NEW 2009 CTS-V!!!!

[aldw]

Cadillac has DOHC in everything except the CTS-V and Escalade line. Obviously having OHV engines in the Escalade hasn't affected its sales much, and the CTS-V's niche is all about going fast. I don't see anything wrong with beating the competition at going fast if that's the name of the game, whether you do it the same exact way as them on not.

Giving the CTS-V a DOHC Ultra V8 would also help differentiate it from vehicles such as the HSV line of vehicles, as many Holden fans consider the CTS to be nothing but a glorified Holden instead of a true luxury vehicle like BMW or MB. This is where the different technical approach can pay off significantly, especially in other parts of the world.

[Z-06]

Giving the CTS-V a DOHC Ultra V8 would also help differentiate it from vehicles such as the HSV line of vehicles, as many Holden fans consider the CTS to be nothing but a glorified Holden instead of a true luxury vehicle like BMW or MB. This is where the different technical approach can pay off significantly, especially in other parts of the world.

Just like the Maybach 62S is glorified S65 or Bentley W12 is a glorified A8 W12

[smk4565]

BTW, ask Toyota how those reliable DOHC Camry and Tundra engines are going for them...

Define "compete."

Nice of you to limit your question to only the special-edition model of the 300 while leaving out that little bit of information that every 300C uses a pushrod engine. And considering how there are 300Cs everywhere... not to mention Charger and Magnum R/Ts...

Those engines are usually old enough for tuners to have figured them out by now, especially the RSX and Celica which aren't even made anymore. Plus, Scions are designed for tuning and modding anyway.

First off, I think Toyota will be fine, they still have Lexus at the top of the reliability chain, and Toyota is top 10, they still do better than 28 or so other brands. Toyota is going to be #1 in global sales, and more importantly, made nearly $15 billion in profit last year, I read they did $5 billion in profit during their last quarter. Their cars are bland but they are a profit machine, they aren't going to fade away.

I used the SRT-8 because of the higher price that puts it in line against some luxury cars and the higher hp that puts it with the M3, RS4, old CTS-V, etc. The 300C does well against $33-37,000 cars because the competition is less, buyers are not as discerning. But once you move into luxury car prices, the market is different.

I think all those tuner type Civic, Celicas, etc are junk, but there are lots of performance part upgrades for them. DOHC or pushrod makes no difference really on availability of parts and upgrades.

[aaaantoine]

I don't like the front. It's.. conservatively odd.

Yeah, there's barely any Cadillac left in that front end.

[smk4565]

So you're comparing some of the least technologically advanced pushrod V6es to one of the most famously smooth DOHC V8s... and you don't see a problem with this comparison?

Correlation is not causation buddy. Consider of the sheer faultiness of your logic before you proceed any further with this argument.

My car is a 2001, and the engine is smoother and better sounding than 05 and 06 pushrod V6s that GM uses. 8 vs 6 cylinders plays a part, but the V6 Aurora is better than the 3.4, 3.5, 3.8 liter V6s. If those pushrods are not technologically advanced, why are they on current and very recent GM cars? Pushrods are good for trucks where refinement doesn't matter as much, and they are cheap and make torque, but they shouldn't be on a Cadillac.

[smk4565]

Earlier I said how BMW has a new V8 coming and Cadillac needs a really good Ultra V8 fast to compete, and the X6 info was released today.

"The range-topping X6 xDrive50i is propelled by an all-new twin-turbo 4.4-liter V8 unit producing 407 horsepower at 5500 rpm and 446 pound-feet of torque between 1750 rpm and 4500 rpm. The sprint to 62 mph takes just 5.4 seconds and fuel economy is estimated at around 19 mpg (U.S. gallons)."

That is 5.4 seconds to 60 in an SUV, imagine it in the 5-series sedan (it will be in the 6 and 7-series as well). 19 mpg is pretty good too, that is only 1 mpg less than a CTS that gives up 100 hp and 173 lb-ft of torque.

For all the pushrod lovers that say pushrod is superior to DOHC because of low end torque, why does BMW's engine make 446 lb-ft at 1750 rpm? That is more than the Corvette 6.2 liter at a much lower rpm. Cadillac should have an engine like that

Edited December 16, 2007 by smk4565

[Z-06]

Earlier I said how BMW has a new V8 coming and Cadillac needs a really good Ultra V8 fast to compete, and the X6 info was released today.

"The range-topping X6 xDrive50i is propelled by an all-new twin-turbo 4.4-liter V8 unit producing 407 horsepower at 5500 rpm and 446 pound-feet of torque between 1750 rpm and 4500 rpm. The sprint to 62 mph takes just 5.4 seconds and fuel economy is estimated at around 19 mpg (U.S. gallons)."

That is 5.4 seconds to 60 in an SUV, imagine it in the 5-series sedan (it will be in the 6 and 7-series as well). 19 mpg is pretty good too, that is only 1 mpg less than a CTS that gives up 100 hp and 173 lb-ft of torque.

