NEW 2009 CTS-V!!!!

[smk4565]

What a future M5 will have doesn't matter right now, if it matters at all. The CTS-V is the luxury car equivalent to the Zo6, the best bang for the buck in its segment. If the CTS-V bests the performance of a same model year M5 ever, it is a big bonus to that formula rather than a requirement.

Fuel-efficient Caddies are a nicety , not a marketing requirement.

The CTS-V comes out as a 2009 model, the M5 will be a 2010 or 2011 model, probably 2011, so that gives the CTS-V 2 years to hang with the current car. The current M5 (which is 4 years old already) is 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and without a speed limiter can go over 200 mph, which even the Z06 can't do. Putting the CTS-V against an $85,000 car is kind of setting it up to fail.

Cadillac can out-torque the M5, but BMW is the master of steering, suspension and gearing, and lower weight usually leads to better handling, that is why the Corvette stacks up so well against so many cars. M5/E63/RS6 buyers I don't think care about price, they care about image of the car, and ultimate performance. Cadillac price cutting the elite brands won't work, they have to build a better car.

Fuel efficient Cadillacs I think can put them back on top as a technological leader. Putting a lot of horsepower in a car is easy, but getting 30 or even 40 mpg is not. If they have a 35-40 mpg BTS, and 35 mpg CTS, while the rest of the cars in that class are near 20 mpg, it gives them a huge competitive advantage and could lead to a lot of sales, especially from people that previously didn't consider a Cadillac or American car. A V-series might sell 5,000 a year, but a 35 mpg luxury car might sell 50,000. It is something they must work on, Mercedes is working on a hybrid diesel S-class that gets nearly 40 mpg, that is Civic hybrid gas mileage, in a full size car.

Edited December 9, 2007 by smk4565

[turbo200]

truth of the matter is though smk's requirements for the CTS-V can go a little far, the reality is if the CTS-V can't blow away the current M5 and beat the next one, even at a lower price, then this CTS-V will fade quietly into the background. The way to stay in the limelight is to totally blow away the skeptics, and that would be with something radical that outperforms the current M5, in some ways.

On another note, I do hope Cadillac realizes the potential it has and starts using weight savings materials [and improves on the uplevel feel of the car/interior, I'll elaborate on how Caddy didn't do it this time around in another post], while charging more for thier cars, as long as the performance and sophistication notch is moved up. The way the CTS has really been marketed against the 5-series but priced like a 3-series doesn't give me hope for Cadillac's ambition to be "high end"

Edited December 9, 2007 by turbo200

[Nick]

If they can keep it close to the 4000lb mark then they will be ok. The M5 weighs slightly over 4k. The RS4 weighs slightly less than 4k. The RS6 is a pig and weighs in closer to 4500lbs (granted, that's in wagon form.) The E63 weighs slightly more than the M5 coming closer to 4100 lbs.

These are all fairly heavy cars. Adding in an LS engine may actually decrease weight over the base car so who knows...

[Camino LS6]

The LS engines are lighter than the Northstars.

If the CTS-V eclipses the M5 in some performance aspects (horsepower) as promised, it will go a long way toward enabling GM to ease the price upward. Thus, the analogy to the Zo6.

I believe that they know what they are doing and that the CTS-V will stun with its numbers once tested. The price advantage over the M5 will be significant enough for even luxury buyers to take notice while all the while offering a distinct Cadillac style instead of the "me too" approach taken by others.

There is reason for optimism here.

[turbo200]

M5/E63/RS6 buyers I don't think care about price, they care about image of the car, and ultimate performance. Cadillac price cutting the elite brands won't work, they have to build a better car.

yep. anyone can price a car under the competition. but building a car that makes the competition sweat and pricing it under them is a feat. Cadillac has to win hardcore people who see nothin but the letters BMW and blue and white colrs as truly exotic and upscale

[Lamar]

The M5 is obviously the target for the CTS-V. If you believe anything to the contrary, you are fooling yourself. The nature of the car speaks for itself and Caddy has other plans for a 3 series competitor.

Thank you.

PS... imagine a BTS-V...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Cadillac better cut some weight and get a better transmission and interior then. The M5 is 4012 pounds and has 7 gears. Plus a new M5 is going to have more aluminum and carbon fiber to cut weight, and a rumored 600+ hp twin turbo V10. The 5-series is getting an 8 speed automatic, not sure what the M5 will get, it might stay 7.

