November 2007 Sales: General Motors

[haypops]

A small foot print 7-passenger wagon that predated the ones described above was the Saab 95

The Saab 95 could carry seven passengers or up to 1120 pounds of cargo plus the driver, could cruise at 70 mph, and got 30 mpg on the lowest-octane fuel.

Like the others mentioned previously, I don't think it was a sales hit. I always had a liking for these, especially since the engines sounded like a chain saw. :AH-HA_wink:

Two other vehicle to consider in the small 7 passenger vehicle market are the Ford Edge and all short wheel base minivans. The success of the former(5 passenger only) and the lack of the latter show that Americans expect luggage space with their 7 passenger capacity or else forget it.

[Drew Dowdell]

These are godawful hideous piles of nothing with zero style. The HHR is infinitely more creative stylistically than these.

God, they are bad.

My parents had an '86 just like the tire burning burgandy one above.

It was an extremely versatile vehicle. The rear seats did a flip and fold that was easier and predated anything in the minivans. The seats would flip up and directly in back of the 2nd row out of the way. Theirs was a 4-cylinder non-turbo with a 5-speed and 4wd. It got somewhere in the mid-upper 30s for mileage on the highway. My dad took it off road semi-frequently. The 4wd would sometimes get stuck on <it was electronically activated> and my dad discovered that putting it in reverse and popping the clutch would take it out of 4wd. The trick started to lose it's effectiveness after a while and there were episodes where you'd see the car hopping backwards down the street while my dad tried his clutch popping trick multiple times. We were the sane ones on the street. It was a sight worthy of our animated gifs thread.

One time my sister and I were being picked up from my grandparents by my dad. We drove by what would best be described as a terrain park for off road vehicles. There was this guy in a jeep there showing off and a number of people had gathered by the side of the road to watch. My dad, apparently missing the Jeep he had as his first car, put the Colt Vista into 4wd and started to follow the jeep around the trails. So here you have a Jeep trying to show off and a guy in a grocery getter wagon with two kids in the back following him around. I was probably 10 and my sister 8 so our head were just above the door line. The audience dissipated rather quickly after that.

As ugly as the car is, it was a scrappy little vehicle that was perfect for a young family. It was crazy reliable too especially considering the abuse my dad put it through. It's only major issue was a timing belt that broke. My parents traded it in for a 1994 Bonneville at 106,000 miles when it needed it's first clutch in 1996.

My mom cried the whole time.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[regfootball]

I'll break it down quite simply:

It's not what the HHR is as much as its what that development $ could have done. A better Cobalt OR A 7 pass MPV or a small CUV just would have made more sense...even if they didn't sell here, the weak US $ could have meant overseas export and factories running full steam in yrs 3-5OR earlier development of the Zetas---a NA-made, RWD sedan Zeta will be available in '10 (?) exactly 5 years after DCX did RWD with the LX--that's a timely response to competition?

Like them or not, the Rondo & 5 are sold worldwide---are we exporting HHRs to Europe or Asia or S.America? Not really. Pure Genius.

you ought to be smart enough to know that anyone serious about 3 row/7 passenger seating is not looking at tiny vehicles like the Mazda 5 and Rondo for serious family application.

Aside from the few granola folks who live in a small urban place with a tiny garage and an ultimate distate for the need to own a car.

Do the research. Something like a Mazda5, Rondo, Smax, doesn't really get all that good of gas mileage. In the case of the Mazda5, it maybe cracks 15k on the sales charts, but it probably has one of the highest fleet percentages around. The lease return broker I bought a couple cars from always has a couple near new ones in stock, because the mazda dealers cannot sell them new.

I like the mazda 5 and what it is trying to do, but truth is, even with high gas prices, anyone with the need to schlep kids around wants something bigger. A minivan will get 20mpg and haul things comfortably. That mazda5 will barely crack 25 mpg if you are lucky and isn't much cheaper to buy for a wheezing 4 cylinder and cramped interior.

The HHR is not married to the pretense of people mover. Its just a compact get about with nice trunk. In that regard, it explains why it can sell 100k. Fun looking, enough space, good price. No big pretense on a luxury interior.

