First shots of the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V

[Drew Dowdell]

Very funny and true. You can get an 06 STS-V for about 50k, I've even seen $49k and these are for models with 8-13,000 miles, nearly new cars, but $30,000 off original price. The XLR-V is the same, I've seen those for $60-65k for 2006 models, big drop from the 100k sticker price. BMW and Lexus have some unreal ability to hold value, people decent money for them even if they have 100k miles.

I just saw a 2005 STS V8 with 30k miles for $23,000 (originally $55k) in the Cleveland area if anyone is looking for a car. Cadillacs make great used cars because of their low resale value, but they make bad new car buys.

IT"S ALL PERCEPTION!!!

IT's THE SAME REASON YOU DON'T BUY JORDASH STONE WASHED JEANS ANYMORE! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PERFORMANCE OR QUALITY!

[smk4565]

Lexus isn't a world player; they're a US market player.

It's their main market (2/3 of sales), but they sell them worldwide. Worldwide sales will be over 500,000 this year, up from 394,000 in 2004, and they sold their first car 18 years ago. So they are growing fast. I think Toyota saw the US as the market to attack first and Europe is next. BMW has even said "we have 2 competitors, one is in Stuttgart, the other is from Japan." Worldwide Lexus isn't on par with Mercedes, but they are growing.

Cadillac has sold 240-245,000 cars the last couple years worldwide. Only about 10k a year are outside of the US-Canada market. They need to do better than that, and kill that BLS, that is hurting, not helping.

[smk4565]

IT"S ALL PERCEPTION!!!

IT's THE SAME REASON YOU DON'T BUY JORDASH STONE WASHED JEANS ANYMORE! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PERFORMANCE OR QUALITY!

Luxury brands rely on perception. The Deville and Ezcalade pickup hurt Cadillac. They've needed to change their perception for years, and it has changed a little, but they still have a dressed up Tahoe (oddly enough it has a good image) and the geezer DTS that dates back to 90s and the bland STS. Mercedes has a $150,000 sedan, BMW has dozens of 10 Best and Car of the Year awards, those brands have image and status and appeal. Cadillac still relies on parts sharing with Chevy and undercutting the competition on price. It also doesn't help that American cars in general have a poor reputation. No one has forgot the 70s, 80s, and 90s of bad cars form American brands. This scares buyers away still. Cadillac needs to go above and beyond to fix the perception gap. It will cost GM billions to get them to where they need to be, I want to see them do it, but I don't think they'll invest the time and money, because they need to give Saab, Hummer or some other brand product, so a new Cadillac gets bumped back 2 years.

[smk4565]

I agree with all this.

I just hope that once the BLS comes, they won't compare the CTS to the 3-Series and C-Class anymore, but rather the 5-series and E-class (a hackneyed argument, I know, but it's one that holds validity). Of course, some of that is Cadillac's own doing, and it looks like they're working on making it right.

I hope they get this right. The BLS/BTS needs to be smaller and better than the CTS, priced about the same, 33k base. I fear the CTS will shift to $36-49k, BLS will be $29,900-36,000 and the zeta car will be $48-60k and 200+ inches long and basically be the DTS converted to rear drive.

[Drew Dowdell]

In reviews for the 2007 DTS I still read about how terrible the Cimmaron was or what a mistake the one year only Cadillac 8-6-4 was. Why do we not hear about the SLX during Acura MDX reviews? Why is it not mentioned that the MDX is platform shared with the Pilot and Odyssey? Why is there no mention of the G20 or J30 during G35 reviews? Why is there never a review that goes something like "BMW has come a long way since producing that ok handling econo-box tin can 2002 from 30 years ago" or "Mercedes has certainly made great strides since their days of building cars that couldn't get out of the way of the black clouds of soot they produced". Why does any Infiniti review not covering the G35 NOT start with "Attempting to improve their slow selling ____"?

Answer me that.

[cletus8269]

Very funny and true. You can get an 06 STS-V for about 50k, I've even seen $49k and these are for models with 8-13,000 miles, nearly new cars, but $30,000 off original price. The XLR-V is the same, I've seen those for $60-65k for 2006 models, big drop from the 100k sticker price. BMW and Lexus have some unreal ability to hold value, people decent money for them even if they have 100k miles.

why would anyone pay decent money for a 100k mile used car except for a high school beater? any new car loses value when you drive it off the lot. theres an 06 vette at our local dealership with 7k miles on it for 40 grand whats your point?

so you can get a v series caddy on the cheap if its used... thats a duh statement in itself... that makes it cheap luxury performance that can still spank lexMW's.

now thats funny and true.

