October 2007 Sales: General Motors

[Drew Dowdell]

The CTS isn't acceptable because it runs 0-60 in 5.8 instead of 5.5. I'd like to see him sit in a car that runs a 5.5 and then a car that runs a 5.8 and be able to tell the difference.

It's easy to tell the faster/better car. It has the blue and white propeller thingy on the hood.

[enzl]

Fine, don't believe me about the GTO. Maybe you'll believe guionM, but I doubt it:

Selling 30k G8s is pretty good for Pontiac if you actually think for a second and do 2 minutes of research. The GP was on pace for less than 20k retail sales for the year through 6 months. For it's replacement to do 30k retail sales would be a 50% increase. Since when is a 50% increase nothing to write home about?

My opinion of smk is shared by many others, and if you would read all of his posts you would see how out of touch he is. The CTS isn't acceptable because it runs 0-60 in 5.8 instead of 5.5. I'd like to see him sit in a car that runs a 5.5 and then a car that runs a 5.8 and be able to tell the difference.

I never said the GTO was a bad car, I said it wasn't a true GTO, either in appearance (retro or not, it was bland) or as a marketing tool (it provided no Halo), so it was a failure...and I happen to like the car, personally.

It's not that I don't believe you or anyone else...I read (voraciously) all of the major car rags, journals, industry stuff and I just happen to have an office across from a P-B-GMC dealer, where I speak to salesmen and managers regularly---you cannot find, other than here, anyone who claims the GTO was a success, so whn I express doubts as to the claims being made, I do not just rely on my own opinion---there were stilll GTO's on the lot (new) as of 4 months ago...I saw them with my own eyes.Take a look at the current/past NADA values for these vehicles (less than $27k retail for an 06 in Nov. 06!)---are they desireable? Yes, but only to a small subsection of the enthusiast community--everyone else has walked away from these cars with a shrug.

Taking your numbers for the GP at face value, the math doesn't work...it assumes that GM makes no money from the fleet sales of the GP (which everyone here constantly uses as a defense of fleeting by GM). You and I both know that's probably not true. Additiionally, with fleeting, Pontiac is in the dumps...removing those sales entirely means that Pontiac will lose another 20% or so of its sales volume, if your retail numbers are correct.

BTW-I wasn't defending SMK, just his right to having a differeing opinion...why not get him to reveal a source of his numbers, rather than threatening to ban him?

[Drew Dowdell]

I never said the GTO was a bad car, I said it wasn't a true GTO, either in appearance (retro or not, it was bland)

A true GTO is your grandmother's tempest with a big engine and nicer upholstery.

[enzl]

LOL. Good thing I'm not Lewis Black.

It's pretty hypocritical to sit there and bitch at an admin (One who has spent MANY hours working hard on this site) about allowing people to speak freely, then turn around and attack me for doing just that. And why? Simply because you are not open minded enough to seperate a bigot from a historian. (Especially given the fact that I went out of my way to make my stance clear on the issue in the lounge)

This is a perfect example of the conformist mindset that is destroying EVERYTHING in our country. This " be free but think as I think" -or- "live your own life, but only if it's as I live mine." A more appropriate description here would be "judge, but only as I judge" as it's somehow in style to criticize my southern pride and discriminate against my choice to fly the flag for the sake of NOT discriminating.

Has it ever occured to the 'club' here that seems to hate me why I do and say some of the things I do?

In my mind, I'm always 'right'

Facts are facts and will be reported as such. (From C&G at least) We're not saying GM is gravy, but they do seem to be making progress. And it gets pretty old when certain people constantly try to throw a line of into the positive news just for the sake of pointing out 'why GM still sucks' (I thought we got rid of that punk evok?)

Just take a look at the Malibu threads for god's sake. The car is getting excellent reviews (As I said it would, remember, "begrudging but good") and all people can talk about is the lack of some f*cking $2000 Nav system. Give me a break!

FWIW: Northstar might've stepped over the line a bit, but take it from me (I used to be an admin and one of the reasons I wanted out was because of my strong opinions/bias) it sucks to come here and see the company you basically volunteer for day in and day out be 'trashed' by a few people who probably shouldn't even be posting on a GM BIASED board anyway. So cut the guy some slack, ehh?

In all seriousness, it's not a symbol you can wash clean...it's not that you can't use it, it's that you should be smart enough not to use it at all.

Co-opting a symbol that offends some might seem uber-intellectual or post-modern or whatever type of legitimate face you want to put on it, but it doesn't make it less offensive to those that may view it and not taken the time to read what I'm sure is a long-winded and small minded series of excuses in the Lounge.

