Pontiac's Death Blow????

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Maybe I'm hard-headed, but I'm still not buying it. The only time I've totally invested my opinions in something from Moron Trend at least ninety percent was when they reported on the Cadillac "ULC," and that was only because they had photos.

Edited December 4, 2007 by YellowJacket894

[Robert Hall]

>>"Pontiac has the most potential now."<<

Have to agree vs. the others mentioned above; saab is crippled by a rigid heritage that does not allow 'reinventing' the brand without angering all 200 loyal buyers worldwide. Pontiac sells nearly 4 times saab's volume based on the '04 # above yet has a progressive-enough history that they are not locked into design reguritation for 25 years. Saab will never be any more than it is right now, only way it can go is down.

>>"FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s: GMC: 480k"<<

This must be a partial year figure (thru October??); in 2004 GMC sold 598K. I don't recall anything that could be responsible for a 100K loss...

Those were year-to-date numbers for Jan-Dec 06, so probably CY numbers instead of MY numbers (which would extend from fall 05 into 07)...

Edited December 4, 2007 by moltar

[SuperSport623]

well northstar emailed lutz about it.. i understand if lutz declined comment, but he outright said its untrue... i think MT is just in the wrong..

[Robert Hall]

well northstar emailed lutz about it.. i understand if lutz declined comment, but he outright said its untrue... i think MT is just in the wrong..

Could be... MT is not an authoritative source of rumors..

[Drew Dowdell]

OMG PONTIAC IS TEH SHELVED@@!@!@@!!!!!

[VenSeattle]

I don't think that is true... do you have a link? The union contract says the Kappas stay in Wilmington until 2012. I also have another source of info that, while not as recent, says the NG Kappas are to be built at Wilmington.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...l=Bowling+Green

As for NUMMI - Vibe can be dropped, Matrix etc can replace production if GM ends the joint venture. Or, it could just become a Chevrolet product... again. Simple.

As for the Union agreement - G6 went out the furthest (2013) for commitment to build a Pontiac, which is why it was quoted.

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not. :AH-HA_wink:

[ToniCipriani]

OMG PONTIAC IS TEH SHELVED@@!@!@@!!!!!

Classic.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If this is true, then GM is the same old ignorant sloth that it always has been...

So much potential wasted.

If they phase out yet another perfectly healthy division, then count me in as a Ford fan instead of a GM fan.

[Camino LS6]

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...l=Bowling+Green

As for NUMMI - Vibe can be dropped, Matrix etc can replace production if GM ends the joint venture. Or, it could just become a Chevrolet product... again. Simple.

As for the Union agreement - G6 went out the furthest (2013) for commitment to build a Pontiac, which is why it was quoted.

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not. :AH-HA_wink:

NUMMI needs to come to an end as does the Vibe.

G8 is in production, and it seems, will add at least one or two variants. If PCS sees a future for the G8 beyond Holden-produced cars considering his opinion of the car and CD is confident of it enough to state it as fact, and the pure logic of it makes sense - well, if you do the math...

Add in the fact that Lutz has called BS on the Alpha story and I am feeling much better than when I read the headline a few hours back.

I'm also adding another mental note to MT's BS file.

[Robert Hall]

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not. :AH-HA_wink:

I'd say PCS plants disinformation and derives twisted pleasure from watching our reactions to his posts.

[VenSeattle]

I'd say PCS plants disinformation and derives twisted pleasure from watching our reactions to his posts.

He must be in cohorts with Motor Trend, UAW, and GM too... Oops!

Because nothing coming out of the mainstream sounds positive for Pontiac's future.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'd believe it if it made any ounce of sense... Almost as idiotic as Chrysler's supposed brand structuring.

[Camino LS6]

One glaring thing that really calls this into question (even without the BS call from Lutz) is that this would make absolutely no sense whatsoever for Chevy in North America.

MT is full of it.

[VenSeattle]

I'd believe it if it made any ounce of sense... Almost as idiotic as Chrysler's supposed brand structuring.

Good point... and for all intents and purposes, everything seems to verify Chrysler's intentions for brand restructuring.

I'm not saying I actually buy this story... but there's obviously some underlying buzz or disturbance with Pontiac or several stories creeping up (usually negative) wouldn't occur.

Outside of Pontiac's current line-up completing their lifecycle, Pontiac has a vehicle being imported for a few years and a vehicle built by a joint venture.

