GM working on 7-/8-speed transmissions

[Flybrian]

GM: Eight-Speeds on the Way
New gearboxes being studied

by Joseph Szczesny | (2007-10-15) | Link to Original Article @ TCC

General Motors isn't giving away any of the specifics just yet, but it does have a seven- and even an eight-speed automatic transmission tucked away in its product development cycle.

Jim Lanzon, executive director of GM Powertrain's Transmission Engineering, acknowledged last week GM is looking at the transmissions that have begun showing up on luxury models such as the BMW M5.

"I can't give away any new product news but we're looking at everything," he said.

One of the issues GM is wrestling with now is whether a seven- or eight-speed transmission will produce the kind of gains in fuel economy that would justify the cost of engineering them into a vehicle, Lanzon said.

"There is more to making a seven- or eight-speed transmission than adding more modules. You've got to be concerned about the parasitic losses that neutralize the fuel-economy gains," he said.

Lanzon emphasized GM already has the skills needed to put a seven-speed or eight-speed transmission into production very quickly and at relatively low cost. In the past four years, GM, with the aid of computerized tools, has launched nine new six-speed transmission models. In the past, GM would spend a decade developing three or four new transmissions.

The new technology utilized by GM has shaved as much as six months and $15 million from the typical development of a transmission, Lanzon said. The technology also saved the company more than $100 million during the latest development cycle, which has put six-speed transmission in everything from the Chevrolet Corvette to mid-size crossover vehicles, he said.

The technology also has helped boost the quality and dependability of the new units, which have had few changes, Lanzon said. Not only are the costs down, but the quality has improved, he said.

Lanzon said GM's transmission engineers are using sophisticated math modeling, among other advanced tools, to not only design the transmission components, but also to predict and test their reliability, analyzing functions such as oil pressure and flow, lubrication distribution and shift quality.

[Drew Dowdell]

much more than 6 speeds and you're better off spending development money on CVTs.

Even under normal driving conditions, the tach on my 5-speed CTS only swings about 500rpm.

[bowtie_dude]

So we're looking at a slow roll-out starting in 2020 and full line availability in 2025? Please, as slow as GM Powertrain is with rolling out engines and transmissions, telling us they have these in development is nearly pointless.

[Satty]

much more than 6 speeds and you're better off spending development money on CVTs.

Eventually someone is going to come out with a CVT that doesn't suck and people will reap the benefits. I hope.

[Z-06]

One of the issues GM is wrestling with now is whether a seven- or eight-speed transmission will produce the kind of gains in fuel economy that would justify the cost of engineering them into a vehicle, Lanzon said.

"One of the issues GM is wrestling with now is whether a seven- or eight-speed transmission will produce the kind of gains in fuel economy that would justify the cost of engineering them into a vehicle, Lanzon said.

Lanzon emphasized GM already has the skills needed to put a seven-speed or eight-speed transmission into production very quickly and at relatively low cost. In the past four years, GM, with the aid of computerized tools, has launched nine new six-speed transmission models. In the past, GM would spend a decade developing three or four new transmissions.

Those statements seem to be contradictory in a broader sense. Most of the cost associated is in the development of a system and then a little in the adaptation or "engineering" of the transmission to a particular vehicle. Which makes me say, "Either bring it out or don't tell us about it."

So we're looking at a slow roll-out starting in 2020 and full line availability in 2025? Please, as slow as GM Powertrain is with rolling out engines and transmissions, telling us they have these in development is nearly pointless.

Yeah that may probably happen. GM needs to speed up their inception to production time. It seems like they get a woman pregnant but she takes 27 months to deliver the baby, more like a whale pregnancy.

[Drew Dowdell]

The current 6-speeds went into development in 2003 and rolled out in the Aura, GMT-900 SUVs, STS and XLR in '06, Lambdas Malibu and CTS in '07.

It's just me, but it looks like they usually wait for a model/platform redesign before they put the 6-speed in.... though I don't know what year was the first year for the G6 with 6A. 3-5 years turn around time isn't bad for something as complicated as a transmission.

