How does it feel?

[dimitri0917]

Not to start a riot or anything but I've kinda always wondered this.

Have you known it to upset a Jewish person to see the Nazi flag?

Only reason I ask is because in my town, quite a few people wave around the Confederate flag (MD's kinda Northerly to me, go figure) and lots of people I know get pissed off when they see it. It annoys me but never gets me angry. It's kinda like a flag of a failed nation to me, and I can get over the negative connotations. I mean, the oppression is sad and stuff, but if it's a sign of the culture that some southern people still hold dear, it's OK to me and I actually respect it.

So what about Jewish people? Since not a lot of German people feel that the swastika embodies the German culture anymore, do they associate it more with the oppression side of things?

Also for people that are neither Jewish nor African-American, how does either symbol make you feel? What about the hammer and sickle and stuff? Does that ruffle up the Senator McCarthy in you?

This is not meant at all to be argumentative, and I hope it doesn't turn to that, I'm just wondering...

[Camino LS6]

Let's keep this one civil, everyone!

The questions are valid and the request made with class, so let's all respond in kind.

That said, answer away!

[vonVeezelsnider]

That said, I know only a few Jewish people, most of whom don't really give a thought about the Nazi Flag, but then again, they aren't really passionate about their cultures... As for the Confederate flag, there was a flap a while back about a museum exhibit that revolved around that flag, but I don't have much to say on that subject seeing as I'm Canadian...

[DetroitNut90]

Hitler led a campaign of such voracious hate that I don't blame anyone for taking offense to that flag. As a gay of 75%German descent, I do take some offense to that flag, but this is the first time I've actually paused to consider it in a while.

Dimitri, what part of the state are you in? Maybe it's because the DC Metro area is predominantly black (and I don't know of any black person who would wave a Dixie flag), but I can only recall one, maybe two instances of seeing a Confederate flag being displayed.

[daves87rs]

I guess it would be kinda mixed......

Most that I know just find it annoying more than anything....

Though a friend of mine keeps a open mind open aboout it....he says sometimes people should see it, as reminder of the past, so that we can better the future for others.....he is quite open in his faith.....

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not jewish, but if I see the nazi flag being presented in a way as to demonstrate the nazi party's intent... then yes I get offended.

I get offended whenever I see irrational hatred being spewed at anyone, even if I'm not the target.

[Farkas]

All the "hicks" at my school think it's cool to drape the stars and bars all over their trucks. It really doesn't bother me, just because none of them could actually spell Confederate or tell you when the Civil war was fought. As for the Nazi flag, my grandparents fled Poland in the late 30's because of the Nazi's, so I would have no qualms in voicing my displeasure with the display of that flag.

I get offended whenever I see irrational hatred being spewed at anyone, even if I'm not the target.

+1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Obviously I fly the confederate flag quite a bit. That's because it is my heritage and I like to honor the many fine men both black and white who died to unite this country. I mean no disrespect to any race or religion.

It really bothers me that the KKK and dumb rednecks alike have, for many, ruined what the confederate flag represents. And I look forward to a day (that will hopefully come) in which the 'klan' is dead and people only see the flag for the history it represents.

Now, with that in mind; the recent controversy in South Carolina is a bit of a different story. For those of you who don't know, the confederate flag used to fly above the SC house along with the SC flag. That offended a lot of people and the house offered to move the flag to a civil war monument on the premises instead. A lot of people didn't like that idea either and I'm not sure what the final outcome was. I'm of the opinion that the confederate flag, eventhough I do support it should not fly above the SC house simply because it's still too controversial to be in that position. However, I do think it should be flown on the premises above the civil war monument because it is a symbol of that history.

As for the Nazi flag... That's a very good question, one that I've never thought about... Am I comfortable with the Nazi flag being flown? Not really, but then that would mark me as sort of a hypocrit given my support for the confederate flag. But then, eventhough Hitler was a warped leader and horrible things happened, I'm sure not every German that fought and died for his/her country shared that same mindset or way of thinking.