The CTS isn't equipped to match up with that car, I wish it was, but it isn't right now. I'd like to see a 35 mpg CTS soon too. The 535d (on sale in Europe, coming here soon) beats an Aveo or Camry hybrid in gas mileage, while equaling the CTS DI's 0-60 time, Cadillac has to get to work on high mileage vehicles as well.

I think they could do a great BTS, but it is taking an awfully long time, and I don't know if they will make the BTS interior better than the 08 CTS interior, while offering better than XLR performance with the mid-level and V engines.

The same engine will be going into the Blue Devil Corvette, but will be making about 650hp. I see no reason why GM couldn't give that to the CTS-V if necessary when BMW comes out with their 600hp M5. More speeds does not always equal more performance. Everytime the transmission shifts, no power is being sent to the wheels.

[smk4565]

I don't think the CTS-V will blow away the current M5, which means it will fade away once the new M5 comes out. It isn't just horsepower either, it is how the car performs and feels. The M3 has 414 hp, yet a 4.3 seconds 0-60 time. The CTS-V will face the same problem as the CTS, it will be priced with the M3, but not be able to perform like it. BMW and Mercedes had a lot of reputation and image behind them as well, it is very hard to break through that. Price cutting doesn't do it either, the Mercedes S-class is the most expensive car in it's class, yet it sells well in that segment. Cadillac has to rebuild an image of being an elite car. The future product plans don't seem to convey that though.

I hope the BTS-V doesn't have a pushrod also. Cadillac will never top the elite cars with parts from Chevy (Zeta DTS).

[Northstar]

I don't think the CTS-V will blow away the current M5, which means it will fade away once the new M5 comes out. It isn't just horsepower either, it is how the car performs and feels. The M3 has 414 hp, yet a 4.3 seconds 0-60 time. The CTS-V will face the same problem as the CTS, it will be priced with the M3, but not be able to perform like it. BMW and Mercedes had a lot of reputation and image behind them as well, it is very hard to break through that. Price cutting doesn't do it either, the Mercedes S-class is the most expensive car in it's class, yet it sells well in that segment. Cadillac has to rebuild an image of being an elite car. The future product plans don't seem to convey that though.

I hope the BTS-V doesn't have a pushrod also. Cadillac will never top the elite cars with parts from Chevy (Zeta DTS).

Oh my, where to begin...

Who says the CTS-V won't be able to perform with the M3? Let's wait and see some test numbers before we make any statements like that, mmkay?

What future product plans have you seen? Any? Or are you just guessing? Not long ago (within the last year), the "ULS" was on track to go into production in a couple years, I don't know about now. Is that not an elite car? An S-Class competitor?

So Zeta is a Chevy-only product, and therefore it sucks? I'll remind you once again(for the 1,000,001 time): MT said the SS-V reminds them of one of their favorite cars: the last-gen M5. What platform does it use? Zeta. Is that not an elite enough car for you? It's quite obvious that Zeta is a world-class platform for any car, so get your facts straight and quit BSing.

[smk4565]

Oh my, where to begin...

Who says the CTS-V won't be able to perform with the M3? Let's wait and see some test numbers before we make any statements like that, mmkay?

What future product plans have you seen? Any? Or are you just guessing? Not long ago (within the last year), the "ULS" was on track to go into production in a couple years, I don't know about now. Is that not an elite car? An S-Class competitor?

So Zeta is a Chevy-only product, and therefore it sucks? I'll remind you once again(for the 1,000,001 time): MT said the SS-V reminds them of one of their favorite cars: the last-gen M5. What platform does it use? Zeta. Is that not an elite enough car for you? It's quite obvious that Zeta is a world-class platform for any car, so get your facts straight and quit BSing.

We can wait for performance numbers, but since the 3-series is a better performer than the CTS, it is likely the M3 will be better than a CTS-V in that regard. The M3 is around 3400 pounds, vs 4250 for a STS-V. We'll see what the CTS-V weighs, I am guessing 4100-4200.

The SS-V reminds them of a 2002 M5, and they are going to release a Cadillac on it on 2011 and compete with BMW's 2011 cars. Building similar to what BMW did 10 years earlier is not going to challenge them.

