October 2007 Sales: General Motors

[enzl]

DTS was up nearly 18 percent.

Can you say fleet? GM clearly tweaked sales of the DTS, and Cobalt, based on the numbers I've seen.

The overall DTS trend is down...more than 10% this year--and more than that if you factor historical sales---the DTS is a black car/livery vehicle now, basically--much like the Town Car a few years back, the DTS will probably share that fate.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You guys are underestimating the impact of the G8, it's going to do very well. (has production started yet ?- I'm assuming we'll see them in the US in December)

Yeah that 30k is really going to make an impact! :rotflmao:

Edited November 3, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Z-06]

Yeah that 30k is really going to make an impact! :rotflmao:

Leave those poor Bitches alone.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 magazine once said a G35 was better than a 3-series mainly because it costs less. But the 335i is still the gold standard of small luxury cars by pretty much everyone. CTS lacks equipment and V8 power to be compared to the 5-series and that class, but if it lost to a G35, I would think an M35 would also beat it, and probably worse, the performance numbers would get closer, but the CTS's edge in features/interior would go away.

The CTS (4 inches longer than the G35) is still heavier than a BMW 535i or 550i, it was 4150 pounds as tested in Road and Track, that is obese, it is more than an STS V8. Next 5-series is going to use a lot of aluminum and carbon fiber to cut weight, (or at least keep it the same when they add luxury features and sound deadening). A Jaguar XJ8 is just under 3800 pounds, and is 9 inches longer than the CTS and has a V8, yet 350 pounds less. Cadillac needs to invest it weight reduction, then handling, acceleration and gas mileage all go up.

Compare a CTS AWD to a BMW AWD please... and stop trying stack the numbers like you always do. Base RWD CTS is 3874, Base RWD 535i is 3704. It's only 170lbs difference. The 550i doesn't have AWD so it's hard to make a comparison there. The BMW 535xi is only 60lbs lighter than the AWD CTS... so stop trying to call the second fattest girl at the bar "skinny".

That said, both need to go on a diet.

[Drew Dowdell]

Buick calls the Enclave the finest crossover ever, no automotive publication does. I say the SRX is way better, MDX is better, Motor trend said the CX-9 was better. The BMW X5 is a crossover, I think that is better than an Enclave too.

I think the Camry has really poor handling and has always been bland, but I will say most of their materials are good for the price and their gap fits are tight. Overall I think it is an average car, but they have an unbelievable brand image going that keeps buyers coming in. The Accord is the best car in the segment, hopefully the Malibu can become #2 (based on reviews, not sales).

Performance: 335i/CTS DI

0-60 5.0/6.0 seconds

1/3 mile 13.5/14.5 seconds

skidpad .90g/.86g

slalom 68.7/66.6 mph

60-0 119/118 feet

gas mileage 18.9/17.2 mpg

sound at 70mph 66dBA/68dBA

weight balance 51/49 for BMW, 57/43 on CTS

BMW has a 12 year rust warranty which is rather impressive, I didn't know anyone offered more than 6 year until I saw that. The CTS is just beat by that car except breaking, although very few cars match up well to BMW.

In breaking news, the Mini-Cooper beats the Crown Victoria in performance handling. We compared the two directly because they share price points.

Do you somehow expect Cadillac to magically overcome physics? You'd say you want the Cadillac to be 3-series sized, but in the same breath say it has to start at $25k or else you wouldn't buy it because it's a Cadillac. You can't have it both ways ya know.

[Drew Dowdell]

if you want your 3 series to feel luxurious, you gotta pay 50k.

if I could make it flashing... I would

[Oracle of Delphi]

Leave those poor Bitches alone.

Leave Holden (oops I mean Britney) alone!

[CaddyXLR-V]

Does it really matter if GM doesn't increase it's sales? If GM is selling better cars, with less going to fleet, at a higher price, but overall still selling less cars, is that really a bad thing?

If GM is selling better cars, they are just positioning themselves better in the future, with a better image, and down the road they may be able to increase sales. If they can manage to make some money while doing it, that would be even better.

Toyota can be #1 in sales. That wouldn't mean they have the best cars. What Toyota can you honestly say is best in class?

[Northstar]

I never said that Malibu sales won't boost total volume, I stated that the overall outlook for GM's lineup increasing volume sales is unlikely.

Just some reasons:

For every Malibu sale, some Impala sales will be lost. Buick's 2 volume sedan entries are down over 20% this year...wanna take a guess as to next years shrinkage?

Yes you did:

Impala v. Malibu = net no increase in sales

Again, you have a pretty ridiculous statement there. "For every Malibu sale, some Impala sales will be lost." Umm, ok, that makes absolutely no sense. Buick's sales being down doesn't have much to do with the Malibu... much less considering the LaCrosse is at the end of its life cycle.

Pontiac is getting 30k G8's...but the Grand Prix is a rental queen already, the G6 is trending downward (again) and Pontiac will also sell 0 minivans, fewer Torrents and the G5 is just an abomination.

First you complain that GM's increases are due to fleet, then you are complaining that the G8 won't match the sales of the rental queen GP? G6 is not down that much, only 1k/month. How many minivans did Pontiac sell to being with? Not many. The Torrent is going to GMC, and the G5 has never sold well (actually total Delta sales are basically flat for the year, so no losses there, plus a new Cobalt is coming soon).

Caddy will double CTS sales, but the STS will continue to stink up the joint, the DTS will continue its descent and the Caddy trucks are a bad commodities day away from irrelevance.

If CTS sales double, and STS dies, that's a net increase. What is this jibberish about Caddy trucks? Escalade is down .1%, ESV up 10.1%, EXT up 34.4%, and SRX up 1.1%. Total sales of 70k is more truck sales than any other brand than Lexus. Yep, really close to being irrelevant.

Factor in a shrinking, super-competitve large truck market, new entries from Dodge & Ford and a sh!tty housing market and you're again one Israeli missle strike away from complete disaster.

I will only concede that the non-US operations are a bright spot--but GM has never depended upon said operations to keep the ship afloat. That's a tough point to hand your hopes on--and that's where it's at, IMO>

Shrinking full size truck market? Is that why T900 sales of 1,088,087 this year is only down about 9k units through 10 months vs last year's total of 1,097,385? Perhaps it is shrinking, but a decline of less than .9% for the year for GM is not shrinking. Please, post some facts next time, not opinion.

