Earth-shattering Chrysler info

[mustang84]

For Chrysler's sake, I hope someone wises up...this just has "bad idea" spelled all over it. The only part that doesn't sound to bad is Jeep selling the company's SUVs only...I could see that. But getting rid of Dodge cars...are they frickin' nuts?

Chrysler LLC dealers have been briefed on a plan by Chrysler to cut as many as a thousand U.S. franchised dealers in tandem with new, earth-shaking branding changes, according to a just-published article in The Wall Street Journal. The branding changes would entail limiting all passenger car sales to the Chrysler brand only, with Dodge dealers having only light-duty trucks and commercial vehicles to sell and Jeep dealers having only Jeeps and SUVs to sell.

The dealers said that Chrysler has not decided to definitely go through with the plan at this point, but will make a decision on whether to proceed with the changes by the end of the year.

http://www.autosavant.net/2007/11/chrysler...nd-changes.html

[the_yellow_dart]

Getting rid of SUVs other than Jeep? Sure.

Getting rid of Dodge cars? Bad idea.

Also, where would this leave the minivans?

[DetroitNut90]

Stupidity written all over it. The Chrysler brand would never be able to move upmarket if it had to be saddled with selling the budget models too.

Please reconsider this plan, for the sake of your company.

[ocnblu]

Good Gravy, are they lunatics over there? Getting rid of Dodge cars is a very stupid idea. Dodge and Chrysler cars can, and DO, have their own distinct identities.

[Intrepidation]

Just when there seemed like hope for the company news like this comes out. This has got to be the stupidest move in the history of auto manufacturing. I hope like hell it's not true.

[rambaran]

a couple years ago, chrysler tried limiting dodge to just trucks here in canada. that's why we had chrysler intrepid r/t's running around the place. that didn't last two long though.

[Bimmer325]

Wasn't Dodge supposed to become all wagons/hatchbacks a few years ago?

[Oracle of Delphi]

[Intrepidation]

It's even more retarded when you consider that 1.) The truck and SUV market is shrinking, so limiting Dodge to trucks is basically a death sentence. 2.) Chrysler has a long history of selling cars, and the cars they make that are very good, like the Charger, sell very well. You can't blame poor performance on the fact that they sell cars, you blame it on the fact that the cars weren't good enough, you make world class cars, and they will sell.

[Jazzhead]

If they're dropping a thousand dealers then I assume that means that the remaining ones would sell both Chrysler cars and Dodge trucks under the same roof. Sort of like Pontiac/Buick GMC. Jeep could continue to stand alone in larger markets or could be sold in a one-stop Mopar store in others.

It could make sense. It certainly isn't necessary to have both Dodge and Chrysler minivans. for example. If it were me and I could be sold on the economics of the consolidation idea, I think it would still be good to keep one or maybe two Dodge cars, maybe the Challenger and the Viper.

The economics still escape me though. Isn't it easier to build at Brampton's capacity by making both Chargers and 300s?

Edited November 17, 2007 by Jazzhead

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, that's just the definition of stupidity.

[VenSeattle]

:rotflmao: OHHH MANNNNN!

Passsss the popcorn for this!

Talk about major brand restructuring.... Hmmm...

JEEP = HUMMER

Dodge = GMC

Chrysler = Pontiac/Buick combined as a single premium entity... (interesting concept )

[K.C.]

What happens to the Challenger?

[Lamar]

What happens to the Challenger?

Chrysler Challenger...

Chrysler Viper...

Chrysler Caliber...

Nope, those sound as good as Chrysler Voyager...

