Pontiac's Death Blow????

[griff7774]

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_0802_alpha_platform_chevrolet

(please mod edit link for' me)

Edited December 3, 2007 by griff7774

[ZL-1]

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_0802_alpha_platform_chevrolet

(please mod edit link for' me)

Let me try: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_ne...tform_chevrolet. Looks like the Tick-Tock clock is running after all.

Since my own Tick-Tock clock has just sounded it's own alarm, this will be my last post here: I'll be a mere lurker/reader from now on. I wish you all the best in your personal and motoring lives! Au revoir!

Edited December 3, 2007 by ZL-1

[BatmanGTO]

Man....

[Drew Dowdell]

Interesting that this coincides with the departure of one regular in particular.....

[ToniCipriani]

Now the question is: who did they learn this from?

[NOS2006]

Wait, why? Sub-CTS size would be.. somewhere between the Cobalt and Malibu, right? Much closer to Cobalt size I'd presume. Sounds perfect and ideal for a Pontiac. If MT's correct, I just don't get it.

[AxelTheRed]

I'm gonna bet that this is gonna end up being another big, big mistake from the General.

Edited December 3, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[Intrepidation]

That is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long, long time.

[PONTIAC06]

I already vented my anger in the other thread about it...still TOTAL BULL$h!

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

Just as usual, Chevy gets all the new models and UN-DESERVED ATTENTION, while Pontiac and others struggles in the shadows, only getting their current models killed, and gets NOTHING new to their arsenal. At least this Chevy looks UGLY as hell, I hope it doesn't sell. Not even ONE, to help Chevy CLOSE DOWN INDEFINATELY. God I hate GM and their BABY Chevrolet's cheap Trash!!!!

[BigPontiac]

Hopefully this is really a Chevy branded Alpha being sold outside of North America similar to how the Holden Commodore is badged a Chevy Lumina in the Middle East markets. Otherwise, IMO it is a really stupid move.

[turbo200]

yes, hopefully we are all getting excited over nothing. though a RSX sized competitor to GTI and SI would be way cool, and a segment no other GM car competes in....

[ToniCipriani]

Hopefully this is really a Chevy branded Alpha being sold outside of North America similar to how the Holden Commodore is badged a Chevy Lumina in the Middle East markets. Otherwise, IMO it is a really stupid move.

Wait... why didn't I think of that... Middle East could definitely be where this belongs. But then why is MT saying NOT Pontiac?

There's hope, guys. There's hope.

[Z-06]

Since when did you guys start believing in Motor Trend?

[Oracle of Delphi]

This is the 1st of many important messages to come. The clock is ticking, I tried to warn you. There is something else coming that I don't think you see yet, but I do, oh brother I do. With that I will say no more. The die is cast! The players have been assembled, the show is about to begin. Enjoy your popcorn!

Edited December 3, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Croc]

This is the 1st of many important messages to come. The clock is ticking, I tried to warn you. There is something else coming that I don't think you see yet, but I do, oh brother I do. With that I will say no more. The die is cast! The players have been assembled, the show is about to begin. Enjoy your popcorn!

OK So Chevrolet cannot get an El Camino because it has "too many models" but now it gets Alpha from Pontiac? Aye...

If PCS didn't seem to be validating this, I wouldn't believe it.

[Intrepidation]

I guess it's time for Tick-Tock

[turbo200]

I still don't think it's necessary to believe. The only valid reason I could see someone at GM pushing for Alpha to go Chevy instead of Pontiac is for volume. BUT this would be the volume product over at Pontiac, and Pontiac has shown capability in the past to be a best seller with a compact and agressive car with the right pricing [19-26k] Grand Am.

Since when has PCS proven a reliable source on anything. All I hear is I hate Holden and doomsday theories coming from him that hold no water.

There is simply no room in the product lineup at Chevy for this to occupy, it would seriously overlap MAlibu and offer nothing in step with Chevy's linuep. And it's Motor Trend, when have they been right about anything.

by the way nice to see you back croc

[thegriffon]

I can see Pontiac not getting an Alpha model. I can see Holden getting an Alpha model for volume. I can see Buick China getting one to replace the Regal or Excelle (although they are going with Delta for the latter). I can, just barely, see Chevy getting one for sale in the Middle East and Latin America, where it is like Holden, a more inclusive brand. But especially if you're are going to badge the Commodore Ute as a Pontiac, I see no reason to sell an Alpha model as a Chevrolet in North America, when CAFE concerns may mean volume is restricted (unless of course it underpins the next-gen Camaro). I can even see a justification for a 4-cylinder Alpha sedan and coupe being the only 4/5-seat Pontiacs you can buy (i.e. Pontiac only selling the Solstice and a compact G5/Tempest coupe and sedan).