[97regalGS]

Resale is based on perceived value not actual value. The resale for the CTS-V and STS-V is low because they don't have blue and white emblems on their nose... it has nothing to do with the configuration of the engine. <STS-V is DOHC btw>

I agree with that comment. I wasn't trying to link resale value to engine configuration.

however, engine configuration is one component that makes up the car as a whole and since the car as a whole can't hold it's value in the market, the engine configuration is a contributing factor at some level.

personally, i think the V8 in the CTS-V has a positive impact on the value of the car, (a positive value to ME, not necessarily the market). i think i'd rather have a LS2 with 100k miles on it, instead of a 545 with 100k miles on it.

Edited October 3, 2007 by 97regalGS

[RBB]

IT"S ALL PERCEPTION!!!

IT's THE SAME REASON YOU DON'T BUY JORDASH STONE WASHED JEANS ANYMORE! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PERFORMANCE OR QUALITY!

Speak for yourself.

And I look fine in them, too.

-RBB

[Z-06]

have you checked autotrader.com for used CTS-V's and STS-V's? they hold their value like a collander holds water. while that sucks for Cadillac and GM, it is good news for folks that want a screamer of a car but don't want to pay $50k.

Check Autotrader and you will see how fast Audis depreciate too. So much perception for being German. My friend just got a 2006 reasonably equipped Audi A4 3.2 Quattro used for $27,500, the brand new sells for $36,300 base.

Future collectibles do not mean that they retain value overnight. You gotta wait at least 20 years before seeing its worth. I think it is a good cheap investment, when the actual value is less than the face value of an equity. It does not take too long to change public perception.

[Z-06]

I don't prefer the BMW M engines, they have no torque. BMW's best engine is probably the 3.0 liter twin-turbo I6. But a twin turbo DI V8 is coming too, that should be another winner.

The Mercedes V12 is twin turbo, and only a 3 valve per cylinder SOHC. Ford put two Duratec V6s end to end for Aston Martin, if they can get a 6.0 liter V12 in that little car, Cadillac should be able to fit a 5.6 liter V12 in something. The current CTS doesn't go into a price territory that they could justify a V12, but at some point they have to make a car above entry level. Then they could use that engine and the XLR could use it right now.

If I were them I'd do 3.6 DI V6, 4.6 DI Ultra V8, 5.6 liter V12, and make a turbo or supercharged version of each. Then they need a V6 2-mode hybrid and a diesel V6 to cover the fuel efficiency end. The 8 and 12 cylinder need displacement on demand obviously to try to keep mpg numbers semi respectable.

Cadillac isn't on the radar screens of BMW, Lexus and Mercedes right now, they aren't a world player, sales are dropping with the current product mix, while the other 3 rise. Cadillac needs to shake it up, and make some world class product. They should at least match the 3-series (beating it is probably impossible for anyone), I think the 5-series/E-class segment they can lead with the right car, and they should be able to match the S-Class and LS460 and beat the 7-series, although a new 7-series is coming next year, so maybe it will be the new benchmark, but for now, the S-class is it. The XLR with the right interior and engines should be able to lead that class.

Not trying to be personal, but that shows your knowledge about engines. Let us spend research dollars on some high-tech engine, before we can fit in ERRR.... SOMETHING!

It is either you know what engine you are going to put, or what car you are going to put it in or both. You defy the Heisenburg's uncertainity by your theory about engines.

You say Caddy is not a world player, yet you call Lex a world player? At least stick to your assumptions. You give a free pass to Lex by saying that they are expanding. Well so is Caddy, in Africa, China, Australia, Europe. Things are not going to happen overnight. Survival was important along with development for GM for the past couple of years. And CTS has been a very good car considering lack of enough dollars to spend on compared to its competitors. It is better than the G, IS, C,and 3er, personally it is the weight which is bogging it down, otherwise it will thrash the 3-er (so out goes your assumption about impossible to beat the 3-er). The dynamics are there, so is the chassis tuning. Test drive it and BMW within couple of hours in the same driving cycle, and you will see what I am talking about.

