UAW: Prepare to strike Delphi

[CaddyXLR-V]

Hmm  I can't find one.  Since there is no comparison agreement.  The Delphi Employees will have to Stick to thier guns. And Shut them Down if  Miller does'nt see the error in his ways.
I'll say again Delphi Should be Liquidated. to Fund the pensions. GM will have to buy the plants they are  dependent on. And cut a new post  liquidation deal with the U.A.W.

Likewise Others dependant on Delphi plants.  The Delphi workers have the Entire Industry by the Balls. They just have to squeeze.

It's becoming pretty clear. If Left to Miller, its  a war to death.

[post="28550"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If left to Miller Delphi will prosper. Damn those executives that know how to run a company. What happens after those pensions are paid? No more jobs.
No more jobs in the future. If Delphi dies, there will be a huge shift of jobs out of Michigan. If I lived in Michigan, I would be praying Delphi pulls through this.

[Ghost Dog]

If left to Miller Delphi will prosper. Damn those executives that know how to run a company. What happens after those pensions are paid? No more jobs.
No more jobs in the future. If Delphi dies, there will be a huge shift of jobs out of Michigan. If I lived in Michigan, I would be praying Delphi pulls through this.

[post="28570"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If Miller hands them the gun in December. They will pull the trigger.


I know my Nieghborhood. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif Edited October 14, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[CaddyXLR-V]

If Miller hands them the gun in December. They will pull the trigger.
I know my Nieghborhood. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

[post="28574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If Delphi falls, it will only accellerate the decline of our American industries, along with that, goes the decline of the union.

[regfootball]

if we only had a new Camaro, this would all fix itself.

[regfootball]

:)

[evok]

Hmm  I can't find one.  Since there is no comparison agreement.  The Delphi Employees will have to Stick to thier guns. And Shut them Down if  Miller does'nt see the error in his ways.
I'll say again Delphi Should be Liquidated. to Fund the pensions. GM will have to buy the plants they are  dependent on. And cut a new post  liquidation deal with the U.A.W.

Likewise Others dependant on Delphi plants.  The Delphi workers have the Entire Industry by the Balls. They just have to squeeze.

It's becoming pretty clear. If Left to Miller, its  a war to death.

[post="28550"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sonic: A strike is the wrong move. Though I agree DPH could shut down much of the industry, within 6-12 months the tooling which is owned for the most part by the OEM would be moved and re PPAPed elsewhere.

I think you are jumping the gun on the pensions. Though in the end I believe pensions will be reduced by a small percentage, healther care is the issue that will take center stage. The retirees will have to pick up a more realistic burden. All will not be lost unless there is a strike.

[evok]

But beings how its so popular
:bowdown:
Couldnt have said it better

[post="28566"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your only common thread in your discussions is self pity and uninformed opinion.

I have found this very amusing:

"Gee thats funny, Im one of the few here that has pointed out all the problems and stuck to the idea of fixing the entire problem."

Yes, you have all of the answers! I am going to say it straight out, you are an ignorant fool if you honestly believe what you write. Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but let history and facts be our guide. Life is rough and we only have ourselves to blame if things do not go as planned.

This is my last response to your mis guided opinion. There are others on this board that I may not agree with, but I will give them a nod for their efforts in being rational. Edited October 14, 2005 by evok

[Snate]

if we only had a new Camaro, this would all fix itself.

[post="28672"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:lol:

If only the Camaro were here...it would create world peace and eradicate disease and hunger.

[haypops]

  I am going to say it straight out, you are an ignorant fool

[post="28734"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Gee, I was kinda wanting to earn that title for myself. :CG_all:

To that end, I offer the following

Sears Bought the assets of Eatons, which is a Chicago owned company... yeah
BLAME CANADA!

Chicago doesn't own Sears, K mart does.

[razoredge]

Your only common thread in your discussions is self pity and uninformed opinion.

I have found this very amusing:

"Gee thats funny, Im one of the few here that has pointed out all the problems and stuck to the idea of fixing the entire problem."