[smk4565]

all crossovers have weight issues. one of the recent road tests i read of the cx-9, it tipped the scales at 4600 pounds.

the lambdas are not much more. plus they have more cargo area and 3rd row space so the tradeoff is ok.

i am not sure why the CTS has to be an exact equal to the 335 in terms of performance. the CTS holds up pretty well versus most versions of the 3 series while having a far superior interior. again, not everyone buying a luxury marque needs track performance. the CTS holds its own on the track and in its price class provides a unique combination of luxury, features, usable space, and design, that the spartan 3 series cannot. if you want your 3 series to feel luxurious, you gotta pay 50k.

The Enclave AWD is over 5,000 pounds though, if it were 4600, it wouldn't be so bad. The SRX V8 is about 4450 pounds, it is 10 times better than the Enclave. The Lambdas are good, but very large, so they compete with the Tahoe too, and GM doesn't have much in the small to midsize 5 seater SUV range. But the CX-9 is good also, and one the Lambdas get options and head over $40,000, they run into Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and vehicles that at least seem prestigious and better, even if they aren't. Most people want to say "I drive a Lexus (or Acura, Mercedes, etc)" rather than "I drive a Buick."

The 335i can be pretty loaded at $48k. The 3-series has adaptive cruise control which is about $1800, bluetooth and some options that Cadillac doesn't offer, even on the STS. If you get the same options on a 3-series and CTS they are almost identical in price, plus BMW, free maintenance, crazy high resale value.

No luxury car matches the 3-series in performance, so I don't expect the CTS to match it, but it could be closer. And track performance must matter to some people, they are selling 120,000 or so 3-series per year, near half million world wide, they are doing something right.

[smk4565]

12 year rust warranty....hmmmm....too bad so many beemer engines need work over time.

you always want to compare the 335i but fact is not all 3 series buyers buy a 335. many buy 328's or 325's or 330's or whatever effed up designations that they dream up.

check the weight balance on the cts. i do not believe your 57/43 is right.

Well I like top engines, so I was comparing 335i to CTS Direct Injection, plus all the magazines post data on those. Road and Track listed 57/43 weight distribution for the rear drive CTS, I was surprised by that also. I know most buy the lower engine BMW because they want a BMW at low cost, but the CTS is going to have most of its sales with the 263 hp engine as well. And the 335i engine doesn't make 300 hp, I read it is more likely in the 330-340 range, but they underrate it, Automobile Magazine dyno tested it at 284 rear wheel horsepower.

[smk4565]

Compare a CTS AWD to a BMW AWD please... and stop trying stack the numbers like you always do. Base RWD CTS is 3874, Base RWD 535i is 3704. It's only 170lbs difference. The 550i doesn't have AWD so it's hard to make a comparison there. The BMW 535xi is only 60lbs lighter than the AWD CTS... so stop trying to call the second fattest girl at the bar "skinny".

That said, both need to go on a diet.

Well a CTS DI with all wheel drive is about 6.4 or 6.5 seconds 0-60, I forget which I read, but it was more than the 6.0 for the rear drive car. The BMW 535xi is 5.4 seconds 0-60. The next 5 series is going to have a lot of carbon fiber and aluminum to cut weight, it will be lighter than the current model, and they are have a twin turbo V8 and a twin turbo V10 going in it. So they'll cut weight and speed up the car, I wonder if in 2 years Cadillac will do the same to keep up.

[Northstar]

Yeah that 30k is really going to make an impact! :rotflmao:

Actually, it will be in retail sales. That's a 50% increase over the Grand Prix in retail sales, and they'll be sold at higher prices, too. Who's laughing now?! :rotflmao:

[smk4565]

In breaking news, the Mini-Cooper beats the Crown Victoria in performance handling. We compared the two directly because they share price points.

Do you somehow expect Cadillac to magically overcome physics? You'd say you want the Cadillac to be 3-series sized, but in the same breath say it has to start at $25k or else you wouldn't buy it because it's a Cadillac. You can't have it both ways ya know.

No, I actually think no Cadillac should be under $35,000. I think the CTS was over sized to begin with, then it got bigger. Now they are mid size in a compact price range. Their sizing is just all messed up. And their flagship has a $43,500 base price compared to $87,000 at Mercedes. I like Cadillac styling, but I don't like when they use plastic like they do to keep that $32,000 base price going. Cadillacs lose value too fast for me to buy one new, I'd look at a used one, but I didn't like the 08 CTS enough to buy one. I am waiting until the 555i is out, and I'll see what Cadillac has then.

[Northstar]

The Enclave AWD is over 5,000 pounds though, if it were 4600, it wouldn't be so bad. The SRX V8 is about 4450 pounds, it is 10 times better than the Enclave. The Lambdas are good, but very large, so they compete with the Tahoe too, and GM doesn't have much in the small to midsize 5 seater SUV range. But the CX-9 is good also, and one the Lambdas get options and head over $40,000, they run into Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and vehicles that at least seem prestigious and better, even if they aren't. Most people want to say "I drive a Lexus (or Acura, Mercedes, etc)" rather than "I drive a Buick."

The 335i can be pretty loaded at $48k. The 3-series has adaptive cruise control which is about $1800, bluetooth and some options that Cadillac doesn't offer, even on the STS. If you get the same options on a 3-series and CTS they are almost identical in price, plus BMW, free maintenance, crazy high resale value.

No luxury car matches the 3-series in performance, so I don't expect the CTS to match it, but it could be closer. And track performance must matter to some people, they are selling 120,000 or so 3-series per year, near half million world wide, they are doing something right.

The Enclave with every option is under $46k. An ML350 without NAV, rear DVD (only option being leather -- is $48k). In addition, the Enclave has 3 rows of seats and is much bigger. An RX is close in price, but again, 2 rows of seats. If you want a 3-row Lexus SUV, a GX is more starting out than a loaded Enclave. The Enclave is a much better value than either of those. And I'm sure no one will care if its a Buick when they see that it's better looking than their Lexus or Mercedes.