For all the pushrod lovers that say pushrod is superior to DOHC because of low end torque, why does BMW's engine make 446 lb-ft at 1750 rpm? That is more than the Corvette 6.2 liter at a much lower rpm. Cadillac should have an engine like that

Put a twin turbo in the pushrod and that number will be 644 lb-ft.

[smk4565]

Put a twin turbo in the pushrod and that number will be 644 lb-ft.

How would you know? GM hasn't turboed a a pushrod in 20 years. Aside from old school Bentley buyers, who wants a turbo pushrod anyway? 100 lb-ft of torque per liter doesn't happen in pushrods (Bentley is very close), but BMW has done it twice with gas engines, does it with their diesels and the Solstice/Sky GXP do it. DOHC is the superior engine, and the CTS-V doesn't have it.

If anyone is looking for an STS-V near Pittsburgh, there is a 2007 model with 6,000 miles for sale for just $46,750, original sticker of $78,910. $32k depreciation in less than one year is a joke, but it does make for a killer used car buy. It is cheaper than a loaded CTS.

[Z-06]

How would you know? GM hasn't turboed a a pushrod in 20 years. Aside from old school Bentley buyers, who wants a turbo pushrod anyway? 100 lb-ft of torque per liter doesn't happen in pushrods (Bentley is very close), but BMW has done it twice with gas engines, does it with their diesels and the Solstice/Sky GXP do it. DOHC is the superior engine, and the CTS-V doesn't have it.

If anyone is looking for an STS-V near Pittsburgh, there is a 2007 model with 6,000 miles for sale for just $46,750, original sticker of $78,910. $32k depreciation in less than one year is a joke, but it does make for a killer used car buy. It is cheaper than a loaded CTS.

How would I know? Go ask those tuners that put more than 1000rwhp with twin turbos in the corvettes. Have you done scientific market research to find what is the market size for twin turbo pushrods to know no one will buy them? Again the */litre is a myth, what does that ratio signify? To an automobile engineer nothing.

What has STS-V loosing value to do with pushrods?

[pow]

All this DOHC OHV BOF turbo stuff is making me sleepy, but just to throw it in there...

... inline-sixes are teh rulez!~!!

Seriously, though. The other day I had my windows down, and I didn't realize I was in 3rd instead of 5th, because the engine is just so damn smooth. Without looking at the tach, you can't tell the difference between 5000 rpm or 2500 rpm.

[dado]

Earlier I said how BMW has a new V8 coming and Cadillac needs a really good Ultra V8 fast to compete, and the X6 info was released today.

"The range-topping X6 xDrive50i is propelled by an all-new twin-turbo 4.4-liter V8 unit producing 407 horsepower at 5500 rpm and 446 pound-feet of torque between 1750 rpm and 4500 rpm. The sprint to 62 mph takes just 5.4 seconds and fuel economy is estimated at around 19 mpg (U.S. gallons)."

That is 5.4 seconds to 60 in an SUV, imagine it in the 5-series sedan (it will be in the 6 and 7-series as well). 19 mpg is pretty good too, that is only 1 mpg less than a CTS that gives up 100 hp and 173 lb-ft of torque.

For all the pushrod lovers that say pushrod is superior to DOHC because of low end torque, why does BMW's engine make 446 lb-ft at 1750 rpm? That is more than the Corvette 6.2 liter at a much lower rpm. Cadillac should have an engine like that

Well cadillac CTS will get V8 DOHC ultra(in n.a. form and Forced induction form) so there shouldn't be a problem with that. Rumors are it will have around 400 hp in N.a form and around 600 hp with FI.I don't know if there will be something in between. They could put Ultra with hlower boost and 460-480 hp in.

[smk4565]

Well cadillac CTS will get V8 DOHC ultra(in n.a. form and Forced induction form) so there shouldn't be a problem with that. Rumors are it will have around 400 hp in N.a form and around 600 hp with FI.I don't know if there will be something in between. They could put Ultra with hlower boost and 460-480 hp in.

I hope the Ultra V8 is out in the 09 model year.

M-B, 382 hp,

Lexus 380 hp,

BMW will be 407 hp, 446 lb-ft on some 09 models.

Cadillac has the 320 hp Northstar.

BMW used to always have the weakest engines and rely on steering, handling, braking to close the performance gap, now they have the most powerful cars too. Cadillac has to speed up their innovation and technology and role out new models. GM can't get complacent ever with them. This is why I say kill Hummer which doesn't sell anymore (down 30% this year) and kill Saab also a sales dud, and pump all their resources into Cadillac to make them a real global brand.

[cletus8269]

How would you know? GM hasn't turboed a a pushrod in 20 years. Aside from old school Bentley buyers, who wants a turbo pushrod anyway? 100 lb-ft of torque per liter doesn't happen in pushrods (Bentley is very close), but BMW has done it twice with gas engines, does it with their diesels and the Solstice/Sky GXP do it. DOHC is the superior engine, and the CTS-V doesn't have it.