Yes, you have all of the answers!    I am going say it straight out, you are an ignorant fool if you honestly believe what you write.  Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but let history and facts be our guide.  Life is rough and we only have ourselves to blame if things do not go as planned.

This is my last response to your ignorance.  There are others on this board that I may not agree with, but I will give them a nod for their efforts in being rational.

[post="28734"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well you definantly surprised me on that one. Seems odd you would call me an ignorant fool and then state there would be no more response ? Had you not repeatedly said people were not worth more than 10-15 an hour all this could have been avoided. Thats reality. I can comprehend everything else you say but not this one, never !

As far as hitting me on "self pity and uninformed opinion", " we only have ourselves to blame if things do not go as planned", I can only say wow ! Call me ignorant, misinformed and errational. Decent wages for all Americans - self pity ? opinion? blame ?

I have said repeatedly that I do not have the answers but have also pointed out all the problems. Your history and facts are exactly what has led us to these problems today. Are you suggesting that there is not labor, health care and economic problems in this country at this point in history ?

I wish you could answer but I realize you can not, Id just like to know all these things I say that I should not believe and where is my lack of rationality ?

You choose to degrade me so why dont you take one of my posts, where I thought I was being rational and tear it apart and show me this ignorance.

Calling for strike - would be ignorant, I have not even suggested that

Throwing people down to 10-15 per hour would be ignorant, not one of them could continue to support life in their areas. Wheres the lack of reality there ?

The current trade agreements have had a very negitive impact on a large percentage of our population. Wheres the lack of reality in that ?

The healthcare and added operating costs (oil, steel) have been stated as being the demon at GM now, as well as across America, some industries are free of the steel problem but have that oil thing going on. Im still searchin for this ignorance, please point me the way.

My saying we all do not want to and should not have to go into "office*" work to live a decent life is ignorant ?

Pointing out that I have seen/heard many of these office and tec jobs negitivity effected by this crap, is lacking in reality ?

I generalize the "office*" to indicate inside, sit down work which seems to be whats available with most of these higher ed fields mentioned, its not to degrade any job field, I just dont know what else to call it. Outside work, inside work.

If you can really tear everything I have written down, do it. Id hate to go through life completely ignorant. Do it without spinnin it please. Do it without a bias that shows your attitudes on world labor markets benefits your gains quite well and how the effects they are having on our economy isnt hurting our workforce. I mean some kinda of answer besides "life is rough" would be more "rational" and certainly more educating, most of us got that life is tough thing down long ago. Im pretty sure mankind has been trying to improve on life and the work that needs to be done for centuries, much contributions have been made by men similar to myself as we have devoured up all the roughness and said "thank you, may I have another ? "

So come on, perhaps all this roughness has made me ignorant and irrational ?

[bowtie_dude]

Actually, my "blame Canada" remark was not made in jest. The socialist Canadian government forces pharmeceutical companies to lower prices of drugs sold in Canada. This causes those companies to sell their prescription drugs at a higher price in companies where price regulation doesn't exist. Which is why drug prices in the US or so damn high. Well, that and the FDA.

[razoredge]

Actually, my "blame Canada" remark was not made in jest.  The socialist Canadian government forces pharmeceutical companies to lower prices of drugs sold in Canada.  This causes those companies to sell their prescription drugs at a higher price in companies where price regulation doesn't exist.  Which is why drug prices in the US or so damn high.

Well, that and the FDA.

[post="28765"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So if that damn "socialist" (if thats what it is) country deregulated, costs would go down in the US and rise in Canada ?


Yarite !

What ever happend to that "say no to drugs" campaign ?

[bowtie_dude]

So if that damn "socialist" (if thats what it is) country deregulated, costs would go down in the US and rise in Canada ?
Yarite !

What ever happend to that "say no to drugs" campaign ?

[post="28766"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't know, but it wouldn't hurt.

And yes, Canada is socialist. Government subsidized healthcare? Corporate regulation? Yeah, they're socialists.

[razoredge]

I don't know, but it wouldn't hurt.

And yes, Canada is socialist.  Government subsidized healthcare?  Corporate regulation?  Yeah, they're socialists.

