs to be, and much more the area to complain about if it's not available), or a Caddy, or a Saab. They need sales too, and maybe should have more reason for their sales than "I like how the headlights look better."

[Z-06]

hmmm...i've inspected the build quality pretty thoroughly [maybe i wasn't being thorough enough?] and have found it to be pretty beyond reproach for the class. the worst that can be said about it though, is it's nothing special, and that's a good thing for GM fans. However, the best that can be said is that it's a competent sedan in its class and that it seperates itself by offering sportier driving traits and a great engine/tranny

VQ engines altough are good, have never been super competent. Altima has best power to weight ratio in the class yet it lags in the sprint. The infiniti G35, despite almost everytime boasting the best HP, got overtook by the BMW330i. The CVT makes the engine neutered. The only best thing I liked was the old Altima with the SER package, which really had a good 6 speed. The new one has a long first gear. The stick action is notchy and uninspiring. Handling is good but again not spectacular. To me it is a step backward compared to the last generation one.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that I agreed the Malibu should have NAV, dual-zone, etc., and that saying that that's what the other brands are there for is wrong.

Sorry, I did.

The way I see it, why does navigation have to be a feature reserved for upmarket vehicles? Navigation is not a luxury feature anymore, it is a feature a lot of people need, regardless of if they own a Cadillac or an Aveo.

Honda offers nav on the Civic starting around 20k, nav on the Accord around 28k. Sure it may make up less than 10% of sales, but it's still a chunk.

Yeah those 10%, 5%, 1% numbers thing that GM makes excuse of, don't go there. If you add all these numbers, I am sure they can gain a point or two in marketshare.

[Intrepidation]

You can't get a Nav in a LaCrosse...so you have to pay for a Lucerne in order to get that.

[PurdueGuy]

You can't get a Nav in a LaCrosse...so you have to pay for a Lucerne in order to get that.

See... that seems silly. IMO, it should be optional in pretty much every vehicle offered by any of the upscale brands. Buick should be able to offer pretty much any features that have become somewhat standard for luxury vehicles, while Caddy does that plus pushes tech boundaries more.

Some of you don't like the hierarchy of brands, and it doesn't need to be purely, strictly that way, but there is logic to it and some leverage in it.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not stepping fully into this hornet's nest, but...

Isn't it common knowledge among those who like these gadgets (you know I don't care) that if you want a Nav system you are better off buying aftermarket ? That OEM systems are inferior and prone to becoming obsolete?

I can't say I really give a rat's ass, but I recall seeing that aspect of the discussion before.

As to the armrest: BFD

As to the dual zone: those are just illusion anyway.

[Z-06]

I think it would be fine for Chevy to offer Nav, bluetooth IF it makes a good business case, which it probably does since systems are probably very easily swapped - if it's offered in another car of the same platform, it should be easy to offer in the 'bu. If it involves much R&D, then the minimal sales associated with it aren't worth it - chalk it up to hopefully another sale for the other division.

Are you trying to say that the Japanese manufacturers, who are more cost driven will offer them, if they were not worth it?

Dual zone climate control... what a worthless waste of space, engineering time, and money in a car like the 'bu. Unless the experience between 90's buicks and the systems today is like night & day, then the difference in temperature is an insubstantial, silly amount. I see this as a gadget for those willing to buy gadgets even when they're completely not worth the money. The 'bu doesn't need gadgets like that.

Again, a customer does not want to be told that he is an idiot and that the gadgets he is wanting is nothing but showing stupidity. Tell that in his face, and we can see how many sales GM gets. Why do you need cell phones, didn't the world run fine without them 20 years ago? Why do you need a 30 gig IPOD? Why do you need a phone which pinches butts on the LCD screens? Why do you need internet, didn't all the things that internet does could have been done twenty years ago. The customer has changed from NEED based to WANT based. And when they have choices you betcha that he will end up at another showroom. GM should think and act likewise, then only can they bet on getting sales in the Bu. Caddy got the concept right in the CTS, and I heard it straight from the mouth of none other than Jim Taylor. That is the attitude to have and that is why the CTS will be successful. Because they gave it 100%.

You want Nav? Buy a Buick (please tell me Buick offers it, because that's where it needs to be, and much more the area to complain about if it's not available), or a Caddy, or a Saab. They need sales too, and maybe should have more reason for their sales than "I like how the headlights look better."

Again you are living in Walgreen world. Which Chevy dealer will tell the customer, go to Buick, they have those things? When a customer comes to a multiple car dealer offering other GM brands your case will hold. Not in an individual Chevy dealer, where he would try to sell a Chevy. If he convinces the customer that he/she does not need those gadgets then hats off to him. Most of time he will not be able to, and guess what, Honda or Toyota or Nissan will have +1 in sales.

[Drew Dowdell]

You can't get a Nav in a LaCrosse...so you have to pay for a Lucerne in order to get that.

The current Lacross needs to die. If the new Epsilon Lacross doesn't have NAV... then I'll be pissed.

[Camino LS6]

I knew I wasn't crazy, read this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563229

[Drew Dowdell]

Again, a customer does not want to be told that he is an idiot and that the gadgets he is wanting is nothing but showing stupidity. Tell that in his face, and we can see how many sales GM gets. Why do you need cell phones, didn't the world run fine without them 20 years ago?