GM is going to have the G8 (and Holdens), Impala, Camaro, maybe a Buick, the DTS (or whatever it is called) and a ULS all on the same platform. That is some massive badge engineering. The ULS should be an exclusive all aluminum chassis. The S-class is $88-181,000, Cadillac won't get people to pay that much for a car based on a $26,000 Pontiac/Chevy no matter what engine or what interior they put on it.

The BRX, CTC coupe, CTS-V and Escalade hybrid are the only future vehicles on Edmunds.com for Cadillac. BMW, Audi and Mercedes have about 10 each by 2010. The Alpha and Zeta Cadillacs will be key, but are a long way out.

[Drew Dowdell]

We can wait for performance numbers, but since the 3-series is a better performer than the CTS, it is likely the M3 will be better than a CTS-V in that regard. The M3 is around 3400 pounds, vs 4250 for a STS-V. We'll see what the CTS-V weighs, I am guessing 4100-4200.

You really put the ASS in assumption. And of course your numbers are comparing apples to a cheeseburgers again.....

The current M3 is 3400s. However, the current M3 is still based on the previous 3-series platform. The old 330ci weighed 3285lbs., but gained 300lbs when it moved to the new 335i platform.... So now the new M3 is looking at a 300lb. weight gain even before you consider that it's moving from an I6 to a V8. The 530i gains 400lbs when it gains the V8 to become a 550i.

Now I'm sure that BMW will do some weight saving aluminum bits and pieces here and there, but they can't do 700lbs worth. My assumption is that the M3 will end up right around 4,000 lbs. Considering that the M3 will be anywhere from 80hp to 120hp short of the CTS-V's speculated horsepower, that 200lb weight difference doesn't seem all that big anymore.

Now, that is my assumption.... but at least I put some thought and research into it instead of randomly spewing irrelevant or inconsistent numbers around the forum.

[Drew Dowdell]

yep. anyone can price a car under the competition. but building a car that makes the competition sweat and pricing it under them is a feat. Cadillac has to win hardcore people who see nothin but the letters BMW and blue and white colrs as truly exotic and upscale

Cadillac will never win those buyers because their desire is based on perceived image rather than actual merit.

[Drew Dowdell]

So Zeta is a Chevy-only product, and therefore it sucks? I'll remind you once again(for the 1,000,001 time): MT said the SS-V reminds them of one of their favorite cars: the last-gen M5. What platform does it use? Zeta. Is that not an elite enough car for you? It's quite obvious that Zeta is a world-class platform for any car, so get your facts straight and quit BSing.

Didn't you know you're not allowed to compare cars that may be the same size, have the same performance, have the same features, and have equal quality and options.... but are priced thousands apart?

If the car is ~30k and RWD, the only car you're allowed to compare it to is the 3-series. kthnxbye.

[aldw]

Caddy really needs to use more lightweight parts for its top-line models to improve competitiveness, plus more exclusive components (with superior performance) to sway import intenders. This especially means the Ultra V8 for the CTS-V must outperform the 'plebian' pooprod LS engines.

[Northstar]

We can wait for performance numbers, but since the 3-series is a better performer than the CTS, it is likely the M3 will be better than a CTS-V in that regard. The M3 is around 3400 pounds, vs 4250 for a STS-V. We'll see what the CTS-V weighs, I am guessing 4100-4200.

The SS-V reminds them of a 2002 M5, and they are going to release a Cadillac on it on 2011 and compete with BMW's 2011 cars. Building similar to what BMW did 10 years earlier is not going to challenge them.

GM is going to have the G8 (and Holdens), Impala, Camaro, maybe a Buick, the DTS (or whatever it is called) and a ULS all on the same platform. That is some massive badge engineering. The ULS should be an exclusive all aluminum chassis. The S-class is $88-181,000, Cadillac won't get people to pay that much for a car based on a $26,000 Pontiac/Chevy no matter what engine or what interior they put on it.

The BRX, CTC coupe, CTS-V and Escalade hybrid are the only future vehicles on Edmunds.com for Cadillac. BMW, Audi and Mercedes have about 10 each by 2010. The Alpha and Zeta Cadillacs will be key, but are a long way out.

The 2002 M5 is considered to be a better driver's car than the current M5. Seeing as how that would imply that BMW is taking steps backward, yes, a car that is similar to the 2002 M5 could compete with the 10 years later version.