[post="28769"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So then much of Europe, Japan, China and who knows who else is socialist ?

The Canadian lumber industry at least in Quebec has been doing well. Much of the south will be rebuilt with N. East grown timber, which will be shipped to & manufactured in Quebec and then shipped South. :unsure:

[Snate]

The problem with the UAW is that they don't understand supply and demand. Executives are in much higher demand than regular line workers. They get good compensation because if they don't, another company is liable to offer them a better deal and they jump ship...happens all the time. Regular workers though...especially in this economy...should be lucky to have a steady job period and should gladly take a pay cut to keep their job. For every one UAW guy, there is probably 10 other people that would take their job for half the pay. 10 bucks in pushing it...but if you can't survive off 15 bucks an hour you need to learn how to manage your finances. I don't feel sorry for people who just graduate high school and get a factory job and bitch 6 or 7 years later because they can't get new stuff...that was their choice to not further themselves.

[bowtie_dude]

So then much of Europe, Japan, China and who knows who else is socialist ?

The Canadian lumber industry at least in Quebec has been doing well. Much of the south will be rebuilt with N. East grown timber, which will be shipped to & manufactured in Quebec and then shipped South. :unsure:

[post="28783"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Europe is the most socialist region in the world, excepting China and Cuba who are communist nations (Duh!).

And I don't know enough about Japan's government to determine their economic leaning.

And even the US, with its social welfare programs, is a little socialist.

And, in case you're wondering, I'm a libertarian. ;)

[evok]

Well you definantly surprised me on that one. Seems odd you would call me an ignorant fool and then state there would be no more response ? Had you not repeatedly said people were not worth more than 10-15 an hour all this could have been avoided. Thats reality. I can comprehend everything else you say but not this one, never !

As far as hitting me on "self pity and uninformed opinion", " we only have ourselves to blame if things do not go as planned", I can only say wow ! Call me ignorant, misinformed and errational. Decent wages for all Americans - self pity ? opinion? blame ?

I have said repeatedly that I do not have the answers but have also pointed out all the problems. Your history and facts are exactly what has led us to these problems today. Are you suggesting that there is not labor, health care and economic problems in this country at this point in history ?

I wish you could answer but I realize you can not, Id just like to know all these things I say that I should not believe and where is my lack of rationality ?

You choose to degrade me so why dont you take one of my posts, where I thought I was being rational and tear it apart and show me this ignorance.

Calling for strike - would be ignorant, I have not even suggested that

Throwing people down to 10-15 per hour would be ignorant, not one of them could continue to support life in their areas. Wheres the lack of reality there ?

The current trade agreements have had a very negitive impact on a large percentage of our population. Wheres the lack of reality in that ?

The healthcare and added operating costs (oil, steel) have been stated as being the demon at GM now, as well as across America, some industries are free of the steel problem but have that oil thing going on. Im still searchin for this ignorance, please point me the way. 

My saying we all do not want to and should not have to go into "office*" work to live a decent life is ignorant ?

Pointing out that I have seen/heard many of these office and tec jobs negitivity effected by this crap, is lacking in reality ?

I generalize the "office*" to indicate inside, sit down work which seems to be whats available with most of these higher ed fields mentioned, its not to degrade any job field, I just dont know what else to call it. Outside work, inside work.

If you can really tear everything I have written down, do it. Id hate to go through life completely ignorant. Do it without spinnin it please. Do it without a bias that shows your attitudes on world labor markets benefits your gains quite well and how the effects they are having on our economy isnt hurting our workforce. I mean some kinda of answer besides "life is rough" would be more "rational" and certainly more educating, most of us got that life is tough thing down long ago. Im pretty sure mankind has been trying to improve on life and the work that needs to be done for centuries, much contributions have been made by men similar to myself as we have devoured up all the roughness and said "thank you, may I have another ? "

So come on, perhaps all this roughness has made me ignorant and irrational ?