[regfootball]

keep in mind this is the sort of thing you do if you are simply trying to prepare a business that is easier to sell. the notion of paring models and such and cutting dealers is in vogue with the analysts and press (the media, not JIM press neccessarily) so yeah i could believe this.

but to me it falls apart because dodge really needs to have passenger cars. it really wasn't long ago that the intrepid and stratus were big mainstream sellers. of course, they made the intrepid into a rwd charger and killed that market base and then turned the stratus into avenger which killed that group too. the 300/LHS/Concorde had wide appeal and then they went bling and gangsta with the polarizing 300 and now they have issues because of that.

this move will really drag the chrysler brand. chrysler will become a commodity car.

this whole things reeks of doing what they can to gain enough favor from the media and industry pundits, to prop up the worth of the company and sell it. this really does not sound good. at all.

Edited November 17, 2007 by regfootball

[AxelTheRed]

Jeep getting all the SUVs isn't an entirely bad idea...but killing off Dodge cars?

That's it. Chrysler's new management is an official failure. That is THE stupidest idea I've ever heard come out of any automaker. Its worse than Ford's plan to massmarket the Mustang...it tops that tenfold, and that's saying something.

No Charger, Viper or Challenger? All the small economy cars imported from China going to Chrysler? What a pack of f*cking morons.

Edited November 17, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[VenSeattle]

I thought about this after reading Reg's comment... If the Chrysler Group were to be sold off in pieces, this would be perfect. There would be very little (if any) platform sharing and each brand could go to the highest bidder... think about it:

JEEP sold off by itself... GM would want it hands down and sell them along side HUMMER.

Dodge sold off by itself... who needs a successful and established light truck/commercial vehicle brand? Just about any Asian manufacturer.

Chrysler sold off by itself... who needs a turn-key premium car brand in the US market? Hyundai? Chinese? India?

[cire]

I agree with a lot of you on this topic. This doesn't look like a restructuring plan to revive the company in the market. It looks like preparatory measures for a sell-off. If it isn't a sell-off measure, then it is the most clear-cut case of stupidity in the current auto market.

Like many of you, I agree that Jeep should be the only brand to offer traditional SUV products. That segment has shrunk to niche-size proportions and Jeep has traditionally been a niche player in the market (as well as being well-known for this type of product).

I envisioned Dodge becoming Chrysler LLC's version of Chevrolet; it would be a sporty, affordable, mainstream, mass market brand. It would sell the widest range of vehicles and become the volume player in the brand hierarchy.

The Chrysler brand would morph into a true near luxury niche brand. It's main competitors would be second tier near luxury brands such as Lincoln, Buick, and Acura.

Oh well, so much for my hopes of a bright future for Chrysler LLC.

[ocnblu]

Yeah, I think we all remember the fears laid out about Cerebrus' (sp?) plans for Chrysler Corp before the purchase... that an investment group is not interested in nurturing a company like this, but breaking it up and selling it off for profit. Disgusting. Edited November 17, 2007 by ocnblu

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah, I think we all remember the fears laid out about Cerebrus' (sp?) plans for Chrysler Corp before the purchase... that an investment group is not interested in nurturing a company like this, but breaking it up and selling it off for profit. Disgusting.

Cerberus

[enzl]

Anyone surprised by the possibility of shrinking then selling off Chrysler hasn't been reading the Cerberus playbook.

This is what private equity does, in almost any endeavor...you really didn't think they were going to pony-up the $10+Billion needed to redesign and re-engineer the entire line-up, did you?

The cash intensive, low margin, risky nature of the auto industry is the opposite of what these guys are about...Chrysler's future as a full-line company is not bright-their best hope is Nissan coming in as a partner or buyer, unfortunately.

[Ravenfreak13]

it could just be hype, you know.

Stir up some controversy.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM needs to buy Jeep and merge it with Hummer!

Edited November 17, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Criminally foolish.

Only the brain-damaged could come up with a "plan" like this.

[CMG]

it could just be hype, you know.

Stir up some controversy.

I sense it's already in the history books around here....

LOL

I guess I'll believe it when I see it. Sounds like National Enquirer got the scoop on this. I've seen so many rumors on the internet they all are becoming a blurrrr.......

