2008 MT Car of the Year Award goes to...

[Robert Hall]

You're the exact reason Buick needs to be fixed quick. There is no reason that Cadillac can't be the MB and BMW competition and Buick can be the soft Lexus and Lincoln competition. The DTS, Town Car, Lucerne, ES, and to a degree Avalon and LS460, prove there is a market for these kind of cars. I've driven a V6 Lucerne a few times and if I were in the market for a new daily driver I would serious consider it over a new CTS. Don't get me wrong, I like my CTS, but the Lucerne is a lot less "hyper".... and given where and when and how I drive, the Lucerne would be a much more comfortable whip.

GM needs to show Lexus you can't out Buick, Buick.

There is definitely a market for both, though the older style soft luxury car market is shrinking, I think, compared to the performance-oriented luxury (BMW style) market. Personally, I like both types of cars for different reasons..I love the Town Car for it's old school luxo land yacht ways, but I love BMWs (and the CTS) for their style and performance...

[Cory Wolfe]

A rock can be compared to a Cadillac.

A Millenia can not.

+1 Rock.

Bitch, please.

Good to see the CTS get an award.

[regfootball]

i am so aghast at why people are implying the CTS is soft.

the fker has an incredible handling level that most folks will never access!!!!!!

Your average gen Y blogger punk who managed to finally get a job and car loan, singing the BMW praises likely can barely drive to save their life. I bet some of those punks haven't even had their license for more than 5-6 years and their only frame of reference is some riced up civic! Most punks berating the CTS likely couldn't even drive a Hyundai accent to 10/10th without hurting bystanders much less themselves.

holy crap, people. the car is at least 90% the handling prowess of the BMW if not more than 90%. The CTSv isn't even out yet.

Who are the dumb asses making people think the CTS is a floater? JESUS CHRIST! Have you heard of FE3?

Edited November 20, 2007 by regfootball

[ponchoman49]

Kudos to the CTS. I figured it wouldn't be the Malibu because it doesn't offer really anything different compared to it's competition other than a prettier face. The CTS has that wonderful new DI V6, a much improved interior and exterior and class leading technology and ride/handling characteristics for a reasonable sum of $$$

[Sevenfeet]

No, but what this does prove is that GM has borrowed a page from BMW's PR machine - build a car that the 'enthusiasts' like and it will get all kinds of accolades - but does that still make it a Cadillac? Does it make the CTS even a good car? No. Just one that the car rags like.

Frankly, it saddens me. Don't get me wrong: I'm thrilled for GM that they have built a car for the magazines, but I am not a big fan of 0-60 times being the measure of luxury. So now Cadillac has out BMW'd BMW. Can they out-luxury Lexus now, or is that up to Buick?

The CTS is a very good looking car. More importantly, it is a 'balanced' design, IMO. There are no 'bad' angles to look at this vehicle. Why are the magazines dictating to the people what they should 'desire' in a luxury car?

That is my beef with the media: not a bias against GM in particular, but against 'pedestrian' vehicles in general. If it doesn't do 0-60 in 6 seconds or less, do a G on the skid pad, then it's crap. Bull$h!, I say.

I know that some of us might have some nostalgia for how the luxury car market used to be, but frankly, that ship sailed 30+ years ago. It just took Cadillac that much time to realize it. Gone are the days where supersized framed cars that completely isolated you from the road roamed the highways. Even luxury cars that aren't considered to be sport racers mostly still have to decent handling a curve or two.

The old days defined entry level luxury as just a trim level on an existing large vehicle. These days it's actually a different sized car which has its own trim levels. And the smaller the vehicle, the more likely its supposed to have some idea of how to do good handling with the leaders of the class.

Ironically Cadillac had a chance to hit the ground running early on in the mid-70's when they introduced the Seville. They billed it as a European experience and sized vehicle, but they had no clue in those days what a real European sedan experience really meant. If they had figured it out early and done a better job executing that mission, the dark days of the 1980's might have had a happier story instead of the offering things like the god-awful Cimmaron.

Markets change and so do buyers. If and when that happens, you can't keep selling the same stuff. That's B-school 101. BMW figured this out in the '70s and even Mercedes had to adjust their thinking. Cadillac tried to adjust but they just didn't buy into what really needed to be done and was too risk advserse in alienating some of their long time customers which are now dying off.

The important distinction in the COTY award is that Motor Trend editors said that Cadillac had delivered a competitive product without completely divorcing itself from aspects that are uniquely American. What they are saying is that Cadillac figured out that they can't out-BMW BMW. But they can deliver the best Cadillac they can build with the new parameters that buyers are looking for in a car of this segment. This is also why Audi, Mercedes and other makers keep their unique flavors and are ultimately successful at it.

Also, winning over the automotive press is important. Word of mouth advertising often starts with favorable press coverage and BMW has 30+ years of it. Cadillac's product transition from it's old ways to a more modern lineup isn't complete yet, but by 2011/2012 it'll be a lot more clear. It took a long time for Cadillac to turn into a luxury laughing stock. It's also taking a long time to undo that damage. Winning the COTY for the 208 CTS goes a long way to repairing that damage.

[A Horse With No Name]

Congrats to GM and Cadillac.

Chris

[Drew Dowdell]

i am so aghast at why people are implying the CTS is soft.

the fker has an incredible handling level that most folks will never access!!!!!!