[post="28764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

History has shown that businesses and industries come and go or alter to change with the economic environment. The economy is cyclical and wealth over time get redistributed geographically and amongst the population. This has proven true in farming, steel, airlines etc. The comments by The O.C. were accurate and reflect the changing economic environment. GM for instance 40 years ago made app. 1 billion dollars a year, had a market capitalization of app. 15 billion and employees app. 300,000 people in the US. GM today empoyees half of what they used to and there value and profits are about the same. The US economy as a whole has diversified and the auto industry is not the driving power it once was in the US economy. The auto industry is in a deflatonary environment but is in a fixed cost structure that does not reflect that reality.

The DPH Chapter 11 filing may be the equivalent to Katrina hitting the Gulf Coast to the automotive pockets of the mid-west. What the eventual implications are know one know. But one certainty is, their labor rate will go down. I will repeat myself again and state that the supplier labor rate in the US factoring out DPH and Visteon is in the 10-15 dollar/hr range. There is no reason why DPH employees should be making 30/hr when that is not the industry standard. Lives will be affected. There is no doubt about that. But these workers have been paid a tremendous amount of money beyond what the going rate is. The simple fact is they are over paid and will have to adjust to their new economic realities.

[razoredge]

Does Libertarian exist ? In reality I mean ? Sorry about China, I had thought things changed over there, I also thought communism was dead. :P Can communism also be socialist ? I mean Democracy can or is that supposed to be a "Republic" :o Does any of it really exist :blink:. Snate - a household could do OK in my area with two incomes around $15@hr. There would be little to no gains unless stacked up on a credit card. There is also furtherment in these areas too, its the gains that are hard to come by. I've mentioned many heavy inflation areas the past few years. These have made the reality of these proposed wage levels less realistic. Times have changed.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If all those workers are Delphi are so skilled, and worth their $30 an hour jobs, why cant they go anywhere else and get paid that? Oh right, Delphi is the only one paying that much for their skill, because they are overpaid in comparison to the rest of the companies wages. If that job is worth $30 an hour, why cant they go somewhere else and get paid $30 an hour? Accept the fact that they are overpaid, it has nothing to do with what they can live off of, it has to do with the fact that they get paid too much for the job they do. You dont get paid depending on how much you need to survive, you get paid depending on the value of the job you do. If I have 30 kids should I ask for a raise because I cant live off $50 an hour?

[bowtie_dude]

Does Libertarian exist ? In reality I mean ?

Sorry about China, I had thought things changed over there, I also thought communism was dead. :P  Can communism also be socialist ?
I mean Democracy can or is that supposed to be a "Republic"  :o

Does any of it really exist  :blink:.

Snate - a household could do OK in my area with two incomes around $15@hr. There would be little to no gains unless stacked up on a credit card. There is also furtherment in these areas too, its the gains that are hard to come by. I've mentioned many heavy inflation areas the past few years. These have made the reality of these proposed wage levels less realistic. Times have changed.

[post="28792"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes libertarianism as a form of government? No. But as an ideal? Yes. Its republican economics and democratic civil rights, to put it simply.

Communism is extremem socialism. Government control of industry, everyone else owns your stuff. Etc etc.

[Snate]

Snate - a household could do OK in my area with two incomes around $15@hr. There would be little to no gains unless stacked up on a credit card. There is also furtherment in these areas too, its the gains that are hard to come by. I've mentioned many heavy inflation areas the past few years. These have made the reality of these proposed wage levels less realistic. Times have changed.

Our standard of living with have to adjust. Everyone is feeling the effect of rising costs and stagnant wages. I completely understand that because I know alot of families that are going through financial problems because of rising costs of everything. Most of them could easily survive though...just no new SUV every 3 years (something my dad needs to learn), no more new toys...cutting back on the discretionary spending.

The point is that 15 bucks an hour isn't "poverty wage"...its just average...plenty enough to survive on....that's why you don't see too much sympathy for union workers used to making 20-25 bucks an hour.