This is almost as insane as the whole 'we need the euro focus' bit. Ford decided they could increase sales as much by simply putting in voice command for the ipod and cell phone, rather than blowing cash trying to completely redo the mechanicals and powertrain to please the non buying 'enthusiasts'.

Edited December 7, 2007 by regfootball

[enzl]

you ought to be smart enough to know that anyone serious about 3 row/7 passenger seating is not looking at tiny vehicles like the Mazda 5 and Rondo for serious family application.

Aside from the few granola folks who live in a small urban place with a tiny garage and an ultimate distate for the need to own a car.

Do the research. Something like a Mazda5, Rondo, Smax, doesn't really get all that good of gas mileage. In the case of the Mazda5, it maybe cracks 15k on the sales charts, but it probably has one of the highest fleet percentages around. The lease return broker I bought a couple cars from always has a couple near new ones in stock, because the mazda dealers cannot sell them new.

I like the mazda 5 and what it is trying to do, but truth is, even with high gas prices, anyone with the need to schlep kids around wants something bigger. A minivan will get 20mpg and haul things comfortably. That mazda5 will barely crack 25 mpg if you are lucky and isn't much cheaper to buy for a wheezing 4 cylinder and cramped interior.

The HHR is not married to the pretense of people mover. Its just a compact get about with nice trunk. In that regard, it explains why it can sell 100k. Fun looking, enough space, good price. No big pretense on a luxury interior.

This is almost as insane as the whole 'we need the euro focus' bit. Ford decided they could increase sales as much by simply putting in voice command for the ipod and cell phone, rather than blowing cash trying to completely redo the mechanicals and powertrain to please the non buying 'enthusiasts'.

I can't wholeheartedly disagree with anything you've written, but I'll give you my spin:

1st, I think you underestimate the appeal of the 3rd row, regardless of ultimate utility--for instance, I believe the take rate is fairly high for the 3rd seat in the Outlander & RAV4, two vehicles that have greatly benefited from their respective redesigns that added this feature. While the Rondo & 5 are not sales successes here, bear in mind that these vehicles (& vehicles just like them --Honda Stream, Toyota Verso, Fiat Multipla, Opel 7pass thingy, Volkswagen Touran) are ALL sold worldwide---at a time when the US $ makes exporting extremely profitable! What does GM do? They import a G8 from Oz & the Astra from Belgium instead!

I'm not averse to the HHR, and I'm quite partial to hatches, but I just don't see the point. Remember, all of the above MPV's are available in 40 mpg+ diesel guise in their home markets. That makes them much more attractive. And there's nothing to prevent 'practical' from being fun...most of the above also have high-performance variants that sit alongside diesels in their showrooms. It's big fat American slobs that need acres of plastic & metal around them that are the ones missing out.

I don't think they couldn't sell 250k worldwide---and if they only sold 50k of those in the States, it would mean 200k sold at profits in currencies that bring back huge returns for a Company that does much of its business in US dollars. To me, when you're having problems making $ on your current model mix, you'd be better served exploiting profitable niches, rather than bringing out a car with the double whammy of retro attention span & little/no export volume. Plus, you save the development costs of the HHR. I'm not sure you noticed, but GM could use a few bucks in their pockets....

Edited December 8, 2007 by enzl

[Z-06]

1st, I think you underestimate the appeal of the 3rd row, regardless of ultimate utility--for instance, I believe the take rate is fairly high for the 3rd seat in the Outlander & RAV4, two vehicles that have greatly benefited from their respective redesigns that added this feature.

I will disagree on this one. One of the Vietnamese colleague of mine (who claims to be GM fan but humps Toy) just ordered 2 4-cylinder RAV4 to send to Hanoi (reason, cheaper taxes on imported goods)

He contacted all the dealers in Central FL area. One of the dealer's email read this, "Although Toyota provides this option, this version of the vehicle is build to order. The waiting time for it is anywhere between 4 to 6 months. The nearest car we found was in one in Idaho on the dealer's inventory list and there are not many vehicles available in the United States."