Farbeit from me to curtail your freedom of speech, but that still doesn't change the fact that many people look at the 'stars and bars' as a reminder of some awful history in our great country---perhaps out of respect for those that are offended, you should consider a different avatar.

Or you could continue to look like an ignorant f*ck. Your call.

[Northstar]

Taking your numbers for the GP at face value, the math doesn't work...it assumes that GM makes no money from the fleet sales of the GP (which everyone here constantly uses as a defense of fleeting by GM). You and I both know that's probably not true. Additiionally, with fleeting, Pontiac is in the dumps...removing those sales entirely means that Pontiac will lose another 20% or so of its sales volume, if your retail numbers are correct.

BTW-I wasn't defending SMK, just his right to having a differeing opinion...why not get him to reveal a source of his numbers, rather than threatening to ban him?

I'm not sure I understand your statement about the GP fleet sales?

Anyways, here is where the numbers are from: http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2007/cars_web.pdf

9376 GPs were sold to retail customers for the first half of the 2007 MY. That's actually under 19k for the year, not 20k. Also, as you stated above, GM plans to keep the GP around when the G8 is here. I would assume that's for fleet sales only and to keep the plant running.

[enzl]

I'm not sure I understand your statement about the GP fleet sales?

Anyways, here is where the numbers are from: http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2007/cars_web.pdf

9376 GPs were sold to retail customers for the first half of the 2007 MY. That's actually under 19k for the year, not 20k. Also, as you stated above, GM plans to keep the GP around when the G8 is here. I would assume that's for fleet sales only and to keep the plant running.

I was operating under the assumption that the fleeting would continue to decline (as GM has promised) while the G8 was here...therefore, net-net, you'd be losing sales volume (in other words, if they fleeted 10k less GP's, there goes the volume gained via the 30k G8 sales)....rereading my own post, I wasn't clear on that. Sorry.

[Northstar]

I was operating under the assumption that the fleeting would continue to decline (as GM has promised) while the G8 was here...therefore, net-net, you'd be losing sales volume (in other words, if they fleeted 10k less GP's, there goes the volume gained via the 30k G8 sales)....rereading my own post, I wasn't clear on that. Sorry.

Ah, I see what you mean. The net gain might be negative, but I don't have a problem with that. The GP sales to fleets are unneeded, anyways. The only way to really grow sales is to grow retail sales. Fleet sales aren't going to grow as a whole.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In all seriousness, it's not a symbol you can wash clean...it's not that you can't use it, it's that you should be smart enough not to use it at all.

Do you honestly have your head that far up your own ass?

I should be "smart enough" to deny my own heritage for the sake of making some yuppie happy? I don't think so. I don't live or die by the politically correct and frankly I couldn't care less about the people I offend.

Co-opting a symbol that offends some might seem uber-intellectual or post-modern

Post modern?!?! LOL

or whatever type of legitimate face you want to put on it, but it doesn't make it less offensive to those that may view it

See comment #1. If you're not intelligent enough to seperate terrorism from history, then you shouldn't even have the right to be a part of the debate.

and not taken the time to read what I'm sure is a long-winded and small minded series of excuses in the Lounge.

So the root of this is the fact that you do not like me? You're willing to discriminate against me because you do not like what I stand for or who I am? And you call me the bigot?

Farbeit from me to curtail your freedom of speech, but that still doesn't change the fact that many people look at the 'stars and bars' as a reminder of some awful history in our great country

What's so awful about it? Many men died for that flag fighting for what they believed in, should we automatically kick dirt on their graves just because the flag represents different things to different people? Do you kick dirt on the grave of Billy Durant because the GM logo has come to symbolize poor quality? Do you kick dirt on the grave of Washington because our country's flag represents what most of the world now deems excessive and evil?

---perhaps out of respect for those that are offended, you should consider a different avatar.

I thought about taking it down just the other day (Because it's been there for a while and I was ready for a change) But now I think I'll leave it up for a long time. :AH-HA_wink:

Or you could continue to look like an ignorant f*ck. Your call.

1) I think most people are smart enough to know the truth 2) It's not like I give a damn what people on an automotive blog think of me in the first place.

I live my life as I see fit. I need no one, I need the approval of no one and as a matter of fact, it really gets my rocks off to be counter to everything people like you cherish so much. Oddly enough (GASP!) I'm secure enough not to really care about judgments passed on me by people who do nothing but 'follow the leader' especially when those people are faceless, nameless text on a website built for hobby.

Edited November 7, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

Well folks, I'm just going to lock this thread now as it has travelled so far off topic that its usefulness is at an end.