[razoredge]

History has shown that businesses and industries come and go or alter to change with the economic environment.  The economy is cyclical and wealth over time get redistributed geographically and amongst the population.  This has proven true in farming, steel, airlines etc.  The comments by The O.C. were accurate and reflect the changing economic environment.  GM for instance 40 years ago made app. 1 billion dollars a year, had a market capitalization of app. 15 billion and employees app. 300,000 people in the US.  GM today empoyees half of what they used to and there value and profits are about the same.  The US economy as a whole has diversified and the auto industry is not the driving power it once was in the US economy.  The auto industry is in a deflatonary environment but is in a fixed cost structure that does not reflect that reality.

The DPH Chapter 11 filing may be the equivalent to Katrina hitting the Gulf Coast to the automotive pockets of the mid-west.  What the eventual implications are know one know.  But one certainty is, their labor rate will go down.  I will repeat myself again and state that the supplier labor rate in the US factoring out DPH and Visteon is in the 10-15 dollar/hr range.  There is no reason why DPH employees should be making 30/hr when that is not the industry standard.  Lives will be affected.  There is no doubt about that. But these workers have been paid a tremendous amount of money beyond what the going rate is.  The simple fact is they are over paid and will have to adjust to their new economic realities.

[post="28791"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I understand that, the history of the Catskills and Hudson Valley some of the oldest in the country was interesting and full of these changes. Those changes were not benefiting smaller populations, or fueled by economists, or benefiting some foreign country while hurting ours. They were more natural not induced. Still I do understand what you are saying, I believe todays scenerio is much different and will be really ugly when it comes full throttle.

As for the wage ideal, will any changes be made in the areas this economic level and these populations and jobs exist in and what kind of picture is that going to paint ?

This is where my extreme reference to trailor parks and cracktown has come from.

I just try to look at the whole thing. I am for a prosperous America, Im just not seeing it at the end of this scenerio. We do have a large population and its not getting any smaller.

[now were up to $30 per hour, how high next week ?, is this like an auction ?]

Caddy - We all know why Union wages are higher, and set higher standards, or at least should. Who are you to speak of anothers value ? Justify one and discriminate against another ?

[bowtie_dude]

If $15 an hour is poverty level, then I guess I'm up the creek without a paddle, huh?

[razoredge]

at least now we are up to 15 per hour. :) On 40 hours thats 600 a week - roughly 450 through the door. 31,200 gross somewhere around 24,000 into a houshold when all is said and done.

[bowtie_dude]

at least now we are up to 15 per hour.  :)

On 40 hours thats 600 a week - roughly 450 through the door.
31,200 gross somewhere around 24,000 into a houshold when all is said and done.

[post="28810"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I consider that a pretty good income. Course, cost of living is lower in LEX than in Detroit...I don't know what someone in my field makes there.

[razoredge]

If $15 an hour is poverty level, then I guess I'm up the creek without a paddle, huh?

[post="28809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Up the creek but you still have your paddle :)

LEX LEX where is LEX ? Its not commin to me Edited October 14, 2005 by razoredge

[bowtie_dude]

Up the creek but you still have your paddle  :)

LEX LEX where is LEX ? Its not commin to me

[post="28812"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

<<<
LEXington, KY. Edited October 14, 2005 by bowtie_dude

[evok]

at least now we are up to 15 per hour.  :)

On 40 hours thats 600 a week - roughly 450 through the door.
31,200 gross somewhere around 24,000 into a houshold when all is said and done.

[post="28810"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is no doubt in my mind that cities like Flint, MI are done for if DPH gets the reduced labor rate and if forced to cuts the retirement health care and pensions. Flint has four demographics at large today.

1) The already unemployeed and poor. If I trust Michael Moors number that is about 12%
2) GM/DPH union workers
3) GM/DPH retirees
4) Healthcare Industry

And the healthcare industry prospers there because of the lucrative GM/DPH healthcare.

In MI, on the I75 corridor, North of Clarkston would be decimated under the worst case senario.

[razoredge]

if forced to cuts the retirement health care and pensions

And the healthcare industry prospers there because of the lucrative GM/DPH healthcare.

[post="28816"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yea, we heard :) http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

So maybe if the workers take the hits, the health care industry can soldier on.

I agree its very very ugly, other areas through out the country as well, then theres more industries effected by the same trends. I had been thinking Flint was already a wasteland/history.