The CTS does have bluetooth as an option, it just happens to be dealer-installed. A loaded CTS without AWD is $46435. A 335i without Active Cruise control, power rear sunshade, or Active Steering is $50720. That's over a $4k difference. You aren't going to spend $4k on oil changes and regular maintenance.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Actually, it will be in retail sales. That's a 50% increase over the Grand Prix in retail sales, and they'll be sold at higher prices, too. Who's laughing now?! :rotflmao:

Laugh all you want, this car is going to fail in the face of high gas prices, let's see who is laughing come this time next year! Tick Tock, Tick Tock. Pontiac's days are numbered! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited November 4, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

Performance: 335i/CTS DI

0-60 5.0/6.0 seconds

1/3 mile 13.5/14.5 seconds

skidpad .90g/.86g

slalom 68.7/66.6 mph

60-0 119/118 feet

gas mileage 18.9/17.2 mpg

sound at 70mph 66dBA/68dBA

weight balance 51/49 for BMW, 57/43 on CTS

Nice job comparing apples to oranges. Let me compare apples to apples. Do you expect Cadillac to not only outperform a vehicle very few other cars have, but also do so at a big disadvantage due to weight? Why not compare a BMW of similar weight? Also, you're weight distribution is wrong. The CTS is 52.5% front, 47.5% rear.

535i/CTS DI

0-60 5.5/5.8 (C&D tested)

1/4 mile 14.0/14.6 (C&D)

Skidpad .89g/.85g

Slalom 65.3/67mph (Edmunds - C&D's track was wet)

60-0 113/109ft (Edmunds)

MPG 22.5(highway?)/18 (Edmunds) (both are rated 17/26 EPA)

I'd say Cadillac did a very respectable job.

[Northstar]

Laugh all you want, this car is going to fail in the face of high gas prices, let's see who is laughing come this time next year! Tick Tock, Tick Tock. Pontiac's days are numbered! :AH-HA_wink:

And that is why the Charger R/T and 300C failed, too, I assume? Those get 15/23, and they sold over 16k units last month. And for anyone who wants better MPG, the V6 will offer competitive MPG for a car of the G8's size.

MPG is not going to make the G8 fail, sorry. Try again. A 360HP sedan that handles like a BMW and looks good with a price tag under $30k is not going to fail.

Pontiac's days as a company that pushes ancient, FWD-based sedans with 3 foot overhangs and piss-poor handling are numbered! :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

This time next year, you will be crying on my shoulder, but not to worry PCS will make it all better by giving you more Opel cars!

[Toyota.vs.GM]

This time next year, you will be crying on my shoulder, but not to worry PCS will make it all better by giving you more Opel cars!

So,you sure that GM is going to kill Pontiac when the G6 runs out in 2013?Northstar,thegriffon, do any of you know does Pontiac have anything in its pipeline? Edited November 4, 2007 by Toyota.vs.GM

[thegriffon]

2013-14 is too far out. If there were any plans they could be changed well before then. At the moment though, despite declining sales, Pontiac-GMC's retail sales probably rival Ford's. GM's main concern seems to be how to improve fuel economy and focus Pontiac on performance models at the same time. It will require substantial downsizing, but as the Grand Am was more popular then the larger G6, that may work in their favor.

[Northstar]

So,you sure that GM is going to kill Pontiac when the G6 runs out in 2013?Northstar,thegriffon, do any of you know does Pontiac have anything in its pipeline?

There is another G8 variant coming next year (GXP), the Solstice Targa starts production early '09, and the G6 is scheduled for a refresh for the '09 MY. The Torrent is becoming a GMC, the G5 will die when the new Cobalt comes out in mid-2009. Alpha appears to be a reality, and there is going to have to be something besides the Cadillac, and Pontiac is a natural fit.

PCS is hoping Pontiac dies since Pontiac is becoming the American Holden. Whether he gets his wish or not remains to be seen, but I would guess he won't.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

PCS is hoping Pontiac dies since Pontiac is becoming the American Holden. Whether he gets his wish or not remains to be seen, but I would guess he won't.

I have always wonder why he hates Holden so much! thank you Northstar and griffon.

[smk4565]

Nice job comparing apples to oranges. Let me compare apples to apples. Do you expect Cadillac to not only outperform a vehicle very few other cars have, but also do so at a big disadvantage due to weight? Why not compare a BMW of similar weight? Also, you're weight distribution is wrong. The CTS is 52.5% front, 47.5% rear.

535i/CTS DI

0-60 5.5/5.8 (C&D tested)

1/4 mile 14.0/14.6 (C&D)

Skidpad .89g/.85g

Slalom 65.3/67mph (Edmunds - C&D's track was wet)

60-0 113/109ft (Edmunds)

MPG 22.5(highway?)/18 (Edmunds) (both are rated 17/26 EPA)

I'd say Cadillac did a very respectable job.

Car and Driver just tested a 535 awd and had 5.4 0-60 and said they thought without the weight from awd, it would be closer to the 5.2 seconds that the 550i posts. Plus that car is in it's 5th model year, although it had some upgrades along the way, the only major change is the engine. They are benchmarking against a 2004 car. Even the 98-2003 era 540i handles as well as and is even faster than the CTS. The M5 without a speed limiter can go 205 mph, so should the CTS-V get compared to that when the Corvette can't even go that fast? The CTS should be compared to cars in it's price range, if they move it up in price when the BTS arrives, then they can compare it to middle luxury cars.

[smk4565]

And that is why the Charger R/T and 300C failed, too, I assume? Those get 15/23, and they sold over 16k units last month. And for anyone who wants better MPG, the V6 will offer competitive MPG for a car of the G8's size.

MPG is not going to make the G8 fail, sorry. Try again. A 360HP sedan that handles like a BMW and looks good with a price tag under $30k is not going to fail.

Pontiac's days as a company that pushes ancient, FWD-based sedans with 3 foot overhangs and piss-poor handling are numbered! :AH-HA_wink:

But the GTO had 400 hp and it failed. If the CTS can't handle like a BMW because it is too large, how will the even larger and heavier G8 handle as well as a BMW? I think Holden's have really bland styling inside and out, so I am not a fan of the G8's look. I thought the GTO was too bland, the G8 seems like repeating the same mistake. Pontiac doesn't have a solid image either, from all the fleet dumping the last 5-10 years, getting people to buy a $30-35k G8 could be tough. 25-30k units is probably manageable, but that isn't a big hit.

[smk4565]

2013-14 is too far out. If there were any plans they could be changed well before then. At the moment though, despite declining sales, Pontiac-GMC's retail sales probably rival Ford's. GM's main concern seems to be how to improve fuel economy and focus Pontiac on performance models at the same time. It will require substantial downsizing, but as the Grand Am was more popular then the larger G6, that may work in their favor.