If anyone is looking for an STS-V near Pittsburgh, there is a 2007 model with 6,000 miles for sale for just $46,750, original sticker of $78,910. $32k depreciation in less than one year is a joke, but it does make for a killer used car buy. It is cheaper than a loaded CTS.

http://www.lingenfelter.com/Lingenfelter2006ZO6TTBGB.htm

heres a tt pushrod for you. lingenfelter z06 1100hp @23psi on pump gas. pretty much sounds like an F16 flying over your head. the production package is 800hp/800ft torque. lingenfelter doesnt have any posted specs but who cares. if they can do it gm just has to dust off some books and they'll be right back on the table. car will be stupid expensive but then isnt a m series.

[dado]

Seems like most of cadillac new v8 engine will be supercharged not turbocharged. LSA in cts-v according to rumors has very similar concept like ls9 engine (supercharger and intercooler on top of supercharger).

I think that new DOHC v8 ultra/northstar 2 will also be supercharged instead of turbocharged in top version.

[sciguy_0504]

Everything but the front looks nice. The bulged hood and front facia disrupt the normal CTS' good looking creases and lines. The front looks squished...like one of those nasty looking squished-faced cats.

[Duncan]

Louder, not as smooth, vibrate more, harsher sounded when near redline, can't rev as high or fast. Need more displacement to make power; the 197 hp 3800 V6 is a prime example.

DOHC is better. I have a DOHC V8 (a GM one too) and no pushrod can match the refinement of it.

Bull.

I love my Mazda, but the KL V6 under the hood is louder than many pushrod V6 engines I've driven, without providing much more in the way of power. Granted, it's only 2.5 liters, but if DOHC were the all-out solution to every performance problem, I should be outrunning supposedly inferior 3400 Aleros and Vulcan Tauruses (Tauri?). I don't, so what's wrong there?

The 3.0-liter in my mom's '02 Camry solves most of the noise problem (possibly via insulation), but is still a little lacking in low-end torque - you have to kick down a lot on the highway, or in the hills.

You refer to the DOHC V8 you own - I assume it's a Northstar. Fantastic engine, yes - lots of power, very quiet. But at the same time, think of the car it's installed in - either an Aurora or a Cadillac. Being luxury cars, if they weren't quiet by their very nature, no one would buy them. So I chalk a lot of that up to good body and chassis design more than engine layout.

Biggest problem I have with OHC engines (single or double) is that you have to rev the wee out of them to get anything meaningful. To a certain extent, I enjoy that, but it's not always convenient. Sometimes you long to have instant power - and there's where pushrod engines come in.

I also suspect you haven't driven a newer pushrod engine - the 5.3 I tried out in a Silverado rental a couple years back was nothing but quiet (until I punched it, of course ) and didn't have anything close to what I would call noticeable vibration. And honestly, ALL engines are going to sound harsh close to the redline. I might be wrong; feel free to provide your own experiences and we'll go from there.

Ability to wind up the tach is not a judgment of performance. Looks neat on film, but what's that engine doing while you're flooring the pedal?

Higher displacement is also not a detriment, unless it uses more fuel to do the same amount of work. The 3800 will do around 30mpg all day in most situations, so I don't see your point. And in cases where economy is an issue, there's always cylinder-shutoff technologies to handle that.

Finally, ask Toyota how that 5.7 DOHC V8 is working out for them in the Tundra...SNAP!

[Duncan]

It seems like the last Pushrod you have driven is in 1985.

That's what I thought it sounded like.

But even if that's the case, my Grandpa's '90 C1500 Scottsdale was hardly a vibration-monster. Loud, yes, but then again it was a truck. I've driven the same engine (5.7 Chevy) in Caprices and not noticed a thing.

Even something as small as five years of continuing development can make a difference. Where the 2.8 in Grandma's '86 Celebrity was kind of noisy, the upgraded 3.1 in her '91 6000 was much smoother. And the same 3.1 in my sister's '01 Malibu was barely noticeable.

I don't think he's entirely wrong - OHC engines can be more refined in many cases, but modern engineering (and a concerted effort to compete) has changed the game. Quality engineering is quality engineering, regardless of the valvetrain layout.

[Duncan]

I hope the Ultra V8 is out in the 09 model year.

M-B, 382 hp,

Lexus 380 hp,

BMW will be 407 hp, 446 lb-ft on some 09 models.

Cadillac has the 320 hp Northstar.

BMW used to always have the weakest engines and rely on steering, handling, braking to close the performance gap, now they have the most powerful cars too. Cadillac has to speed up their innovation and technology and role out new models. GM can't get complacent ever with them. This is why I say kill Hummer which doesn't sell anymore (down 30% this year) and kill Saab also a sales dud, and pump all their resources into Cadillac to make them a real global brand.

I do agree with you on the last point. Sell Saab - you've already got Opel/Vauxhall and Chevrolet in Europe, so what's the point? As for Hummer, I think they'd do better as a straight-up competitor to Jeep, rather than an overpriced halo brand.

On the other hand, GM has been far from complacent with Cadillac - out of GM's American brands, they've easily had the most engineering effort thrown at them over the last two decades. It's just taken this long for it to start paying off. Changing buyer perceptions takes a lot of time, but it's finally coming around. Same thing looks like it's starting to happen for Pontiac and Buick, too.