[bowtie_dude]

My problem is that they still have 4-spd transmissions in their vehicles. If they can't put a 6-spd in every vehicle (mid-size and larger), fine. But it standard transmission should at least be a 5-spd in every vehicle 2 years ago.

What kills me about GM is that they don't realize how late to the party they are and when they do stuff like the above, they wear a crap-eating grin and pat themselves on the back like they've done something special. Yet they're still putting those worthless push-rod V6s in their vehicles, they're still putting 4-spds in their large cars/SUVs and they still don't understand why OFFERING a navigation system in their vehicles is important.

[Z-06]

My problem is that they still have 4-spd transmissions in their vehicles. If they can't put a 6-spd in every vehicle (mid-size and larger), fine. But it standard transmission should at least be a 5-spd in every vehicle 2 years ago.

What kills me about GM is that they don't realize how late to the party they are and when they do stuff like the above, they wear a crap-eating grin and pat themselves on the back like they've done something special. Yet they're still putting those worthless push-rod V6s in their vehicles, they're still putting 4-spds in their large cars/SUVs and they still don't understand why OFFERING a navigation system in their vehicles is important.

Yeah I was one of the major supporters of GM being slow in rolling 6-speeds in GMT 900's. But now it is the third MY when they "may" finally get it in all of them. Not good. Yeah you make close to a million vehicles, but please three years pushing into a vehicle design to introduce something across the line is going overboard. With four speeds, W-bodies, 4.3l, 3.5l V-6 they are milking a long dead cow.

[ponchoman49]

Yeah and we can expect to see these 7 and 8 speed trannys out in the year 2525 if man is still alive.

[bowtie_dude]

Yeah and we can expect to see these 7 and 8 speed trannys out in the year 2525 if man is still alive.

Haha, beat you to it.

[smk4565]

Hopefully they get them on the market semi fast. But they do need to get rid of all the 4 speeds first, even the cobalt and Aveo should get at least a 5 speed auto. The GMT900s need a six speed. Cadillac is going to need 7 or 8 if they want to keep up with the market. The next 5-series and 7-series will be 8-speed automatic.

I hope they act fast, Cadillac is a follower right now, and Lexus and BMW are dictating what goes in the market, and setting the standards. Even with an 8 speed automatic on a Cadillac (in 2010 or so), they will just be equaling what Lexus did on the 2007 LS. It would be nice for once for Lexus or BMW to be chasing Cadillac, but I am thinking that is becoming more and more unlikely.

[siegen]

The gear split on a 6 speed auto is already tight enough, I don't think more gears is going to help at all, unless they put it into the Corvette or other vehicle capable of 200mph+. Otherwise it's just bragging rights. I think the money could be better spent in engine tech to increase fuel economy.

[Flybrian]

I hope they act fast, Cadillac is a follower right now, and Lexus and BMW are dictating what goes in the market, and setting the standards. Even with an 8 speed automatic on a Cadillac (in 2010 or so), they will just be equaling what Lexus did on the 2007 LS. It would be nice for once for Lexus or BMW to be chasing Cadillac, but I am thinking that is becoming more and more unlikely.

Please tell me what an 8-speed transmission in the LSwhatever represents besides a weak dick-measuring contest.

[regfootball]

i think 6 speed is enough, but we could use a DSG type tranny.

[smk4565]

Bowtie Dude is right, GM is really late to the party and they don't even realize it. They don't realize they don't have a choice with what they make anymore, they have to build what others are doing. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes have 7-8 speed so Cadillac must do it. Accord and Camry are all DOHC so the Malibu has to be. They are chasing the trends and standards set by others. I don't remember the last time Honda, Toyota, or BMW saw some thing GM did and said, wow we have to copy that. Aside from making a pickup truck maybe. Of course Toyota went with 381 hp and 6 speed automatic vs the Silverado's 315 hp and 4-speed, at least the Silverado is really good in so many other areas to make up for it.

[Drew Dowdell]

My problem is that they still have 4-spd transmissions in their vehicles. If they can't put a 6-spd in every vehicle (mid-size and larger), fine. But it standard transmission should at least be a 5-spd in every vehicle 2 years ago.