[Robert Hall]

It would make sense that Chevy get it instead of Saturn (if Pontiac is indeed going the way of Oldsmobile).

[cire]

I hope Motor Trend is mistaken about this scenario.

As some others have posted, this makes sense for the Middle East since they are receiving a clone G8/Commodore sedan badged as a Lumina. This product would complement the Lumina sedan in the Middle East as well as it would the G8 sedan in the U.S. and the Commodore in Australia. Maybe Motor Trend didn't get all the facts before they jumped the gun about releasing this information.

If Motor Trend is correct, then this is one of GM's silliest accountant dominated decisions in recent memory (besides the Ute trucklet being offered by Pontiac instead of Chevy or GM)

[Camino LS6]

It would make sense that Chevy get it instead of Saturn (if Pontiac is indeed going the way of Oldsmobile).

Which doesn't make sense when the same article says the Solstice gets the alpha treatment and a G8 family is being announced.

Something goofy is going on.

[gm4life]

Pontiac is not Oldsmobile they have way to much behind them. Trust I would bet they are working on a new G6 and we don't know about it. Olds had more over lapping with Buick than Pontiac does with Chevrolet trust me. Actually Pontiac is a brand that can be easy to justify because of the Solstice and G8 two vehicles Chevrolet offers nothing similar too. (At least not currently.) It could be the end for Pontiac after all but I highly doubt it.

Edited December 4, 2007 by gm4life

[Robert Hall]

Pontiac is not Oldsmobile they have way to much behind them. Trust I would bet they are working on a new G6 and we don't know about it.

Well, it seems PCS with his tick-tock has some inside info as to Pontiac's future... and with Pontiac part of the Pontiac-Buick-GMC structure, it wouldn't be that hard to phase out..

[hyperv6]

Well, it seems PCS with his tick-tock has some inside info as to Pontiac's future... and with Pontiac part of the Pontiac-Buick-GMC structure, it wouldn't be that hard to phase out..

I too can see how it would be easy to pull the plug on these three in one respect but to kill name equity and lose that market more share would be also hard for GM to take.

I to question Motor Trend as they have a record of not being accurate to a T.

Could this be GM's response to the new fuel milage requirements? Pontiac, Buick and GMC do little for CAFE at near 35 mpg.

If GM pulls the plug on PBG adding more Chevys will not help much. There are too many Chevys now.

I will not panic till I see anything from a more reliable outlet or GM. Even then what happens, happens.

[ocnblu]

I can't pretend to have a clue, but what if this is GM just backing away from Pontiac becoming all-RWD? It doesn't necessarily have to mean Pontiac is dead. At least I hope it doesn't.

[gm4life]

If PCS knows something about it we don't why can't he just tell us. Or maybe he is wishing death upon Pontiac since they killed the Grand Prix and made it a RWD Holden that he hates.

[Robert Hall]

If PCS knows something about it we don't why can't he just tell us. Or maybe he is wishing death upon Pontiac since they killed the Grand Prix and made it a RWD Holden that he hates.

Well, I'm sure he's under an NDA and can't spread rumours about insider knowledge. And he's got his own twisted agenda and probably gets off on messing with our heads..

Anyway, if this is true about the Alpha, it doesn't bode well for Pontiac and I can't see the strategy of having a compact RWD sedan between the Cobalt and Malibu...just seems to be too much for Chevy.

[Sixty8panther]

If Pontiac or Buick get deep sixed I'm done with GM.

They are sooooooo stupid sometimes.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Sixty8panther

[VenSeattle]

Let's just look at some of the information recently announced:

* Kappa moves to Bowling Green in 2011 (the plant will have 4+ products instead of 2 like at Wilmington)

* No confirmation that G8 manufacturing will be moved to the US

* Alpha will be going to Chevrolet, not Pontiac...

* Buick to have more models added (stated by Lutz)

* GMC gets TE SUV

* Pontiac getting Vibe from NUMMI

* Union Contract negotiations... any Pontiac product included in the commitment? No. What we got:

Pontiac G6 continues through 2013.