Your average gen Y blogger punk who managed to finally get a job and car loan, singing the BMW praises likely can barely drive to save their life. I bet some of those punks haven't even had their license for more than 5-6 years and their only frame of reference is some riced up civic! Most punks berating the CTS likely couldn't even drive a Hyundai accent to 10/10th without hurting bystanders much less themselves.

holy crap, people. the car is at least 90% the handling prowess of the BMW if not more than 90%. The CTSv isn't even out yet.

Who are the dumb asses making people think the CTS is a floater? JESUS CHRIST! Have you heard of FE3?

Considering the CTS comes in very very close to the 3-series in terms of handling even with it's bigger dimensions and heft, you'd think they get the idea. The old CTS-V bested the M5's laptime on the Nürgburgring. But the Cadillac is less expensive... so it doesn't count.

[Robert Hall]

i am so aghast at why people are implying the CTS is soft.

the fker has an incredible handling level that most folks will never access!!!!!!

Your average gen Y blogger punk who managed to finally get a job and car loan, singing the BMW praises likely can barely drive to save their life. I bet some of those punks haven't even had their license for more than 5-6 years and their only frame of reference is some riced up civic! Most punks berating the CTS likely couldn't even drive a Hyundai accent to 10/10th without hurting bystanders much less themselves.

holy crap, people. the car is at least 90% the handling prowess of the BMW if not more than 90%. The CTSv isn't even out yet.

Who are the dumb asses making people think the CTS is a floater? JESUS CHRIST! Have you heard of FE3?

????

You're loosing it, dude...calm down. I think the complaint in this thread was the opposite...Carbiz was bemoaning that the CTS wasn't a soft, floaty old-style Cadillac.

I don't think anyone in this thread said or implied the CTS was too soft.

Screw Gen Y, the CTS is aimed at buyers like me...Gen Xers in their 30s that can afford $40k cars..

Edited November 20, 2007 by moltar

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

To shift gears little bit, as bias these awards could be, am I the only one who wants to see each positions that each contender finished at? like the very old COTY awards when MT was doing the COTY and ICOTY seperate? I just like to see where my favorites finished in it everytime these awards gets published for some strange reason, though I don't trust them 100%.

Once again, Congrats to GM and Cadillac. It's about time that the American premium make like Cadillac deserves an award over those boring, and stale Japanese make who always wins which I got sick and tired of. To me, Japanese makes aren't that good to win COTY everytime, it's just so biased and more people loves the Japanese so much, that these publishers tends to pick them as winners most of the times. Even on some comparison tests, they tend to pick Japanese(of the models that I think as NO COMPETITION at all) over much more sophisticated, and BETTER Europeans, which angers me sometimes and makes me go 'Oh, they probably picked Japanese anyway as the winner, as usual' before I even flip the first cover of the magazine. Face it, they may be popular, but to me, they are not that good.

[Lamar]

If the car has the same size, same power, same handling, same equipment, same or greater level of luxury interior, but is 7k less, how is that a different segment?

Old perceptions die hard. Even among enthusiasts.

[Lamar]

Oh yeah, congrats to Cadillac and GM.

Believe it or not, I finally saw one on the road last week... two, actually, in the same day. I would have kept following one of them around the Capital Beltway if I didn't have to drive to class.

I'll see if I can convince my mom to get into one. She wants a Lexus GS next, I think.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Lamar

[regfootball]

????

You're loosing it, dude...calm down. I think the complaint in this thread was the opposite...Carbiz was bemoaning that the CTS wasn't a soft, floaty old-style Cadillac.

I don't think anyone in this thread said or implied the CTS was too soft.

Screw Gen Y, the CTS is aimed at buyers like me...Gen Xers in their 30s that can afford $40k cars..

I just get upset when people imply that a luxury car has to be a track car

It shouldn't be a floater. and as long as everyone knows that the CTS has never been a floater. Even the STS has been a good drivers car for quite a while now. Even some DTS/Concours have had pretty good road manners for awhile now.

[Robert Hall]

I just get upset when people imply that a luxury car has to be a track car

It shouldn't be a floater. and as long as everyone knows that the CTS has never been a floater. Even the STS has been a good drivers car for quite a while now. Even some DTS/Concours have had pretty good road manners for awhile now.

Agreed...I've driven the 1st gen CTS and STS, and they are pretty tight..

[Shantanu]

There's been some question in the past few years about the MT:COTY being sold or at least the manufacturer's marketing plans incorporating the award playing a large role in selection.

I'll say this: The Cadillac CTS certainly didn't need this award.

It's replacing a popular car, one that helped redeem Cadillac from the Catera. It's gotten excellent reviews already, and has been selling well. There's only so many CTS cars GM can build at their plant.

[Drew Dowdell]

There's been some question in the past few years about the MT:COTY being sold or at least the manufacturer's marketing plans incorporating the award playing a large role in selection.

I'll say this: The Cadillac CTS certainly didn't need this award.

It's replacing a popular car, one that helped redeem Cadillac from the Catera. It's gotten excellent reviews already, and has been selling well. There's only so many CTS cars GM can build at their plant.

With the STS selling like it is, I think they've got the room.

[smk4565]

No. Not while we're still getting articles like the one about the Sequoia <best SUV EVAR!!11!!> which pretty much humps the thing and dismisses it's past. While also getting reviews of the GMT-900 SUVs that call them gas hogging dinosaurs... <butreallygooddinosaurs> and harping on GM for selling them at a profit.... as if Toyota would take a loss on each one.