What kills me about GM is that they don't realize how late to the party they are and when they do stuff like the above, they wear a crap-eating grin and pat themselves on the back like they've done something special. Yet they're still putting those worthless push-rod V6s in their vehicles, they're still putting 4-spds in their large cars/SUVs and they still don't understand why OFFERING a navigation system in their vehicles is important.

The Cobalt, W-bodies, and G-bodies were too far along or too old to get the 6-speed..... and let's be realistic here, does anyone really think that putting a 6-speed in the Grand Prix, LaCross, Impala, Lucerne or DTS would have improved sales? Lucerne is already outselling everything in it's class except the 300, would putting a 6-speed in there mean that it outsells the 300?

No, as long as GM continues to put the new transmissions into it's new models, I have no problem with the method of their rollouts. All of the models that currently have only a 4-speed available are due to be replaced in the next 2.5 years. Then you can start harping on GM for still offering "only" 5 speeds.

As for them doing something special... they've put a 6-speed auto in a mid priced family car and have it NOT cough up two of it's gears. That is "Moving Forward"

[Drew Dowdell]

The only way you *really* need and 8 speed is if you're adding a gear ratio on either end of the spectrum. If you're taking the same spectrum of gear ratios and just slicing it up more frequently, you're not really improving much.

If GM does an 8 speed, I'd really like to see them keep the first 6 gears the same as they are now, but label 6th as low overdrive, 7th as medium overdrive, and 8th as high overdrive. Most of GM's engines are good for low rpm torque, so having a 3.6 liter V6 cruise along at 80mph turning 1500rpm would be pretty sweet.

[smk4565]

Please tell me what an 8-speed transmission in the LSwhatever represents besides a weak dick-measuring contest.

Since it was the first 8 speed automatic in a car, it makes Lexus look like the technology leader. The LS460 gets 16/24 mpg which edges the 15/24 from the STS with 60 fewer hp, it beats the BMW 750i also, so the transmission must help in some fashion. It is likely that the 8 speed offers almost no advantage over a 7 speed, and only marginal over a 6 speed, but it is perception. People see 8 speed or 400 hp and they want that more than 6 speed and 320 hp.

The 5-series is getting an 8-speed, so if the CTS is a 5-series competitor, they will need an 8 speed also, otherwise there are in the Acura, Lincoln, Volvo luxury tier, which are all going more towards a premium brand, not a luxury brand.

I am just saying GM has to keep up with the market, whether it makes total sense or not. They neglected mid size sedans for years, now the Malibu is 100,000s of sales behind the Accord and Camry. They neglected minivans and didn't match what Honda was doing, now they are down to 1 bad minivan in it's final model year.

Edited October 16, 2007 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

Since it was the first 8 speed automatic in a car, it makes Lexus look like the technology leader. The LS460 gets 16/24 mpg which edges the 15/24 from the STS with 60 fewer hp, it beats the BMW 750i also, so the transmission must help in some fashion. It is likely that the 8 speed offers almost no advantage over a 7 speed, and only marginal over a 6 speed, but it is perception. People see 8 speed or 400 hp and they want that more than 6 speed and 320 hp.

The 5-series is getting an 8-speed, so if the CTS is a 5-series competitor, they will need an 8 speed also, otherwise there are in the Acura, Lincoln, Volvo luxury tier, which are all going more towards a premium brand, not a luxury brand.

5-series also costs a good 10k-15k more. This will only worsen as the dollar falls.

[drew770]

Gees, I am glad GM woke up and realized that they need to get up to speed and match BMW, Mercedes and Lexus!!!

[pow]

i think 6 speed is enough, but we could use a DSG type tranny.

Agreed. Don't automatics all have parasitic drivetrain losses from the torque converter or whatever? DSGs don't have that, and since gear changes are immediate, additional gears won't be felt. VW is making a 7-speed DSG, because the current 6-speed still isn't enough for diesels, which run out of revs at 4K rpm.

[balthazar]

>>"Of course Toyota went with 381 hp, 401 torque and 6 speed automatic vs the Silverado's 365 hp, 660 torque and the Alison 6-speed, but at least the turdra offers huge incentives to make up for it."<<

FIXED.

