2008 MT Car of the Year Award goes to...

[smk4565]

M3 CSL did lose weight, but it gained price by about 95% compared to the bread and butter M3. The super corvette is going to be in the same boat, but with added power and lesser price jump compared to the Z06. It is not that GM does not have the desire to lose weight in its cars, it simply cannot lose the weight because of the economics.

The way CTS has evolved, I do not see Cadillac bringing ugly cheap ass interiors to ANY car bearing the wreath badge. Talk to Jim Taylor and he will tell you how important quality and interior are to Cadillac.

BMW's economic situation allows them to cut weight with aluminum and carbon fiber, Jaguar does it in the XJ, Audi does it. If GM can't because of their union contract or other economic factors, that will make it harder for them to compete with the super luxury cars.

The BTS's interior has to be at a minimum to the level that the CTS is now. The current CTS is much better than the old, although the seats I think got worse, and the new CTS doesn't even have 4 way lumbar. I am sure they saved $18 by using 2 way instead of 4, but the competition doesn't think like that. I'd like to see Cadillac make the best cars, I'd rather buy a Cadillac than an import, but Cadillac doesn't have a lot of variety now, or several good products that build a strong brand image.

[Z-06]

BMW's economic situation allows them to cut weight with aluminum and carbon fiber, Jaguar does it in the XJ, Audi does it. If GM can't because of their union contract or other economic factors, that will make it harder for them to compete with the super luxury cars.

Yeah like Audi A8 which is still heavy as a brick despite of using high-tech aluminum body. Or that midget Bentley Continental GT with all the exotic materials still weighs equivalent to my company's 4WD Chevy Silverado 5000 odd lbs.

[smk4565]

>>"...BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less"<<

If they are brand "faithful", they are not going to switch no matter what the competition offers. '600 hp, 50 MPG, 1.0 Gs but no roundel? No thanks!' I am positive that a scary amount of BMW & M-B buyers are customers primarily for the badge, not for 0.3 sec less time to 100 MPH. Take a look at BMW drivers and you'll see the full spectrum, not just the Aryian, exposed-knuckle driving-gloved fashion model BMW would like you to think are their sole consumers.

Cadillac DOES NOT need to steal the other brand faithfuls, only those who are NOT blind loyalists and shop the full segment, which is a FAR FAR larger segment than merely the blind loyalists.

Well even for people that never bought a luxury car, and are looking at their first, and narrow it down to 3-series and BTS. Chances are the BTS having a lower base price won't win any buyers, BMW's image is so strong, that alone is enough to get buyers that are on the fence. People will drive the 3-series and the BTS, (or C350, Is350, whatever) and they'll probably buy the one that drives best and looks best and conveys the image they want to convey.

BMW says "performance" and "I've made it" or whatever tagline of success you want to use. Cadillac still means "old person's car" to a lot of people. Cadillac has the duel challenge of making a car equal to the imports, but also changing their image, price of the car won't really matter. The 5-series is way more expensive than a CTS, yet BMW sales keep going up, charging high prices hasn't hurt them one bit.

[Z-06]

Well even for people that never bought a luxury car, and are looking at their first, and narrow it down to 3-series and BTS.

Wow comparing a car which does not exist other than on the paper to the one that is already there.

Chances are the BTS having a lower base price won't win any buyers, BMW's image is so strong, that alone is enough to get buyers that are on the fence.

Wrong, I know four instances including myself who did not go for the BMW, despite having the so called strong image. Someone seeking balance of value, sportiness, price, and performance will not go for BMW in that category despite sitting on the fence.

People will drive the 3-series and the BTS, (or C350, Is350, whatever) and they'll probably buy the one that drives best and looks best and conveys the image they want to convey.

Again comparing a non existent car. But that car will probably be the BTS.

The reason why people gobbled TSX despite being a FWD was, it was a far complete package than the then E46 325, Audi 1.8-2.0T and C230. Start pricing the Germans and they ended up being at least $4,500 dearer to the Acura offering similar ammenities. I have driven all four and have owned the TSX for 10 months, and I can tell I can totally understand why Car and Driver loved that vehicle. If Caddy has BTS there, and I am sure it will start under 30K, because if not it will be encroaching the CTS, I see a strong value in that car.

Personally I want to see BTS as a completely loaded no-option car with take it or leave it way, just like the TSX. You exactly know what you are getting for.

BMW says "performance" and "I've made it" or whatever tagline of success you want to use. Cadillac still means "old person's car" to a lot of people. Cadillac has the duel challenge of making a car equal to the imports, but also changing their image, price of the car won't really matter. The 5-series is way more expensive than a CTS, yet BMW sales keep going up, charging high prices hasn't hurt them one bit.

Be patient my dear. Old CTS did well despite of the crappy interior. British rags raved its driveability despite of its interior. The new one is a step forward. Not that I am doubting show me the charts comparing the CTS and the 5 series in terms of sale.