:AH-HA_wink:

[vonVeezelsnider]

Good Gravy, are they lunatics over there? Getting rid of Dodge cars is a very stupid idea. Dodge and Chrysler cars can, and DO, have their own distinct identities.

Jesus H. tap dancin' Christ, this does not sound like a good idea. Let Chrysler be prestigious, Dodge be sporty, a resurrected Plymouth be cheap and Jeep be tough, but don't let 90+ years of Dodge's history as a car manufacturer come to an end. Sure, they need some work, but don't leave them for dead.

Just when there seemed like hope for the company news like this comes out. This has got to be the stupidest move in the history of auto manufacturing. I hope like hell it's not true.

Seconded. I mean WTF?? The Avenger, Charger and Challenger are good cars... Why the hell would they do this.

[MyerShift]

Damn. If there is any truth in this, Chrysler is dead, and I am devoted to rooting for GM.

I highly doubt anything so stupid would happen, but you never know. When Iacocca left and Lutz left, pretty much everything that made Chrysler great left.

[Intrepidation]

So far I haven't seen this reported on any of the big sites...also I've never even heard of the site this "news" is coming from before the thread was posted.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

So far I haven't seen this reported on any of the big sites...also I've never even heard of the site this "news" is coming from before the thread was posted.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1195248000...p_us_whats_news<They are the one which started it. Edited November 17, 2007 by Toyota.vs.GM

[Intrepidation]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1195248000...p_us_whats_news<They are the one which started it.

Hmm, well that's big enough then...strange that this wouldn't show up on TCC or edmunds or something like that..since that's pretty big news. Once again it is the stupidest move that couple possibly be made. If they are going to go through with it, they are either going to 1.) break the company apart and sell it or 2.) Complete idiots who have no idea how to run a car company.

[haypops]

it could just be hype, you know.

Stir up some controversy.

They do need to cut poorer dealers and they do need to cut overlap (according to them). Maybe this is just version one of the restructuring plan. Why would they hire Press just to sell of parts of corporation?

[ZL-1]

it's called looking at alternatives, so i don't see where the drama is...

[buyacargetacheck]

It's a great idea and one I've floated for years. Chrysler's real market share is a lot lower because its supply far outstrips its demand. They've screwed up one too many times, and Cerberus isn't going to inject an infinite amount of capital to "make" the Chrysler brand a luxury car. To really get some traction at this point they should find a way to make this dealer consolidation happen quickly a la a Manhattan Project while phasing out either Dodge or Chrysler entirely (but keeping the money-making lines and the potentially money-making lines). Maybe even take this a step further and nix either Chrysler or Dodge. Dodge probably makes the most sense to keep because it has more high volume, high profit vehicles (Caravan and Ram). Meanwhile, I like the idea I recently saw where Chrysler would make a MINI Cooper type car (high profit, high style, high quality, fuel-efficient premium small car) and not compete in the low-end Yaris/Aveo and Corolla/Cobalt markets. There's no law that says a manufacturer has to play in every market - just ask BMW (who does this well) and Ford (who's just about been KO'ed with its Jaguar "international luxury brand" fetish).

BTW, no matter what is decided the "Dodge Challenger" will stay around for a few years after which buyers will tire of it like all the other over-produced and hyped retro designs (PT Cruiser, New Beetle, SSR, Prowler, etc). By 2012, the folks who have the stomach to pay $5/gallon to fill up a '70s-inspired V-8 powered 2 door coupe will buy a Mustang.

Edited November 19, 2007 by buyacargetacheck

[A Horse With No Name]

It's even more retarded when you consider that 1.) The truck and SUV market is shrinking, so limiting Dodge to trucks is basically a death sentence. 2.) Chrysler has a long history of selling cars, and the cars they make that are very good, like the Charger, sell very well. You can't blame poor performance on the fact that they sell cars, you blame it on the fact that the cars weren't good enough, you make world class cars, and they will sell.

Chrysler needs one world class small car IMHO. Like I've said before, bring back the Neon.