BTW- the Silverado standard gas 6.0L offers 353 HP, not 315. Optional Sierra gas engine offers 403 HP & 417 torque. toyoda optionally offers.... 271 hp. Oh what a feeling...

[bowtie_dude]

The HO 6.2L needs to be offered in both full-size trucks.

[thegriffon]

My problem is that they still have 4-spd transmissions in their vehicles. …

So does Toyota. And Honda is still using 5-speeds when everyone else is rolling out 6-speeds. GM is adding capacity to the 6-speed transmission production as fast as it can afford to. The Malibu's new 4-cylinder 6-speed will be produced in NA as well as Korea, and production is being expanded for the larger 6-speeds as well.

[thegriffon]

much more than 6 speeds and you're better off spending development money on CVTs.

Even under normal driving conditions, the tach on my 5-speed CTS only swings about 500rpm.

6-speed autos are already achieving better fuel-economy than CVTs, and in some cases, better than 6-speed manuals in the same vehicle.

[cletus8269]

i also am among those who wonder why shift past 6... my colorado churns 2200 on the interstate at 85-90mph. 5th would be nice but in a smaller engine wouldnt you just be going 4-5-6...7....8...7...8... is there really enough torque to justify 7 and 8?

[Drew Dowdell]

6-speed autos are already achieving better fuel-economy than CVTs, and in some cases, better than 6-speed manuals in the same vehicle.

Not that I don't believe you.... but what examples do you have?

[Drew Dowdell]

i also am among those who wonder why shift past 6... my colorado churns 2200 on the interstate at 85-90mph. 5th would be nice but in a smaller engine wouldnt you just be going 4-5-6...7....8...7...8... is there really enough torque to justify 7 and 8?

These 7 and 8 speeds don't add gears much over the existing overdrive ratios. It just adds more gears between 1st and top gear.

[smk4565]

5-series also costs a good 10k-15k more. This will only worsen as the dollar falls.

GM seems to be the one that compares the CTS to the 5-series, I think the CTS should be compared to the 3-series and deal with the fact that is in no way can match the 335i in performance. Cadillac has no 5-series competitor or Lexus LS460 or Mercedes S-class competitor. What Cadillac has is 3 sedans that cost about $45,000, and nothing people are eager to drop $60-100k on. What they need is a small car, and a car people will drop $60-100k on. The 3-series was popular 12-15 years ago, I don't know why they are still waiting to make a small luxury car. GM has some weird belief that size and price must go up together, and Cadillacs must be big since they are luxury cars.

[cletus8269]

These 7 and 8 speeds don't add gears much over the existing overdrive ratios. It just adds more gears between 1st and top gear.

double and tripple overdrive in a sense then.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM seems to be the one that compares the CTS to the 5-series, I think the CTS should be compared to the 3-series and deal with the fact that is in no way can match the 335i in performance. Cadillac has no 5-series competitor or Lexus LS460 or Mercedes S-class competitor. What Cadillac has is 3 sedans that cost about $45,000, and nothing people are eager to drop $60-100k on. What they need is a small car, and a car people will drop $60-100k on. The 3-series was popular 12-15 years ago, I don't know why they are still waiting to make a small luxury car. GM has some weird belief that size and price must go up together, and Cadillacs must be big since they are luxury cars.

Ya know, it's a lot easier to put these penis waving transmissions when you can charge 15k more for them. The new CTS is so close to the 5-series at this point saving that amount of money on just a transmission makes it a huge bargain.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Shantanu]

GM already is behind if they're "studying" 7 and 8 speed transmissions, while the competition is already manufacturing cars with them. Even if these tranmissions were greenlighted tomorrow, it would take at least 3 and probably more like 4-5 years before they would come out in cars. Once again GM is behind.

I was reading Consumer Reports reviews of mid-size SUV's and I was amazed that every other competitor also has 6 speed transmissions. This leaves GM's much touted 6 speed transmission in the Saturn Outlook as nothing to write home about.

[PurdueGuy]

Frankly, I'm glad GM is "behind" on this. This would be ranked among the most STUPID things it could have been worrying about in the last 5 years. As others have said, this is more about bragging rights than real functionality. I could see GM doing this as an option in very-high-end Caddys just to appease those that have to have the highest number of (fill in the blank), but that's about it.