[aldw]

Again, the CTS best needs the DOHC for better product differentiation and marketing, this really helps when looking at HSVs and such.

Edited December 24, 2007 by aldw

[smk4565]

-either an Aurora or a Cadillac. Being luxury cars, if they weren't quiet by their very nature, no one would buy them. So I chalk a lot of that up to good body and chassis design more than engine layout.

Biggest problem I have with OHC engines (single or double) is that you have to rev the wee out of them to get anything meaningful. To a certain extent, I enjoy that, but it's not always convenient. Sometimes you long to have instant power - and there's where pushrod engines come in.

I also suspect you haven't driven a newer pushrod engine - the 5.3 I tried out in a Silverado rental a couple years back was nothing but quiet (until I punched it, of course ) and didn't have anything close to what I would call noticeable vibration. And honestly, ALL engines are going to sound harsh close to the redline. I might be wrong; feel free to provide your own experiences and we'll go from there.

Finally, ask Toyota how that 5.7 DOHC V8 is working out for them in the Tundra...SNAP!

To the first point about if a luxury car wasn't quiet, no one would buy them, I agree. So why is the CTS-V (still a luxury car) getting a pushrod, not something more refined? If the CTS-V comes out at 66-67 decibels inside at 70 mph, I'll retract that statement.

You don't need to rev all DOHC to get power, even a lot of the naturally aspirated ones make decent power off the line, and passing power is used more often anyway. The BMW twin-turbo six makes 300 lb-ft under 2000 rpm. BMW's new V8 makes 446 lb-ft at 1750 rpm, the Z06 can't even do that.

My engine at 5500-6000 rpm still sounds smooth with no harshness.

I never drove a 5.3, I am sure it is fine for a pickup truck, but I'll pass on one. Toyota is probably having issues with the Tundra engine since that whole truck is new, it isn't because it is a DOHC engine.

[smk4565]

I do agree with you on the last point. Sell Saab - you've already got Opel/Vauxhall and Chevrolet in Europe, so what's the point? As for Hummer, I think they'd do better as a straight-up competitor to Jeep, rather than an overpriced halo brand.

On the other hand, GM has been far from complacent with Cadillac - out of GM's American brands, they've easily had the most engineering effort thrown at them over the last two decades. It's just taken this long for it to start paying off. Changing buyer perceptions takes a lot of time, but it's finally coming around. Same thing looks like it's starting to happen for Pontiac and Buick, too.

I've driven the 06 Impala, 3800s, LS1s, 3400s. Hardly any manufactures use pushrods in cars, there aren't really that many to sample from, my experience with them is usually in rental cars.

Hummer hurts CAFE more than any other product they have. I don't see how a rear drive Impala is impossible with CAFE (rear drive BMW 535d gets 42 mpg highway in Europe), when Hummer fits into their CAFE plans. They simply can't fund 10 brands, while Toyota funds 3 with the same amount of money. Buick has 2 sedans that don't belong in this decade and a 4000 a month selling SUV, whoppee. They sold 900,000 units in one year 20 years ago, they are under 200k a year now, their days are numbered. Pontiac is a fleet sale brand plus the Solstice.

I disagree that Cadillac has been funded well. They still use the Northstar while BMW and Mercedes have updated or changed V8s 3-4 times each in the past 15 years. The Northstar was a great engine in the 90s, but they need something new. They still don't have a 3-series competitor, or a real E-class or S-class competitor, and they are too nervous to let go of the 70 year old DTS buyers. Cadillac can't change perception while the DTS or current STS are in production. I want to seem Cadillac as the best car in the world again, but the current plan is too slow and not aggressive enough.

[cletus8269]

give it a cookie. now what does that same engine do without the hair dryers on it? what does a twin turbo vette do, more air means more power every time. it aint the same.

[smk4565]

I talked to some GM rep today at the Cadillac dealer, he said the LS7 was scraped because they felt 505 hp wasn't enough for the CTS-V, and it may be near 600 hp, but GM hasn't said anything official yet. He said don't rule out all wheel drive either, but all that was rumor, he didn't have any official info.

[balthazar]

>>"M-B, 382 hp,

Lexus 380 hp,

BMW will be 407 hp on some 09 models."<<

Cadillac 469 HP on some models.

When will lexus & BMW compete ?

[smk4565]

>>"M-B, 382 hp,

Lexus 380 hp,

BMW will be 407 hp on some 09 models."<<

Cadillac 469 HP on some models.

When will lexus & BMW compete ?

469 hp on one model, and that isn't their mainstream V8. M-B has 612 hp and 724 lb-ft as their top engine.

Cadillac's non V-series cars should have 380 hp and get 19 mpg average. V-series should be in the 500 hp and considered elite cars. I've seen 07 STS-Vs for sale for $46,000, that is $32,000 in depreciation in one year. Cadillacs would hold 90% of value over 1 year if they were a desirable and sought after car.