I guess it's just based on personal judgement.

P.S. Regarding the confederate flag; it's pretty obvious what manner it's being flown in by the kind of person displaying it. I know that's using stereotypes, but by in large stereotypes are usually accurate despite being positive or negative.

Edited October 9, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[trinacriabob]

Don't know what to say. Growing up on the westside of LA, I had several Jewish friends. I think that they view the Holocaust as something they have gotten past and have overcome as a people. I have never spoken to anyone who showed anger, which surprises me. The weirdest thing was when I was in college and used to work part time in the accounting department of a hospital...I was speaking to this always-friendly elderly lady, Jewish and with some kind of Eastern European accent, and standing at her desk while she was seated. As she was moving her hands, I noticed what looked like serial numbers near her wrist. I think that the Nazi flag probably brings a chill of sorts but have never had that confirmed by the Jewish people I know. Also, I don't discuss that subject since we usually have other intellectual discourse (most of the Jewish people I knew tend to be intellectual).

I don't know about the confederate flag. Why now is what I ask? It segregates an area of the country from "the whole." Maybe that's what I liked about Atlanta where this wasn't so prevalent and is now even less Southern as it has people from every damn corner of the globe. In fact, one of Atlanta's founding fathers encouraged integration of Northerners into the city after the war to help prop it up. Did you know it billed itself as "the city too busy to hate"? I thought that was cool. I know one thing -- the Southern people I knew when I lived there were certainly nice but tended to hang with other locals while, as a Westerner, all of my friends were transplanted Northeasterners and Floridians.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Is this why you're asking?

Link: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/ti...amp;match=exact

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Is this why you're asking?

Link: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/ti...amp;match=exact

That's just discrimination IMO.

[dimitri0917]

F-O-G, what a great position you have! Its a little messed up that people get angry @ people for simply supporting their heritage in the most peaceful way, by simply flying a flag.

Also, DN90, you would be surprised! I live in Annapolis, arguably the most wealthy and European-Catholic heavy cities in the state, but there are still alot of the bars-n-stars for some reason.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes in Delaware the Stars N Bars fly, even in gated communities. However the further south in Delaware you go, the more you see the flag. I personally think it is a backlash statement against the heavy hand of the Federal government and all its laws that erode personal freedoms.

[balthazar]

Symbols do not bother me. In fact, as an artist, there is a certain fascination in the 'power' & reaction some symbols effect on observers- it's an intriquing study.

I recently heard that (IIRC) a Jewish Anti-Defamation organization officially objected to an arrangement of Navy buildings in CA that were laid out in adjoined 'L' formations.... you guessed it: in the shape of a swastika. Thing of it is; the symbol is not visible from the ground, and the buildings are in a no-fly-over zone, so they are not visible from the air.... we have internet satellite technology to blame for this one. Perhaps the JAD folks are worried that Jewish extra-terrestrials will get offended.

Link: >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20996515/ <<

I'm actually offended by this talk-show idiot: ""I'm concerned about symbolism," he said. "This is not the type of message America needs to be sending to the world."

It's NOT a "message" and it's not "from" America, it's a geometric arrangment. Get over it. $600,000 of our tax money now has to be wasted altering something that's invisible.

[Camino LS6]

Yes in Delaware the Stars N Bars fly, even in gated communities. However the further south in Delaware you go, the more you see the flag. I personally think it is a backlash statement against the heavy hand of the Federal government and all its laws that erode personal freedoms.

Growing up here in PA the Stars and Bars only had a "rebel" connotation - no thought of race even entered into it.

[K.C.]

Obviously I fly the confederate flag quite a bit. That's because it is my heritage and I like to honor the many fine men both black and white who died to unite this country. I mean no disrespect to any race or religion.

It really bothers me that the KKK and dumb rednecks alike have, for many, ruined what the confederate flag represents. And I look forward to a day (that will hopefully come) in which the 'klan' is dead and people only see the flag for the history it represents.