[thegriffon]

Not that I don't believe you.... but what examples do you have?

BMW 630i 7.9 L/100 km manual, 7.7 L/100 km auto, BMW 650i 11.7 l/100 km manual, 10.5 auto

BMW 125i 8.1 l/100 km manual, 8.1 l/100 km auto (auto better in city 11.6 v 11.7 L)

Mercedes' 7-speed auto also gets better fuel economy than the 6-speed manual in most (but not all) models.

More surprisingly, Honda's 5-speed autos sometimes get better economy than the equivalent 5-speed manual.

As for the CVT, the 6-speed Aisin auto in the Five Hundred got better fuel economy than the Ford-ZF CVT in the same model. Of course if you don't have a really good 6-sped auto suited to your engine choice, then you may have to make do with a CVT.

Oh, and the few models with both DSG and a normal 6-speed manual, get worse economy than a straight 6-speed manual. Where there is an advantage to the DSG it's in the city.

[thegriffon]

Not that I don't believe you.... but what examples do you have?

BMW 630i 7.9 L/100 km manual, 7.7 L/100 km auto, BMW 650i 11.7 l/100 km manual, 10.5 auto

BMW 125i 8.1 l/100 km manual, 8.1 l/100 km auto (auto better in city 11.6 v 11.7 L)

Mercedes' 7-speed auto also gets better fuel economy than the 6-speed manual in most (but not all) models.

More surprisingly, Honda's 5-speed autos sometimes get better economy than the equivalent 5-speed manual.

As for the CVT, the 6-speed Aisin auto in the Five Hundred got better fuel economy than the Ford-ZF CVT in the same model. Of course if you don't have a really good 6-sped auto suited to your engine choice, then you may have to make do with a CVT.

Oh, and the few models with both DSG and a normal 6-speed manual, get worse economy than a straight 6-speed manual. Where there is an advantage to the DSG it's in the city.

[smk4565]

Ya know, it's a lot easier to put these penis waving transmissions when you can charge 15k more for them. The new CTS is so close to the 5-series at this point saving that amount of money on just a transmission makes it a huge bargain.

I don't think the CTS is close at all to the 5-series. I just sat in an 08 CTS over the weekend at an event one of the dealers did. I sat in a $48,000 model and it had 2 way power lumbar and an 8 way power seat. My 01 Aurora has 8 way and 4 way lumbar, how can the CTS not at least have that. The 5-series offers a 20 way seat, and you can pull out the lower portion of the headrest and wrap it around your neck like an airplane pillow. Their seats are unmatched, not by Lexus or anyone else. The 5-series has a tool kit, first aid kit, rechargeable flashlight in glove compartment. The 5-series has a V8 (and a V10), CTS does not. 5-er 13 speaker 7.1 surround, CTS 10 speaker 5.1. The 535xi is 5.4 seconds 0-60 (550i is 5.2) the CTS is in the 6.5 second range with awd. And the 5-series is in it's 5th model year, with a very mild refresh this year with a new engine choice.

The CTS matches up great against a MKZ, TL, G35 might be a little sportier, but is not as luxurious, it is better than a fair amount of cars, but it is not in the league of a 5-series or E-class.

[pow]

>>"Of course Toyota went with 381 hp, 401 torque and 6 speed automatic vs the Silverado's 365 hp, 660 torque and the Alison 6-speed, but at least the turdra offers huge incentives to make up for it."<<

FIXED.

BTW- the Silverado standard gas 6.0L offers 353 HP, not 315. Optional Sierra gas engine offers 403 HP & 417 torque. toyoda optionally offers.... 271 hp. Oh what a feeling...

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Turdra goes up against the Silverado 1500, which does have a 367 hp, 375 lb-ft 6.0L/four-speed, but that's optional, not standard. Chevy additionally offers 195, 295, and 315 on the 1500. There's no "half-ton" diesel from any brand.

GMC does offer a 403 hp 6.2/six-speed half-ton, but only on the $39K Denali. Tundra's 5.7 starts at $24K, and Silverado 1500's 6.0 starts at $29K.