What you don't get is that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE CARS COST that are on a platform, it can still be world class when compared to most any other platform, and Zeta is world class compared to most any other platform. The ULS was actually tentatively on a stretched Sigma, though I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being scratched. Still, why wouldn't an aluminum version of Zeta work? AGAIN, IT'S A WORLD CLASS PLATFORM, whether it costs $.01 or $1 mil. GM could easily cut weight down in Zeta by making it all-aluminum as you want, but that's not economically feasible for the cars it is currently underpinning. If GM came out with a new platform called "Omega" and said it's an all-new all-aluminum platform but was really just an all-aluminum, slightly-modified Zeta, you, and no-one else, wouldn't know the difference. You just want a platform that seems like it's something more "special" than Zeta because Zeta is on cars that don't have a price tag that makes them seem "special," and you don't realize that Zeta is already an awesome platform. You can only make a platform so good, and Zeta is an excellent platform. If your beloved S-Class platform is a 100/100, then Zeta is a couple small modifications and all-aluminum throughout from being 100/100.

As for Edmunds' future vehicles... two of those models are M3s, one is the long-overdue 1-Series, one is the hydrogen 7-Series (which is going to sell how many units?), and two are the X6 and V5, which seem like the same thing to me, but I guess we'll find out. It's not like they're adding a ton of new models that are actually going to put a ton of new volume out there. The X6 and V5 will more or less cannibalize each other from their descriptions. As for MB, they have 7 models listed, only of them being the totally-unattainable-to-anyone-who-isn't-rich-and-famous SLC. They may have more models coming than Cadillac does, but Cadillac just released the Escalade line and CTS not long ago.

[Nick]

Caddy really needs to use more lightweight parts for its top-line models to improve competitiveness, plus more exclusive components (with superior performance) to sway import intenders. This especially means the Ultra V8 for the CTS-V must outperform the 'plebian' pooprod LS engines.

That "plebian pooprod engine" as you so eloquently put it (and for the sake of argument, let's say it is the LS7 and compare it to the M5's S85), is not only lighter than the S85, but it is a smaller overall package, produces more power and more torque (especially torque), and it is a much more efficient engine than the overengineered garbage that is the S85.

Take the S85 out, throw in the LS7, and you've just made the M5 a better car.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Nick

[Z-06]

These so called knowledgeable members who claim to have better understanding of an Internal Combustion Engine, do not get the fact that displacement is not linearly proportional to the increase in the weight of an engine block.

A M3 V8 weighs almost as much as a LS7 (comparing both is like apples and oranges), but that should give these dumb donkeys an idea of how much the pushrods are weight savers than the DOHC, without applying weight saving measures when you compare them with respect to "displacement".

[aldw]

In the end import leaners won't care, because those who are accustomed to DOHC performance characteristics won't be swayed by anything that can't perform similarly or completely better. Just checking the Edmunds forums shows quite a bit of that mindset prevalence.

Edited December 10, 2007 by aldw

[Northstar]

In the end import leaners won't care, because those who are accustomed to DOHC performance characteristics won't be swayed by anything that can't perform similarly or completely better. Just checking the Edmunds forums shows quite a bit of that mindset prevalence.

Oh, I think end the end they might care if they get embarrassed by a "pooprod" powered CTS-V. But, perhaps they won't care since their DOHC engine is a better performance engine no matter the outcome of a race.

Define "perform similarly or completely better." To me, that means makes the car faster, and the engine in the CTS-V most certainly would make the M5 or M3 perform better if it was put into either of them.

[Drew Dowdell]

In the end import leaners won't care, because those who are accustomed to blue and white rondel on the hood and won't be swayed by anything that has a wreath and crest. Just checking the Edmunds forums shows quite a bit of that mindset prevalence.

fixed.

Jeremy Clarkson said it best when he was comparing the Vauxhall VXR to the 5-series. He pointed to the BMW badge on the trunk and said "That right there is worth at least 30,000£"

[Z-06]

In the end import leaners won't care, because those who are accustomed to DOHC performance characteristics won't be swayed by anything that can't perform similarly or completely better. Just checking the Edmunds forums shows quite a bit of that mindset prevalence.

[Camino LS6]

Pushrod engines make more sense. DOHC engine fetishes aside, the LSx engines are superior in so many ways that a thinking person would make them the preferred choice.