Further the dealer said that my colleague had to pay full price on them, (since they are not on the lot, hence forget haggle). My colleague confirmed this and the availability verbally with another dealer.

So I KNOW for a fact that the so called 3rd row option is only a GIMMICK, NOT a fairly high take rate at least for the RAV4.

[regfootball]

i would challenge anyone posting on this website to attempt to gracefully enter and exit and sit in the third row of a mazda5 in comfort.

again, mazda5, maybe the furriners love em, but in the US, multiperson vehicles don't sell without lots of room.

look at the original odyssey vs the one now.

[enzl]

I will disagree on this one. One of the Vietnamese colleague of mine (who claims to be GM fan but humps Toy) just ordered 2 4-cylinder RAV4 to send to Hanoi (reason, cheaper taxes on imported goods)

He contacted all the dealers in Central FL area. One of the dealer's email read this, "Although Toyota provides this option, this version of the vehicle is build to order. The waiting time for it is anywhere between 4 to 6 months. The nearest car we found was in one in Idaho on the dealer's inventory list and there are not many vehicles available in the United States."

Further the dealer said that my colleague had to pay full price on them, (since they are not on the lot, hence forget haggle). My colleague confirmed this and the availability verbally with another dealer.

So I KNOW for a fact that the so called 3rd row option is only a GIMMICK, NOT a fairly high take rate at least for the RAV4.

It looks like only 6 cyl. RAV4's can be configured 7 pass on Toyota's website--so it may be only special order on 4's. And perhaps the reason they're hard to find at all is because they sell ? (I've seen many 7 pass go thru our dealership..)

My main issue wasn't mini-minivan demand, regardless...it was wasting valuable development $ on evolutionary dead ends like the HHR.

[Camino LS6]

I wouldn't call it a dead end, the panel and SS versions have kept it fresh. And the potential for personalisation is huge. The panel especially is a blank canvas for commercial buyers as well as customizers. Give the next gen AWD, and you have one interesting and versatile product.

[regfootball]

It looks like only 6 cyl. RAV4's can be configured 7 pass on Toyota's website--so it may be only special order on 4's. And perhaps the reason they're hard to find at all is because they sell ? (I've seen many 7 pass go thru our dealership..)

My main issue wasn't mini-minivan demand, regardless...it was wasting valuable development $ on evolutionary dead ends like the HHR.

well, if the HHR moves 400,000-500,000 units over its lifespan i don't think its a waste. it amortizes the delta some more and it gained chevy some market share it would not have.

the next cobalt should also have a wagon/2 box type companion vehicle as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

i would challenge anyone posting on this website to attempt to gracefully enter and exit and sit in the third row of a VW Touran in comfort.

[Drew Dowdell]

It looks like only 6 cyl. RAV4's can be configured 7 pass on Toyota's website--so it may be only special order on 4's. And perhaps the reason they're hard to find at all is because they sell ? (I've seen many 7 pass go thru our dealership..)

My main issue wasn't mini-minivan demand, regardless...it was wasting valuable development $ on evolutionary dead ends like the HHR.

It's a Cobalt wagon! More than likely there will be another Delta based wagon that gets sold in the next generation.... it's not a dead end!

[VenSeattle]

I've always thought of the HHR as Chevrolet's version of a Toyota Matrix. It's a Corolla wagon but with different styling and name. Same with the HHR and Cobalt. Chevrolet should have "officially" called it the Cobalt HHR and calculated the sales total under Cobalt just like Toyota does with the Corolla.

Which sells more? Matrix or HHR? Fleet or not?

[enzl]

It's a Cobalt wagon! More than likely there will be another Delta based wagon that gets sold in the next generation.... it's not a dead end!

Retro, by definition, is a dead end. How do you update a homage to the past? (see New Beetle, T-bird, PT for examples..)