[regfootball]

the B-series needs to offer everything the CTS does, offer another fresh take on the Cadillac styling theme that will again make people notice [even moreso than CTS does], and most importantly weigh much less and PERFORM. Offer a ride/handling balance that hasn't been hit by another automaker, while still managing to have a great road feel. think 3-series as a target for this. This will be one of the hardest targets to define since you really don't know where BMW is going next gen, except possibly the obvious which is more handling prowess with an improved balance of road feel and ride. Can a sedan get much better performing than the current 335i?

too bad the 328 is likely what sells the most

[balthazar]

>>"Chances are the BTS having a lower base price won't win any buyers,"<<

Lot more to evaluate that just price. Offering merely a different interior, exterior and driving dynamic very well should. Offering a better experience in even just some of those, will.

>>"BMW's image is so strong, that alone is enough to get buyers that are on the fence.

BMW says "performance" and "I've made it" or whatever tagline of success you want to use."<<

Also still means 'prick' and 'a$$hole driver' to a lot of people, perhaps the huge volume that does NOT automatically buy BMW, even tho they read gushing magazine reviews EVERY SINGLE MONTH on the newstand.

Why, ask yourself, doesn't BMW command 80% of each segment they offer a car in instead of a minority percentage? How possibly could acura, lexus, mercedes, jaguar, Cadillac, audi and a handful of others sell ANY cars at all? Who are these consumers picking these brands over BMW, and why?

Perhaps... just perhaps, their criteria for purchasing a luxury sedan are not the same as yours, hmmm? Perhaps they take one look at a BMW interior and turn right around and walk out the door. I'm sure the reasons are many.

>>"People will drive the 3-series and the BTS, (or C350, Is350, whatever) and they'll probably buy the one that drives best and looks best and conveys the image they want to convey."<<

Right- different strokes for different folks. Some will indeed buy the Cadillac- just as they did the CTS when before there was no model in this segment. (Catera?- please!)

>>"Cadillac still means "old person's car" to a lot of people. "<<

Not to those who've driven a CTS, it doesn't. Those that are blind loyalists or refuse to even check out a CTS have invalid biases- they're not dealing with reality. Should Cadillac spend time & money to court the intentionally irrational? With you, at least it doesn't cost us here anything besides small slivers of sanity & a few minutes typing; no money at stake.

[smk4565]

Well obviously a BMW isn't for everyone, my mom for example won't buy a BMW, Cadillac or Mercedes because they are too recognizable, and she has to drives to clients houses and prefers something more bland, or less common. She's had 3 Volvos, a Saab and now and Audi over the last 22 years.

Some people like floaty ride, so Lexus comes in here, and some people just want something not too expensive and similar to the Accord or Fusion they just got rid of, thus the TL and MKZ. But the 3-series sells over 120,000 units a year in the US, far more than any other competitor (I know they have coupe, convertible and a wagon they sell 1000 of).

Cadillac keeps claiming they are going for BMW type handling, or dramatic performance/luxury/style, when Bob Lutz says a CTS-V will suck the doors of the M5, it better. If they set the bar that high, they better reach it.

The CTS has to go way up in price when the BTS arrives, look at Cadillac's pricing, $32k base and a pair of $43k base sedans. Then look at a Mercedes, 32k base, next cheapest is $51k base, CLS is in the $70s, S-class is $88k base.

[smk4565]

A sedan can get better than the 335i, the M3 sedan comes out soon.

I don't know exactly what 5-series sales are this year, but BMW as a whole has been up every month, while most other brands are in down years.

If GM has a $2500 labor cost penalty over most imports, and prices their car $2000 less than the 3-series, they are either making $4500 less in profit, or putting $4500 less into it, or some combination in between. I just don't think cheaper than a BMW beats BMW, Cadillac has built cheaper cars than them for years. The BTS should be designed to beat the 3-series and priced after, not priced beforehand, like with the Solstice, so they had to strip it down and cut corners to match the 20k price.

[balthazar]

>>"Well obviously a BMW isn't for everyone"<<

Right!- so "beating" a BMW only creates a car 'beyond a BMW' if you get me- something even more at odds with the desires of those consumers who don't want a BMW.

Let's let Cadillac continue in the direction they have since 2002- they earned those 60,000+ sales in the segment whereas 10 years ago Cadillac's segment sales were 0.

'Beat BMW' is not selling the CTS, building a great entry-level Cadillac that runs on the strengths Cadillac is known for, is.

>>"Cadillac keeps claiming they are going for BMW type handling"<<

It's not a claim.

[2QuickZ's]

If GM has a $2500 labor cost penalty over most imports, and prices their car $2000 less than the 3-series, they are either making $4500 less in profit, or putting $4500 less into it, or some combination in between.