[Z-06]

I have never seen any valid argument from pushrod haters about why the engine is inferior.

[Camino LS6]

I have never seen any valid argument from pushrod haters about why the engine is inferior.

That's because it isn't.

The LSx engines are:

-more powerful

-less expensive

-less complex

-more reliable

-require less space and therefore provide better packaging

-are more fuel-efficient

-weigh less

It's a no-brainer.

[cletus8269]

curse you camino, you stole my post... at least it was more detailed than what i had to say. hehe

Edited December 10, 2007 by cletus8269

[Camino LS6]

[aldw]

Those 'DOHC fetishes' are now 3/4s of the Luxury/performance market, and anyone who ignores that is effectively damned in the marketplace.

[Drew Dowdell]

Those 'DOHC fetishes' are now 3/4s of the Luxury/performance market, and anyone who ignores that is effectively damned in the marketplace.

just because people pay more for velvet leapord print stretch pants that say prada on them doesn't mean they are better or more stylish.

[aldw]

just because people pay more for velvet leapord print stretch pants that say prada on them doesn't mean they are better or more stylish.

Oh, I do agree with that, the problem for GM though is that this market is rather particular about what it wants, so GM has to play by those tastes in order to succeed, however unnecessary or distasteful it may seem.

Edited December 11, 2007 by aldw

[Northstar]

Oh, I do agree with that, the problem for GM though is that this market is rather particular about what it wants, so GM has to play by those tastes in order to succeed, however unnecessary or distasteful it may seem.

Cadillac has DOHC in everything except the CTS-V and Escalade line. Obviously having OHV engines in the Escalade hasn't affected its sales much, and the CTS-V's niche is all about going fast. I don't see anything wrong with beating the competition at going fast if that's the name of the game, whether you do it the same exact way as them on not.

[Z-06]

That's because it isn't.

The LSx engines are:

-more powerful

-less expensive

-less complex

-more reliable

-require less space and therefore provide better packaging

-are more fuel-efficient

-weigh less

It's a no-brainer.

No brainer for us considering we have owned or owning at least one of them. Other "sheeples" don't. Like the couch Caddy commentator we have here, who has not sat in a LS* vehicle and complains about it all the time.

Those 'DOHC fetishes' are now 3/4s of the Luxury/performance market, and anyone who ignores that is effectively damned in the marketplace.

Cadillac can make 25% of that market, and still excel compared to DOHC.

Edited December 11, 2007 by smallchevy

[smk4565]

The current M3 is 3400s. However, the current M3 is still based on the previous 3-series platform. The old 330ci weighed 3285lbs., but gained 300lbs when it moved to the new 335i platform.... So now the new M3 is looking at a 300lb. weight gain even before you consider that it's moving from an I6 to a V8. The 530i gains 400lbs when it gains the V8 to become a 550i.

Now I'm sure that BMW will do some weight saving aluminum bits and pieces here and there, but they can't do 700lbs worth. My assumption is that the M3 will end up right around 4,000 lbs. Considering that the M3 will be anywhere from 80hp to 120hp short of the CTS-V's speculated horsepower, that 200lb weight difference doesn't seem all that big anymore.

Now, that is my assumption.... but at least I put some thought and research into it instead of randomly spewing irrelevant or inconsistent numbers around the forum.

Car and Driver December 07 issue tested the 2008 M3, which will be around for another 6 or so years.

3571 pounds (177 pounds more than the old one), nearly 500 less than a C63 AMG. The M3's V8 is also lighter weight than the I6 it replaces.

M3 0-60 time is 4.3 seconds, 12.8 seconds for the 1/4 mile. The C63 is 0-60 in 3.9 seconds, but the M3 won the comparison (RS4 was in it also).

[smk4565]

I have never seen any valid argument from pushrod haters about why the engine is inferior.

Louder, not as smooth, vibrate more, harsher sounded when near redline, can't rev as high or fast. Need more displacement to make power; the 197 hp 3800 V6 is a prime example.

DOHC is better. I have a DOHC V8 (a GM one too) and no pushrod can match the refinement of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

you could have just said you were initially wrong about the M3 weight instead of making me go through all the trouble of looking up all those statistics just to come up with some sort of reasonably hypothetical number....