Be interesting to see what Chrysler does.

Chris

[bring_BUICK_back]

GM needs to buy Jeep and merge it with Hummer!

so they can fu** it up?

GM can't even handle the divisions they have now

[LosAngeles]

Wasn't Dodge supposed to become all wagons/hatchbacks a few years ago?

Just like Pontiac was supposed to quit making notchbacks also.

I doubt they would go there.

[cire]

Well, information about this proposed plan appeared on Autoblog and Leftlane News today, so I guess it's legit. It appears as though this proposal is one of several under consideration, so there is a chance this one might not become reality.

As much as I think that Chrysler LLC's three brands need to be redefined and repositioned, I still think this could be accomplished in ways other than limiting the brands to one "type" of vehicle. Overlap only occurs when plans and products are not executed properly. Take the Avenger/Sebring siblings for example. Chrysler did give each car its own distinct exterior/interior appearance, but did little else to differentiate the platform mates. The Sebring's styling, interior materials, technology, and powertrains really don't elevate the car above the mainstream midsize sedan category. It is positioned, equipped, and priced to compete with the Avenger (and very little else unfortunately), instead of competing with upscale, near luxury offerings such as the Buick LaCrosse, Lincoln MKZ, Acura TL, and Lexus ES. This doesn't mean that the Chrysler and Dodge brands shouldn't both offer midsize sedans, but they need to offer midsize sedans that appeal to different customers (Dodge=sporty, affordable, mainstream, volume; Chrysler=sleek, upscale, luxury, exclusive). My personal preference would be for Chrysler to offer a rear wheel drive midsize sedan spun off a shortened version of the next generation 300's LY platform. This would give the Chrysler division a distinct, brand appropriate product and leave Dodge with the mainstream, front wheel drive midsize offering.

Even if the Sebring and Avenger shared a platform, they could still be differentiated enough to prevent overlap. Regardless of my personal feelings about Toyota, I do have to admit that they do an excellent job of differentiating the Lexus ES from its Toyota Camry counterpart. They do this with distinct exterior/interior styling, powertrain offerings (the ES is only available with the V6), and exclusive features/equipment. The two cars attract different types of clientele based on the cars' execution and the price that execution commands in the market.

[Sixty8panther]

Is there something in the water over there?

[AxelTheRed]

Is there something in the water over there?

In Michigan? You bet!

[the_yellow_dart]

As previously stated, it was already tried in Canada, and I thought they realized it was a bad idea.

Chrysler Neon anyone??

[Intrepidation]

It's up on edmunds now as well.

Once again, this is an extremely stupid move. With all of the product cutting they are doing now, Chrysler as a company is in as good of a position as it will ever be to define/redefine its brands. With all but the 300, T&C, and Sebring left after the current cuts, Chrysler has little baggage to take with it should it move upmarket. It is positioned to introduce a range of new products that will take the brand back into the entry luxury/luxury segment where it belongs. The results of moving it upmarket with the right products would be obvious: A return to prestigious brand image, a real brand identity, an end to product overlap and badge engineering, and most importantly for Cerberus, bigger profits.

Dodge can be properly aligned as the sporty mainstream brand, with no need to have its products to be watered down to give Chrysler a light edge, since Chrysler would compete further upmarket.

Jeep should be the niche seller of BOF SUVs, the Wrangler and other products that belong with the brand.

By doing this you have the ability to create 3 distinct brands, that compete in 3 different areas of the market, and none of them will be held back by the other. Why is that so difficult of a concept?

[regfootball]

dodge still needs to have cars. I can see not giving dodge or chrysler any true SUV's. But the Journey will be dodge (don't stop believin baby) and the pacifica is getting canned although i think chrysler should have one crossover. but at a minimum, dodge still needs to have cars.

guys, they are doing this to carve up the brands.

maybe someday soon, chrysler's brands will be like 5% market here in the US, but the gist of what they are doing is to establish the brands for better positions in other countries and make their killing there.

we are prob headed for a future of GM increasing US share a bit, Ford hoping to recover, and those 2 being the only major US players in the NA market.