The cost penalty of which you speak would almost certainly NOT apply to any vehicle made in western Europe. Most western European countries have very militant unions and are therefore forced to pay their employees VERY well. If there is any advantage, it would be in currency exchange rates. In this case, both the euro and British pound are worth far more than the dollar, which should automatically handicap them.

The labor disadvantage you refer to is primarily for Japanese transplants producing vehicles in the U.S. at non-union plants. Of course, any car imported from a low cost country would also benefit from a labor cost advantage.

Edited November 23, 2007 by 2QuickZ's

[Z-06]

A sedan can get better than the 335i, the M3 sedan comes out soon.

I don't know exactly what 5-series sales are this year, but BMW as a whole has been up every month, while most other brands are in down years.

If GM has a $2500 labor cost penalty over most imports, and prices their car $2000 less than the 3-series, they are either making $4500 less in profit, or putting $4500 less into it, or some combination in between. I just don't think cheaper than a BMW beats BMW, Cadillac has built cheaper cars than them for years. The BTS should be designed to beat the 3-series and priced after, not priced beforehand, like with the Solstice, so they had to strip it down and cut corners to match the 20k price.

Wrong about the cheaper car cannot beat BMW. Acura TL was the best selling entry level luxury sport sedan for 2005 and 2006 in USA, beating the BMW 3-series sedan. Imagine if Acura had the similar lineup like BMW, it would have beaten the BMW easily.

And price based costing strategy is better than the cost based pricing. Because if you charge more than what your product's perception value is worth, nobody will pay for it. Previous generation Cadillac CTS came loaded for just above 41K, which worked fine as it was a new car and people needed to get warmed to it. The current one comes loaded for about higher 40's. That is certainly a development. Give another generation and it may sneak into the Beemer 5er territory. If Caddy would have charged the customers price into the league of the 5er for the current generation CTS, that would have been a huge jump compared to the older generation and people would balk at it. Look at lexus, they started well under the radar of the Germans with the IS, now they are sitting besides them in price. You cannot jump right off with the BTS in regards to pricing, because if you do so, chances are you will slaughter the CTS, which will be just a bit expensive, unless your market estimate is spot on for both the cars to comingle, which is never the case.

The current CTS starts at 33K, you cannot start charging the BTS 34K to compete with the 3er, that will be ridiculous. BTS should be charged a little under 30K, then push the price envelope higher with the next generation CTS and so forth.

And besides that you should not be chasing BMW, like Balthy said. What if the rags start humping the Infiniti? Now the target has moved, so Caddy should start going behind them?

Caddy should be a class of its own, let the people compare with whatever they want to, just like they are doing with the current CTS. The current CTS sits squat between the 3 and 5, so let others compare wherever they want the car to be in, so as long the car is competitive, sporty, and has a good value, people will buy it. Oudoing a BMW is being ridiculous.

Edited November 23, 2007 by smallchevy

[smk4565]

So price the BTS with a loaded Camry V6 or a Pontiac G8? Is that what a Cadillac should cost? $32,900 is as low as the BTS should go. CTS will need a massive overhaul to take on cars like the Jaguar XF, unless Cadillac's goal is to be a $30-50k player, and not challenge the higher end luxury marks. But they never really explain what the goal is.

[smk4565]

The whole Acura brand has 149,000 sales for 2007 through October (down 9.7%), the TL has 48,400 of those. The 3-series so far this year has sold 118,000 units, more than double the TL. BMW has sold 240,000 total, up 8.6% this year. Acura and their dressed Accord are not hurting anyone, the C-class sold twice as many in October.

5-series sold 4943 in October, 43,000 so far this year.

Edited November 23, 2007 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

Well even for people that never bought a luxury car, and are looking at their first, and narrow it down to 3-series and BTS. Chances are the BTS having a lower base price won't win any buyers, BMW's image is so strong, that alone is enough to get buyers that are on the fence. People will drive the 3-series and the BTS, (or C350, Is350, whatever) and they'll probably buy the one that drives best and looks best and conveys the image they want to convey.

BMW says "performance" and "I've made it" or whatever tagline of success you want to use. Cadillac still means "old person's car" to a lot of people. Cadillac has the duel challenge of making a car equal to the imports, but also changing their image, price of the car won't really matter. The 5-series is way more expensive than a CTS, yet BMW sales keep going up, charging high prices hasn't hurt them one bit.

Images can change fast. The first CTS helped and there are a whole bunch of happy 03-07 CTS owners out there that will love to step into an 08. The new CTS doesn't leave the previous generation owners behind but still brings in the new ones too. The new CTS looks fresh and new even though it's an evolution of the previous generation. The 3-series is close enough to the older model that non-car people could get the two confused.

[Drew Dowdell]

So price the BTS with a loaded Camry V6 or a Pontiac G8? Is that what a Cadillac should cost? $32,900 is as low as the BTS should go. CTS will need a massive overhaul to take on cars like the Jaguar XF, unless Cadillac's goal is to be a $30-50k player, and not challenge the higher end luxury marks. But they never really explain what the goal is.