[evok]

yea, we heard  :)  http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

So maybe if the workers take the hits, the health care industry can soldier on.

I agree its very very ugly, other areas through out the country as well, then theres more industries effected by the same trends. I had been thinking Flint was already a wasteland/history.

[post="28824"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well there is an old saying in MI. If Detroit is the a$$ hole of the country, Flint is 60 mile up in it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Caddy - We all know why Union wages are higher, and set higher standards, or at least should. Who are you to speak of anothers value ? Justify one and discriminate against another ?

[post="28805"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Havent I explained this already? I am not talking about a persons worth, I'm talking about the value of a certain job.

[razoredge]

Well there is an old saying in MI.  If Detroit is the a$$ hole of the country, Flint is 60 mile up in it.

[post="28833"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not sure what this means, not sure if its some kind of insult to the American auto industry, or if its got something to do with post Roger Smith Flint ?

[evok]

Not sure what this means, not sure if its some kind of insult to the American auto industry, or if its got something to do with post Roger Smith Flint ?

[post="28975"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So I take it you never have been to Detroit? I used to live in Flint, it is not Beverly Hills. Rent Moores Roger and Me if you want an idea. I have actually been in Autoworld with The O.C. for a car show.

[razoredge]

Yes, Ive seen programs on Flint in the aftermath and lots of storys about Buick city and its destruction and the vast wasteland created. But like I asked is this saying from post Smith Flint or before. What exactly does it mean. Is it to degrade the auto industry and its workers, inhabitants or is it becuase its now a poor run down futureless wasteland? Ive seen programs about its glory days and its wealth and then about its present state and some attempts to rehab, something about some stupid downtown mall or heritage museam to try to get some kind of money back into the town. All in vain. Yea, things change alright . Wait Alright - Alwrong, Alright - Alwrong :unsure:

[Guest swallowit]

why do you post so much in threads involving unions?

[Robert Hall]

So I take it you never have been to Detroit?  I used to live in Flint, it is not Beverly Hills.  Rent Moores Roger and Me if you want an idea.  I have actually been in Autoworld with The O.C. for a car show.

About 10 years ago, I went up to Flint a couple of times when I was living in Ann Arbor...pretty depressing place there (not unlike what I saw of Detroit). Quite a different world from the leafy, academic, thriving environment I lived in in A2.

[regfootball]

:lol:

If only the Camaro were here...it would create world peace and eradicate disease and hunger.

[post="28757"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am sure it would wipe out the possibility of a bird flu pandemic as well.

[regfootball]

15 bucks an hour ain't much, when houses are like 300 thou plus. Even run down old urban houses in still ok neighborhoods bring that. but at like 20 bucks an hour, and if your spouse works and makes about the same, that's decent enough to get into a reasonable urban dwelling. But then you can surely count on paying into YOUR OWN 401k and, for sure, expecting to pay copays on doctor visits and prescriptions and have deductibles like everyone else does.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... $15 an hour around here will put you into Brookville's wealthy club... :blink:

[razoredge]

Well... $15 an hour around here will put you into Brookville's wealthy club... :blink:

[post="29268"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep, well you go into your first job interview and tell them that so they know enought to pay you less. Of course you have lots of experience in the job market, bill paying, rent, mortgages, pay your own auto insurance ? tax's, and of course you have an interest in a future right ?

Then show it ! :blink:

[razoredge]

15 bucks an hour ain't much, when houses are like 300 thou plus.  Even run down old urban houses in still ok neighborhoods bring that.

but at like 20 bucks an hour, and if your spouse works and makes about the same, that's decent enough to get into a reasonable urban dwelling. 

But then you can surely count on paying into YOUR OWN 401k and, for sure, expecting to pay copays on doctor visits and prescriptions and have deductibles like everyone else does.

[post="29265"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thanks for the realistic evaluation of 15 from your area. Now try to imagine this 10-15, and in an area that has already had the economists push cost of living in those areas up to extract every last possible penny from that areas much higher income.