Even with the CTS, and I've been fighting this fight here, there is the expectation that a 5-er sized car should handle like a 3-er simply because it shares a price point.... and somehow, better than 5-er but not quite 3-er handling, makes it less of a car.

I don't expect a CTS sized car to handle like or be as fast as a 3-series, but the problem is Cadillac doesn't have a small car, or a legit $50-70,000 car. So the CTS is left to do battle against 3 segments of cars. The CTS is the best middle sized, entry level luxury car, the ES350, TL, MKZ are really all that are in that group though, maybe a Volvo or the 9-5.

My frustration with Cadillac I tend to take out on the CTS, which isn't really fair to the CTS. I am just unhappy with Cadillac's car lineup. Cadillac needs a small car, and an S-class fighter, then they have what every other brand has.

And with the 528i comparisons, people could say a Chrysler 300C has 345 hp for less than money than a CTS, or an SRT-8 has 425 hp for what a CTS costs, so does that make the CTS no good? The level of materials are different, just like with the CTS and 5-series. There is a reason there is a cost difference between the 2. Not that makes one better than the other, they are just different segments.

[smk4565]

You're the exact reason Buick needs to be fixed quick. There is no reason that Cadillac can't be the MB and BMW competition and Buick can be the soft Lexus and Lincoln competition. The DTS, Town Car, Lucerne, ES, and to a degree Avalon and LS460, prove there is a market for these kind of cars. I've driven a V6 Lucerne a few times and if I were in the market for a new daily driver I would serious consider it over a new CTS. Don't get me wrong, I like my CTS, but the Lucerne is a lot less "hyper".... and given where and when and how I drive, the Lucerne would be a much more comfortable whip.

GM needs to show Lexus you can't out Buick, Buick.

No way, the Lucerne has a very average interior, fake wood all over, cheap cloth in the base model. It's huge and the 3800 is weak. I have an Aurora 4.0, the interior has a far superior layout, better materials like real walnut wood trim, and the V8 is 100 times better than a 3800 in everything but gas mileage. The Aurora handles better than the Lucerne too. I think they took a big step backward from the Aurora to the Lucerne, although I suppose the Lucerne is marginally better than the LeSabre. I wouldn't trade my 86k mile Aurora for a brand new Lucerne CXS straight up.

That being said, after 4+ years of front drive V8, I'd like rear drive and a bit smaller car next time, the Aurora is too front heavy and body rolls on tight windy roads like all front drive cars.

Buick might be able to catch up to the Avalon and ES350, if GM ever invests the money, not like they have Toyota's money sitting around and only 30 vehicles to spend it on. Cadillac needs to continue the chase of M-B, BMW, Jaguar, etc. Jaguar I think will become relevant again.

[Flybrian]

Buick might be able to catch up to the Avalon and ES350

Catch up to the Avalon? Haha...you're stupid.

You keep mentioning the 3800. The CXS has a Northstar. What in heavens are you talking about?

[smk4565]

With the STS selling like it is, I think they've got the room.

Yea, capacity will never be an issue. The old CTS sold about 60,000 around 05 or 06 when it had it's best year, the STS in 05 I think sold around 30,000 cars, maybe a little more. The STS is only on pace for around 15,000 this year I think, so even if the CTS sells 75,000, they are still about the same volume as before. They can always put the STS or DTS out of their misery early if need be.

[Robert Hall]

I don't expect a CTS sized car to handle like or be as fast as a 3-series, but the problem is Cadillac doesn't have a small car, or a legit $50-70,000 car. So the CTS is left to do battle against 3 segments of cars. The CTS is the best middle sized, entry level luxury car, the ES350, TL, MKZ are really all that are in that group though, maybe a Volvo or the 9-5.

My frustration with Cadillac I tend to take out on the CTS, which isn't really fair to the CTS. I am just unhappy with Cadillac's car lineup. Cadillac needs a small car, and an S-class fighter, then they have what every other brand has.

And with the 528i comparisons, people could say a Chrysler 300C has 345 hp for less than money than a CTS, or an SRT-8 has 425 hp for what a CTS costs, so does that make the CTS no good? The level of materials are different, just like with the CTS and 5-series. There is a reason there is a cost difference between the 2. Not that makes one better than the other, they are just different segments.

True enough... Cadillac needs to follow up with more product. They need a coupe, a 4 seat convertible, a compact sports sedan, a big league full-size luxury sedan, and a competitive SUV (the SRX has a lot of potential, but hasn't done well).

[Z-06]

True enough... Cadillac needs to follow up with more product. They need a coupe, a 4 seat convertible, a compact sports sedan, a big league full-size luxury sedan, and a competitive SUV (the SRX has a lot of potential, but hasn't done well).

They are coming!!

[smk4565]

Catch up to the Avalon? Haha...you're stupid.

You keep mentioning the 3800. The CXS has a Northstar. What in heavens are you talking about?

Oldsmoboi said he'd like a V6 Lucerne as a daily driver. That is why I picked on the 3800. I wouldn't take a V6 Lucerne or a Northstar Lucerne. The added 25 hp (compared to the Aurora) from the northstar is just canceled out by the porkier curb weight. That Northstar was in the 1993 Seville, maybe it is time to upgrade.

The Avalon is nicer than a LaCrosse and the center console area has higher grade materials than the Lucerne, it is basically a better Buick than a Buick is. I'd never buy an Avalon or any other Toyota, but at least it and the ES350 are semi modern, not riding the same platform, engine, tranny from 1987, Lexus didn't even make cars then.