To start... yes.

and you're so full of it. The Camry V6 loaded MSRPs at 35k. The 328i bases at 32k. Is that where BMW should be? If not, why are they building the 1-series?

[97regalGS]

>>"...BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less"<<

If they are brand "faithful", they are not going to switch no matter what the competition offers. '600 hp, 50 MPG, 1.0 Gs but no roundel? No thanks!' I am positive that a scary amount of BMW & M-B buyers are customers primarily for the badge, not for 0.3 sec less time to 100 MPH. Take a look at BMW drivers and you'll see the full spectrum, not just the Aryian, exposed-knuckle driving-gloved fashion model BMW would like you to think are their sole consumers.

Cadillac DOES NOT need to steal the other brand faithfuls, only those who are NOT blind loyalists and shop the full segment, which is a FAR FAR larger segment than merely the blind loyalists.

yup - it is all about brand image. BMW has it, Cadillac doesn't. while Cadillac's cars are making progress towards respectability (measured against the market leaders in the luxury automotive segment, as determined by the market/car buying public) their brand appeal, outisde of the hip-hop Escalade, has not.

[regfootball]

BMW is totally about whoring themselves out to whoever these days. why else would they bring in the 1 series? more gen y punks with their first paycheck willing to pony up.

luxury cars used to be about arriving first, and then buying the car. the euros found out this twisted economy and 'gotta have it' attititude of gen y, they are willing to spend all their income on having a car that makes it seem they are rich.

i like the 3 series but unless you get one that's around 45-50k, its pretty cheap looking, not to mention small.

CTS is a real solid car for the money. at least you get SOME luxury with a CTS now. Not all 3's.

Funny thing, the last gen CTS was appealing because it wasn't so luxurious. The new one border a tish on going too far in that direction, but i suspect the CTS v will totally correct that.

[balthazar]

>>"yup - it is all about brand image. BMW has it, Cadillac doesn't. "<<

10 years ago this would be very true, but not so much anymore. Cadillac has moved a lot farther on people's radar than BMW in the same timeframe.

Then again, image is often in the eye of the beholder.

[smk4565]

To start... yes.

and you're so full of it. The Camry V6 loaded MSRPs at 35k. The 328i bases at 32k. Is that where BMW should be? If not, why are they building the 1-series?

A Camry XLE V6, with the Option B package (the most expensive one) that as nav system and Bluetooth, and XM radio added for $490 comes to $31,969 including destination charge. $32,400 for a base 328i, and that car comes pretty stripped down, $32,900 for a BTS makes sense. It shouldn't overlap with Maximas, G8s, TSX, etc. 1-series has been a success in Europe because it is small and very fuel efficient with the diesels (near 50 mpg), and BMW is a broader range brand there. The 1-series we are getting is still near 30k to start, I know the 135i is $34,900 base. They also expect to only sell 20,000 or so a year here.

BMW also makes a car with a $120,000 price tag, there is enough at the top end to keep brand image high. Cadillac's image is still defined somewhat by the DTS, which isn't a good thing. More importantly though, BMW knows what they are, and where they want to go. Cadillac still seems lost, unsure whether to be performance, or cushy, or big, or small, $35k or $80k.

[smk4565]

Cadillac's image has improved over 10 years, but they still lag. BMW and Mercedes are already on top.

I would argue that BMW getting Gen Y people to buy their cars is a good thing, if a 30 year old buys a BMW, they may buy them for the next 40 years. The DTS is bought by 70 year olds, they might not be alive long enough to buy another one. Cadillac needs younger buyers, they are still around a 60 years old average.

I'd like to see Cadillac's goal to be to return to "standard of the world" but unfortunately I don't think GM is committed to them enough to make it happen.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why do you challenge me on numbers? You know I pwn you every time....

[Cory Wolfe]

Course... Anyone would be out of their mind to pay that much for a Camry.

[Drew Dowdell]

Course... Anyone would be out of their mind to pay that much for a RWD Civic Type-R.

[Northstar]

They're essentially the same price if you don't put $2100 wheels and tires on the Camry.

No one buys a base 3-Series. Need proof? A dealer in Chicago has 39 3-Series in stock, the cheapest of which is $34,950, and only 7 of which are under $40k. That's 32 vehicles over $40k, the vast, vast majority. The base price could be $36k and they'd sell 97% as many.

No one cross shops a Camry and a 3-Series, either, so it's stupid to compare them in the first place.

[Cory Wolfe]

The 3er didn't exactly buy it's reputation as a great driver's car. It earned it. One could argue it's lost a bit of that by growing larger, which, still isn't large enough according to you. Want a superbly driving car? Buy a 3er. Want a superbly styled car? Buy a CTS. And before you say it, that's not saying the CTS isn't a great driver's car in its own respect. However, what you harp against is what makes the 3er better in that regard. The CTS is really in larger size-class and is more middle of the road of sport-luxury sedans. Sort of... best of both worlds.