Your in Ca. right ? So this is the scenerio in your area ? Sound very much the same as here. Older suburban areas with the "Levitown" style small houses from post war era can be had for less, more around $175,000 - $200,000. Just 8 years ago they were $60 - 80,000. Now people are paying 40-60,000 just for a building lot. Our incomes have not moved in 10 years.

The scale is so f'ed up it actually bending.

BTW - My wife just informed me her health insurance just went up. Another $40 per bi weekly check. Thats $.50 per hour, actually more because she rarely gets over 32-36. Now the annual raises are only $.30-.50(cents) per hour and they already took this years raise earlier so now that means shes down to where she was 2 years ago, but actually they took that raise too, so in reality she is back to the through the door pay she was earning 8 years ago. :blink: Currently there is $1.75 per hour of just her income going into her single program, my daughter and I are on mine (we arent "legal" married). Then the company pays 50%, so thats $3.50 per hour these health care _ _ _ _ _ _ get from each and every employee, not a bad racket considering how close to minimun wage that is. Many of our local Union plans are somewhat cheaper because of volumn = buying power of sorts.

Hey is that racketeering ? :lol:

:rolleyes: somehow I just know all this is the fault of Union employees..........yarite !

[Satty]

Reg isn't in CA, nobody in CA would be so obsessed with bitching about RWD in the snow.

[regfootball]

Yep, well you go into your first job interview and tell them that so they know enought to pay you less. Of course you have lots of experience in the job market, bill paying, rent, mortgages, pay your own auto insurance ? tax's, and of course you have an interest in a future right ?

Then show it !  :blink:

[post="29305"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

well, that would explain why I invested years and thousands in a higher education, to make sure I could crack into an industry where I could make more than 15 bucks an hour.

[regfootball]

Thanks for the realistic evaluation of 15 from your area. Now try to imagine this 10-15, and in an area that has already had the economists push cost of living in those areas up to extract every last possible penny from that areas much higher income.

Your in Ca. right ? So this is the scenerio in your area ? Sound very much the same as here. Older suburban areas with the "Levitown" style small houses from post war era can be had for less, more around $175,000 - $200,000. Just 8 years ago they were $60 - 80,000. Now people are paying 40-60,000 just for a building lot. Our incomes have not moved in 10 years.

The scale is so f'ed up it actually bending.

BTW - My wife just informed me her health insurance just went up. Another $40 per bi weekly check. Thats $.50 per hour, actually more because she rarely gets over 32-36. Now the annual raises are only $.30-.50(cents) per hour and they already took this years raise earlier so now that means shes down to where she was 2 years ago, but actually they took that raise too, so in reality she is back to the through the door pay she was earning 8 years ago.  :blink: Currently there is $1.75 per hour of just her income going into her single program, my daughter and I are on mine (we arent "legal" married). Then the company pays 50%, so thats $3.50 per hour these health care _ _ _ _ _ _ get from each and every employee, not a bad racket considering how close to minimun wage that is. Many of our local Union plans are somewhat cheaper because of volumn = buying power of sorts.

Hey is that racketeering ?  :lol:

:rolleyes:  somehow I just know all this is the fault of Union employees..........yarite !

[post="29309"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the price of my house lot was 84,900 when we signed the first papers for our house like 36 months ago. I'm sure an equivalent lot now is well over 100k. LOT ONLY. The house itself is much more (MN) and I'm sure part of the exhorbitant price tag on the house (not the land) was the union labor prices. ALTHOUGH, and let me say this, in construction, I do think generally in many cases with union labor you are getting more experienced guys and ones who are in it for the longer haul. I work in buildings and construction and one trusted construction manager I worked with frequently in the past who I know is very republican and anti union did express often that union labor would be a better guarantee as far as getting qualified contractors. But in the car industry I doubt it makes a hill of beans, as the work is more repititive and not as much problem solving and management of process. Edited October 15, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Reg isn't in CA, nobody in CA would be so obsessed with bitching about RWD in the snow.

[post="29315"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

nice catch, the light is on.

thank you

and

THANK YOU.