Guys...

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac is not Oldsmobile they have way to much behind them.

See this is where I disagree and am probably going to get shouted down for it. At the end of it's life, Oldsmobile had much more relevant product in terms of it's stated mission than Pontiac does now in terms if it's stated mission.

Oldsmobile was supposed to be understated yet classy in the price segment each vehicle occupied. In that regard, Olds succeeded.

Other than Solstice, where is the "Driving Excitement" at Pontiac?

[Robert Hall]

Other than Solstice, where is the "Driving Excitement" at Pontiac?

Well..the G8 is adding plenty in '08.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ok... that's two. Ute makes 3 if you count it as a separate model.

Point is, Pontiac is a lot closer to irrelevance now than Olds was when it died.

[Robert Hall]

Ok... that's two. Ute makes 3 if you count it as a separate model.

Point is, Pontiac is a lot closer to irrelevance now than Olds was when it died.

True enough... but, Pontiac does provide a step up from Chevy at the Avis counter..

[VenSeattle]

True enough... but, Pontiac does provide a step up from Chevy at the Avis counter..

You'd rather have a G6 over the new Malibu?

[Drew Dowdell]

True enough... but, Pontiac does provide a step up from Chevy at the Avis counter..

Sorry, I'd go with a Cobalt, Malibu, or Impala over a Vibe, G6, or GrandPrix.

[Robert Hall]

You'd rather have a G6 over the new Malibu?

Well, over the previous Malibu...I don't know if the new one has hit Avis yet..

[vonVeezelsnider]

If I Hit AVIS, I want a DTS, Lucerne or Grand Marquis :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

If I Hit AVIS, I want a DTS, Lucerne or Grand Marquis :AH-HA_wink:

When I hit Avis, I'm on a corporate account, so I'm stuck at the low rent end...but when I travel for fun, I hit Hertz for a Grand Marquis, Town Car, or Mustang convertible.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Why would GM kill Pontiac(the cars only division) when it is paired with GMC(the trucks only division) and keep Buick(cars and trucks)? It doesn't make any sense. Pontiac sold 24,xxx cars, Chevy sold 50,xxx cars, and Buick sells less than 10,000 cars.

[Northstar]

Let's just look at some of the information recently announced:

* Kappa moves to Bowling Green in 2011 (the plant will have 4+ products instead of 2 like at Wilmington)

I don't think that is true... do you have a link? The union contract says the Kappas stay in Wilmington until 2012. I also have another source of info that, while not as recent, says the NG Kappas are to be built at Wilmington.

* No confirmation that G8 manufacturing will be moved to the US

Not according to CD, and PCS confirmed it later in the thread.

The G8 will be built in NA in the not too distant future.

(From HERE)

* Alpha will be going to Chevrolet, not Pontiac...

I emailed Lutz about it, here is what he said (hopefully he does not care, he didn't care another time someone posted something he emailed them):

"Totally untrue. Don't believe everything you read on the internet! Valuable advice! Even in politics...or esecially!"

Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is from MT. I think that's a HUGE factor. I do think that it is quite possible Chevy is getting one, but for markets other than the US. The Pontiac could very well be done like the G8 -- the Chevy will a different front end and perhaps rear fascia.

* Buick to have more models added (stated by Lutz)

I can see this being interpreted two ways, but I would definitely still be surprised if Buick didn't get more than 3 models. What I was saying about interpreted two ways is this: The NG Lucerne wasn't too far along, and perhaps the Enclave's success made it a definite go when it was possibly on the "It's time to either kill or green light this project." "Adding models" could mean deciding to give one the go rather than the ax. It's also possible they'll bring the Delta Buick here, though I haven't seen anything solid about that. Perhaps a Zeta coupe could also get the go and/or a Statesman model above the NG Lucerne. Perhaps a TE too. Again, we haven't had anything solid on anything of those, but I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them (or perhaps more) were approved.

* GMC gets TE SUV

Torrent should have never been a Pontiac, this is a good move. Pontiac is getting the UTE and wagon G8 for cargo-moving capabilities instead.

* Pontiac getting Vibe from NUMMI

What is wrong with this? The Vibe has always come from NUMMI.

* Union Contract negotiations... any Pontiac product included in the commitment? No. What we got:

Pontiac G6 continues through 2013.