Cheap performance with gas mileage is easy, Mazda and some other brands do it. Downsize (and cut weight) every Pontiac, scrap every pushrod, 6 speed auto standard in every car. 2.4 liter with DI standard, 2.0 liter turbo optional on Solstice, Alpha car and G6 if it is still around. The turbo is 260 hp and was 22/31 mpg under old epa numbers, better mileage than any GM V6. G8 will probably never get small enough, but the 2.0 turbo could probably move it, or 2.8L V6 turbo if they have to. V8 model gets hybrid, maybe light system if two mode is too heavy. A small diesel V6 could also solve some problems, the BMW 330d in Europe averages near 40 mpg, and still has a 0-60 time around 6.5 seconds.

[Drew Dowdell]

But the GTO had 400 hp and it failed. If the CTS can't handle like a BMW because it is too large, how will the even larger and heavier G8 handle as well as a BMW? I think Holden's have really bland styling inside and out, so I am not a fan of the G8's look. I thought the GTO was too bland, the G8 seems like repeating the same mistake. Pontiac doesn't have a solid image either, from all the fleet dumping the last 5-10 years, getting people to buy a $30-35k G8 could be tough. 25-30k units is probably manageable, but that isn't a big hit.

Good god! You do know that there is more than just the 3-series right!? Even the OLD GTO ran with the 5-series of it's day. Compare 5-series sized cars to the 5-series! If not, I'm going to start bitching about how the 7-series can't out handle a CTS. Quit humping the damn 3-series and realize there are OTHER cars and classes that BMW covers as well. BMW just happens to be one of the most expensive cars in it's SIZE class.

You act like handling is the only thing that sells the 3-series. It's not, there's also pretentiousness, snobbery, and group think to name a few. You keep spouting off about how well the 3-series sells worldwide, but you never say that MOST of those sales outside of this country are 320 diesels with cloth seats and hand crank window. It's just a RWD Volkswagon Jetta TDI everywhere else.

[Drew Dowdell]

Car and Driver just tested a 535 awd and had 5.4 0-60 and said they thought without the weight from awd, it would be closer to the 5.2 seconds that the 550i posts.

So... 5.3 then? Because if the 535 RWD gets the same 0-60 as the 550i..... then there is something seriously deficient about the V8 in the 550.

I like the pure speculation you're using against Cadillac though. Classy move.

[Chevy Nick]

The G8 will be to performance buyers what the Prius was to environmentalists. The G8 GT is rated at 360hp, but makes a neck-snapping 390 ft-lbs of torque. The L92 is a great engine for modification - I'm talking 500hp to the wheels with a new cam, headers and some bolt-ons. This car will have a cult following similar to 4th gen f-bodies. GM is doing more for 'car guys' than any other company.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Chevy Nick

[Northstar]

Car and Driver just tested a 535 awd and had 5.4 0-60 and said they thought without the weight from awd, it would be closer to the 5.2 seconds that the 550i posts. Plus that car is in it's 5th model year, although it had some upgrades along the way, the only major change is the engine. They are benchmarking against a 2004 car. Even the 98-2003 era 540i handles as well as and is even faster than the CTS. The M5 without a speed limiter can go 205 mph, so should the CTS-V get compared to that when the Corvette can't even go that fast? The CTS should be compared to cars in it's price range, if they move it up in price when the BTS arrives, then they can compare it to middle luxury cars.

AWD helps 0-60 in some cases depending on tire spin...

Your statement, "Plus that car is in it's 5th model year, although it had some upgrades along the way, the only major change is the engine. " is ridiculous. You're comparing acceleration times between two cars, yet the engine just got put in the car (even though it's old). Clearly, since the engine is new for '08 in the 5er, and the engine in new in the CTS for '08, the two can be compared regardless of how old the rest of the 5er is. The 535i was not available in 2004, so get your head out of your ass.

I would be quite surprised if the M5 was able to reach 205mph. Perhaps it is because of the ridiculously high redline, but it weighs 4000lbs.

FWIW, the Z06 did get tested over 200mph by C&D, I believe.

[Northstar]

But the GTO had 400 hp and it failed. If the CTS can't handle like a BMW because it is too large, how will the even larger and heavier G8 handle as well as a BMW? I think Holden's have really bland styling inside and out, so I am not a fan of the G8's look. I thought the GTO was too bland, the G8 seems like repeating the same mistake. Pontiac doesn't have a solid image either, from all the fleet dumping the last 5-10 years, getting people to buy a $30-35k G8 could be tough. 25-30k units is probably manageable, but that isn't a big hit.

Bull$h!. All of it.

The GTO did not fail. It sold quite well for it's price and segment. Better than Camaro SS + WS6, better than high level Mustangs. It just didn't sell the initial estimate of 18k/year.

The new reviews of the CTS say it handles almost as well as a 335i, and Edmunds' test data says it pulls more G's on the skidpad and out-slaloms the 5er.

There are so many differences between the GTO and G8 that you can't compare them. 2 doors vs 4 doors, a trunk vs no trunk, a V6 model available, cheaper price for the G8. You can't base the G8 on what the GTO did.

GM could move 80k G8s if it had the capacity. It's a better car than the Charger which sells well over 100k.

If the G8 is bland, the 5er is bland. Neither are bland. They're stylish by being sleek and having great proportions, not by having very bold styling like the Charger.

Doesn't Dodge have the same image problems as Pontiac? They're having no problem selling Chargers.

Oh, and how many times must you be told that MT said the Commodore SS-V handles like the old M5? Get some facts and quit spewing bull$h!, or you will be gone soon. We are tired of your baseless posts.

[enzl]

Bull$h!. All of it.

The GTO did not fail. It sold quite well for it's price and segment. Better than Camaro SS + WS6, better than high level Mustangs. It just didn't sell the initial estimate of 18k/year.

The new reviews of the CTS say it handles almost as well as a 335i, and Edmunds' test data says it pulls more G's on the skidpad and out-slaloms the 5er.

There are so many differences between the GTO and G8 that you can't compare them. 2 doors vs 4 doors, a trunk vs no trunk, a V6 model available, cheaper price for the G8. You can't base the G8 on what the GTO did.

GM could move 80k G8s if it had the capacity. It's a better car than the Charger which sells well over 100k.

If the G8 is bland, the 5er is bland. Neither are bland. They're stylish by being sleek and having great proportions, not by having very bold styling like the Charger.