[Flybrian]

Oldsmoboi said he'd like a V6 Lucerne as a daily driver. That is why I picked on the 3800. I wouldn't take a V6 Lucerne or a Northstar Lucerne. The added 25 hp (compared to the Aurora) from the northstar is just canceled out by the porkier curb weight. That Northstar was in the 1993 Seville, maybe it is time to upgrade.

The Avalon is nicer than a LaCrosse and the center console area has higher grade materials than the Lucerne, it is basically a better Buick than a Buick is. I'd never buy an Avalon or any other Toyota, but at least it and the ES350 are semi modern, not riding the same platform, engine, tranny from 1987, Lexus didn't even make cars then.

The Lucerne weighs a whole 40 pounds more than the Aurora. The center console of the Avalon is a series of flimsy, cheap doors covering...things you use constantly. Great design. If you think the LaCrosse is using the same exact chassis and running gear as it did in 1987 without any changes, you know nothing about the car. And if you think the Avalon isn't riding a mid-90s chassis in some way, shape, or form, then you know nothing about that car either. Toyota just does a better job of concealing the lineage of its automobiles than domestics do.

[smk4565]

They are coming!!

Not enough of them. I doubt they bring out an $85k base price sedan, and they are killing the SRX which drives great, for a downgrade. But I am very interested to see the lineup when they get it done. I hope they top the Jaguar XF, I think that car is pretty cool.

They need to get 35 mpg out of the CTS somehow by 2009 also, the 535d gets 35 mpg average, beats a Yaris, Fit, Aveo and Camry hybrid, and it's coming here within a year.

[Northstar]

Not enough of them. I doubt they bring out an $85k base price sedan, and they are killing the SRX which drives great, for a downgrade. But I am very interested to see the lineup when they get it done. I hope they top the Jaguar XF, I think that car is pretty cool.

They need to get 35 mpg out of the CTS somehow by 2009 also, the 535d gets 35 mpg average, beats a Yaris, Fit, Aveo and Camry hybrid, and it's coming here within a year.

Answers to your whole post:

$85k sedan: As of the sumer, a "ULS" was on for MY2011. I would guess that it's a 2012 by now, but we'll see. The SRX is a CTS wagon, for the most part. There's a CTS wagon coming.

There's also a CTS Diesel, though I don't know if we'll get it here. I wouldn't be surprised, though, and I also wouldn't be surprised if it got a two-mode hybrid.

Regarding the discussion on plant capacity: LGR was originally built to build 250k cars/year, so it has plenty. Plus, it underwent a 100k sq ft addition to prepare for the new CTS.

[NOS2006]

Hey smk, the ES is a piece of &#036;h&#33;. Just throwin' it out there.

[smk4565]

Hey smk, the ES is a piece of &#036;h&#33;. Just throwin' it out there.

I am aware, quick list of cars I'd never buy... Any Buick, Mercury, Hyundia, Kia, Toyota, Lexus ES and IS, current DTS, Town Car, any SUV or station wagon or pick up or van. Unless I got into the hauling business or something that needed a truck, but never as a personal vehicle.

[Delta Force79]

Way to go Cadillac, and especially GM for finally getting it 'right'. Reading the praise for this car coming from the editors of Motor Trend was something I never thought I'd see again. I was a subscriber to Motor Trend throught the '90's back when C Van Tune was there, and I thought they had a good balance between their bias for certain brands and those which were doing their best to compete. But within the last 7 or 8 years I've stopped reading Motor Trend entirely. This COY write up reminds me of days of old. I remember the 1998 COY for the 'vette, and how proud I was at the time. I also remember the 1999 Chrysler 300M winning the following year. It's seems like it's been a lifetime since American cars have ruled the world, and it's a damned good feeling to have it be a GM that takes the reigns again.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Delta Force79

[longtooth]

The MT staff are just suckers for those fender vents. They're cropping up everywhere. Those vents lend the impression of something desparately trying to get out. Buy Pep Boys stock now.

[turbo200]

Answers to your whole post:

$85k sedan: As of the sumer, a "ULS" was on for MY2011. I would guess that it's a 2012 by now, but we'll see. The SRX is a CTS wagon, for the most part. There's a CTS wagon coming.

There's also a CTS Diesel, though I don't know if we'll get it here. I wouldn't be surprised, though, and I also wouldn't be surprised if it got a two-mode hybrid.

Regarding the discussion on plant capacity: LGR was originally built to build 250k cars/year, so it has plenty. Plus, it underwent a 100k sq ft addition to prepare for the new CTS.

NS, I know you're point is to show GM has solutions for all these product gaps. However, the CTS wagon really is not a good replacement for a crossover SUV, the likes of which are competing against best sellers like the X5, Cayenne, ML-Class, FX45, etc etc. Cadillac needs a luxury sport crossover, and to me the BRX is looking more and more weak-kneed and unsubstantial-looking, in another words not a great design to field against the above class of SUVs, more of a competitor for the light SUV set.

[K.C.]

The Lucerne weighs a whole 40 pounds more than the Aurora. The center console of the Avalon is a series of flimsy, cheap doors covering...things you use constantly. Great design. If you think the LaCrosse is using the same exact chassis and running gear as it did in 1987 without any changes, you know nothing about the car. And if you think the Avalon isn't riding a mid-90s chassis in some way, shape, or form, then you know nothing about that car either. Toyota just does a better job of concealing the lineage of its automobiles than domestics do.