Lexus despite building a bunch of over rated, dressed up Toyotas is #1 in sales in the US, BMW is #2 in US luxury sales and sell over a million cars a year worldwide. Cadillac is #4 in their own country and less than 300,000 units worldwide. If GM managed Cadillac right they could sell over 500,000 units a year, with none of them costing under $35,000.

Edited December 28, 2007 by smk4565

[balthazar]

>>"469 hp on one model, and that isn't their mainstream V8."<<

And 443 HP on another model, and 400-hp on the outgoing/circa 500 HP on the incoming of yet another model.

But the first two I referenced are indeed based on Cadillac's mainstream V-8, the Northstar. There is no reason to omit them in this discussion.

>>"M-B has 612 hp and 724 lb-ft as their top engine."<<

Not mainstream, not a V-8; it's a radically-boosted (22+ PSI) twin-turbocharged V-12 from a bought-out aftermarket tuner company.

[smk4565]

But BMW's non M cars will have 407 hp, 446 lb-ft V8 (555i, 755i, X5, X6). Then they have the M3 with 414 hp, M5/M6 at 500 and going up in 2010 with the new generation, and the 7-series is getting a new V12.

for $60,000 in an STS you get 320 hp. You get 382 in M-B, and 360 in 2008 (407 in 2009) for BMW. The XLR for $78,000 gets you an interior worse than the CTS and 320 hp. The Mercedes SL (which I know costs more but you can price high when you've been class leader for 20 years) is 382 horsepower base, 493 midrange, and up to 612 in AMG.

I know Cadillac is trying, but they have to do more to compete with those brands. Although I think the real battle will be in gas mileage, not horsepower. If Cadillac wants to be #1 in the US and #3-4 in the world they need 2 cars that get 40 mpg highway. People can't ignore a 40 mpg luxury car when the rest get 26.

[Drew Dowdell]

Those 'DOHC fetishes' are now 3/4s of the Luxury/performance market, and anyone who ignores that is effectively damned in the marketplace.

Are you saying that Cadillac could have 25% market share in a segment occupied by Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar?

All I've got to say to that is :sign0200:

[Drew Dowdell]

If anyone is looking for an STS-V near Pittsburgh.

I can't believe we share a city.

[Drew Dowdell]

To the first point about if a luxury car wasn't quiet, no one would buy them, I agree. So why is the CTS-V (still a luxury car) getting a pushrod, not something more refined? If the CTS-V comes out at 66-67 decibels inside at 70 mph, I'll retract that statement.

You don't need to rev all DOHC to get power, even a lot of the naturally aspirated ones make decent power off the line, and passing power is used more often anyway. The BMW twin-turbo six makes 300 lb-ft under 2000 rpm. BMW's new V8 makes 446 lb-ft at 1750 rpm, the Z06 can't even do that.

My engine at 5500-6000 rpm still sounds smooth with no harshness.

I never drove a 5.3, I am sure it is fine for a pickup truck, but I'll pass on one. Toyota is probably having issues with the Tundra engine since that whole truck is new, it isn't because it is a DOHC engine.

My 5.3 Avalanche is much smoother and quieter than my 3.6 DOHC CTS.

The smoothest, quietest engine I've ever driven behind was a '94 Roadmaster LT-1. Buick Lucerne V6 is a close second.

[Z-06]

First of all a I-6 and a V-8 is a superior engine when you compare it to the NVH of a V-6.

By comparing BMW I-6, to a Pushrod V-6 and expecting it to be as good as the I-6 is assinine.

Go and sit in a Infiniti. That VQ engine is depressing. It sounds like a eunuch howling while having his balls cut. It amazes me how it has won the Ward's auto best engine for this long.

The 3.1 in my lumina sounds much sweeter than the VQ.

It seems like you have never sat in a Pushrod V8 driven car, and yet you are clamoring it to be bad. I have driven the Mercedes Benz E550 and honest to god, I love the LS6 for its manner. And Mercedes has been raved for having a very good DOHC V8.

[smk4565]

My 5.3 Avalanche is much smoother and quieter than my 3.6 DOHC CTS.

The smoothest, quietest engine I've ever driven behind was a '94 Roadmaster LT-1. Buick Lucerne V6 is a close second.

I can believe that about the CTS, I've driven the 3.6 liter in the Aura and thought it was whiny and could have sounded better. It was peppy, though.

I haven't driven the Lucerne, sitting it in it at the auto show is enough to make me laugh at how bad it is. I have driven the LeSabre, bad engine, bad handling, bad car.

STS-Vs are dirt cheap in Pittsburgh, you can get an 06 or 07 STS-V for what a CTS DI costs.

[smk4565]

First of all a I-6 and a V-8 is a superior engine when you compare it to the NVH of a V-6.

By comparing BMW I-6, to a Pushrod V-6 and expecting it to be as good as the I-6 is assinine.

Go and sit in a Infiniti. That VQ engine is depressing. It sounds like a eunuch howling while having his balls cut. It amazes me how it has won the Ward's auto best engine for this long.

The 3.1 in my lumina sounds much sweeter than the VQ.

It seems like you have never sat in a Pushrod V8 driven car, and yet you are clamoring it to be bad. I have driven the Mercedes Benz E550 and honest to god, I love the LS6 for its manner. And Mercedes has been raved for having a very good DOHC V8.