Doesn't Dodge have the same image problems as Pontiac? They're having no problem selling Chargers.

Oh, and how many times must you be told that MT said the Commodore SS-V handles like the old M5? Get some facts and quit spewing bull$h!, or you will be gone soon. We are tired of your baseless posts.

Only here will you find somebody saying that the GTO was a success. Even Bob Lutz admits it was well intentioned but a failure---definitely from an economic perspective. While it isn't a bad car, the rebirth of the GTO was a 'just miss' product that had the misfortune of being introed while Chrysler was bringing back interesting RWD machines. Chrylser took heritage names and ideas and controversy and made it work (to a large extent)...GM just missed. GTO provided no halo for Pontiac & was a tough sell---not good.

The G8 has a better shot, but selling 30k of them when the Bonnie & GP are either one foot in the grave or gone is nothing to write home about.

Now, as for your threats to ban this poor guy/girl:

Do you realize how out of touch your fantasy about the GTO makes you sound? And threatening to ban a guy over his opinion is LOW.

Why not just get it over with and ban all dissent? That's how many of you guys have managed to chase off anyone with a defensible position that didn't jibe with your party line--and it ruins the site, man.

I got news for you, dude- GM is BETTER today because somebody finally spoke up and said that the sh!t they were pushing wasn't going to do it...Mr. Lutz was the voice of dissent and doubt in the GM airspace---so when you take someone's legitimate criticism and threaten them with it, you look like a bully and a loser--both of which probably aren't too far off.

Edited November 6, 2007 by enzl

[Camino LS6]

GTO was not a failure - period.

GM made a profit on every single one.

And it is the best sport coupe they have ever offered.

I'm tired of hearing this BS about GTO - it simply isn't true.

[Z-06]

I got news for you, dude- GM is BETTER today because somebody finally spoke up and said that the sh!t they were pushing wasn't going to do it...Mr. Lutz was the voice of dissent and doubt in the GM airspace---so when you take someone's legitimate criticism and threaten them with it, you look like a bully and a loser--both of which probably aren't too far off.

That will be Jim Dollinger the Buickman.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why not just get it over with and ban all dissent? That's how many of you guys have managed to chase off anyone with a defensible position that didn't jibe with your party line--and it ruins the site, man.

It's not dissent when someone consistently and persistently posts incorrect information and invalid comparisons. If I came on here ranting about how a Subaru Legacy couldn't out handle or out accelerate a Mini-Cooper S constantly and calling the Legacy junk for it, I'd get banned.

Classing cars based on just price is stupid. stupid stupid stupid.

The TSX, Lucerne, 300c, GS, ES, RL all fall into this price class as well. Do we *really* need a comparison between Lucerne and the 3-series just to prove that, yes Virginia, the smaller car will out handle the larger car, with threads upon threads about how GM needs to fix this or fix that so they could possibly outsell the 3-series with a Lucerne?

It's flat out NOT dissent. It's trolling.

[enzl]

It's not dissent when someone consistently and persistently posts incorrect information and invalid comparisons. If I came on here ranting about how a Subaru Legacy couldn't out handle or out accelerate a Mini-Cooper S constantly and calling the Legacy junk for it, I'd get banned.

Classing cars based on just price is stupid. stupid stupid stupid.

The TSX, Lucerne, 300c, GS, ES, RL all fall into this price class as well. Do we *really* need a comparison between Lucerne and the 3-series just to prove that, yes Virginia, the smaller car will out handle the larger car, with threads upon threads about how GM needs to fix this or fix that so they could possibly outsell the 3-series with a Lucerne?

It's flat out NOT dissent. It's trolling.

Hang on....are you saying that the OPINION expressed---opposite an admin--is trolling?

There was nothing personal, nothing offensive and nothing too controversial in what the poster (SMK) was saying.

And until anybody breaks out the Accounting for the GTO program, I refuse to believe it was a success---if it was, wouldn't there be another Zeta paired with the Camaro?

In case you don't believe me (or SMK gets banned in the next few minutes), here's Bob Lutz on the GTO:

Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

Written By: Reilly

Filed Under: Videos, Coupes, Chicago Auto Show, Pontiac, Automotive News February 21st, 2007 8:49 AM

In a new video on Automotive News, Bob Lutz discusses why the Pontiac GTO (2003-2006) failed in North America. The video was taped weeks ago at the Chicago Auto Show.

Regarding the GTO’s failure, Lutz says:

- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market…for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”

- “We overpriced it.”

- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”

Click through for more on what Lutz said about Pontiac’s new G8, plus a link to the video

Lutz reports that the G8 will be in showrooms in the beginning of 2008 as a 2009 model. He also says the G8 and Grand Prix will be sold together for some time. Pricing will be “where the Dodge Magnum is” both for the V-6 and V-8 models.

http://news.windingroad.com/videos/bob-lut...iac-gto-failed/

Unbelievable---is Bob Lutz wrong about what he was wrong about as well?

If the father of the idea says it was a "Failure", isn't that enough? Nah, just shoot me down--better yet, why not threaten to ban me as well?

You are ruining this site...just thought you should know. Every critical voice has dried up and gone away---coincidence, I think not. But don't worry, I'm not as easily shaken as the rest.

Other Admins should be offended as well. It's an abuse of power, inappropriate and everything against what this site purports to be. "GM's Biggest fans & Toughest Critics" my ass.

[Camino LS6]

Hang on....are you saying that the OPINION expressed---opposite an admin--is trolling?

There was nothing personal, nothing offensive and nothing too controversial in what the poster (SMK) was saying.

And until anybody breaks out the Accounting for the GTO program, I refuse to believe it was a success---if it was, wouldn't there be another Zeta paired with the Camaro?

In case you don't believe me (or SMK gets banned in the next few minutes), here's Bob Lutz on the GTO:

Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

Written By: Reilly

Filed Under: Videos, Coupes, Chicago Auto Show, Pontiac, Automotive News February 21st, 2007 8:49 AM

In a new video on Automotive News, Bob Lutz discusses why the Pontiac GTO (2003-2006) failed in North America. The video was taped weeks ago at the Chicago Auto Show.

Regarding the GTO’s failure, Lutz says:

- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market…for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”

- “We overpriced it.”

- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”

Click through for more on what Lutz said about Pontiac’s new G8, plus a link to the video

Lutz reports that the G8 will be in showrooms in the beginning of 2008 as a 2009 model. He also says the G8 and Grand Prix will be sold together for some time. Pricing will be “where the Dodge Magnum is” both for the V-6 and V-8 models.

http://news.windingroad.com/videos/bob-lut...iac-gto-failed/

Unbelievable---is Bob Lutz wrong about what he was wrong about as well?

If the father of the idea says it was a "Failure", isn't that enough? Nah, just shoot me down--better yet, why not threaten to ban me as well?

You are ruining this site...just thought you should know. Every critical voice has dried up and gone away---coincidence, I think not. But don't worry, I'm not as easily shaken as the rest.

Other Admins should be offended as well. It's an abuse of power, inappropriate and everything against what this site purports to be. "GM's Biggest fans & Toughest Critics" my ass.

Wow.

Where to start?

1) The author of the article called the GTO a failure, Lutz just admitted to the mistakes GM made handling the program. He did not call the car a failure.

2) No one has been banned as of this point, in fact we rarely ban anyone.

3) Oldsmoboi is not a member of the staff.

4) The site is not being ruined by anyone (although some members may be a net minus for the site's well-being).

5)The "critical voices" as you call them are free to return and post their thoughts as none of them have been banned. They have simply had little to say in the face of so much recent good news for GM - they thrive in the negative environment we are seeing come to an end.

6) Even mods are free to express their views here, so what's the complaint?

7) Correcting misinformation is something all of us should be glad that someone like Northstar or Oldsmoboi are willing to take the time to do.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

LOL

FUnny how the anti-GM people here "jump right on it" telling us why GM will still fail when GM shows a few signs of success.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hang on....are you saying that the OPINION expressed---opposite an admin--is trolling?

There was nothing personal, nothing offensive and nothing too controversial in what the poster (SMK) was saying.

You are correct. There was nothing personal, nothing offensive, and nothing controversial. However, continuously posting incorrect information has gotten people banned before.

OMG! SMK has been SHELVED!

[enzl]

Wow.

Where to start?

1) The author of the article called the GTO a failure, Lutz just admitted to the mistakes GM made handling the program. He did not call the car a failure.

2) No one has been banned as of this point, in fact we rarely ban anyone.

3) Oldsmoboi is not a member of the staff.

4) The site is not being ruined by anyone (although some members may be a net minus for the site's well-being).

5)The "critical voices" as you call them are free to return and post their thoughts as none of them have been banned. They have simply had little to say in the face of so much recent good news for GM - they thrive in the negative environment we are seeing come to an end.

6) Even mods are free to express their views here, so what's the complaint?

7) Correcting misinformation is something all of us should be glad that someone like Northstar or Oldsmoboi are willing to take the time to do.

First, the GTO program, whether or not the vehicle had merit, was NOT successful, Via Uncle Bob Lutz, not me.

Second, here's the threat-by Northstar, directed at SMK, in Black & White, for your review, from Nov. 5:

Oh, and how many times must you be told that MT said the Commodore SS-V handles like the old M5? Get some facts and quit spewing bull$h!, or you will be gone soon. We are tired of your baseless posts.

Third, I was assessing NS's role, via a reply to Olds' post---I can read the "admin" info to the left.

Fourth/Fifth, IMO, the site is being ruined---and you blaming GM's illusory 'success' as the reason is YOUR rationalization of the issue at large--trust me, a number of people have contacted my personal e-mail to express their dissatisfaction with how unevenhanded a number of situations have been handled.

Sixth, no complaint about the content of anyone's opinion, but to unequivocally state that the GTO was a success is horsesh!t and it belies almost every public pronouncement made by GM---just to be fair, that doesn't make the CAR itself a bad one, just not the success you are claiming, nor a success per GM's opinion, not just mine.

Seventh- you can correct facts, but when it's an active debate--such as the 3/5 series vs. CTS debate--size vs. price vs. whatever--those are not facts in that scenario, it's an active back and forth that was abruptly and incorrectly ended with a threat that was not deserved--NS stepped over the line....Please just admit it so we can get on with things....

Edited November 6, 2007 by enzl

[enzl]

LOL

FUnny how the anti-GM people here "jump right on it" telling us why GM will still fail when GM shows a few signs of success.

Noone is saying that, although I will absolutely stand corrected if my opinions about GM or anything else are proven wrong in the future. So far, we've got 'success' being defined as finally stabilizing marketshare in a down market, but I'll leave that alone for now.

PS-Just as an aside, Lewis Black wouldn't have a Confederate Flag as an avatar...I can't believe one member of this site hasn't called you on it. It's just awful, man.

I guess you must also stand on the 'right' side of opinion here. F*ck all the stuff that piece of toilet paper stands for, it doesn't matter as long as you're towing the company line....

[Flybrian]

Let's get back on track to discussing GM sales, not the inferiority of the GTO, CTS, F-22, and God vis a vis the 3-Series.

[Camino LS6]

First, the GTO program, whether or not the vehicle had merit, was NOT successful, Via Uncle Bob Lutz, not me.

Second, here's the threat-by Northstar, directed at SMK, in Black & White, for your review, from Nov. 5:

Oh, and how many times must you be told that MT said the Commodore SS-V handles like the old M5? Get some facts and quit spewing bull$h!, or you will be gone soon. We are tired of your baseless posts.

Third, I was assessing NS's role, via a reply to Olds' post---I can read the "admin" info to the left.

Fourth/Fifth, IMO, the site is being ruined---and you blaming GM's illusory 'success' as the reason is YOUR rationalization of the issue at large--trust me, a number of people have contacted my personal e-mail to express their dissatisfaction with how unevenhanded a number of situations have been handled.

Sixth, no complaint about the content of anyone's opinion, but to unequivocally state that the GTO was a success is horsesh!t and it belies almost every public pronouncement made by GM---just to be fair, that doesn't make the CAR itself a bad one, just not the success you are claiming, nor a success per GM's opinion, not just mine.

Seventh- you can correct facts, but when it's an active debate--such as the 3/5 series vs. CTS debate--size vs. price vs. whatever--those are not facts in that scenario, it's an active back and forth that was abruptly and incorrectly ended with a threat that was not deserved--NS stepped over the line....Please just admit it so we can get on with things....

The one critical determining aspect of the GTO program that you don't get is that the car was already approved based upon the business case for the Holden Monaro alone - automatically making every GTO a bonus sale. GM certainly made some mistakes concerning the way the program was handled (primarily bringing it here so late in the life-cycle of the platform), but to call the car a failure is absurd. GM failed the GTO more than the other way around.