The better job of concealing the lineage is by putting passengers to sleep during the drive.

[Drew Dowdell]

look behind any camry from about 1992 on and you'll see that same low hanging exhaust pipe that looks like it's going to clip any speed bump it goes over.

[Sevenfeet]

I don't expect a CTS sized car to handle like or be as fast as a 3-series, but the problem is Cadillac doesn't have a small car, or a legit $50-70,000 car. So the CTS is left to do battle against 3 segments of cars. The CTS is the best middle sized, entry level luxury car, the ES350, TL, MKZ are really all that are in that group though, maybe a Volvo or the 9-5.

My frustration with Cadillac I tend to take out on the CTS, which isn't really fair to the CTS. I am just unhappy with Cadillac's car lineup. Cadillac needs a small car, and an S-class fighter, then they have what every other brand has.

And with the 528i comparisons, people could say a Chrysler 300C has 345 hp for less than money than a CTS, or an SRT-8 has 425 hp for what a CTS costs, so does that make the CTS no good? The level of materials are different, just like with the CTS and 5-series. There is a reason there is a cost difference between the 2. Not that makes one better than the other, they are just different segments.

One thing for sure is that it takes a very long time to completely remake a product line. Keep in mind that when the original CTS first bowed in the winter of 1992, it was a shot in the dark to try to see if remaking Cadillac would even work (as opposed to shutting it down). Even after that success, there had to be serious talk of just how to remake the product line while keeping the old line customers coming in.

GM's biggest long term problem has been execution. Its really easy to say what kind of products you want to build and GM has dangled some really cool looking ideas in front of us (Evoq, Cien, Sixteen). But the execution of those ideas would often end up half-baked or not at all. In the case of the Evoq, the really radical looking concept vehicle with super sharp and delicate features in the same body ended up getting a more conservative nose that was too small for the design. The retractable roof actually gave worst-class trunk room when stowed compared to other competitors. The interior at first got good marks since it was indeed the best thing Caddy had done up to that point. But it was compromised by things like cramped seating, silly comarketing schemes reminiscent of Caddy of 20 years ago (who wants to look at "Bvlgari everyday?), a HVAC cluster from the CTS parts bin, too small tires, etc.

The STS didn't know who it was trying to please and ending up being an extremely bland offering in a hypercompetitive market (Chinese market STS not withstanding). Only the STS-V tried to really distinguish itself.

We've seen the execution problem get better over time, but I think many of us were still wondering if Caddy could deliver a complete vehicle. The 2007 Escalade was pretty close and a harbinger or what was to come with the '08 CTS. Now with the CTS the execution issues seem to be few and far between compared to previous efforts. So far it's things like Bluetooth or roof handles...things of lesser significance or things they can be modified later. Given this effort, I have hope for the future of Cadillac products. The BTS must be perfect...no excuses at all to say nothing of the flagship sedan.

[Drew Dowdell]

The BTS must be perfect...no excuses at all to say nothing of the flagship sedan.

Is there any car anywhere that is perfect, no excuses? If not, why must Cadillac meet that criteria?

I'm ready with my list for anyone who says "3-series", "5-series", or "S-class".

[enzl]

Is there any car anywhere that is perfect, no excuses? If not, why must Cadillac meet that criteria?

I'm ready with my list for anyone who says "3-series", "5-series", or "S-class".

More correctly, the BTS needs to be much closer to perfection than the sorry BLS 9-3rebadge it is today.

Europeans are fairly savvy---and probably ready to accept Caddy as a strong niche presence in their markets, so long as the product is good & different. The BLS isn't really good, nor is is different in a demonstrable way.

Perfection isn't the goal, desireability is and a great (not perfect) Caddy B-car (styling, features and the availability of competitve diesels) would do just fine internationally.

[Northstar]

Is there any car anywhere that is perfect, no excuses? If not, why must Cadillac meet that criteria?

I'm ready with my list for anyone who says "3-series", "5-series", or "S-class".

Ferrarii 599 GTB Fiorano. :AH-HA_wink:

As for the BTS or whatever it is called, it does need to be as close to perfect as possible. It's going directly against the 3-Series, and it won't have the advantages the CTS currently has over both the 3-Series and 5-Series (more size for the same price, or the same size for less) unless it is priced below $30k, and that will make it quite a bit harder for it to be as successful, I think. It needs to be as good as or better than the 3-Series, otherwise there will be no reason for someone considering both to buy it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ferrarii 599 GTB Fiorano. :AH-HA_wink:

As for the BTS or whatever it is called, it does need to be as close to perfect as possible. It's going directly against the 3-Series, and it won't have the advantages the CTS currently has over both the 3-Series and 5-Series (more size for the same price, or the same size for less) unless it is priced below $30k, and that will make it quite a bit harder for it to be as successful, I think. It needs to be as good as or better than the 3-Series, otherwise there will be no reason for someone considering both to buy it.

Reliability.

Are we still going to determine which is better by the 0-60 and skidpad? Because if the BTS comes out with an interior like the CTS and performs at least 8/10ths as well as the 3-series, it's not going to be that difficult of a decision.