[Intrepidation]

That's a real possibility...we'll see what happens...

[enzl]

It's up on edmunds now as well.

Once again, this is an extremely stupid move. With all of the product cutting they are doing now, Chrysler as a company is in as good of a position as it will ever be to define/redefine its brands. With all but the 300, T&C, and Sebring left after the current cuts, Chrysler has little baggage to take with it should it move upmarket. It is positioned to introduce a range of new products that will take the brand back into the entry luxury/luxury segment where it belongs. The results of moving it upmarket with the right products would be obvious: A return to prestigious brand image, a real brand identity, an end to product overlap and badge engineering, and most importantly for Cerberus, bigger profits.

Dodge can be properly aligned as the sporty mainstream brand, with no need to have its products to be watered down to give Chrysler a light edge, since Chrysler would compete further upmarket.

Jeep should be the niche seller of BOF SUVs, the Wrangler and other products that belong with the brand.

By doing this you have the ability to create 3 distinct brands, that compete in 3 different areas of the market, and none of them will be held back by the other. Why is that so difficult of a concept?

They simply do not have the money to develop all of the product needed to maintain the current line-up. If Mercedes, with fairly deep pockets and existing RWD & FWD tech already on the shelf, deemed Chrysler to expensive to fix, how can one expect a Private Equity firm to pony up the expense.

Keep in mind that MB sold to avoid the costs of 3 things: 1. Workers 2. Dealers & 3. Product Development

It would take $billions to revamp the fetid product at your local CJD dealership---and, whats worse, you would need to develop disparate platforms for the variety--BOF trucks for Dodge & Jeep, Unibody RWD to replace the LX's and FWD that was flexible enough to underpin Hornets & Minivans---it ain't going to happen. Cerberus will pin down the dealers just like they did the UAW---"you don't like us, start speaking Mandarin, buddy."---the dealers will capitulate & sell out quicker than you can say Lead Paint Legos.

Just wait until next year. This is merely the tip of the private equity nghtmare that will either place Chrysler with the Chinese or, if lucky, the French (Peugeot or Nissan/Renault).

Edited November 20, 2007 by enzl

[ZL-1]

With all of the product cutting they are doing now, Chrysler as a company is in as good of a position as it will ever be to define/redefine its brands.

Which is exactly why every one of the realignment possibilities have to be considered, including the more 'radical' ones :AH-HA_wink:

[Intrepidation]

They simply do not have the money to develop all of the product needed to maintain the current line-up. If Mercedes, with fairly deep pockets and existing RWD & FWD tech already on the shelf, deemed Chrysler to expensive to fix, how can one expect a Private Equity firm to pony up the expense.

Keep in mind that MB sold to avoid the costs of 3 things: 1. Workers 2. Dealers & 3. Product Development

It would take $billions to revamp the fetid product at your local CJD dealership---and, whats worse, you would need to develop disparate platforms for the variety--BOF trucks for Dodge & Jeep, Unibody RWD to replace the LX's and FWD that was flexible enough to underpin Hornets & Minivans---it ain't going to happen. Cerberus will pin down the dealers just like they did the UAW---"you don't like us, start speaking Mandarin, buddy."---the dealers will capitulate & sell out quicker than you can say Lead Paint Legos.

Just wait until next year. This is merely the tip of the private equity nghtmare that will either place Chrysler with the Chinese or, if lucky, the French (Peugeot or Nissan/Renault).

Daimler didn't pump the money into Chrysler Group because it didn't want to. It didn't want Chrysler to be able to compete at the level of Mercedes, and it always shortchanged the new vehicles that were launched, with the exceptions of the Pacifica and LX cars. The German Ego is what screwed up Chrysler. Chrysler Group was always forced to play 2nd fiddle. And when Daimler saw that cheaping out didn't result in earth-shatter sales (holy &#036;h&#33; what a surprise!!11), they dumped it.