Now, Drew, stop dissing the 3er. There's not a thing wrong with it besides not satisfying the size-queen in you.

Edited November 24, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Drew Dowdell]

Now, Drew, stop dissing the 3er. There's not a thing wrong with it besides not satisfying the size-queen in you.

It may surprise all of you, but I don't really have anything against the 3er other than it being used inappropriately as a benchmark against anything in the 30k-50k range.

[Northstar]

It may surprise all of you, but I don't really have anything against the 3er other than it being used inappropriately as a benchmark against anything in the 30k-50k range.

It is a benchmark in the $30-50k range, I don't see anything inappropriate about it. What delivers more performance for the price while still offering a pretty good interior and a prestigious brand? Nothing. It's simply the best handling and performing car you can buy in that price range.

The CTS could be considered a benchmark for offering the best mix of performance, luxury, and comfortable ride in the $30-50k segment, as well, but it's not a benchmark if you're only looking at performance.

BTS needs to benchmark the 3er for performance, because it will be of similar size.

[Drew Dowdell]

It is a benchmark in the $30-50k range, I don't see anything inappropriate about it.

I said "used inappropriately on anything in the 30k-50k range".

Do you really think that it's appropriate to compare it anything in that range?

The 328i is a basic RWD compact sport sedan yet it gets compare to everything from near full size luxury sedans to FWD midsizers to your everyday De Lux family car simply because they all share a price point.

The truth is, only Audi, Infiniti, Mercedes, and maybe Lexus play in the 3-series class. The CTS plays at the lower half of the E-class, 5-series, GS, A6 range.

[Z-06]

The whole Acura brand has 149,000 sales for 2007 through October (down 9.7%), the TL has 48,400 of those. The 3-series so far this year has sold 118,000 units, more than double the TL. BMW has sold 240,000 total, up 8.6% this year. Acura and their dressed Accord are not hurting anyone, the C-class sold twice as many in October.

5-series sold 4943 in October, 43,000 so far this year.

Dude, you don't read completely do you?

I said the TL was the best selling SEDAN for 2005 and 2006 in its category, besting the BMW 3er SEDANS. NOT the 3-Series as a WHOLE.

Here are the sales of the TL for 2005 and 2006.

2005 - 78,218

2006 - 71,348

The BMW sedans in the same period were the following:

325/328

2005 - 49,553

2006 - 46,412

330/335

2005 - 20,017

2006 - 17,965

Total Sedan Sales

2005 - 69,570

2006 - 64,377

Now you do the math.

[Northstar]

I said "used inappropriately on anything in the 30k-50k range".

Do you really think that it's appropriate to compare it anything in that range?

The 328i is a basic RWD compact sport sedan yet it gets compare to everything from near full size luxury sedans to FWD midsizers to your everyday De Lux family car simply because they all share a price point.

The truth is, only Audi, Infiniti, Mercedes, and maybe Lexus play in the 3-series class. The CTS plays at the lower half of the E-class, 5-series, GS, A6 range.

I think I answered that question in my post, but perhaps not that clearly, so I'll reiterate - it IS the benchmark if you want a sport sedan in that price range. Nothing else is as good as a sport sedan. As I said, if you want more luxury, the CTS is, IMO, probably the benchmark as a sport luxury sedan in that segment. The CTS even makes a strong case as the simply the best luxury sedan too, though you may be able to find something a bit more luxurious and with more of a cushy ride in the upper price points ($45+k). There is nothing with the CTS not being as sporty as the 3-Series, but the BTS needs to be, simply because a compact sedan isn't going to be the most comfortable, and isn't going to be the most luxurious sedan out there in the $30-50k price range. The small size of the 3-Series is what gives it the ability to be so nimble and agile, so what gives one a reason to buy a car in the 3er segment if it isn't more fun to drive? Who's going to pick a sedan that's equal in everything else, and perhaps even has a better interior, but doesn't drive as well? I'm pretty sure most people would pick the car that drives better, which is a main reason why the 3er has been so successful.

In short, the 3er is a benchmark, but no, it is not a benchmark for anything in that range. It is a benchmark for any sport sedan in that range. If one wants the sportiest sedan one can buy in that range, one would likely buy the 3er.

The 3-Series defines the segment it is in, and I see no reason for the BTS to not be a mirror image of the 3-Series with different styling. If Alpha was identical to the 3-Series platform, that would probably be ideal. GM can style and design a better interior on top of the platform than BMW has done with the current 3-Series.

Oh, and on another similar subject, expect the next 5er to become porkier, seeing as how it got a marginal rating for side impact crashes. Even with head curtain and torso airbags, it scored a poor for torso injury, and an average for the pelvis/leg. The structure scored an average, as well. Looks like some more steel will be required in those doors next time around, so much for carbon fiber and aluminum keeping the weight down :AH-HA_wink:

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm pretty sure most people would pick the car that drives better, which is a main reason why the 3er has been so successful.