I've driven the LS1 V8, good power, but rough and loud. Mercedes uses a SOHC 3 valve per cylinder V8.

Maybe Cadillac should do an I6 engine. I like DOHC V8s the most personally.

[Z-06]

I've driven the LS1 V8, good power, but rough and loud. Mercedes uses a SOHC 3 valve per cylinder V8.

Maybe Cadillac should do an I6 engine. I like DOHC V8s the most personally.

Get your info straight buddy.

DOHC 32 Valve

8 x 3 = 24 not 32, right?

[smk4565]

My mistake, I was thinking of the old Mercedes engine, the 4.3 and 5.0 liter V8s were 3 valve per cylinder, and their V12 is a 36 valve, 3 valve per cylinder.

[balthazar]

>>"You get... 360 in 2008 (407 in 2009) for BMW."<<

The 5-series starts off with a measly 230 HP- hardly aspirational or competitive from a numbers standpoint; STS starts at 302 HP. Top 5-series HP rating is only 360, it's 469 in the STS. Next year's 407 HP is still far short, numbers-wise.

>>"...for $60,000 in an STS you get 320 hp."<<

STS V-8 MSRP starts @ $52K, to get the 360 HP in the beeemer, you need to ante up to $58K (no doubt that can push over $70K), otherwise you're at only 300 HP.

>>"You get 382 in M-B..."<<

Again, it'll cost you another $7K over the STS V-8, otherwise the e-class starts with a only 268 HP (at $8K over the STS's 302 HP). Only clear leader here numbers-wise is the 507-HP M-B- big-time bragging rights over the BMW... that is; if that's how you make you car-buying decisions.

Edited December 29, 2007 by balthazar

[cletus8269]

I've driven the LS1 V8, good power, but rough and loud.

um... its supposed to be. it was the leading powertrain for the vette and then so on... its an extremely versatile engine that can be tuned indefinately. 1000hp isnt unheard of in an LS1 f-body. they are taking the hotrodding community by storm. what once was the 350 crate domain is now the LS1's claim to fame. you want a smoother quieter LS1, i am more than sure it could be done but why stifle a perfectly good motor? it replaced the troublesome LT1. google LS1 engine swaps and i am sure there will be some interesting projects in there. bottom line the LS engine platform is infoullable, gobs of tourque, perfect flagship power.

[Nick]

>>"You get... 360 in 2008 (407 in 2009) for BMW."<<

The 5-series starts off with a measly 230 HP- hardly aspirational or competitive from a numbers standpoint; STS starts at 302 HP. Top 5-series HP rating is only 360, it's 469 in the STS. Next year's 407 HP is still far short, numbers-wise.

You seem to be forgetting the 500 hp M5 engine. I mean, if you're going to compare top performing engines anyway. In terms of mainstream engines (which BMW offers 3 choices, ranging from the 230 hp I6, to the 300 hp TT I6, to a 360 hp V8), I'd say BMW has the powertrain advantage...excuse the pun.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Nick

[turbo200]

>>"You get... 360 in 2008 (407 in 2009) for BMW."<<

The 5-series starts off with a measly 230 HP- hardly aspirational or competitive from a numbers standpoint; STS starts at 302 HP. Top 5-series HP rating is only 360, it's 469 in the STS. Next year's 407 HP is still far short, numbers-wise.

>>"...for $60,000 in an STS you get 320 hp."<<

STS V-8 MSRP starts @ $52K, to get the 360 HP in the beeemer, you need to ante up to $58K (no doubt that can push over $70K), otherwise you're at only 300 HP.

>>"You get 382 in M-B..."<<

Again, it'll cost you another $7K over the STS V-8, otherwise the e-class starts with a only 268 HP (at $8K over the STS's 302 HP). Only clear leader here numbers-wise is the 507-HP M-B- big-time bragging rights over the BMW... that is; if that's how you make you car-buying decisions.

you're running a losing case. Cadillac has been left behind in the horsepower wars. As a matter of fact, Cadillac's refusal to compete in the horsepower wars seems to coincide with thier lack of presence in the upper echeleon of luxury cars. As other carmakers have moved up and improved thier image, Cadillac has released one significant but cheap car, the CTS.

All these price discussions with the STS comparing horsepower numbers is irrelevant. STS gives up a lot in terms of style, finish, and features to its competitors.

[smk4565]

What is worse than Cadillac losing the horsepower war is losing the fuel efficiency war. Mercedes offers a 50 state diesel car, and is working on more plus hybrids, BMW is bringing their diesels here soon and hybrids and Lexus has the hybrids. Those brands have "green" image and/or technology image which Cadillac lacks right now. Cadillac also lacks in the upper echelon of cars, and has too many base price of $44,000 or less sedans.

BMW and Mercedes cost $8000 more than an STS because they use better wood, better leather, better plastic and have more current technology. The STS is more in a class with the Acura RL.