Yes money would need to be investing in new platforms and product to make the company successful again, but what the hell does one think needs to be done in order to be competitive and profitable? You have to spend money to earn money. Create no-excuse, world class products that don't cheap out, make them on good, flexible architectures, and the profits will come. It worked for the Japanese, it's starting to work at GM, this is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Also, if the new LY platform is designed to be flexible, it can be used to underpin a variety of new vehicles including a midsize RWD car for Chrysler (and even Dodge, so long as they are very different in design, performance, and so on), and create 1-2 highly flexible FWD platforms for the front drivers, including cars, CUVs, and minivans (sort of like the Caliber platform now, but better), and have 1-2 flexible BOF architectures for the rest.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Dodgefan

[haypops]

It is interesting how different this proposal looks if you look at it from two different points of view. If you start with the vehicle lineup we are used to, then this proposal does indeed look silly. If, however, you start with the priority that all three brands will be sold at a single dealership, then this plan is not so foolish. I am not saying its the best, just not as disastrous as many think.

[enzl]

Daimler didn't pump the money into Chrysler Group because it didn't want to. It didn't want Chrysler to be able to compete at the level of Mercedes, and it always shortchanged the new vehicles that were launched, with the exceptions of the Pacifica and LX cars. The German Ego is what screwed up Chrysler. Chrysler Group was always forced to play 2nd fiddle. And when Daimler saw that cheaping out didn't result in earth-shatter sales (holy &#036;h&#33; what a surprise!!11), they dumped it.

Yes money would need to be investing in new platforms and product to make the company successful again, but what the hell does one think needs to be done in order to be competitive and profitable? You have to spend money to earn money. Create no-excuse, world class products that don't cheap out, make them on good, flexible architectures, and the profits will come. It worked for the Japanese, it's starting to work at GM, this is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Also, if the new LY platform is designed to be flexible, it can be used to underpin a variety of new vehicles including a midsize RWD car for Chrysler (and even Dodge, so long as they are very different in design, performance, and so on), and create 1-2 highly flexible FWD platforms for the front drivers, including cars, CUVs, and minivans (sort of like the Caliber platform now, but better), and have 1-2 flexible BOF architectures for the rest.

Daimler stared into the abyss...and passed. They were horrible caretakers of these brands, no doubt...but you underestimate and misunderstand the Cerberus model if you believe that the Three-Headed Dog from Hades is going to put $10-15 Billion into new, world class platforms....first, there's little expertise internally to do all of the work, second, Cerberus just ponied up the $billions to pay-off the Union, and third, and most importantly---they don't have to. Your wish list versus their pocketbooks=their call.

Your proposal for a modest line-up is unbelievably expensive, somewhat naive and will never happen. You heard it from me, first.

Check out what Cerberus and other Private Equity firms have done in other arenas. Or, just look at Delphi for an example of what is left when a company allowed to sink into the mire. Unfortunately, your best hope is a White Knight, after the Cerberus knife has already been applied to the company. That's what they do, period.

[Drew Dowdell]

Chrysler is now Terry Schivo. Still blinking and twitching but otherwise gone.

[enzl]

Chrysler is now Terry Schivo. Still blinking and twitching but otherwise gone.

I wouldn't go that far....perhaps they're more like a transplant patient on a waiting list for an organ.

There's no recovery from the current situation, just the hope of a transplant from the right donor, before its too late---Cerberus has plenty of profits to write off their Chrysler 'experiment' against. And they're not afraid to cut their losses, as they have no shareholders to answer to, nor any board of directors, nor a real regulatory agency--plus they'll have political cover from their 'friends' in Washington as well---the Head of Cerberus is a Huge republican donor and Snow is the former Treasury Secretary---nobody can touch these guys and all the PR work getting Chrysler sold was just a dog and pony show.