I agree with all the points in your post except this one. The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track. The 3-series has been so successful because it's the cheapest car with the blue and white rondel on the hood. I highly doubt that Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i for highschool graduation will be pushing the car past 7/10th of it's capabilities. She is just happy that she has one and Shirley Trailerpark doesn't.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Northstar]

I agree with all the points in your post except this one. The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track. The 3-series has been so successful because it's the cheapest car with the blue and white rondel on the hood. I highly doubt that Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i for highschool graduation will be pushing the car past 7/10th of it's capabilities. She is just happy that she has one and Shirley Trailerpark doesn't.

I think you could notice the 3-Series's advantages over the CTS around town -- it can fit into smaller places, be tossed around corners more easily, easier to part, etc., all due to smaller size.

Perhaps I should restate the part you quoted: I'm pretty sure most people who are looking for a small sport sedan because they want a small, sporty sedan, would pick the car that drives better. This does not include Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i because it is the cheapest car with blue and white rondel on the hood.

It would be interesting to know how many Suzy McMansions get 3ers vs. how many people buy them because they drive better than other cars. Regardless, I think the BTS needs to match the 3er in handling and performance. Suzy McMansion may not want the 3er because it can be tossed around turns easily, but that isn't making her not want to buy it either. I see little reason for the BTS to not match the 3er in handling just because there are thousands of Suzy McMansions who don't care if it's the best handling car in it's class. There are also thousands of enthusiasts who do care that it is the best handling car in it's class. Not going for the sportiest handling possible does alienate the people that want the sportiest handling possible, but having the sportiest handling possible does not alienate the Suzy McMansions of the world.

A Suzy McMansion suspension package could be offered to keep costs down by offering less expensive mechanicals so that more Suzy McMansions can buy the BTS

[Z-06]

I think you could notice the 3-Series's advantages over the CTS around town -- it can fit into smaller places, be tossed around corners more easily, easier to part, etc., all due to smaller size.

Perhaps I should restate the part you quoted: I'm pretty sure most people who are looking for a small sport sedan because they want a small, sporty sedan, would pick the car that drives better. This does not include Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i because it is the cheapest car with blue and white rondel on the hood.

It would be interesting to know how many Suzy McMansions get 3ers vs. how many people buy them because they drive better than other cars. Regardless, I think the BTS needs to match the 3er in handling and performance. Suzy McMansion may not want the 3er because it can be tossed around turns easily, but that isn't making her not want to buy it either. I see little reason for the BTS to not match the 3er in handling just because there are thousands of Suzy McMansions who don't care if it's the best handling car in it's class. There are also thousands of enthusiasts who do care that it is the best handling car in it's class. Not going for the sportiest handling possible does alienate the people that want the sportiest handling possible, but having the sportiest handling possible does not alienate the Suzy McMansions of the world.

A Suzy McMansion suspension package could be offered to keep costs down by offering less expensive mechanicals so that more Suzy McMansions can buy the BTS

I for one who is not Suzy McMansion will buy the BMW, just for its handling and performance, and pushing it to the limits. But unlike Suzy McMansion I will not get a 328i, to me that is a neutered 3er.

The old 3er was a good vehicle. The 330i can be easily pushed in the corners, and for its compactness made a perfect companion on the twisties. As I had started a thread about what the next G6 should be, I think GM in general misses that kind of vehicle. Add a turbo 2.0DI, keep the weight around 3100-3200lb, put the FE3, price it around $26-29K and people will line to buy one. To put more spice in it let GMPP customize the hell out of the parts to suit the drivers needs. Honestly, there is no vehicle which is in the market like that. It will bring the people looking for a performance car, but cannot afford a RWD entry level, thus ending up buying the mid-sizer, and also people looking to beat the entry level with a cheaper car.

[CARBIZ]

I agree with all the points in your post except this one. The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track. The 3-series has been so successful because it's the cheapest car with the blue and white rondel on the hood. I highly doubt that Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i for highschool graduation will be pushing the car past 7/10th of it's capabilities. She is just happy that she has one and Shirley Trailerpark doesn't.

And that is where the nitpicking drives me crazy! Plus, there is a difference between the way a vehicles rides and the way it handles. I will always choose a vehicle that rides better over a vehicle that handles better. Unless you get into extremely complicated (read: expensive) suspensions, like in the Corvette for example, the two are mutually exclusive. This is where the market (as dictated by the self-appointed experts has diverged over the past 25 years. Whereas, 'floaty' suspensions were all the rage decades ago, we are being forced into rides that make you feel every frost heave, every bump in the road. This is why I don't like the BMW philosophy, and would choose a (traditional) Cadillac, Lincoln or Buick any day over the BMW or Mercedes.