G6 will be around until when again? (2013) Alpha will arrive when? (2011) How old with the G8 be by then? (4 years)

[Northstar]

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not. :AH-HA_wink:

Well, I don't think he'd actually want to confirm that, so it has to be true.

[thegriffon]

Good point... and for all intents and purposes, everything seems to verify Chrysler's intentions for brand restructuring.

I'm not saying I actually buy this story... but there's obviously some underlying buzz or disturbance with Pontiac or several stories creeping up (usually negative) wouldn't occur.

Outside of Pontiac's current line-up completing their lifecycle, Pontiac has a vehicle being imported for a few years and a vehicle built by a joint venture.

G6 will be around until when again? (2013) Alpha will arrive when? (2011) How old with the G8 be by then? (4 years)

Errr, that should be the NG G6 around till 2013. Whether it is a separate program to the imminent E2 Chevy or more like the fwd Cutlass/Malibu twins is another matter. Given the recent CAFE agreement I can easily see GM cutting the G8 and G6 after that time, but that simply increases the desirability of a compact 4-cylinder model based on Alpha to replace all the current Pontiac sedans and coupes.

[Z-06]

Motor Trend uses Dulcolax to ease its Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Cheers and Gears gets an aftermath shock.

[Chris_Doane]

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not. :AH-HA_wink:

The G8 *is* headed for NA production. It's got a program code and everything

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

The G8 *is* headed for NA production. It's got a program code and everything

But when? Holden swears up and down their contract with GMNA is for the length of the current Commodore's lifecycle, i.e. 2012 or so. Wonder what Holden will do at Elizabeth to fill the G8 export volume of 30k-50k vehicles?

I *assume* it would be built in Oshawa. The Camaro starts production in Q4 2008, with the 'vert and hi-po variants starting a year later. Presumably the large "aspirational" RWD Chevy sedan will start sometime in 2010 as a 2011 model. When would the G8 replacement get added to the stable? What's the program code?

I don't believe the G8 could be built at Oshawa in its exact current form, seeing how Holden uses Blaupunkt for radios, Mitsubishi for alternators (and a whole slew of other Japanese suppliers), and their assembly methods/recipe don't translate well to the GM Production System that GMNA uses... some number of elements would have to be redesigned on the platform for GMNA assembly...

Edited December 4, 2007 by ZaphodBeeblebrox

[Z-06]

I don't believe the G8 could be built at Oshawa in its exact current form, seeing how Holden uses Blaupunkt for radios, Mitsubishi for alternators (and a whole slew of other Japanese suppliers), and their assembly methods/recipe don't translate well to the GM Production System that GMNA uses... some number of elements would have to be redesigned on the platform for GMNA assembly...

This is how they will do;

1. Fill Change of Address Form

2. Notify the suppliers of change in address

3. Receive parts in GMNA plant for the G8

[VenSeattle]

The G8 *is* headed for NA production. It's got a program code and everything

I wasn't actually questioning if G8 production was coming to the US or not... It was to bring attention to another recent article that had controversial details where feedback contradicted the article. NorthStar got my point

[hyperv6]

Ok we have a Magazine who is often wrong giving odd info. Ask Motor Trend where the new GTO is and all the wrong Vette info they always publish with the coming of every new generation.

We also have a poster who likes to repeat clock sounds but never really give any real solid info. He post often seldom saying a thing.

Then we have the Vice Chair of GM who says it is false.

I don't think any of us need need to panic yet. How often have we had a canceled Zeta and Camaro or other GM product that is still in the works or on the market? Could Pontiac fade away in the future but so could many other cars and lines in this troubled changing market.

Mr Tick Tock has a 50% chance of being right by not giving any details just like a Horoscope saying my future is bright or dark because I am a Leo. If I want vague future predictions I will read the funny page!!!! If I want better direction on where GM is going I will wait till better clear info is posted or reported.

I get the feeling GM is doing a lot of moving and changing direction of some models and line due to the goverments CAFE changes. This is a far reaching problem and will effect all companies and what future products they will build and sell. We are on the edge of seeing things we never expected in the cars we drive some good some not so good but if we want to get where we are going we will deal with it. We have heard the sky is falling so many times before but performance and good cars always find a way to the market.

So for now lets just take a deep breath and wait to hear some real info from a creditable person from GM. Don't let this get too far out of hand as while it could be bad news it could be no where near as bad as some think or want us to think it is.