The declaration made by Northstar, while unsubtle, does not cross the boundaries into the level of threat in my view. I would call it a warning. Bannings only happen after a discussion in the mod forum.

Not evenhanded? Please. I regularly defend members I honestly can't stand personally in our official proceedings. Those who complain to you are frankly wasting their time, they would do better e-mailing one of the staff to address any concerns they may have. I regularly recieve sincere messages of thanks for handling troubles here in fair fashion - so excuse my discounting of your assessment.

You would likely be surprised to see exactly what positions I take in the official discussions amongst the staff. I'm afraid that I can't tell you what those are as that is a banable offense - even for me. A PM is the best way to address any concerns you or anyone else may have regarding the way the site is run - an open forum is not an appropriate place to discuss issues like this.

[Drew Dowdell]

From SMK

The CTS's track numbers are well behind it's competitors except for the C-class, and the CTS's gas mileage is rather so-so as well.

From edmunds

But when it comes to turning and stopping, the big Caddy has almost as much hustle as its smaller, lighter competition. It recorded the shortest 60-0 stopping distance of the group at 109 feet and tied the Infiniti for the highest lateral grip at 0.89g. It was the only car that didn't exceed 68 mph in the slalom, but its 67.2-mph pass makes it no slouch.

From SMK

The CTS (4 inches longer than the G35) is still heavier than a BMW 535i or 550i, it was 4150 pounds as tested in Road and Track, that is obese, it is more than an STS V8.

What he means to say is that an AWD CTS is heavier than a RWD 535i. An AWD 535ix is only 60lbs. lighter than the CTS. How is that not obese also?

From SMK

Performance: 335i/CTS DI

0-60 5.0/6.0 seconds

1/3 mile 13.5/14.5 seconds

skidpad .90g/.86g

slalom 68.7/66.6 mph

60-0 119/118 feet

gas mileage 18.9/17.2 mpg

sound at 70mph 66dBA/68dBA

weight balance 51/49 for BMW, 57/43 on CTS

I don't know if these numbers are just made up or what. The 0-60s are wrong for both, the skidpad is wrong for both the CTS did better, the slalom is wrong for both, the weight balance is wrong on the CTS.

From SMK:

If you get the same options on a 3-series and CTS they are almost identical in price

again, quite simply wrong

[Camino LS6]

This time next year, you will be crying on my shoulder, but not to worry PCS will make it all better by giving you more Opel cars!

That will be tough to do since Opel doesn't make anything I'd want. They certainly don't have anything to compare to Holden's obvious talent with desireable cars. :AH-HA_wink:

[enzl]

The one critical determining aspect of the GTO program that you don't get is that the car was already approved based upon the business case for the Holden Monaro alone - automatically making every GTO a bonus sale. GM certainly made some mistakes concerning the way the program was handled (primarily bringing it here so late in the life-cycle of the platform), but to call the car a failure is absurd. GM failed the GTO more than the other way around.

The declaration made by Northstar, while unsubtle, does not cross the boundaries into the level of threat in my view. I would call it a warning. Bannings only happen after a discussion in the mod forum.

Not evenhanded? Please. I regularly defend members I honestly can't stand personally in our official proceedings. Those who complain to you are frankly wasting their time, they would do better e-mailing one of the staff to address any concerns they may have. I regularly recieve sincere messages of thanks for handling troubles here in fair fashion - so excuse my discounting of your assessment.

You would likely be surprised to see exactly what positions I take in the official discussions amongst the staff. I'm afraid that I can't tell you what those are as that is a banable offense - even for me. A PM is the best way to address any concerns you or anyone else may have regarding the way the site is run - an open forum is not an appropriate place to discuss issues like this.

I'm going to let it go, but I still feel it's inappropriate to to what NS did---I'm happy to agree to disagree on that point.

A little history lesson about the GTO/Monaro program...the idea to bring the Monaro over here, mid-cycle, was advertised as Lutz'...so the car was NOT really designed with international markets in mind...although it did appear in the UK or Europe as a Vauxhall, IIRC. The guts of the GTO was old---think Catera old---at the time it was introduced here.

Proof: Take a look in the trunk of a GTO...the gastank had to be repositioned to get it to conform to US standards---there were a myriad of other detail changes made as well---so any suggestion that our GTO was a 'bonus' is just not true--it took development time, energy and $, plus shipping costs from around the planet and a sinking dollar to pay for it over the course of its life here in the States---moreover, while the car itself is nice, the cold, hard truth is that it failed at its mission, which was to raise the profile of Pontiac and create a buzz for the brand---whether GM failed the GTO or vice-versa, it doesn't change the end result, which is that the GTO failed to do what it needed to do. Pontiac is still sinking like a stone.

If 'failure' isn't a word your comfortable with, its only semantics that are separating our opinions in the matter, as the GTO (as a vehicle) isn't bad, it just isn't a "GTO", nor is it a success.

[Camino LS6]

I'm going to let it go, but I still feel it's inappropriate to to what NS did---I'm happy to agree to disagree on that point.

A little history lesson about the GTO/Monaro program...the idea to bring the Monaro over here, mid-cycle, was advertised as Lutz'...so the car was NOT really designed with international markets in mind...although it did appear in the UK or Europe as a Vauxhall, IIRC. The guts of the GTO was old---think Catera old---at the time it was introduced here.

Proof: Take a look in the trunk of a GTO...the gastank had to be repositioned to get it to conform to US standards---there were a myriad of other detail changes made as well---so any suggestion that our GTO was a 'bonus' is just not true--it took development time, energy and $, plus shipping costs from around the planet and a sinking dollar to pay for it over the course of its life here in the States---moreover, while the car itself is nice, the cold, hard truth is that it failed at its mission, which was to raise the profile of Pontiac and create a buzz for the brand---whether GM failed the GTO or vice-versa, it doesn't change the end result, which is that the GTO failed to do what it needed to do. Pontiac is still sinking like a stone.

If 'failure' isn't a word your comfortable with, its only semantics that are separating our opinions in the matter, as the GTO (as a vehicle) isn't bad, it just isn't a "GTO", nor is it a success.

I can't comment any farther on the comment by Northstar as I am constrained by C&G rules - so we need to leave that alone.

I can comment on the GTO program, however.