[smk4565]

What you don't get is that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE CARS COST that are on a platform, it can still be world class when compared to most any other platform, and Zeta is world class compared to most any other platform. The ULS was actually tentatively on a stretched Sigma, though I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being scratched. Still, why wouldn't an aluminum version of Zeta work? AGAIN, IT'S A WORLD CLASS PLATFORM, whether it costs $.01 or $1 mil. GM could easily cut weight down in Zeta by making it all-aluminum as you want, but that's not economically feasible for the cars it is currently underpinning. If GM came out with a new platform called "Omega" and said it's an all-new all-aluminum platform but was really just an all-aluminum, slightly-modified Zeta, you, and no-one else, wouldn't know the difference. You just want a platform that seems like it's something more "special" than Zeta because Zeta is on cars that don't have a price tag that makes them seem "special," and you don't realize that Zeta is already an awesome platform. You can only make a platform so good, and Zeta is an excellent platform. If your beloved S-Class platform is a 100/100, then Zeta is a couple small modifications and all-aluminum throughout from being 100/100.

So Zeta is better than the Sigma platform as well? Then a G8 would be better ride and handling and more solid feeling than a CTS. Zeta is world class compared to other $25-40,000 cars. It can't compete with an S-class or 7-series. And people that spend $80-150,000 on a car don't want anything that is shared with a Chevy, they are paying for exclusivity. The other problem is the $70k+ buyers are all imports buyers, that thing American cars are unfashionable or not up to par with the imports. To get those kinds of buyers converted, they need to build an incredible car with amazing technology.

[Drew Dowdell]

Louder, not as smooth, vibrate more, harsher sounded when near redline, can't rev as high or fast. Need more displacement to make power; the 197 hp 3800 V6 is a prime example.

3800 is in one of the quietest vehicles on the road today

horsepower per liter is a complete red herring and has already been hashed out on this forum multiple times.

"can't rev as high" isn't important when all your torque is way down low. Want a weedwacker? Buy a Honda.

I drive both a GM pushrod and a GM DOHC and each have their sweetspot. The DOHC is smoother at all speeds north of 75mph. The pushrod is smoother at all speeds south of that.

and my pushrod isn't even one of the "good" ones.

DOHC is better.

I curse you to drive a Quad-4 the rest of your natural life.

[Drew Dowdell]

So Zeta is better than the Sigma platform as well? Then a G8 would be better ride and handling and more solid feeling than a CTS. Zeta is world class compared to other $25-40,000 cars. It can't compete with an S-class or 7-series. And people that spend $80-150,000 on a car don't want anything that is shared with a Chevy, they are paying for exclusivity. The other problem is the $70k+ buyers are all imports buyers, that thing American cars are unfashionable or not up to par with the imports. To get those kinds of buyers converted, they need to build an incredible car with amazing technology.

Zeta is better than Sigma because it has all the ride and handling characteristics while being much more flexible. I drive and love my Sigma, so it pains me to say it, but that doesn't make it less true.

It can't compete with an S-class or 7-series. And people that spend $80-150,000 on a car don't want anything that is shared with a Chevy.

Interesting then that people who spend $300,000 on a Phantom, Bentley Continental, or Maybach are spending all that money on something based on a "mere" 7-series, Pheaton, or S-class. You'd think they'd want some sort of exclusivity....

Interesting that people buying an LX, QX56, Q8 or Escalades are buying vehicles based on such plebian vehicles as Toyotas, Nissans, VWs or Chevys.

Don't act like the exclusive brands don't platform share... even Porsche, Rolls, and Bentley do it.

[Z-06]

Louder, not as smooth, vibrate more, harsher sounded when near redline, can't rev as high or fast. Need more displacement to make power; the 197 hp 3800 V6 is a prime example.

DOHC is better. I have a DOHC V8 (a GM one too) and no pushrod can match the refinement of it.

It seems like the last Pushrod you have driven is in 1985.

Can you give me the technical explanation of why they sound harsher, not smoother and more vibrating? Because the books of internal combustion engines I have read do not tell me what in the configuration of the pushrod ENGINE makes it do those things.

[Camino LS6]

Many of the luxury buyers wouldn't even know if their car of choice had a DOHC or pushrod engine. Such mechanical realities are what they pay someone else to worry about, these folks are results oriented and don't bother with the details. The technosnob, gadget-pansy, auto writers and certain enthusiasts are the only ones who give a rat's ass what sort of valvetrain a given luxury car is using. The idea that DOHC is a requirement to play in this arena is a patently absurd notion supported by nothing more than journalistic flights of fancy.