[turbo200]

Ferrarii 599 GTB Fiorano. :AH-HA_wink:

As for the BTS or whatever it is called, it does need to be as close to perfect as possible. It's going directly against the 3-Series, and it won't have the advantages the CTS currently has over both the 3-Series and 5-Series (more size for the same price, or the same size for less) unless it is priced below $30k, and that will make it quite a bit harder for it to be as successful, I think. It needs to be as good as or better than the 3-Series, otherwise there will be no reason for someone considering both to buy it.

the B-series needs to offer everything the CTS does, offer another fresh take on the Cadillac styling theme that will again make people notice [even moreso than CTS does], and most importantly weigh much less and PERFORM. Offer a ride/handling balance that hasn't been hit by another automaker, while still managing to have a great road feel. think 3-series as a target for this. This will be one of the hardest targets to define since you really don't know where BMW is going next gen, except possibly the obvious which is more handling prowess with an improved balance of road feel and ride. Can a sedan get much better performing than the current 335i?

[Northstar]

Reliability.

Are we still going to determine which is better by the 0-60 and skidpad? Because if the BTS comes out with an interior like the CTS and performs at least 8/10ths as well as the 3-series, it's not going to be that difficult of a decision.

Who's gonna complain about having to take their car in so they can get a Ferrari loaner? I'd want my car to be broke all the time if that were the case. I think it's too early to tell how reliable that particular model is right now anyways, but let's continue the Cadillac discussion...

The CTS already performs as 8/10ths as well as the 3-Series. If the target of the BTS is the 3-Series, then yes, it should be able to perform as well as the 3-Series. Certainly performance is not the only thing that makes a good car, but it is a key if you're targeting the 3-Series. A new 3-Series will probably be out by the time the BTS comes, so the 3-Series might have a better interior by then, as well. The CTS can perform with a 5-Series, there's no reason the 3-Series sized Cadillac can't perform with the 3-Series.

If the BTS and 3-Series are priced the same, and the next 3-Series has an interior that's much improved and at least almost as good as the BTS's, then what reason does one have to buy the BTS if it doesn't perform as well? The CTS can get by with not performing as well because it's bigger and offers a much better value, but the BTS won't have that advantage, so it has to beat the 3er at its own game.

[Hudson]

To shift gears little bit, as bias these awards could be, am I the only one who wants to see each positions that each contender finished at? like the very old COTY awards when MT was doing the COTY and ICOTY seperate? I just like to see where my favorites finished in it everytime these awards gets published for some strange reason, though I don't trust them 100%.

I agree. You could possibly convince yourself of anyone's win by looking at the raw numbers and individual places. But when it's "and the winner is," I don't buy it. I wasn't convinced that the 2002 Thunderbird was the best of that year and I'm not convinced of this one either.

[Northstar]

I agree. You could possibly convince yourself of anyone's win by looking at the raw numbers and individual places. But when it's "and the winner is," I don't buy it. I wasn't convinced that the 2002 Thunderbird was the best of that year and I'm not convinced of this one either.

You can look and see what the finalists were:

A5/S5: Good car all around it appears, but it seems rather expensive and is very low volume. In short, a good car, but not very significant because it's not going to sell in very big numbers. Perhaps 1k/month.

Malibu: They generally like it, but think some of the plastics could be better and the steering isn't the greatest. Significant, yes, but not perfect for its intended role.

Volvo V70/XC70: It's a wagon, do you honestly see a wagon getting COTY? Perhaps its sedan counterpart, but not a wagon. Performance and design are greatly lacking (looks the same as a 20 year old Volvo, very slow for a $45k vehicle).

Accord: Didn't like the design or interior. Malibu was a better performer and they liked it's design and interior better. If the Malibu doesn't win, I don't see how the Accord can.

C-Class: Poor interior plastics in a luxury make? That puts it out of contention.

xB: Terrible design, average at most other things.

Caravan: bad plastics, not even the best minivan according to C&D.

I think the only cars you can make a case for over the CTS are the Malibu and A5/S5. The A5/S5 is too low volume (READ: Less significant) and the Malibu was deemed to have more flaws than the CTS.

[smk4565]

Reliability.

Are we still going to determine which is better by the 0-60 and skidpad? Because if the BTS comes out with an interior like the CTS and performs at least 8/10ths as well as the 3-series, it's not going to be that difficult of a decision.

I know Cadillacs are reliable, but look at the competition also. BMWs run for a long time, 200,000+ miles is easy on a BMW, and they are usually top 10 in JD Power reliability. Although that study is 3-4 years, that isn't that great an indicator. Lexus is #1 reliability, and most of those mid 90s Lexuses are still running with a ton of miles on them, although I think a BMW or Cadillac would last longer. American cars have a general reputation of not lasting long, so I don't think the BTS is going to win 3-series buyers over because they think it is more reliable. BTS better have a better interior than the 3-series, more features, more motor and more gas mileage and equal handling, or at least very close.

A supercharged M3 just set the Nurburgring track record the other day, Cadillac has their work cut out for them.

[smk4565]

New 3-series I think is 2012 or 2013 model year. New 5-series is 2010 model year, and they have way more power coming. If the CTS is meant to go against it, it will need some big time engine upgrades.

[Northstar]

I know Cadillacs are reliable, but look at the competition also. BMWs run for a long time, 200,000+ miles is easy on a BMW, and they are usually top 10 in JD Power reliability. Although that study is 3-4 years, that isn't that great an indicator. Lexus is #1 reliability, and most of those mid 90s Lexuses are still running with a ton of miles on them, although I think a BMW or Cadillac would last longer. American cars have a general reputation of not lasting long, so I don't think the BTS is going to win 3-series buyers over because they think it is more reliable. BTS better have a better interior than the 3-series, more features, more motor and more gas mileage and equal handling, or at least very close.