[cad1cts]

Its about time...this is great news I think

[Z-06]

GMC does offer a 403 hp 6.2/six-speed half-ton, but only on the $39K Denali. Tundra's 5.7 starts at $24K, and Silverado 1500's 6.0 starts at $29K.

That is because GM does not have the 6.0l in the Regular Cab Configuration, while the Turd does, if you compare the extended cab versions of both, the Turd starts at $31.5K. I never understood GM's strategy of not putting the bigger V-8 in a regular cab truck.

[pow]

That is because GM does not have the 6.0l in the Regular Cab Configuration, while the Turd does, if you compare the extended cab versions of both, the Turd starts at $31.5K. I never understood GM's strategy of not putting the bigger V-8 in a regular cab truck.

Extended cab, standard bed Turd 2WD 5.7 starts at $26.7K.

[siegen]

And Honda is still using 5-speeds when everyone else is rolling out 6-speeds.

Except GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota are still using 4-speeds in many of their volume sellers.

Not sure why Honda hasn't offered a 6 speed yet, at least on Acura models, some of which could really use it.

[cletus8269]

I don't think the CTS is close at all to the 5-series. I just sat in an 08 CTS over the weekend at an event one of the dealers did. I sat in a $48,000 model and it had 2 way power lumbar and an 8 way power seat. My 01 Aurora has 8 way and 4 way lumbar, how can the CTS not at least have that. The 5-series offers a 20 way seat, and you can pull out the lower portion of the headrest and wrap it around your neck like an airplane pillow. Their seats are unmatched, not by Lexus or anyone else. The 5-series has a tool kit, first aid kit, rechargeable flashlight in glove compartment. The 5-series has a V8 (and a V10), CTS does not. 5-er 13 speaker 7.1 surround, CTS 10 speaker 5.1. The 535xi is 5.4 seconds 0-60 (550i is 5.2) the CTS is in the 6.5 second range with awd. And the 5-series is in it's 5th model year, with a very mild refresh this year with a new engine choice.

The CTS matches up great against a MKZ, TL, G35 might be a little sportier, but is not as luxurious, it is better than a fair amount of cars, but it is not in the league of a 5-series or E-class.

maybe i'm behind the times, but the last time i thought about buying a car i didnt put into factor it wasnt a 20 way power seat... but i dont care about power this and that because i see that as 20 different ways that seat can stop working. pillow in the seat? 7.1 surround? thats things i would look for in a living room not my car. i am probably speaking for myself and i know these are 45-55K dollar cars but i know that when it comes to me... who gives a $h*t about a seat.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think the CTS is close at all to the 5-series. I just sat in an 08 CTS over the weekend at an event one of the dealers did. I sat in a $48,000 model and it had 2 way power lumbar and an 8 way power seat. My 01 Aurora has 8 way and 4 way lumbar, how can the CTS not at least have that. The 5-series offers a 20 way seat, and you can pull out the lower portion of the headrest and wrap it around your neck like an airplane pillow. Their seats are unmatched, not by Lexus or anyone else. The 5-series has a tool kit, first aid kit, rechargeable flashlight in glove compartment. The 5-series has a V8 (and a V10), CTS does not. 5-er 13 speaker 7.1 surround, CTS 10 speaker 5.1. The 535xi is 5.4 seconds 0-60 (550i is 5.2) the CTS is in the 6.5 second range with awd. And the 5-series is in it's 5th model year, with a very mild refresh this year with a new engine choice.

The CTS matches up great against a MKZ, TL, G35 might be a little sportier, but is not as luxurious, it is better than a fair amount of cars, but it is not in the league of a 5-series or E-class.

Why do you keep saying that the CTS does not have a V8? The CTS in fact famously has a V8.

I like how you cherry picked your comparisons between the CTS and the 5er. Base price for the 535xi is 51k. The absolute top of the CTS line I can build on Cars Direct is 47.5k. However you can get a CTS 3.6DI AWD for about 34k msrp. This is interesting because a 528xi is a full $8k more and would get positively spanked by the Caddy in terms of performance. Again interestingly, the only way to get the 20-way power seats is to select options that push the 535xi over the $55k mark.