If they killed Buick Pontiac and GMC tomarrow I would be very sad but life goes on and you have to run a company with your head and not your heart sometimes. There are good and bad that would go with killing any of these lines. I for one do not expect them to go but if they do so be it. Life is too short to get to worked up over this as there are far worse things in the world to worry about. No GM at all is a far worse thing than just one car line in this adapt or die world.

[Camino LS6]

But when? Holden swears up and down their contract with GMNA is for the length of the current Commodore's lifecycle, i.e. 2012 or so. Wonder what Holden will do at Elizabeth to fill the G8 export volume of 30k-50k vehicles?

I *assume* it would be built in Oshawa. The Camaro starts production in Q4 2008, with the 'vert and hi-po variants starting a year later. Presumably the large "aspirational" RWD Chevy sedan will start sometime in 2010 as a 2011 model. When would the G8 replacement get added to the stable? What's the program code?

I don't believe the G8 could be built at Oshawa in its exact current form, seeing how Holden uses Blaupunkt for radios, Mitsubishi for alternators (and a whole slew of other Japanese suppliers), and their assembly methods/recipe don't translate well to the GM Production System that GMNA uses... some number of elements would have to be redesigned on the platform for GMNA assembly...

Don't forget that all of the VEs are scheduled to conform to the GMNA spec zeta at the first opportunity: say for example an early MCE. That could put the changeover much closer than 2012. At that point, it wouldn't really be the "current" Commodore any more and the G8 can become a GMNA model. Hopefully, that will open up production capacity at Holden for other Zeta variants.

[gm4life]

Can anyone get Bob's email? Because I want it very badly! Also Pontiac really can't go anywhere they would loose to many sales.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I think if they absolutely had to, Pontiac could resort to making sporty, higher-performance front or all-wheel-drive cars. It worked in the 1980's with the Sunbird, Grand Am, 6000 and 1987-on Bonneville and 1988-on Grand Prix, as well as the rear-drive Firebird and Fiero (the others were just kind of there/Canadian tieovers and/or unsuccessful). But I hope Pontiac doesn't go that route, as Saturn has the upscale Euro-hold, and Chevy the mainstream hold, which leaves Pontiac....with....nothing really.

Point being, if they want Pontiac to survive and not go the way of Mercury or go the way of Oldsmobile, Plymouth, DeSoto, Eagle, and so forth, they need to give them more relevant, more focused products. Can a downsized rear-drive G6 (which I'll refer to as "Ventura") have a revived Chevy Nova companion? Sure. But Ventura, and any other Pontiac needs more than a squarish Pontiac grille which brings down the appearance of newbies such as G8 and the redesigned Vibe. How about bringing RAM AIR back for a Sprint package for example? Nova wouldn't get this package, and basically it would be a forced-air induction of a 2.4-liter ECOTEC, going from 177 to about 200hp or so out of the base 4-cylinder engine. And GT would mean more than just blackout trim: Sport suspension, upgraded and specific interior, a standard V-6 engine (probably a 255hp High Feature 3.6-liter, which could be optional for SJ, my base model), and more standard/optional equipment. And no, don't make SJ like Nova's CS/LS trim: it needs to be higher-tier than that.

Finally, GXP pulls out all the stops, with a minimum of 275hp, if not 300hp, out of the same 3.6 V-6.

And how about a subcompact rear-drive sports coupe shortened from Ventura? Think of it as a higher-performance, modern translation of the 1976-80 Sunbird, which I will call Cruise. It would be equipped like (but smaller than) a Scion tC, with naturally-aspirated, RAM AIR, and turbocharged (SJ/GT/Formula, respectively) of the 2.4-liter DOHC ECOTEC I-4.

And going furthest down the scale, we're not sending the ugly Wave here from Canada and Mexico for a subcompact!

No, we get the hot and trendy Pontiac Cyber, basically a Solstice Kappa made into a sporty performance subcompact car to counter the FWD MINI, but uniquely American, with naturally-aspirated, RAM AIR, and turbocharged 1.8 or 2.0-liter ECOTEC's. (Not to be shared with Chevy or any other division)

And give all, as well as the next G8 some real Pontiac style. No cladding, but push the styling envelope! And make sure there's some decent passenger and cargo room for the size.

[gm4life]

Sounds good too me I want Pontiac to have the RWD fullsize G8, midsize FWD G6, midsize-smallish RWD car, Solstice, Vibe and maybe some kind of SUV.