A cobalt Wagon, that shares many stampings with a sedan/coupe, is cheaper to develop and produce. A 'Zafira'-type Cobalt can sell anywhere on the planet. I don't believe that moneys spent to modernize and refine the Cobalt--making it a true 3/Civic competitor--rather than dumping that same money into an HHR, creates any plus sales.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've always thought of the HHR as Chevrolet's version of a Toyota Matrix. It's a Corolla wagon but with different styling and name. Same with the HHR and Cobalt. Chevrolet should have "officially" called it the Cobalt HHR and calculated the sales total under Cobalt just like Toyota does with the Corolla.

Which sells more? Matrix or HHR? Fleet or not?

Removing Chevy's fleet sales, but including Japanese fleet sales, the HHR still outsells any japanese model by a significant margin.

[Camino LS6]

Retro, by definition, is a dead end. How do you update a homage to the past? (see New Beetle, T-bird, PT for examples..)

A cobalt Wagon, that shares many stampings with a sedan/coupe, is cheaper to develop and produce. A 'Zafira'-type Cobalt can sell anywhere on the planet. I don't believe that moneys spent to modernize and refine the Cobalt--making it a true 3/Civic competitor--rather than dumping that same money into an HHR, creates any plus sales.

Have to disagree, "retro" can be updated as we are talking about a time in which cars were updated every year, so opportunites abound. What has been lacking has been the will to actually try it. The new beetle my be the exception to the rule here, it's options seem limited. But the rest of the list could have been done. In any case, the HHR is only vaugely retro and can easily be updated.

What you propose, is a one-way ticket to boredom. A true wagon version of Cobalt would lack the appeal of the HHR, and sales would reflect that. Plain vanilla won't do Chevy any favors these days.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'd have to agree with enzl in this case. I never liked the HHR, and I never liked the PT Cruiser either. How will it be updated? It sells because it is cheap, offers some utility, is less outdated than the PT Cruiser, and is less ugly than a xB.

[Camino LS6]

I know how I would update the HHR, but many possibilities exist. Don't forget that it is stylistically based on the original Suburban of which many generations and styles are available to choose from.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Link didn't work, try this

November Sales

Interesting that Pontiac sells near 50% the car volume Chevy does, but appears to be the next in line to be killed(tick-tock?)

Just like Buick, Pontiac continues to prove it's relevance. Phasing out either of the divisions would be sheer ignorance IMO. Those who say it is a good idea are obviously not CEOs for a reason.

[VenSeattle]

Retro, by definition, is a dead end. How do you update a homage to the past? (see New Beetle, T-bird, PT for examples..)

A cobalt Wagon, that shares many stampings with a sedan/coupe, is cheaper to develop and produce. A 'Zafira'-type Cobalt can sell anywhere on the planet. I don't believe that moneys spent to modernize and refine the Cobalt--making it a true 3/Civic competitor--rather than dumping that same money into an HHR, creates any plus sales.

So, based on your observations, BMW's Mini division is destined to fail? I think they're updating "Retro" just fine.

[enzl]

So, based on your observations, BMW's Mini division is destined to fail? I think they're updating "Retro" just fine.

They didn't change it---you have to have them side-by-side (Gen1/2) to tell them apart...And, if the HHR was as good a car as the Mini is, we wouldn't be having this argument.

The Mini, in a sense, makes my argument for me. BMW's Mini plant originally had a limit of 125k IIRC, they had to expand on 3 different occassions to meet the WORLDWIDE demand for the vehicles (which is at 300k.)

Using the Mini as an example only shows how piss-poor the HHR has done...are there worldwide fanclubs (or even sales)?NO. Is the HHR class leading, in any respect?NO. Has GM needed to up production (from initial projections of 100k+, not Bob Lutz' backtracking predictions of 50k in its intro year)? NO.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying the HHR is a total disaster, only that the development Moneys could have gone elsewhere...like for a vehicle with international demand (Zafira) OR a better Cobalt OR the Zetas OR a 6 sp. Auto for the 'Bu upon intro---all things that would have helped Chevy sell more cars without creating another nameplate to (mis)market.