Now, with that in mind; the recent controversy in South Carolina is a bit of a different story. For those of you who don't know, the confederate flag used to fly above the SC house along with the SC flag. That offended a lot of people and the house offered to move the flag to a civil war monument on the premises instead. A lot of people didn't like that idea either and I'm not sure what the final outcome was. I'm of the opinion that the confederate flag, eventhough I do support it should not fly above the SC house simply because it's still too controversial to be in that position. However, I do think it should be flown on the premises above the civil war monument because it is a symbol of that history.

As for the Nazi flag... That's a very good question, one that I've never thought about... Am I comfortable with the Nazi flag being flown? Not really, but then that would mark me as sort of a hypocrit given my support for the confederate flag. But then, eventhough Hitler was a warped leader and horrible things happened, I'm sure not every German that fought and died for his/her country shared that same mindset or way of thinking.

I guess it's just based on personal judgement.

P.S. Regarding the confederate flag; it's pretty obvious what manner it's being flown in by the kind of person displaying it. I know that's using stereotypes, but by in large stereotypes are usually accurate despite being positive or negative.

This is one of the best posts I've ever seen in the lounge. The Confederate Flag is for all southern men and women who grew up in the south, not just white people. There are so many people who misrepresent it and so many who don't really understand what it is about.

[Camino LS6]

A lyrical take on this:

"Look, here comes another one

4 wheel drive

Look there in the window,man

Sakes alive!

That good 'ol boy's a wavin'

the Stars and Bars

It's a red, white and blue flag

But it aint ours

Wave that flag, Hoss!

Wave it high

Do you know what it means

Do you know why

Being a rebel

aint no big deal

but if somebody owned your ass

How would you feel? ..."

[deftonesfan867]

And the government now doesn't own us :AH-HA_wink:

[AxelTheRed]

Uh...I don't really see how this is relevant as I've never seen anyone display a Nazi flag anywhere.

I'm guessing anyone proudly displaying a Nazi flag would get tarred and feathered by their community anyway. It doesn't have the argument of "hertiage" that the Confederate flag does. It just kind of reminds people (or at least me) of a ruthless and hateful regime.

As far as the USSR flag goes...Communism was just a really good idea on paper that never really translated well into the real world thanks to rampant corruption and an abundance of other factors. I don't really see it as a negative thing.

Edited October 9, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[loki]

it's rediculous that the "swastica" building on a military base is taking flack just cause it shows up on google earth, that is ridiculous. showing it in the context of the nazis in a way to promote hate, is wrong, but in a way to promote discussion like in a "nazi themed" art exibit, COULD be ok.

the controversy of a business flying the mexican flag over the stars and stripes should be a, "you're in the USA, don't do that" case closed.

the "stars and bars" has alot of history with it. I don't believe it necessarily symbolizes slavery. i do think a lot of people will display it because "it's cool". nothing against people that display for real reasons, not promoting the society it came from though.

[Camino LS6]

One thing to remember: The Civil War was primarily over economics and states rights, not slavery and opression. Those issues were tangent to the war, not causal.

[the_yellow_dart]

Back in July I went for a walk down by the Toronto waterfront and there was a yacht club with all kinds of world flags flying, probably close to 100 of them. One of them was the Soviet flag. I wonder if that was to make a point or just nobody's maintained the flags since 1991?

[Camino LS6]

Back in July I went for a walk down by the Toronto waterfront and there was a yacht club with all kinds of world flags flying, probably close to 100 of them. One of them was the Soviet flag. I wonder if that was to make a point or just nobody's maintained the flags since 1991?

Odd.

Are you sure it was the Soviet flag? Some of the former Soviet republics have a similar design IIRC.

[enzl]

My heartfelt take is that there's no good reason to display symbols that signify hate, slavery or oppression to a group of people.

