So how much crap...

[BuddyP]

Thanks on the compliments... but I gotta admit, the photo hides a lot of blemishes lol, after all, it is 22 years old

[NOS2006]

Geeze Camino, I'm not around for a little while and all of a sudden you go looking into a Challenger? *shakes head* Come on man!

[Camino LS6]

Geeze Camino, I'm not around for a little while and all of a sudden you go looking into a Challenger? *shakes head* Come on man!

Don't worry too much NOS, I'm just becoming impatient with the pace of Zeta.

[ZL-1]

You know if that goes into production it means big trouble. It means the Koreans are actually learning how to design and produce some fine looking cars.

What's sad is they made a better-looking G6 coupe than Pontiac...

[Drew Dowdell]

What's sad is they made a better-looking G6 coupe than Pontiac...

It's a Nissan Z ass and a Celica face.

[Intrepidation]

What's sad is they made a better-looking G6 coupe than Pontiac...

The G6 coupe wished it looked like that.

[Northstar]

What is so great about this Hyundai coupe? The front looks like a blend of other sporty Asian cars, and the side greenhouse is seriously f*cked up. I'll take a Camaro any day, or keep my GTO for that matter.

[frogger]

I'm just glad Hyundai is entering the segment. Looking forward to seeing their sedan variant. Especially if they both keep the weight down.

[NOS2006]

Don't worry too much NOS, I'm just becoming impatient with the pace of Zeta.

*Whew* Don't get impatient, get even! Buy a Prius! haha Just kidding.

[ocnblu]

I salute Hyundai for recognizing a trend (the need for affordable RWD) and acting on it. I think that new coupe (whatever it will be called) is very handsome, with classic RWD proportions (long door-to-front-wheel relationship), and the turbo 4 and V6 engine options sound good. I think this will sell well, as kids who are into the drifting scene won't have to buy worn out old Datsun 240SXs.

This is the Formula (get it? :AH-HA_wink: ) Pontiac should mix together for their Alpha coupe... imagine an Alpha Tempest with Turbo DI Ecotec power and 3.6L DI as the top performance offering. That would go a long way toward making Pontiac truly desirable again with the young and the young at heart, who might feel a V8 is overkill these days.

[XP715]

Buy a cheap piece of crap to drive every day and go buy or build the El Camino of your dreams. Why would you drop all that money on a new Challenger that will only decrease in value when the space in your garage (and your heart) would be far better filled by a '70 SS El Camino that will only increase in value?

[SuperSport623]

i agree with XP!! 70 elky is

[knightfan26917]

the pace of Zeta.

Hmm...can't quite put my finger on it, but that just sounds like some sort of slogan.... he he.

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.lego.HO.model.MCs.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I see our time has gotten stale" ... Eve 6 ... 'Inside Out'

[Oracle of Delphi]

The danger of me actually buying a Challenger isn't too great as 2009 would be the earliest that I'll be buying anything new. But I would like to know that the Zeta(s) I want are actually coming.

Tick Tock! :AH-HA_wink:

[BatmanGTO]

It's a Nissan Z ass and a Celica face.

Its too big of an ass to be a 350's maybe the G35 since its a little bigger...

[BatmanGTO]

and Camino does this mean i have to give my GTO away to you so you keep GM products in your garage only? yeash the things i have to resort to....

[Camino LS6]

Buy a cheap piece of crap to drive every day and go buy or build the El Camino of your dreams. Why would you drop all that money on a new Challenger that will only decrease in value when the space in your garage (and your heart) would be far better filled by a '70 SS El Camino that will only increase in value?

You make a very good point.

[Camino LS6]

and Camino does this mean i have to give my GTO away to you so you keep GM products in your garage only? yeash the things i have to resort to....

Hey!

Fringe benefits!

If you give me your GTO , I promise not to buy a Challenger.

[Camino LS6]

Tick Tock! :AH-HA_wink:

You're starting to tick-tock me off.

[ocnblu]

Whoa, I just saw something that sort of blew my mind. In this thread above, I sang the praises of the newest RWD Hyundai coupe, mention drifting and Datsun 240SXs. My post appeared last night. Just now, I read a new (first time I read it, didn't see it before now and check the site at least once daily) article about that Hyundai at Autoweek.com... that mentions drifting and 240SXs! Seems an awful unlikely coincidence, or maybe I'm dreaming...

article

Edited November 18, 2007 by ocnblu

[Oracle of Delphi]

You're starting to tick-tock me off.