In fact, in order to match the most loaded CTS V6 in price you have to opt for the 528xi with no leather <leatherette is not leather>, no Nav, 230hp, base stereo, no heated seats, 17 inch wheels <CTS comes with 18s at this price>, No satellite radio, No DVD entertainment system.... All that for $47.5k and it'd still get spanked by the better performing, better equipped CTS at the same price.

The moment you pass the $51k mark at BMW I'm into CTS-V category. Bringing a 535i up against the CTS-V is like bringing a pistol to a tank fight.

But I'm sure that blue and white rondel on the hood makes the car feel more luxurious.

[smk4565]

Why do you keep saying that the CTS does not have a V8? The CTS in fact famously has a V8.

I like how you cherry picked your comparisons between the CTS and the 5er. Base price for the 535xi is 51k. The absolute top of the CTS line I can build on Cars Direct is 47.5k. However you can get a CTS 3.6DI AWD for about 34k msrp. This is interesting because a 528xi is a full $8k more and would get positively spanked by the Caddy in terms of performance. Again interestingly, the only way to get the 20-way power seats is to select options that push the 535xi over the $55k mark.

In fact, in order to match the most loaded CTS V6 in price you have to opt for the 528xi with no leather <leatherette is not leather>, no Nav, 230hp, base stereo, no heated seats, 17 inch wheels <CTS comes with 18s at this price>, No satellite radio, No DVD entertainment system.... All that for $47.5k and it'd still get spanked by the better performing, better equipped CTS at the same price.

The moment you pass the $51k mark at BMW I'm into CTS-V category. Bringing a 535i up against the CTS-V is like bringing a pistol to a tank fight.

But I'm sure that blue and white rondel on the hood makes the car feel more luxurious.

This is why the CTS shouldn't be compared to a 5-series, the price gaps are big. I looked at a CTS awd a few days ago at the dealer, it was $48,400 on the sticker, I assume that is every option. And oddly enough, there was no V8, 2008 model there, wonder why. The 550i can run up near $70,000, the portly and dated STS is the car to compare to the 5-series. The CTS is a good entry level car, it has some flaws, but most cars in that price class do.

For less than $48,000 one could get a Chrysler 300 SRT-8, that can crush the CTS V6 in performance, does that mean it is a better car? It is the same when comparing a CTS-V to the 550i. The 550i beats it in interior and features, the CTS-V offers more performance. It will be interesting to see how good the 555i is and what happens when the M5 gets a twin turbo V10. Meanwhile Cadillac will be stuck with a pushrod as their top engine, nice., Pontiac and Dodge/Chrysler do it, Cadillac should want to be in that elite class.

Cadillac has better design than the Germans, I don't see why they can't use better materials (there is a lot of plastic inside and out on the CTS) and build a legit competitor in various classes, rather than 1 midsize, low price luxury car and a pair of one foot in the grave, also rans.

[Drew Dowdell]

This is why the CTS shouldn't be compared to a 5-series, the price gaps are big. I looked at a CTS awd a few days ago at the dealer, it was $48,400 on the sticker, I assume that is every option. And oddly enough, there was no V8, 2008 model there, wonder why. The 550i can run up near $70,000, the portly and dated STS is the car to compare to the 5-series. The CTS is a good entry level car, it has some flaws, but most cars in that price class do.

For less than $48,000 one could get a Chrysler 300 SRT-8, that can crush the CTS V6 in performance, does that mean it is a better car? It is the same when comparing a CTS-V to the 550i. The 550i beats it in interior and features, the CTS-V offers more performance. It will be interesting to see how good the 555i is and what happens when the M5 gets a twin turbo V10. Meanwhile Cadillac will be stuck with a pushrod as their top engine, nice., Pontiac and Dodge/Chrysler do it, Cadillac should want to be in that elite class.

Cadillac has better design than the Germans, I don't see why they can't use better materials (there is a lot of plastic inside and out on the CTS) and build a legit competitor in various classes, rather than 1 midsize, low price luxury car and a pair of one foot in the grave, also rans.