I find all of this mystifying because our roads are getting worse, not better. Now that we literally have bridges falling down, pavement is becoming more coarse and tell me - where does one get to 'open up' a car these days? Photo radar, red light cameras, 'facility' insurance rates....I think you get the picture.

[nferr]

I agree with all the points in your post except this one. The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track. The 3-series has been so successful because it's the cheapest car with the blue and white rondel on the hood. I highly doubt that Suzy McMansion who gets a 328i for highschool graduation will be pushing the car past 7/10th of it's capabilities. She is just happy that she has one and Shirley Trailerpark doesn't.

That's not true. Have you driven both. I have. The BMW steers faster, goes faster, has a more taut suspension, the engine sounds better and feels sportier. Now perhaps on sheer numbers they may perform close (I don't really think so), but the BMW 3-series feels like it handles better and that's what sells in the showrooms.

Cadillac has to compete on it's own merits because it can't (and shouldn't) try to be a better BMW.

[sciguy_0504]

Glad to hear it.

[Drew Dowdell]

That's not true. Have you driven both. I have. The BMW steers faster, goes faster, has a more taut suspension, the engine sounds better and feels sportier. Now perhaps on sheer numbers they may perform close (I don't really think so), but the BMW 3-series feels like it handles better and that's what sells in the showrooms.

Cadillac has to compete on it's own merits because it can't (and shouldn't) try to be a better BMW.

I've driven the 3-er compared to my '04 CTS. No I wasn't pushing the 3er hard because it wasn't mine... I have driven the CTS fairly close to it's limits. In everyday driving, of which 99% of either of these vehicles will be doing, there is little discernible difference. The CTS does feel bigger because it is. The BMW's suspension is tauter... a negative for me living in Western PA. A taut suspension isn't a benefit if the only time it will make a difference in handling is at 9/10ths. The CTS is the car I'd rather commute in and roadtrip in because it is more comfortable than the 3-er and offers 95% of the handling. The next time I'm buying a car for the Nürgburgring, I'll re-evaluate the criteria for buying a car.

Point is, most people who buy the 3er don't buy it for the handling... they buy it because it's a BMW and their co-worker told them it had great handling.

[smk4565]

I have yet to drive the 08 CTS, I have driven the old one. My step dad has a 99 BMW 540i, it absolutely blows the last gen CTS away in performance. By the numbers it is rather similar to an 08 CTS, although his BMW is probably faster (less weight and 324 lb-ft of torque). I have to agree with BMW steering, it is excellent. He is in the market for a new car, and is tired of V8 gas mileage, so I suggested the CTS. But he hasn't owned an American car in 30 years probably. The CTS is a great car if someone like him buys it, but I suspect he'll drive it, think there is too much plastic, and doesn't drive as well as his 8 year old car, and buy another BMW.

[nferr]

I've driven the 3-er compared to my '04 CTS. No I wasn't pushing the 3er hard because it wasn't mine... I have driven the CTS fairly close to it's limits. In everyday driving, of which 99% of either of these vehicles will be doing, there is little discernible difference. The CTS does feel bigger because it is. The BMW's suspension is tauter... a negative for me living in Western PA. A taut suspension isn't a benefit if the only time it will make a difference in handling is at 9/10ths. The CTS is the car I'd rather commute in and roadtrip in because it is more comfortable than the 3-er and offers 95% of the handling. The next time I'm buying a car for the Nürgburgring, I'll re-evaluate the criteria for buying a car.

Point is, most people who buy the 3er don't buy it for the handling... they buy it because it's a BMW and their co-worker told them it had great handling.

Now you changed your whole statement around. First you posted the only way one could feel the difference is on the track. Now you post you would rather have a CTS because it's more comfortable. I happen to agree with you - I have an 07 CTS with the sport package. It handles well. But I drove an 07 3-series and it was considerably sportier - on the road - not on the track. It feels sportier all around. Yes many people buy BMW's because of the image - also because of the resale value (leases are great on them because of the high residual value, and also the free maintenance which Caddy doesn't offer. AND many buy them because they are sporty cars despite what you think. I have a BMW X3 and in some ways it's sportier than my CTS despite the fact it's an SUV.

You don't see BMW's with landau roofs - I have a neighbor with an 07 CTS with a landau roof, gold trim, and wire wheels - what an atrocity. Cadillac's image is changing but other than the XLR and CTS it still says "old peoples car" to many. They have to drop the current DTS quickly if they want to get rid of the image.

You may not like it but image sells cars, BMW's image is well deserved because the cars live up to the image. Cadillac's image is still muddied. Look what happened to Oldsmobile when it tried to sell contemporary cars next to ancient Cieras marketed to the senior citizens.

[K.C.]