The Solstice also has "continues until 2012." The Alpha vehicle is also on there, though I happen to think that is the BTS or whatever it is called. It corresponds with the end of production for the current BTS more or less. It does say 2 styles, however. This could mean a sedan and coupe or wagon, etc., or it could mean 2 different brands. Note that the document says LGR gets two Zeta styles, and I'm 99% sure those are the DTS/STS replacement and the NG Lucerne.

----------------------

Again, for everyone to see, here is Lutz's quote about the MT article:

"Totally untrue. Don't believe everything you read on the internet! Valuable advice! Even in politics...or esecially!"

Take it for what it's worth. Also please realize where the info is coming from in the first place, Motor Trash.

[NOS2006]

Why would GM kill Pontiac(the cars only division) when it is paired with GMC(the trucks only division) and keep Buick(cars and trucks)? It doesn't make any sense. Pontiac sold 24,xxx cars, Chevy sold 50,xxx cars, and Buick sells less than 10,000 cars.

Why wouldn't they kill Pontiac? I mean, there's probably a nice list of pros and cons. Pontiac may sell 24,xxx/year, but if GM can re-allocate the number of Pontiacs sold to other brands (i.e. G6 buyers get a Malibu, G8 buyers get an Impala, etc.) they wouldn't have to design or engineer those Pontiac cars, cutting cost there, and would be able to use that money to improve the vehicles in the other brands.

[Robert Hall]

Why wouldn't they kill Pontiac? I mean, there's probably a nice list of pros and cons. Pontiac may sell 24,xxx/year, but if GM can re-allocate the number of Pontiacs sold to other brands (i.e. G6 buyers get a Malibu, G8 buyers get an Impala, etc.) they wouldn't have to design or engineer those Pontiac cars, cutting cost there, and would be able to use that money to improve the vehicles in the other brands.

And Buick has some international marketshare (China, Middle East) while Pontiac is NA only... it seems the most obvious of GM's brands to cut, unfortunately..

FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s:

Buick: 240k

Chevy: 2.4M

GMC: 480k

Pontiac: 410k

Edited December 4, 2007 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

Most obvious?

I think not.

Let's not forget Saab.

Pontiac is GM's best opportunity to really shine with a new and interesting lineup. Right now it really is a clean slate.

[Robert Hall]

Most obvious?

I think not.

Let's not forget Saab.

Pontiac is GM's best opportunity to really shine with a new and interesting lineup. Right now it really is a clean slate.

Saab's sales are small in the US, but they still have a European market presence. Pontiac is only in NA....

[ToniCipriani]

Saab's sales are small in the US, but they still have a European market presence. Pontiac is only in NA....

Then you should say kill Vauxhall. It's UK only. Or Holden. It's Australasia only. Or Opel. It's Europe Only.

Only in NA doesn't merit it to be killed. Yes, GMNA right now is the weakest of them, but as Camino was saying, Pontiac has the most potential now.

[Robert Hall]

Then you should say kill Vauxhall. It's UK only. Or Holden. It's Australasia only. Or Opel. It's Europe Only.

Only in NA doesn't merit it to be killed. Yes, GMNA right now is the weakest of them, but as Camino was saying, Pontiac has the most potential now.

Invalid reasoning. Opel's in 30+ countries...Pontiac's in 3...

I think Pontiac has a lot of potential and I'd love to see them revived...but I think GM would terminate the brand in a heartbeat if they thought they couldn't make a sufficient ROI on it.

Edited December 4, 2007 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

I still believe killing any brand would be a grave error.

Especially now.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Invalid reasoning. Opel's in 30+ countries...Pontiac's in 3...

I think Pontiac has a lot of potential and I'd love to see them revived...but I think GM would terminate the brand in a heartbeat if they thought they couldn't make a sufficient ROI on it.

The US has sales equivalent to 30+ countries. Shouldn't that count for something?

[balthazar]

>>"Pontiac has the most potential now."<<

Have to agree vs. the others mentioned above; saab is crippled by a rigid heritage that does not allow 'reinventing' the brand without angering all 200 loyal buyers worldwide. Pontiac sells nearly 4 times saab's volume based on the '04 # above yet has a progressive-enough history that they are not locked into design reguritation for 25 years. Saab will never be any more than it is right now, only way it can go is down.

>>"FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s: GMC: 480k"<<

This must be a partial year figure (thru October??); in 2004 GMC sold 598K. I don't recall anything that could be responsible for a 100K loss...