Now why would anything I say TICK, TOCK you off?

[K.C.]

Whoa, I just saw something that sort of blew my mind. In this thread above, I sang the praises of the newest RWD Hyundai coupe, mention drifting and Datsun 240SXs. My post appeared last night. Just now, I read a new (first time I read it, didn't see it before now and check the site at least once daily) article about that Hyundai at Autoweek.com... that mentions drifting and 240SXs! Seems an awful unlikely coincidence, or maybe I'm dreaming...

article

I don't think its a coincidence. I think that you know the industry well enough to make comments like that and be somewhat accurate. When I first saw it, I thought this was the new gen version of the Nissan 240SX. I heard rumors of Nissan coming out with a new Gen 240SX type vehicle, but I don't know how accurate those are. GM could target with an Alpha based coupe with a four cylinder and a Di V-6.

[Intrepidation]

Now why would anything I say TICK, TOCK you off?

Probably something to do with the fact that your beloved Opel makes nothing that appeals to him and only Holden and it's Zeta platform do.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My beloved Opel? I work for Chevrolet, globally of course.

[Camino LS6]

My beloved Opel? I work for Chevrolet, globally of course.

Oh, so it's your fault I can't get a new El Camino!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Oh, so it's your fault I can't get a new El Camino!

You know as well as I do, I can't stop Zeta (at least not yet), but I can slow it's progress down, and throw a roadblock up here and there. But the decision of no El Camino was a group decision.

[Robert Hall]

My beloved Opel? I work for Chevrolet, globally of course.

Ahh..so you are going to push for more crappy Daewoos sold globally as Chevrolets... how exciting.

[Robert Hall]

I don't think its a coincidence. I think that you know the industry well enough to make comments like that and be somewhat accurate. When I first saw it, I thought this was the new gen version of the Nissan 240SX. I heard rumors of Nissan coming out with a new Gen 240SX type vehicle, but I don't know how accurate those are. GM could target with an Alpha based coupe with a four cylinder and a Di V-6.

A compact 4cyl and V6 rwd coupe named Formula (not G4) would be great for the Pontiac brand...and one for Chevy called Monza.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ahh..so you are going to push for more crappy Daewoos sold globally as Chevrolets... how exciting.

You do know those crappy Daewoos as you call them are part and parcel of Holden? Holden runs Daewoo for GM, and here I thought Holden could do no wrong by you!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb48...11/ai_n17958647

[Robert Hall]

You do know those crappy Daewoos as you call them are part and parcel of Holden? Holden runs Daewoo for GM, and here I thought Holden could do no wrong by you!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb48...11/ai_n17958647

I only like the good stuff from Holden...the RWD models...I couldn't care less about the FWD sh*t...

[Oracle of Delphi]

I only like the good stuff from Holden...the RWD models...I couldn't care less about the FWD sh*t...

Holden RWD models? They only have one platform which is RWD, that is Zeta (regular and stretched), their models as you call them are the same model with either more or less content. What more could you expect anyway, Holden has just one assembly plant to it's name. Much like Saturn had just the Springhill plant, and we all know what happened to it.

[Robert Hall]

Holden RWD models? They only have one platform which is RWD, that is Zeta (regular and stretched), their models as you call them are the same model with either more or less content. What more could you expect anyway, Holden has just one assembly plant to it's name. Much like Saturn had just the Springhill plant, and we all know what happened to it.

Whatever...several model names (Commodore, Caprice, Statesman, etc), one platform.

Edited November 18, 2007 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

You know as well as I do, I can't stop Zeta (at least not yet), but I can slow it's progress down, and throw a roadblock up here and there. But the decision of no El Camino was a group decision.

Figures.

There's nothing like a commitee to overthink a decision and come-up with the wrong answer.

[Camino LS6]

Holden RWD models? They only have one platform which is RWD, that is Zeta (regular and stretched), their models as you call them are the same model with either more or less content. What more could you expect anyway, Holden has just one assembly plant to it's name. Much like Saturn had just the Springhill plant, and we all know what happened to it.

One platform with a huge variety of variants (exisiting and possible) in every major market globally- such is the genius of Holden.

And, let's not forget Alpha and the great promise it has to take RWD into the future.

GMNA and GM Europe?

*crickets chirping*

Edit: Oh yeah, let's not forget that cars designed in Oz will soon be built in NA and China.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GMNA and GM Europe?