Now you changed your whole statement around. First you posted the only way one could feel the difference is on the track. Now you post you would rather have a CTS because it's more comfortable. I happen to agree with you - I have an 07 CTS with the sport package. It handles well. But I drove an 07 3-series and it was considerably sportier - on the road - not on the track. It feels sportier all around. Yes many people buy BMW's because of the image - also because of the resale value (leases are great on them because of the high residual value, and also the free maintenance which Caddy doesn't offer. AND many buy them because they are sporty cars despite what you think. I have a BMW X3 and in some ways it's sportier than my CTS despite the fact it's an SUV.

You don't see BMW's with landau roofs - I have a neighbor with an 07 CTS with a landau roof, gold trim, and wire wheels - what an atrocity. Cadillac's image is changing but other than the XLR and CTS it still says "old peoples car" to many. They have to drop the current DTS quickly if they want to get rid of the image.

You may not like it but image sells cars, BMW's image is well deserved because the cars live up to the image. Cadillac's image is still muddied. Look what happened to Oldsmobile when it tried to sell contemporary cars next to ancient Cieras marketed to the senior citizens.

The DTS is going away in 2010. The DTS is the only old person's car, and the reasons that people still dress up their Cadillacs is that they don't change their thinking about Cadillacs as quickly as the market does. Don't blame the car for the bad tastes of the owners or the dealers. I've seen BMW's with landau roofs and gold badging on them. It looks hideous, but its not the BMW's fault, its the owner's bad taste. Most people are not enthusiasts. I highly doubt that the DTS (which is rarely marketed) pulls down the new Cadillac image much. Oldsmobile failed for many reasons more than the one you mentioned, and Cadillac is succeeding with growing sales and a new perception from the public on the whole.

A Cadillac is not a BMW. It will never be a BMW. the only car that can be a BMW is a BMW. Not all people want a BMW. Some think they are too harsh and overly sharp. Not everyone is in the market for something so hard core. Cadillac can target BMW, and get close, but they'll never be a BMW. They will always be a Cadillac, and so comparing the two is fruitless because one will never be the other, and I am sure I speak for alot of people when I say I am glad of that. I'd never buy a BMW over a Cadillac.

[Drew Dowdell]

Now you changed your whole statement around. First you posted the only way one could feel the difference is on the track. Now you post you would rather have a CTS because it's more comfortable. I happen to agree with you - I have an 07 CTS with the sport package. It handles well. But I drove an 07 3-series and it was considerably sportier - on the road - not on the track. It feels sportier all around. Yes many people buy BMW's because of the image - also because of the resale value (leases are great on them because of the high residual value, and also the free maintenance which Caddy doesn't offer. AND many buy them because they are sporty cars despite what you think. I have a BMW X3 and in some ways it's sportier than my CTS despite the fact it's an SUV.

I did not change my statement at all. Handling and comfort are not mutually exclusive. Two cars can handle quite similarly while one is more comfortable. In fact, that was my point exactly. The difference in handling is rather small in favor of the 3er while the difference in comfort falls in the CTS's favor.

[nferr]

I did not change my statement at all. Handling and comfort are not mutually exclusive. Two cars can handle quite similarly while one is more comfortable. In fact, that was my point exactly. The difference in handling is rather small in favor of the 3er while the difference in comfort falls in the CTS's favor.

No you said the difference can only be felt at the track. I understand the point you're trying to make. I disagree that the handling difference is small at least between a CTS and a 3-series. You can feel the difference in everyday driving. The 3-series has a lot less body roll too. Even my daughters say that our BMW X3 steers much quicker than than our CTS.

But they like the CTS better as do I. Like I said in another post Cadillac has to carve it's own image. It doesn't have to be BMW. Caddy seems to be going for a splashier car that handles well (not as well as a Beemer) with more comfort.

[Drew Dowdell]

read everything please

The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track.

I even bolded it for you.

[nferr]

read everything please

The difference between the CTS and the 3-series in terms of handling is so marginal that it would only be noticed on the track.

I even bolded it for you.

And again that is not true. But stick to your beliefs if it makes you feel better.

[smk4565]

I did not change my statement at all. Handling and comfort are not mutually exclusive. Two cars can handle quite similarly while one is more comfortable. In fact, that was my point exactly. The difference in handling is rather small in favor of the 3er while the difference in comfort falls in the CTS's favor.

Depends on what you think comfort is. If comfort is a more pillow-like ride, maybe, but the BMW 3 and 5-series both have better seats than the CTS. I noticed sitting in an STS and CTS back to back, the STS's bottom portion of the seat is about 3-4 inches longer, there is much better leg support. The CTS's seats seem small and not very supportive. The CTS has 2 way lumbar also, which is unacceptable.

Weight plays a lot in handling too. Even cars that post great track statistics sometimes feel worse than they actually are and body roll more because of total weight or weight balance. The Cobalt SS supercharged posted a better slalom speed than the Corvette for example, and I am guessing the Corvette feels a lot better in a turn.