[smk4565]

Well the Quad 4 was a disaster. I had a pushrod Cavalier as my first car, that wasn't great either, reliable though.

I've driven the LeSabre, I have been in my friend's Monte Carlo and an LS1 Corvette, my step brother has an LS1 Firebird that I've driven a few times. I've driven the 3.4 liter in the old Grand Am, I have rode in my friends Malibu with the 3500 V6 many times. I have driven the 06 Impala, all and all a pretty good sampling of GM pushrods. None of them come close to the quietness, refinement or smoothness of my Aurora's DOHC V8. From 0-120 mph, that engine is smooth, no vibration or harshness anywhere. And there are better DOHC V8s out there as well. I won't even consider a pushrod car after owning a DOHC.

[SuperSport623]

Well think about this... what about the enthusiests? not just those who drive, but those who modify their cars... it may seem like a minority to you, but many who buy performance cars do modify them... my friend for a short while had a LS2 CTS-V and i helped (well more watched then anything) him do a head/cam swap on the ls2... if that was a DOHC motor, not only would there be substantially less aftermarket parts for the motor, it probably would have been uber complicated to do... remember... not all new car owners, especcially those in the market for performance cars like the V, keep their cars stock...

[Z-06]

Well the Quad 4 was a disaster. I had a pushrod Cavalier as my first car, that wasn't great either, reliable though.

I've driven the LeSabre, I have been in my friend's Monte Carlo and an LS1 Corvette, my step brother has an LS1 Firebird that I've driven a few times. I've driven the 3.4 liter in the old Grand Am, I have rode in my friends Malibu with the 3500 V6 many times. I have driven the 06 Impala, all and all a pretty good sampling of GM pushrods. None of them come close to the quietness, refinement or smoothness of my Aurora's DOHC V8. From 0-120 mph, that engine is smooth, no vibration or harshness anywhere. And there are better DOHC V8s out there as well. I won't even consider a pushrod car after owning a DOHC.

GM can do without one sheepling customer.

[smk4565]

GM can do without one sheepling customer.

But they can't do without the baby-boomer generation that heavily buys imports, all of which are OHC engines. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche, Volvo, Jaguar are all OHC engines. Even the Malibu had to abandon the pushrod because they can't win over buyers with it. If GM concludes that a pushrod can't compete with the Camry, how can one compete with the M5 and other $80,000 cars. How are Chrysler SRT-8 sales?

And about the modifications, I would guess that Civic Si, Scion, RSX, Celica, Lancer, Eclipse type cars get modified more than luxury cars. All those rice burners are DOHC, they don't seem to struggle finding parts for them.

[Lamar]

But they can't do without the baby-boomer generation that heavily buys imports, all of which are OHC engines. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche, Volvo, Jaguar are all OHC engines. Even the Malibu had to abandon the pushrod because they can't win over buyers with it.

As was said, most of those buyers, save for enthusiasts, don't know if it's a pushrod or OHC engine that's moving their car. Sometimes I don't even know unless I go back and look it up. Moreover, most of those buyers in the baby-boomer generation that you keep mentioning are those who swore off domestics after the debacle that was the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Correlation is most likely not equal to causation here.

BTW, ask Toyota how those reliable DOHC Camry and Tundra engines are going for them...

If GM concludes that a pushrod can't compete with the Camry

Define "compete."

how can one compete with the M5 and other $80,000 cars. How are Chrysler SRT-8 sales?

Nice of you to limit your question to only the special-edition model of the 300 while leaving out that little bit of information that every 300C uses a pushrod engine. And considering how there are 300Cs everywhere... not to mention Charger and Magnum R/Ts...

And about the modifications, I would guess that Civic Si, Scion, RSX, Celica, Lancer, Eclipse type cars get modified more than luxury cars. All those rice burners are DOHC, they don't seem to struggle finding parts for them.

Those engines are usually old enough for tuners to have figured them out by now, especially the RSX and Celica which aren't even made anymore. Plus, Scions are designed for tuning and modding anyway.