I agree that the 230 hp 5-series is wimpy, but it gets good gas mileage, and in most parts of the world, like Europe, that is important. BMW designs cars to sell everywhere in the world, not just the USA and Canada like Cadillac does. BMWs are usually low in weight and have always had decent acceleration without being the class leader in power.

The new 5-series comes out in about a year, the base engine may change. The 407 hp V8 takes over as their main V8, the M5 could be 738 hp with twin turbos if they wanted too, they already work with a tuner to make custom ones like that.

Cadillac has the world's biggest (maybe 2nd biggest) auto maker and 105 years of history behind them, there is no reason they shouldn't be on an even field with M-B or BMW. But GM seems too cheap or too afraid to compete.

[turbo200]

What is worse than Cadillac losing the horsepower war is losing the fuel efficiency war. Mercedes offers a 50 state diesel car, and is working on more plus hybrids, BMW is bringing their diesels here soon and hybrids and Lexus has the hybrids. Those brands have "green" image and/or technology image which Cadillac lacks right now. Cadillac also lacks in the upper echelon of cars, and has too many base price of $44,000 or less sedans.

BMW and Mercedes cost $8000 more than an STS because they use better wood, better leather, better plastic and have more current technology. The STS is more in a class with the Acura RL.

I agree that the 230 hp 5-series is wimpy, but it gets good gas mileage, and in most parts of the world, like Europe, that is important. BMW designs cars to sell everywhere in the world, not just the USA and Canada like Cadillac does. BMWs are usually low in weight and have always had decent acceleration without being the class leader in power.

The new 5-series comes out in about a year, the base engine may change. The 407 hp V8 takes over as their main V8, the M5 could be 738 hp with twin turbos if they wanted too, they already work with a tuner to make custom ones like that.

Cadillac has the world's biggest (maybe 2nd biggest) auto maker and 105 years of history behind them, there is no reason they shouldn't be on an even field with M-B or BMW. But GM seems too cheap or too afraid to compete.

the only reason these carmakers would have more of a green image would be due to PR and a better "tech" image. Cadillac does have hybrid and diesel tech coming, but they just haven't had the number of models MB and BMW have, and the number of investment dollars to debut tech. things like the hydrogen powered BMW that is in the hands of 200 rich people and 100 famous people really help sell the idea that BMW is on the cutting edge of tech....when the reality is their hybrid tech is borrowed from GM.

in diesels and hybrids Cadillac will soon have entrants, it's just a pity that the only model will be a seemingly low profile CTS, compared to the $90k+ sedans and SUVS the competitors have that everybody esteems to own. Of course, the hybrid Escalade will make a much bigger splash and media impact than people on this board are giving it credit for. Escalade is like a freakin Camry in LA, another family car, for the wealthy and bling-showing....that it's a hybrid and retains its style and sophistication will be a super plus for them.

[smk4565]

Cadillac does have hybrid and diesel tech coming, but they just haven't had the number of models MB and BMW have, and the number of investment dollars to debut tech.

That is the problem, "Cadillac has it coming" while the others have been doing it for a couple years. Cadillac is always playing catch up.

[aldw]

What is worse than Cadillac losing the horsepower war is losing the fuel efficiency war. Mercedes offers a 50 state diesel car, and is working on more plus hybrids, BMW is bringing their diesels here soon and hybrids and Lexus has the hybrids. Those brands have "green" image and/or technology image which Cadillac lacks right now. Cadillac also lacks in the upper echelon of cars, and has too many base price of $44,000 or less sedans.

BMW and Mercedes cost $8000 more than an STS because they use better wood, better leather, better plastic and have more current technology. The STS is more in a class with the Acura RL.

I agree that the 230 hp 5-series is wimpy, but it gets good gas mileage, and in most parts of the world, like Europe, that is important. BMW designs cars to sell everywhere in the world, not just the USA and Canada like Cadillac does. BMWs are usually low in weight and have always had decent acceleration without being the class leader in power.

The new 5-series comes out in about a year, the base engine may change. The 407 hp V8 takes over as their main V8, the M5 could be 738 hp with twin turbos if they wanted too, they already work with a tuner to make custom ones like that.

Cadillac has the world's biggest (maybe 2nd biggest) auto maker and 105 years of history behind them, there is no reason they shouldn't be on an even field with M-B or BMW. But GM seems too cheap or too afraid to compete.

It'll take a while for the new diesels to show up on NA Caddys, the Ultra V8 can't come soon enough, and more lightweight materials need to be used, but the interiors are on the right track.

[balthazar]

>>"You seem to be forgetting the 500 hp M5 engine."<<

Nope- merely 'forgot' it just like smk 'forgot' the STS-V's 469 HP engine.

>>"In terms of mainstream engines (which BMW offers 3 choices, ranging from the 230 hp I6, to the 300 hp TT I6, to a 360 hp V8), I'd say BMW has the powertrain advantage..."<<

I guess; if the lack of a low-200 HP engine in a $60K luxury car is a huge turn-on in the segment.

>>"All these price discussions with the STS comparing horsepower numbers is irrelevant. "<<

I agree- as it is with HP & $ RE bmw & m-b, but someone keeps bringing it back up....