I'm driving one right now--its not the worst car in the world, its just an example of GM doing things half-right, and thus incorrectly. My wife thinks it's cute...that's about it. A cramped, inefficient interior, terrible sightlines, crappy plastics, a lethargic tranny/engine combo, mediocre gas mileage and a sloppy suspension all conspire to make it a forgettable ride. I live with dozens of cars & trucks on a yearly basis--this one just isn't GM at the top of its game.

[A Horse With No Name]

The t-blazer is a dinosaur....for some further perspective, I recently had an xB (1st gen) for a month--it was an 05 with 60k....I would venture to say it had only slightly less space overall (More for humans, less for cargo) than the HHR. It got 27-35MPG and, while dog-ass slow and ugly, it just seemed like a more integrated piece than the HHR.

The Traverse will more than cover the T-blazer space adequately...I foresee a Colorado/H3 based SUV made elsewhere plugged back into the Chevy lineup at some point in the future.

My Chevy store has trouble moving more than a couple of HHR's monthly--and the wide variation in MSRP from top to bottom makes it difficult to inventory adequately, regardless. Is the HHR attractive? Yes. Is it 'good' in the same way a Mazda 3 or a CRV is? Not really.

I've had similar bad vibes about the Compatriot triplets, the Matrix (1st gen) & the Element. each has at least one fatal flaw that would drive me crazy as an owner.

Ditto on the Compatriot triplits, Matrix and Element. Esp. the Compatriot....

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think the comparison of the Mini to the HHR is a little unfair considering the difference in history. Mini was already established and reveled.

Not to mention, I'm willing to be that most Minis sold are the more expensive variety (Who would own a plebian Mini?) as opposed to most HHRs which are entry level.

[A Horse With No Name]

Actually they are two very different vehicles aimed at two very different markets. But as Carbiz pointed out, GM can't do everything at once. They have to bide their time and use their limited funds/talents to update one platform at a time...

The HHR is probably 15-18k out the door with rebates, incentives, and discounts, wheras your average MINI is prob. 25k out the door.

10k per vehicle will add a lot in a small vehicle.

I love the Mini and want to own one, but the HHR is on my "short list" of cars I'd look at also...

Chris

[CARBIZ]

Actually they are two very different vehicles aimed at two very different markets. But as Carbiz pointed out, GM can't do everything at once. They have to bide their time and use their limited funds/talents to update one platform at a time...

The HHR is probably 15-18k out the door with rebates, incentives, and discounts, wheras your average MINI is prob. 25k out the door.

10k per vehicle will add a lot in a small vehicle.

I love the Mini and want to own one, but the HHR is on my "short list" of cars I'd look at also...

Chris

We have a '03 Mini Cooper S on our lot, and while it is a blast to drive (80 km/hr in 2nd gear!), it sells USED for more than a 2008 LT HHR sells NEW. NO way, no how they are in the same snack bracket. Again, the usual suspects look down their noses at plebian transportation. For $10k more, the HHR would have been a much better vehicle, no doubt. However, there is no limit to the amount that could be spent on a vehicle.

Still, I will be the first to admit that the interior of the HHR disappoints. Although there are a few 'cool' features (like the LED on the ceiling), the plastic is cheap looking, the nylon seats are awful and the visiblity is awful for someone taller than 5 feet. I thought about the Vibe and the HHR before settling on the Optra 5 as the first vehicle I've OWNED in ten years. The HHR was the nicest of the three, but I couldn't justify the extra $50 a month, so I opted for the Optra. Too bad you guys don't get that vehicle down there....OOPs, neither do we: GM summarily cancelled the '08 line up, putting one more nail in the coffin of Chevrolet in Canada.

[Drew Dowdell]

the Optra is sold as a Suzuki here

[A Horse With No Name]

Someone clue me in on why the interior of the HHR is so bad. On the nicer models I find it really nice, and my wife finds the interior materials to be very similar in quality to the Cobalt SS (another car we would like to own in addition to the MINI).

For its price point the HHR is a damned fine automobile, I think. Most of the owners I talk to seem to be very happy with them.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

..perhaps CARBIZ you didn't like the HHR because of your height. IIRC you are 6'2 and I am 5'11. I find everything falls into place nicely in the HHR.

Chris