*crickets chirping*

You keep saying that, and I again repeat "Chevrolet globally". How does this work for you? Change GM Holden to Chevrolet Australia, or Chevrolet Asia Pacific or even Chevrolet Worldwide, the same with Opel, Vauxhall and GMDAT. After all Chevrolet will be/is GM's global brand everywhere but in North America, the worldwide subsidiaries should reflect that change in global thinking as well.

Cadillac will still be marketed as the worldwide luxury brand. In Europe Corvette is sold as a separate brand, that needs to be rolled back into Chevrolet. China is still a quandary, but let's see if Buick even survives. If it does, thank the Chinese.

North America is a special case, but if GM keeps losing market share here, I think you know what will happen, even if you don't want to admit it.

[Camino LS6]

So let me get this straight, you are fine with Zeta and Alpha as long as the name of the brand is changed to Chevrolet from Holden?

I just want cars I will like - right now that means Holden.

The global branding is of little concern to me, I'm more interested in the product.

The branding issue is a wholly different discussion.

[Camino LS6]

...and, I might add, an interesting one.

In some markets, I see the value of all of GM being Chevrolet or Caddy.

In others- not so much.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So let me get this straight, you are fine with Zeta and Alpha as long as the name of the brand is changed to Chevrolet from Holden?

I just want cars I will like - right now that means Holden.

The global branding is of little concern to me, I'm more interested in the product.

The branding issue is a wholly different discussion.

Not really, I'm just reiterating the party line.

However if I were CEO of GM, I would close Holden down, after all it's just one assembly plant, engine facility, Lang Lang test facility and Holden headquarters staff. I then would move RWD design and production back to North America where it belongs, and at this point in time is cheaper to produce.

[Camino LS6]

Not really, I'm just reiterating the party line.

However if I were CEO of GM, I would close Holden down, after all it's just one assembly plant, engine facility, Lang Lang test facility and Holden headquarters staff. I then would move RWD design and production back to North America where it belongs, and at this point in time is cheaper to produce.

When you think about it, minus the drama, that is already happening to a point.

- GMNA has invaded Holden already

- Oshawa is gearing-up for Zeta

- Holden's role is increasingly one of R&D for all of GM rather than a stand-alone subsidiary

As for closing them down, why bother? The brand is beloved by Australians and the exported cars already wear other badges. The facilities have just been upgraded at significant expense, and staff from around the world are working there. That part of your position makes less sense to me, especially when you consider that Holden has already been effectively taken over. I'd leave the name in place where it has equity while making the resources available to all of GM.

In other words, what's the difference?

- The brand has value in its home market

- The cars are engineered for multiple global markets and brands already

- The designs are more easily exported than the cars themselves

What you outline sounds like GM shooting itself in the foot unnecessarily if well-known local branding is dropped for the sake of the vanity of making Chevrolet the "only" global brand.

Put the function in place ,sure that makes sense. But why get caught-up in the vanity?

[Drew Dowdell]

Not really, I'm just reiterating the party line.

However if I were CEO of GM, I would close Holden down, after all it's just one assembly plant, engine facility, Lang Lang test facility and Holden headquarters staff. I then would move RWD design and production back to North America where it belongs, and at this point in time is cheaper to produce.

uh, isn't it cheaper to build cars on the same continent they are to be consumed on?

[Drew Dowdell]

And, let's not forget Alpha and the great promise it has to take RWD into the future.

GMNA and GM Europe?

*crickets chirping*

GM Europe - wasn't epsilon mostly Saab's doing?

GMNA - Sigma, Kappa

[Camino LS6]

GM Europe - wasn't epsilon mostly Saab's doing?

GMNA - Sigma, Kappa

Epsilon= FWD/AWD and a different topic

Sigma = on it's way out and limited to Caddy

Kappa = Limited production and flexibility

[Drew Dowdell]

Epsilon= FWD/AWD and a different topic

Sigma = on it's way out and limited to Caddy

Kappa = Limited production and flexibility

yet all global

[Camino LS6]

yet all global

Which furthers my point. GM being global makes complete sense, ignoring the value of local brands - not so much.

I don't see much difference between having Kappa sold as Pontiac, Saturn, Daewoo, and Opel and having Zeta sold as Holden, Daewoo, Chevrolet, Vauxhall,Pontiac, and Buick. Except that Holden is better at it and more experienced. Applying Holden's model to all of GM is really what we are talking about here when you think about it.

[Camino LS6]

My frustration is knowing that GM can, and does, build what I want - yet I can't buy it. The strength and diversity of their global product portfolio should enable GM to quickly serve even small demand anywhere with a minumum of investment and time. If they leverage their global capabilities properly, we should all have better choices worldwide.