A supercharged M3 just set the Nurburgring track record the other day, Cadillac has their work cut out for them.

He was talking about the Ferrari not being reliable, but regardless...

The BTS isn't going to win over any buyers based on anything other than beating the 3-Series at its own game. As you said, reliability isn't going to win over buyers, because obviously the 3er owners are either happy with the 3er's reliability or don't care if it's not reliable, because they keep buying them in droves. The BTS will have to offer more for less like the CTS does, but do so in a different way. Rather than offering more size for the same price, the BTS is going to have to offer the same amount of features and same performance for a cheaper price. It should perhaps be priced like the 1-Series (which isn't exactly cheap).

As for the supercharged M3... I had not heard this? It out-lapped even the exotics?

New 3-series I think is 2012 or 2013 model year. New 5-series is 2010 model year, and they have way more power coming. If the CTS is meant to go against it, it will need some big time engine upgrades.

I think enough engines will be available for the CTS. The 3.6 will be competitive with whatever the base engine is for the 5er, I think. I don't see them making the TT I6 standard. The DI 3.6 will probably need a boost as the TT I6 will probably get a boost. The UV8 should do fine against whatever the BMW V8 is, and the V-Series will have plenty of options. A turbo or supercharged UV8 (I would bet turbo - GM seems to like DI turbo engines) should provide plenty of power. I don't see the need for anything else besides a diesel (which is coming) and a hybrid (which I see no reason why it won't come).

[smk4565]

The 5-series is keeping a 3.0 liter I6 with 250 hp I think for base, the twin turbo I6 returns, that engine makes over 280 rear wheel horsepower in he 335i, so it isn't a 300 hp, they'll probably just rate it higher or to what it actually is next time. The 4.8 liter 360 hp V8 dies, a 4.4 liter direct injection, twin turbo V8 takes it's place. Rumored 410 hp and lb-ft of torque, and perhaps burn less gas than their current V8. If they get over 100 hp per liter like they do from the I6, I'd think more like 440 hp in the new V8. M5 is rumored to get a 5.5 liter twin turbo V10. The 535 diesel is coming here as well, it gets 35 mpg average, beats a Camry hybrid or Yaris. They are likely doing a hybrid 5-series on top of that.

The M3 CSL was modified with a supercharger, spoiler, and they cut the weight down, so it isn't a stock car, but someone could buy and M3 and make it. It did the Nurburgring in 7 minutes 22 seconds, 5 seconds faster than the Pagani Zonda, 20 seconds faster than the 505 hp Z06. Here is the link... http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/20/new-rin...7-22-8-seconds/

Cadillac doesn't need anything like that, my only point with it is the 3-series has a good chassis, the BTS has to be really good to compete. I think they should price the base BTS above the 3-series, maybe make the loaded one less though. Low price usually means not as good, BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less, the BTS is going to have to be a better looking, better interior car. And if GM's goal is low base price, they'll cheap out the interior or something to keep cost down. They made the Malibu $1000 less than the Accord, and all the reviews are the Accord has the best interior, if GM spend that extra $1000 and priced the car the same, the Malibu would have the best interior.

Edited November 22, 2007 by smk4565

[Z-06]

The 5-series is keeping a 3.0 liter I6 with 250 hp I think for base, the twin turbo I6 returns, that engine makes over 280 rear wheel horsepower in he 335i, so it isn't a 300 hp, they'll probably just rate it higher or to what it actually is next time. The 4.8 liter 360 hp V8 dies, a 4.4 liter direct injection, twin turbo V8 takes it's place. Rumored 410 hp and lb-ft of torque, and perhaps burn less gas than their current V8. If they get over 100 hp per liter like they do from the I6, I'd think more like 440 hp in the new V8. M5 is rumored to get a 5.5 liter twin turbo V10. The 535 diesel is coming here as well, it gets 35 mpg average, beats a Camry hybrid or Yaris. They are likely doing a hybrid 5-series on top of that.

The M3 CSL was modified with a supercharger, spoiler, and they cut the weight down, so it isn't a stock car, but someone could buy and M3 and make it. It did the Nurburgring in 7 minutes 22 seconds, 5 seconds faster than the Pagani Zonda, 20 seconds faster than the 505 hp Z06. Here is the link... http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/20/new-rin...7-22-8-seconds/

Cadillac doesn't need anything like that, my only point with it is the 3-series has a good chassis, the BTS has to be really good to compete. I think they should price the base BTS above the 3-series, maybe make the loaded one less though. Low price usually means not as good, BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less, the BTS is going to have to be a better looking, better interior car. And if GM's goal is low base price, they'll cheap out the interior or something to keep cost down. They made the Malibu $1000 less than the Accord, and all the reviews are the Accord has the best interior, if GM spend that extra $1000 and priced the car the same, the Malibu would have the best interior.

Considering that Cadillac has done a pretty good job making the 3800-4000 lb CTS dance, you think they will not do that for the BTS? They know that the BTS will be directly inline with the 3-series, and they will get it right. Alpha platform looks promising given its conceptual phase like its bigger brother Zeta. Even Euro car rags are putting the Zeta Holdens on par with the 5er.

M3 CSL did lose weight, but it gained price by about 95% compared to the bread and butter M3. The super corvette is going to be in the same boat, but with added power and lesser price jump compared to the Z06. It is not that GM does not have the desire to lose weight in its cars, it simply cannot lose the weight because of the economics.