Cell phones actually serve a useful purpose. Dual zone climate control does not. I have dual zone on both of my vehicles and it doesn't make a difference at all when the dials are set differently. I always set both at the same time because seeing the numbers not match drives me batty. What you're basically saying is that Chevy could put a dial in the Malibu that does nothing <which is essentially the same as dual zone> and suddenly it's that much better....

If he convinces the customer that he/she does not need those gadgets then hats off to him. Most of time he will not be able to, and guess what, Honda or Toyota or Nissan will have +1 in sales.

I'm more concerned with GM being number 1 in profitability. In fact, I'm willing to cede the number 1 spot in sales to Toyota for a few years if they're going to keep putting out products like the Tundra, Camry, Avalon, and Corolla.

[Drew Dowdell]

I knew I wasn't crazy, read this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563229

No, you're still crazy. You just happened to be right about the NAV.

The harddrive based NAV systems will have a much longer useful life though as they can be upgraded much easier.

[Z-06]

Cell phones actually serve a useful purpose. Dual zone climate control does not. I have dual zone on both of my vehicles and it doesn't make a difference at all when the dials are set differently. I always set both at the same time because seeing the numbers not match drives me batty. What you're basically saying is that Chevy could put a dial in the Malibu that does nothing <which is essentially the same as dual zone> and suddenly it's that much better....

Like I said in the earlier post. Tell the customer that. Don't tell me. I do not disagree with you. What I do not think is right is just because GM fans or GM thinks it is stupid, does not mean that the customers will. 50 years ago Detroit shunned diesel out of their game as they thought it was stupid to spend research $ on them. Now they are ruing for the chance that they could have had better prospects with it. With the brute force they were in 1970s the laws would have certainly made diesel a place in US. Diesel is now the tour de force in Europe and much of the other world. You and I face the brunt of not having a GOOD DIESEL GM car in US.

I'm more concerned with GM being number 1 in profitability. In fact, I'm willing to cede the number 1 spot in sales to Toyota for a few years if they're going to keep putting out products like the Tundra, Camry, Avalon, and Corolla.

For a car like Malibu, which is a high volume vehicle, profitability comes with volume. In a cut throat market of midsizers, profits are not as generous as truck markets. You can go for the less sales more profit version for other vehicles, not one that brings volume.

Edited December 14, 2007 by smallchevy

[Intrepidation]

$890 is a good price considering what some others charge for a Nav. Granted the after market ones are cheaper, but I hate things being tacked onto the dash. I like purposeful integration...plus units like MyGig store files and music which makes them even better.

As for Dual Zone, does it at least have rear vents? It does make a difference having vents in back.

[Camino LS6]

The only way I'll ever have Nav is if I'm forced to get it in order to get something else that I actually want. I wouldn't pay $200 for it, let alone $2000.

Most of the dual zone systems are left/right, not front/rear. The onlty "real" one I can think of is the front and rear A/C units in Suburbans - the rest are fluff.

[balthazar]

>>"I have dual zone on both of my vehicles and it doesn't make a difference at all when the dials are set differently."<<

Both my wife's Pontiac's & my Chevy's dual-zones work fine- major temp differences out of the 2 sides.

>>"50 years ago Detroit shunned diesel out of their game as they thought it was stupid to spend research $ on them. Now they are ruing for the chance that they could have had better prospects with it. With the brute force they were in 1970s the laws would have certainly made diesel a place in US. Diesel is now the tour de force in Europe and much of the other world. You and I face the brunt of not having a GOOD DIESEL GM car in US."<<

Not in cars, no, but lots of money spent on diesel trucks (and locomotives) AT LEAST 50 years back (GM diesel experience reaches into the WWII years).

But the diesel infrastructure in the U.S. was very sparse that long ago (even 30 years ago)- it was primarily the providence of farm country and interstates... not a good supply for diesel cars... and really; who would want one with gas at 30 cents and 2-4 times the power to boot?

No point here.

[Z-06]

Not in cars, no, but lots of money spent on diesel trucks (and locomotives) AT LEAST 50 years back (GM diesel experience reaches into the WWII years).

But the diesel infrastructure in the U.S. was very sparse that long ago (even 30 years ago)- it was primarily the providence of farm country and interstates... not a good supply for diesel cars... and really; who would want one with gas at 30 cents and 2-4 times the power to boot?

No point here.

So was the infrastructure in Europe. If the demand would have come, the supply would have been generated.

Imagine if GM had put expertise 20 years ago, that 2-4 time power boot advantage would have been nonexistent as it is in current world.

[Northstar]

The only way I'll ever have Nav is if I'm forced to get it in order to get something else that I actually want. I wouldn't pay $200 for it, let alone $2000.

Most of the dual zone systems are left/right, not front/rear. The onlty "real" one I can think of is the front and rear A/C units in Suburbans - the rest are fluff.

Don't the T900s have tri-zone climate control, and maybe the Lambdas too? I'm sure cars in the S-Class range probably do, too.

[Camino LS6]

Don't the T900s have tri-zone climate control, and maybe the Lambdas too? I'm sure cars in the S-Class range probably do, too.

Entirely possible.

The distinction I'm making is that the Subs used a separate HVAC unit for the rear of the (very large) vehicle interior. The other stuff is just vents and vac doors.

My Silverado has manual dual zone and offered electronic dual zone as an option - I never use it.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just tried the dual zone in the Cadillac on a run out to the store. Set my side to 70 and the passenger side to 80. There was no difference in the air coming out of the vents and the engine was at operating temp.