No the STS is NOT the car to go up against the 5-series. The CTS matches the 5-series in just about every dimension. The CTS is not entry level, it's just the least expensive Cadillac. Cadillac does not have an entry level model... something that will be remedied by the Alpha. The reason there was no V8 model there is because it's not out yet. CTS production just started. There is nothing wrong with the CTS's interior. It is every bit competitive with the 5er. I've sat in an '08 CTS also and I ride in a 5-series every tuesday on my way to work.

Your hatred for anything pushrod gets automatically written off BTW. I've driven a V and the engine was perfect.

[pow]

CTS = 3-series competitor

STS = 5-series competitor

Cars like the G35, TL, A4, etc are also "midsize", but still considered entry-lux ($35K-$45K). The "V" series is equivalent to BMW's "M"; there's no non-V CTS with a V8, unlike the STS or 550i.

Cadillac's own website lists the A4, 3, IS, C, G35, TL, and ES as competitors to the CTS. Every comparison test I've seen, except for maybe one, compares the CTS with the 3-series.

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh for f@#k sake! The TL has the TSX under it, A4 has A3, G35 is on the small end of the midsize scale and the coupe is listed as a compact.

You wouldn't compare the Lucerne to the 3 series even though they share a similar price range, why does the CTS get lumped in with the 3-series when it's dimensions and equipment meet or exceed the 5-series for most of the model range? The CTS is only a 3-series competitor because the 5er is so f@#king expensive.

If Cadillac priced the CTS in alignment with the 5-series and equipped it with those 20-way power seats which are such a deal breaker for some, you'd be screaming bloody murder!

Cadillac can't win with you people because you sneer at them for offering a 5er at 3er price or you sneer at them when their car priced the same as a 3er doesn't handle as well as the BMW because it's the size of a 5er. Jesus tap dancing christ what do you want from them?!

[smk4565]

No the STS is NOT the car to go up against the 5-series. The CTS matches the 5-series in just about every dimension. The CTS is not entry level, it's just the least expensive Cadillac. Cadillac does not have an entry level model... something that will be remedied by the Alpha. The reason there was no V8 model there is because it's not out yet. CTS production just started. There is nothing wrong with the CTS's interior. It is every bit competitive with the 5er. I've sat in an '08 CTS also and I ride in a 5-series every tuesday on my way to work.

Your hatred for anything pushrod gets automatically written off BTW. I've driven a V and the engine was perfect.

My car has a DOHC V8, it is better than any pushrod, much quieter and smoother. The CTS is an entry level car, it is $32,000, that is less than a C-class or 3-series base model. $42,000 is where luxury tax starts. Cadillac's dimensions are just all wrong. $50,000 is middle luxury, an E-class is $51,000 base. An S-class is $89,000 base, although many other upper end sedans start in the $75-80k range. Cadillac's most expensive sedan bases at $43,000. There is nothing wrong with the CTS's interior when compared to other entry level cars like the TL, G35, etc. And their V8 model will be a pushrod, Mercedes and BMW drivers are not going to trade their car in on. Cadillac is hoping that a Charger or Mustang driver that got a pay raise will come buy their loud, rough, pushrod, 1970s muscle car engine and think it is a fitting for a luxury car.

I admit I hate pushrods, I owned one, I'd never buy one again. Luckily for me there are 10 other luxury brands that offer all DOHC, so not like I'll have a hard time finding a car.

[thegriffon]

CTS = 3-series competitor

STS = 5-series competitor

Cars like the G35, TL, A4, etc are also "midsize", but still considered entry-lux ($35K-$45K). The "V" series is equivalent to BMW's "M"; there's no non-V CTS with a V8, unlike the STS or 550i.

Cadillac's own website lists the A4, 3, IS, C, G35, TL, and ES as competitors to the CTS. Every comparison test I've seen, except for maybe one, compares the CTS with the 3-series.

The current A4 is 3-series sized. The new A4 is midsized.

[thegriffon]

Oh, and you can expect this to be the last C Cadillac to be this cheap. The next generation (c2012) is almost certain to go head to head with the 5-series, helped by major changes for the B- and D-series just before this.