I wouldn't be able to live with all the freaks in CA. IF I WAS in CA I would have a RWD car, actually. SO THERE> THANKS FOR PLAYING Edited October 15, 2005 by regfootball

[razoredge]

Oh for some reason I thought Ca. So wow, MN is very very expensive. I worked hard all my life to be the best at every thing I did, so I could demand better pay for my contributions to society. Which have been significant. College would have been a walk in the park if I didnt have such a hatred for enclosed buildings and the book, but then there Id be today, fat, unstimulated, ignorant, lacking of so many experiences. Yep it takes all kinds to make the world go round. Some of us just excert more energy doing it. Wanna Dance ;-)

[Robert Hall]

well, that would explain why I invested years and thousands in a higher education, to make sure I could crack into an industry where I could make more than 15 bucks an hour.

Exactly..that's why I went to college and grad school---I knew that to get the 6-figure income by age 30 (which I did) I would have to apply myself and go into something with potential... Edited October 15, 2005 by moltar

[razoredge]

Exactly..that's why I went to college and grad school---I knew that to get the 6-figure income by age 30 (which I did) I would have to apply myself and go into something with potential...

[post="29374"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But also, its because you could do that, you had that ability. Some of us have other abilitys that you may not or possibly could not do or tolerate or be interested in. Many of the jobs or occupations we went into back before the big "change" did have potential, we too were applying ourselfs, we too gave alot, we towed the line.

*we - DMF's like myself that did not go to a formal education post HS.

[regfootball]

But also, its because you could do that, you had that ability. Some of us have other abilitys that you may not or possibly could not do or tolerate or be interested in. Many of the jobs or occupations we went into back before the big "change" did have potential, we too were applying ourselfs, we too gave alot, we towed the line.

*we - DMF's like myself that did not go to a formal education post HS.

[post="29376"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

razor, you always contribute a lot to the discussion. I'd think you'd surprise yourself how much you might enjoy some college coursework if you ever had the inkling.

i don't think i was any smarter than the next guy, but i was part of a group that had been told since elementary school that, if you go to college, your chances of making more money would be significantly greater.

the field I'm in doesn't pay as much as say, some of your typical loser business or MBA majors......so the law of supply and demand still applies even with a college degree.

The folks that make the big bucks do so, because they've also figured out how to create the rules and environments and processes that allow them to do so. They created the system, and with their personalities, they know how to extract and work it as well. Edited October 16, 2005 by regfootball

[91z4me]

This Evok may be one of them, its impossible to live in this world today on 10-12 dollars an hour. It does not get you through the door with 400 dollars a week. Rent, utilities, food, and car payments & insurance can not be supported on this money. No savings can be made, forget that, it will be a continous game of bill juggling and in no time it will come to a head.  Hell gasoline consumption will be 50-80 per week from here on out. thats 200-300 a month right there. Auto insurance for two car family is 200 a month, rents are from 500 - 800 higher in urban areas. Im just talking my area which is considered low. Morgages are almost always near 1000 anywhere and house today. Higher in other areas. Hell if you own your house outright, you need from 200-400 a month just for property taxes.

So ask me what economic courses I took, Ill ask what economic courses did you take ? Must have been ones in which things didnt need to pass the calculator test ? That economics ?

[post="28201"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry bud but I am going to burst your bubble. I make $10 an hour and work right at 40 hours a week. My wife is a school teacher she makes the equivilent of $13 an hour at 40 hours a week. We are both paying back student loans. We are paying off a loan on her car. We have a 600 a month rent on our appartment we pay for electric and do not have gas. We have renters insurance and pay for car insurance for both cars, about $650 every 6 months. We have made less when we were in school and for about a year after we got out of school. We have in the past 6 years put away $25,000+ in savings in addition to paying all of our living expenses we also have cable and cable internet access. We also have cell phones.

When we didn't have a lot of extra money to spend we didn't have cable. We used dialup and we didn't then or now subscribe to magazines.

You can live off of $10 per hour, I am living proof. BTW we are buying a house when I move to St. Louis and start Chiropractic College. I will not be working and will use student loans to cover school. We WILL live off of what my wife will earn. Why? Because you live within your means!