I'd say that Northstar and I likely know quite a bit more about those changes made to the Monaro to bring it to the US than most here do.

- Holden took a very basic platform from Opel and changed everything they could to create the Commodore line (including the Monaro). The Catera was a great example of not doing the platform right, while Commodore was the polar opposite. That's why the GTO is a great car (setting aside the success/failure debate a moment) and the Catera is remembered as the POS it was.

- The cost of the GTO conversion was also lessened byr the car's export (in LHD form) to other markets (GM Middle east). That fact spreads the single greatest expense (conversion to LHD) over a larger number of units. This is in addition to the fact that the car sold on every continent except Antarctica in one form or another.

- Holden operates on a much leaner budget than say, GMNA for example. The entire cost of creating the GTO from the Monaro cost less than the front fascia refresh on the '98-02 Firebirds.

- No, the car did not meet its sales goal of 18k/year. But it was a decent seller in the face of some very tough market conditions, not the least of which was the initial dealer misconduct.

- The 2004-2006 GTO outperforms any other GTO ever made in all objective ways.

- The car easily had the best fit/finish/interior of any GM car available at its debut.

- The car proved that sourcing cars from Australia could be done.

- It gave Pontiac a reason to exist for a time (admittedly an all too short time)

I could go into detail on all of this, but I think that you get the point. History will remember the 2004-2006 GTO as a watershed moment in the move by GM to globalize its business, leveraging the strengths of its facilities and talent around the world. This effort continues to this day, and it began with the GTO.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

PS-Just as an aside, Lewis Black wouldn't have a Confederate Flag as an avatar...I can't believe one member of this site hasn't called you on it. It's just awful, man.

LOL. Good thing I'm not Lewis Black.

It's pretty hypocritical to sit there and bitch at an admin (One who has spent MANY hours working hard on this site) about allowing people to speak freely, then turn around and attack me for doing just that. And why? Simply because you are not open minded enough to seperate a bigot from a historian. (Especially given the fact that I went out of my way to make my stance clear on the issue in the lounge)

This is a perfect example of the conformist mindset that is destroying EVERYTHING in our country. This " be free but think as I think" -or- "live your own life, but only if it's as I live mine." A more appropriate description here would be "judge, but only as I judge" as it's somehow in style to criticize my southern pride and discriminate against my choice to fly the flag for the sake of NOT discriminating.

Has it ever occured to the 'club' here that seems to hate me why I do and say some of the things I do?

I guess you must also stand on the 'right' side of opinion here.

In my mind, I'm always 'right'

it doesn't matter as long as you're towing the company line....

Facts are facts and will be reported as such. (From C&G at least) We're not saying GM is gravy, but they do seem to be making progress. And it gets pretty old when certain people constantly try to throw a line of into the positive news just for the sake of pointing out 'why GM still sucks' (I thought we got rid of that punk evok?)

Just take a look at the Malibu threads for god's sake. The car is getting excellent reviews (As I said it would, remember, "begrudging but good") and all people can talk about is the lack of some f*cking $2000 Nav system. Give me a break!

FWIW: Northstar might've stepped over the line a bit, but take it from me (I used to be an admin and one of the reasons I wanted out was because of my strong opinions/bias) it sucks to come here and see the company you basically volunteer for day in and day out be 'trashed' by a few people who probably shouldn't even be posting on a GM BIASED board anyway. So cut the guy some slack, ehh?

[Northstar]

Only here will you find somebody saying that the GTO was a success. Even Bob Lutz admits it was well intentioned but a failure---definitely from an economic perspective. While it isn't a bad car, the rebirth of the GTO was a 'just miss' product that had the misfortune of being introed while Chrysler was bringing back interesting RWD machines. Chrylser took heritage names and ideas and controversy and made it work (to a large extent)...GM just missed. GTO provided no halo for Pontiac & was a tough sell---not good.

The G8 has a better shot, but selling 30k of them when the Bonnie & GP are either one foot in the grave or gone is nothing to write home about.

Now, as for your threats to ban this poor guy/girl:

Do you realize how out of touch your fantasy about the GTO makes you sound? And threatening to ban a guy over his opinion is LOW.

Why not just get it over with and ban all dissent? That's how many of you guys have managed to chase off anyone with a defensible position that didn't jibe with your party line--and it ruins the site, man.

I got news for you, dude- GM is BETTER today because somebody finally spoke up and said that the sh!t they were pushing wasn't going to do it...Mr. Lutz was the voice of dissent and doubt in the GM airspace---so when you take someone's legitimate criticism and threaten them with it, you look like a bully and a loser--both of which probably aren't too far off.

Fine, don't believe me about the GTO. Maybe you'll believe guionM, but I doubt it:

GM got raked over the fire with the GTO. The car was good. Even almost great. It was quicker than any GTO in history. It was faster than any GTO ever was. It was even priced on par with where the historic GTO was priced in the marketplace. It was a high level GT, just as the GTO was. And finally, it looked just like every other Pontiac model in the showroom, just like all GTOs before it...... yet the final point was the center of all complaints and venom directed at it.

The issue centered on the fact that there was a perception that a car with a historic name should look like a throwback to that historic time, regardless as to the actual facts. It should look like nothing else on the showroom floor. It should have it's own look. And, finally...... it should be made in America.

General Motors is nothing if it doesn't learn from mistakes. Even though Pontiac dealers did as much to destroy the prospect of sales as anything else, the one thing GM has control over is how a vehicle looks. But at the same time, the GTO actually sold well. It easily outstripped sales of another premium coupe, the Mustang Cobra. But bad controversy has a habit of eclipsing the good in things. Even though the GTO was actually a success, it's image is that it failed.

Selling 30k G8s is pretty good for Pontiac if you actually think for a second and do 2 minutes of research. The GP was on pace for less than 20k retail sales for the year through 6 months. For it's replacement to do 30k retail sales would be a 50% increase. Since when is a 50% increase nothing to write home about?

My opinion of smk is shared by many others, and if you would read all of his posts you would see how out of touch he is. The CTS isn't acceptable because it runs 0-60 in 5.8 instead of 5.5. I'd like to see him sit in a car that runs a 5.5 and then a car that runs a 5.8 and be able to tell the difference.

[Drew Dowdell]

Let's get back on track to discussing GM sales, not the inferiority of the GTO, CTS, F-22, and God vis a vis the 3-Series.

OMG, the 3-series would soooo out handle God.