[CaddyXLR-V]

That is the problem, "Cadillac has it coming" while the others have been doing it for a couple years. Cadillac is always playing catch up.

Just like Lexus playing catch up with the IS-F? Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Lexus late to that party?

[smk4565]

Lexus is playing catch up in the performance luxury segment, but they are leading in the hybrid arena and the LS460 has a lot of technology like parking itself and Mark Levinson stereo. Plus Lexus hasn't been around that long, they have grown a ton in 15 years.

The Lexus LS-A test mule just ran the Nurburgring in 7 minutes 24 seconds, that is an insane time, 16 seconds faster than the Z06, and faster than the 911 GT3. If the production version is that fast, that will give Lexus some performance credibility they currently lack.

I never forgot the STS-V's engine, I was only comparing the Northstar against the BMW 4.8 liter, M-B 5.5 liter and Lexus 4.6 liter since those are their main V8s. The V-series engines should be compared to M and AMG engines.

And the 230 hp engine in the 5-series is $44,000, for $60,000 you get a V8. BMW is clearly doing something right, that 5-series outsells the STS by a ton and the 5-series is at the end of its life cycle.

Unfortunately, the STS is an irrelevant car in the luxury segment, I don't even think the Germans see it as competition. Which is a shame, because Cadillac has better styling than the imports and a huge corporation behind them, but they can't make a car that performs like a 5-series and has an interior like a Jaguar XF.

Edited December 30, 2007 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

That is the problem, "Cadillac has it coming" while the others have been doing it for a couple years. Cadillac is always playing catch up.

uh, how many hybrid or diesels are offered by BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or Lexus in the US?

Mercedes has two very slow selling diesels and Lexus has two hybrids... one of which is nearly universally panned.

everyone else has nada.

stop being down on Cadillac

[Drew Dowdell]

Lexus is playing catch up in the performance luxury segment, but they are leading in the hybrid arena and the LS460 has a lot of technology like parking itself and Mark Levinson stereo. Plus Lexus hasn't been around that long, they have grown a ton in 15 years.

And the DTS had night vision and Bose stereo.

Touting the Mark Levinson as some great thing makes you sound like Ricardo Montelban touting "rich, Corinthian leather"

[CaddyXLR-V]

Lexus is playing catch up in the performance luxury segment, but they are leading in the hybrid arena and the LS460 has a lot of technology like parking itself and Mark Levinson stereo. Plus Lexus hasn't been around that long, they have grown a ton in 15 years.

The Lexus LS-A test mule just ran the Nurburgring in 7 minutes 24 seconds, that is an insane time, 16 seconds faster than the Z06, and faster than the 911 GT3. If the production version is that fast, that will give Lexus some performance credibility they currently lack.

I never forgot the STS-V's engine, I was only comparing the Northstar against the BMW 4.8 liter, M-B 5.5 liter and Lexus 4.6 liter since those are their main V8s. The V-series engines should be compared to M and AMG engines.

And the 230 hp engine in the 5-series is $44,000, for $60,000 you get a V8. BMW is clearly doing something right, that 5-series outsells the STS by a ton and the 5-series is at the end of its life cycle.

Unfortunately, the STS is an irrelevant car in the luxury segment, I don't even think the Germans see it as competition. Which is a shame, because Cadillac has better styling than the imports and a huge corporation behind them, but they can't make a car that performs like a 5-series and has an interior like a Jaguar XF.

Lexus is also playing catchup on styling too. The IS is the only Lexus that looks good, and it still can't compare to the CTS. I can't think of any Lexus that looks best in it's class. Why is having hybrids the only qualifying factor?

Lexus has been down on performance and styling. Isn't that 2 of the most important factors in luxury cars? But since they have hybrids everything is ok?

Cadillac focused their effort on areas they feel are more important. Reviews are saying about the 3 series, that while the interior is nice, it is no Cadillac, referring to the CTS. I agree with some things you say, like Cadillac needing a non-V series 350+hp V8 option, but alot of the rest is pure BS. The current Cadillac is a new company also. There's pre-CTS, and post-CTS. The way I see it, Cadillac in it's current form, is only about 6 years old. Cadillac went from being compared to Lincolns, to being a serious threat to BMW/Mercedes/Lexus in 6 years. Give them credit where credit is due.

Edited December 30, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[cletus8269]

Just like Lexus playing catch up with the IS-F? Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Lexus late to that party?

hehe how do you play catch up with a luxury car sporting fake exhaust? its like tripping yourself running to first base.

The Lexus LS-A test mule just ran the Nurburgring in 7 minutes 24 seconds, that is an insane time, 16 seconds faster than the Z06, and faster than the 911 GT3. If the production version is that fast, that will give Lexus some performance credibility they currently lack.

with a v10 560hp and $170,000 price tag i would hope that car could outrun the z06... i dont think caddy should compete with that kind of vehicle considering maybe 300 will be made. if they do decide that they should compete with that i guess thats where the cien would fall into play. but if a company is trying to pull itself out of a hole, wouldnt it be better to sacrifice 300 customers to get 3000 to 5000?