[Oracle of Delphi]

When you think about it, minus the drama, that is already happening to a point.

- GMNA has invaded Holden already

- Oshawa is gearing-up for Zeta

- Holden's role is increasingly one of R&D for all of GM rather than a stand-alone subsidiary

As for closing them down, why bother? The brand is beloved by Australians and the exported cars already wear other badges. The facilities have just been upgraded at significant expense, and staff from around the world are working there. That part of your position makes less sense to me, especially when you consider that Holden has already been effectively taken over. I'd leave the name in place where it has equity while making the resources available to all of GM.

In other words, what's the difference?

- The brand has value in its home market

- The cars are engineered for multiple global markets and brands already

- The designs are more easily exported than the cars themselves

What you outline sounds like GM shooting itself in the foot unnecessarily if well-known local branding is dropped for the sake of the vanity of making Chevrolet the "only" global brand.

Put the function in place ,sure that makes sense. But why get caught-up in the vanity?

Closing down a subsidiary that sells what, 30K if that, in its home market makes perfect sense to me. Remember GM is supporting their R&D, Engineering and Production for a subsidiary that produces something like 1500 vehicles per week at 60 - 70 vehicles per hour if that with overtime.

Saturn sold way more cars than that and GM assimilated their (R&D, Engineering and Production). Where is Saturn now? Can you point me to their headquarters? I do believe you will find Saturn is just a name in some GM office building in Troy, Michigan. So GM can and I think eventually will do the same to Holden as it did to Saturn, economics will force them to. I hope I am there to see it personally, that would be a dream come true for me, even better than when I watched Saturn being assimilated.

In reality there are no divisions or subsidiaries, there is just GM, what most people think are divisions or subsidiaries is just smoke and mirrors and a marketing team. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" Dorothy! There is no Great and Powerful Wizard in OZ (Pun Intended), there's just GM in Detroit and it can globally brand cars there and export the designs to the world also.

[Robert Hall]

In reality there are no divisions or subsidiaries, there is just GM, what most people think are divisions or subsidiaries is just smoke and mirrors and a marketing team. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" Dorothy! There is no Great and Powerful Wizard in OZ (Pun Intended), there's just GM in Detroit and it can globally brand cars there and export the designs to the world also.

Old news...it's been that way for a long time, hasn't it?..what some refer to as 'divisions' are more accurately 'brands'...

[Camino LS6]

Closing down a subsidiary that sells what, 30K if that, in its home market makes perfect sense to me. Remember GM is supporting their R&D, Engineering and Production for a subsidiary that produces something like 1500 vehicles per week at 60 - 70 vehicles per hour if that with overtime.

Saturn sold way more cars than that and GM assimilated their (R&D, Engineering and Production). Where is Saturn now? Can you point me to their headquarters? I do believe you will find Saturn is just a name in some GM office building in Troy, Michigan. So GM can and I think eventually will do the same to Holden as it did to Saturn, economics will force them to. I hope I am there to see it personally, that would be a dream come true for me, even better than when I watched Saturn being assimilated.

In reality there are no divisions or subsidiaries, there is just GM, what most people think are divisions or subsidiaries is just smoke and mirrors and a marketing team. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" Dorothy! There is no Great and Powerful Wizard in OZ (Pun Intended), there's just GM in Detroit and it can globally brand cars there and export the designs to the world also.

So essentially, we are saying the same thing (minus your personal vendetta against Holden).

What is Holden's is GM's, of course that's true.

Dumping the brand and abandoning the facilities makes no sense however.

[Drew Dowdell]

Which furthers my point. GM being global makes complete sense, ignoring the value of local brands - not so much.

I don't see much difference between having Kappa sold as Pontiac, Saturn, Daewoo, and Opel and having Zeta sold as Holden, Daewoo, Chevrolet, Vauxhall,Pontiac, and Buick. Except that Holden is better at it and more experienced. Applying Holden's model to all of GM is really what we are talking about here when you think about it.

I agree with you here. Most platforms should be globally compatible and built on each continent. The extremes of full sized trucks and micro cars would have to vary by market.

[Camino LS6]

The way I see it, Holden has given GM a huge gift at the cost of their own independence. This little sliver of the GM universe:

- took a lackluster Opel and turned it into a V8 supercar

- merged European precision with American power

- reminded GM how to do an interior

- reminded GM how to maximize a single platform

- taught GM how to export

And PCS wants to thank them with extinction.