The way CTS has evolved, I do not see Cadillac bringing ugly cheap ass interiors to ANY car bearing the wreath badge. Talk to Jim Taylor and he will tell you how important quality and interior are to Cadillac.

Be patient and have some faith in Cadillac man, and reduce some of the German cool aid. Not that it is bad to look and benchmark cars coming from them in the future, but to say that Cadillac will not be all that without having any information about the car is not right.

[CARBIZ]

I know Cadillacs are reliable, but look at the competition also. BMWs run for a long time, 200,000+ miles is easy on a BMW, and they are usually top 10 in JD Power reliability. Although that study is 3-4 years, that isn't that great an indicator. Lexus is #1 reliability, and most of those mid 90s Lexuses are still running with a ton of miles on them, although I think a BMW or Cadillac would last longer. American cars have a general reputation of not lasting long, so I don't think the BTS is going to win 3-series buyers over because they think it is more reliable. BTS better have a better interior than the 3-series, more features, more motor and more gas mileage and equal handling, or at least very close.

A supercharged M3 just set the Nurburgring track record the other day, Cadillac has their work cut out for them.

Nobody is rougher on their cars than Canadians. Our winters beat the crap out of the lifespan of vehicles and Japanese cars in particular suffer because their bodies are made from Japanese beer cans.

DesRosiers Marketing (sort of the JD Powers of Canada) initiated a study in late 2000 where they did a break down of pre 1987 vehicles on the road (the year that Acura started up) and post 1987 vehicles still registered and on the road. They compared the initial sales of each make for each year against how many were still registered on the road. In both cases, the domestics fared better. I remember that both Lincoln and Cadillac were at the top, as a percentage of vehicles still being 'driven.' This was published in the Toronto Star. I no longer have the article, but I kept it for years. Jim Kenzie (who is a well-respected writer in these parts) and Dennis DesRosiers were puzzled as to why this was the case. At the time, I speculated that perhaps more Asian vehicles were stolen and 'parted out' because of their higher parts costs, but I doubt that enough vehicles would have been stolen per year with respect to the domestics to skew the figures in any significant amount.

I know this study is already 7 years old, but the reason I am revisiting it now is that if the domestics 'outlasted' the Asian brands back in the '90s (when Detroit was supposed to be dishing out nothing but CRAP), then how much further would the spread be by now?

I remember at the time Jim Kenzie speculating out loud (and I nearly popped a vein when the Toyota Star actually PRINTED his remarks) that perhaps the reason for the Asian brands' apparent higher resale was an illusion. He went further by adding that perhaps the reason for Toyota's (he singled them out) 'sterling reputation' is (was?) because the vehicles visit the dealer more often. The obvious assumption that he was making (in his vast experience) was that import buyers are programmed to return to the dealer; whereas the domestic buyers weren't.

I'm just throwing that out there, is all.

It seems to me that if a North American wide registry check was done by some institution, coupled with a cross reference with all 50 states and 10 provinces to vehicles still registered, it would put to bed the notion of which vehicles are 'better.' It would be a big undertaking, but I suspect we may be surprised at the results. A model by model comparison may be misleading, but if there are proportionately more Chevys on the road than Toyotas, it would raise a few eyebrows, don't you think?

[dado]

I think that cadillac CTS is an exellent car. Yes it will probably have some stuff that can be execute better , but which car doesn't.

Also i don't think that CTS alone will be enough to make Cadillac "Standard off the world". GM must decide what they want cadillac to represent. For example bmw are sportier but also smaller(and uglier ) inside and out than other competitiors.Alfa romeo have exellent design and handles like bmw 3 even if it is FWD, but doesn't have m3 competitor in their lineup (GTA isn't M competitior)..at least for now.

I think that cadillac should bild middle class car (that is class where audi a4, mercedes c, alfa romeo 159 are in Europe), Bls,but also have true m, amg or rs4 competitor in their class. Also if their going against E klass, 5, A6 jaguar xf, cts should have at least two v8 engine(one v series but also one below V series),preferably DOHC, with DI,vvt,for European buyers,. ...diesel is a must..and not just one diesel engine. Or maybe hybrid.

Next would be a bmw 7, audi a8 competitor also with V8 engines option(DOHC) ..v12 isn't necessary at least not in first generation.

And maybe when all this is done cadillac could have something like black edition in mercedes or cls m3 in bmw in limited and small number.

Edited November 22, 2007 by dado

[balthazar]

>>"...BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less"<<

If they are brand "faithful", they are not going to switch no matter what the competition offers. '600 hp, 50 MPG, 1.0 Gs but no roundel? No thanks!' I am positive that a scary amount of BMW & M-B buyers are customers primarily for the badge, not for 0.3 sec less time to 100 MPH. Take a look at BMW drivers and you'll see the full spectrum, not just the Aryian, exposed-knuckle driving-gloved fashion model BMW would like you to think are their sole consumers.

Cadillac DOES NOT need to steal the other brand faithfuls, only those who are NOT blind loyalists and shop the full segment, which is a FAR FAR larger segment than merely the blind loyalists.

[Z-06]

>>"...BMW/M-B faithful won't buy a BTS because it is $500-1000 less"<<

Cadillac DOES NOT need to steal the other brand faithfuls, only those who are NOT blind loyalists and shop the full segment, which is a FAR FAR larger segment than merely the blind loyalists.

Is that what other car manufacturers think of us here?