I respect the fact that some Southerners view the 'Stars & Bars' as a symbol of their heritage---but I can't see why they in turn can't see that others only see said symbol as negative or derogatory---so why bother using it? Are there really such romantic ideals and inate attachment that it's worth offending a whole subset of this country?

Is is PC thinking gone awry? Maybe--but there are so many more outrageous examples of PCism that don't touch on topics like slavery, bigotry or oppression, so is worth offending some people to provide an incremental pleasure to those that feel the need to display such symbolism? furthermore, I feel like those that display such a loaded symbol inadvertantly lend support to those that use the Confederate flag as a hateful message--which I'd assume is the last thing they'd want their heritage associated with....

[Camino LS6]

The truth is always gray.

[Hudson]

The Confederate flag is typically used, here in the North, by (uninformed) people who think it's "cool" to be controversial or by blatant racists. It has taken a meaning beyond the original Southern Unity idea. It irritates me to see it because of the meaning is has gained. I won't deny anyone their heritage, but any truly color-blind Southerner should be able to see what the flag represents to the public in general.

As for the Nazi flag, a similar thing has followed it. The swastika dates back many centuries and was a symbol of luck to groups like the ancient Egyptians as well as being associated with Hinduism and Buddhism. The unfortunate connection of this symbol with the Nazi party has tarnished, perhaps forever, the history of it. And the same comes with the Confederate flag.

While the Confederacy may have been founded to make a stand on state rights, among those "rights" being defended was the South's laws which discriminated against people of color. Laws and attitudes that still exist in some forms today. And the stand that the Confederate flag is not about racism overlooks that the overwhelming public opinion, especially among non-whites, is that it represents the things that were WRONG with the South. It may be overlooking many good points, but like the swastika, a subset of the full history of the image has tarnished the legacy.

[Camino LS6]

The Confederate flag is typically used, here in the North, by (uninformed) people who think it's "cool" to be controversial or by blatant racists. It has taken a meaning beyond the original Southern Unity idea. It irritates me to see it because of the meaning is has gained. I won't deny anyone their heritage, but any truly color-blind Southerner should be able to see what the flag represents to the public in general.

As for the Nazi flag, a similar thing has followed it. The swastika dates back many centuries and was a symbol of luck to groups like the ancient Egyptians as well as being associated with Hinduism and Buddhism. The unfortunate connection of this symbol with the Nazi party has tarnished, perhaps forever, the history of it. And the same comes with the Confederate flag.

While the Confederacy may have been founded to make a stand on state rights, among those "rights" being defended was the South's laws which discriminated against people of color. Laws and attitudes that still exist in some forms today. And the stand that the Confederate flag is not about racism overlooks that the overwhelming public opinion, especially among non-whites, is that it represents the things that were WRONG with the South. It may be overlooking many good points, but like the swastika, a subset of the full history of the image has tarnished the legacy.

All true.

But the test of our own judgement comes from where we take all of that. If we let the truth of those times and the history, which is our own, be locked away because of the stigma that the flag has been saddled with we cheat ourselves and learn nothing. Clouding the past with the social attitudes of today diminishes the lessons so painfully learned. We should not be ashamed of the Confederacy and its struggle for self-determination. That shame should be reserved for those that instituted segregation and laws designed to marginalize people of color for more than 100 years following the conclusion of the Civil War. It should be heaped upon those that barred blacks from the vote, from education, from lunch counters and buses, from the full measure of citizenship that should have been theirs in 1865. We are all still paying the price for that long injustice, one that can more properly be blamed on the USA than the CSA. We were complacent and allowed a culture of racial hate to supplant the original evil of slavery. Only the brave self-determination of the civil rights movement in the 1960s moved us finally toward what we always should have seen as "self-evident".

So we need that sad old flag, because it has many lessons still to teach us.

[BatmanGTO]

Well I can't really every take offense to any flag.... just because symbols have changed so much over the centuries. I mean come on the Swastika is actually an old Egyptian symbol... Now what I could take offense is the people that hide behind symbols and mean general hate against others.