[cletus8269]

But they can't do without the baby-boomer generation that heavily buys imports, all of which are OHC engines. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche, Volvo, Jaguar are all OHC engines. Even the Malibu had to abandon the pushrod because they can't win over buyers with it. If GM concludes that a pushrod can't compete with the Camry, how can one compete with the M5 and other $80,000 cars. How are Chrysler SRT-8 sales?

And about the modifications, I would guess that Civic Si, Scion, RSX, Celica, Lancer, Eclipse type cars get modified more than luxury cars. All those rice burners are DOHC, they don't seem to struggle finding parts for them.

you mean like my grandparents in their 70's that have purchased pontiac the last 2 times they bought a car, and are looking at another. if anything should have pushed them against domestic it would have been the vega they had with the defective block. their 97 bonne se runs smooth as silk on its 3.8 and it'll fly too, for a 6 shooter. 28 hwy mpg on the side note there as well. the pushrod is here to stay has been since chevy dropped the 265 in a 55 bel air. if you want to talk mods on an engine tune into powerblock on spike or some show on speed chances are somebody somewhere is doing something with a gm pushrod v8. if it aint broke dont fix it. who cares if europe is doing it... if i have a sports car its a pushrod.

[SuperSport623]

And about the modifications, I would guess that Civic Si, Scion, RSX, Celica, Lancer, Eclipse type cars get modified more than luxury cars. All those rice burners are DOHC, they don't seem to struggle finding parts for them.

a fart can and a wing is not a "mod" in my book....

what i mean is, the chevy smallblock, LSx's included, are some of the most adaptable platforms ever...

Pushrod motors offer more torque at lower RPMs, and i would guess are cheaper to build and maintain... besides that, the aftermarket for the LS motors is unbelievable.

i just dont understand why you think a cam in block automatically means ancient technology....

[cire]

Very impressive car, but I do agree with some of the other posts about the grille. I like the grille on the regular CTS much better. The grille on the regular CTS clearly informs everyone that the sedan is a "Cadillac". The CTS-V grille doesn't look like a distinctive Cadillac grille. The upper portion has a five sided construction that can be found on any number of other products on the market today.

Other than the grille, the rest of the car is exciting and highly desirable.

[cletus8269]

a fart can and a wing is not a "mod" in my book....

what i mean is, the chevy smallblock, LSx's included, are some of the most adaptable platforms ever...

Pushrod motors offer more torque at lower RPMs, and i would guess are cheaper to build and maintain... besides that, the aftermarket for the LS motors is unbelievable.

i just dont understand why you think a cam in block automatically means ancient technology....

because it is old, its been around since 55 surely its too old and outdated of a platform to still be a viable sorce of performance... surely. the only things you can still get for them is turbos, headers, cams, heads, super chargers, pulley kits, blowers, n20 setups, pistons, valves, rods, performance chips, etc. i mean there isnt much you can do with them anymore, right?

[Drew Dowdell]

Well the Quad 4 was a disaster. I had a pushrod Cavalier as my first car, that wasn't great either, reliable though.

I've driven the LeSabre, I have been in my friend's Monte Carlo and an LS1 Corvette, my step brother has an LS1 Firebird that I've driven a few times. I've driven the 3.4 liter in the old Grand Am, I have rode in my friends Malibu with the 3500 V6 many times. I have driven the 06 Impala, all and all a pretty good sampling of GM pushrods. None of them come close to the quietness, refinement or smoothness of my Aurora's DOHC V8. From 0-120 mph, that engine is smooth, no vibration or harshness anywhere. And there are better DOHC V8s out there as well. I won't even consider a pushrod car after owning a DOHC.

So you're comparing some of the least technologically advanced pushrod V6es to one of the most famously smooth DOHC V8s... and you don't see a problem with this comparison?

Correlation is not causation buddy. Consider of the sheer faultiness of your logic before you proceed any further with this argument.

[turbo200]

one thing is certain. though i have not stood next to a Vette, ZO6, or CTS-V [which are specifically the cars we care about in this conversation], I have been standing on a street when a new gen Escalade drives by and heard that same GM loud raucous boom that is typical of GM engines for years.

THAT DOES NOT sound refined.

I have also stood on the street hearing various other cars pass by, Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, with the sound ranging from refined and strong, mechanical to screeching exotic sounding, like a highly tuned louder motorcycle.

I can only vouch for that as my experience with these performance engines and must say from that I vote the DOHC engines to be instantly, undoubtedly, way more appealing and attractive, cool in nature