You seem to have tendency of big talk open balls. It seems you have driven none of the Caddy vehicles, just have dreams which you want GM to realize and realize them soon. It is not a bad thing to have dreams, but forming baseless surmise on them sounds like Buickman.

[smk4565]

why would anyone pay decent money for a 100k mile used car except for a high school beater? any new car loses value when you drive it off the lot. theres an 06 vette at our local dealership with 7k miles on it for 40 grand whats your point?

so you can get a v series caddy on the cheap if its used... thats a duh statement in itself... that makes it cheap luxury performance that can still spank lexMW's.

now thats funny and true.

My point was about what 2001-2004 BMW 3-series or Lexus RX sell for. $20k for a 2003 version of either is pretty common, that's 50% value held and almost 5 years old. Cadillacs often hit that 50% mark within 3 years. My other point is even when a Lexus has 90-100k miles on it, that doesn't scare buyers away like it does with an American car. People have a belief that that L on the front means it will run for 300k miles. Cadillac needs to create that.

[smk4565]

Not trying to be personal, but that shows your knowledge about engines. Let us spend research dollars on some high-tech engine, before we can fit in ERRR.... SOMETHING!

It is either you know what engine you are going to put, or what car you are going to put it in or both. You defy the Heisenburg's uncertainity by your theory about engines.

You say Caddy is not a world player, yet you call Lex a world player? At least stick to your assumptions. You give a free pass to Lex by saying that they are expanding. Well so is Caddy, in Africa, China, Australia, Europe. Things are not going to happen overnight. Survival was important along with development for GM for the past couple of years. And CTS has been a very good car considering lack of enough dollars to spend on compared to its competitors. It is better than the G, IS, C,and 3er, personally it is the weight which is bogging it down, otherwise it will thrash the 3-er (so out goes your assumption about impossible to beat the 3-er). The dynamics are there, so is the chassis tuning. Test drive it and BMW within couple of hours in the same driving cycle, and you will see what I am talking about.

You seem to have tendency of big talk open balls. It seems you have driven none of the Caddy vehicles, just have dreams which you want GM to realize and realize them soon. It is not a bad thing to have dreams, but forming baseless surmise on them sounds like Buickman.

Obviously the engine has to be developed with the car, I meant that the future midlevel and high end sedan, along with the XLR should be engineered to fit a small V12. The 3-series has been on the Car and Driver 10 best list about 16 times, CTS, zero. What magazines say isn't everything, but mags like Consumer Reports (who I don't like) Road and Track, etc, they never say the CTS is better than the Germans. Enough people read that and form the same opinion and keep buying BMWs. The 3-series sells over 120,000 a year in the US, 500,000 units worldwide. What they are doing is working.

I have driven the last gen CTS (and the front drive caddies), it handled pretty well, but I thought acceleration could have been better and the interior I thought was bad. My step-dad has a BMW 540i, driving wise it crushes the CTS in acceleration, braking, steering and handling. I don't like the BMW interior though, too utilitarian, that is the downside to German cars. I may get a CTS as my next car, but I'd only get it if the 2 year old used ones sell at a huge discount.

[Sixty8panther]

How many LeMans wins and embarassed DOHC owners will it take

before people stop making unfounded anti-pushrod comments. To

me nothing makes you seem like more of a brainless moron than

talking smack bout an 8-speed & V10s... V10s are lame, 10 is NOT

a round number when it comes to motors, it really isn't any better

than a V8 but lacks the refinement of a V12.

I think V10s are kind of lame personally. If you're going to brag

about cylinder count you better have at least 16.

[Sixty8panther]

As far as resale value of luxury sedans:

1997 Cadillac STS, new: $50,000,

I bouht mine when it was 5 years old & had 100,800 miles on the odometer, $7900

1997 Infiniti Q45, new: $48,900,

I bought my ex-g/fs in 2006 with 104,000 miles for $7495

[97regalGS]

It does not take too long to change public perception.

and that is self-evident but the meteoric rise in mkt share and public perception of GM by the general public. by you expectation GM should be back to 50% mkt share because changing public perception happens overnight.

i think you need read some sociology books about how easy it is to change perception.

Edited October 3, 2007 by 97regalGS

[Z-06]

How many LeMans wins and embarassed DOHC owners will it take

before people stop making unfounded anti-pushrod comments. To

me nothing makes you seem like more of a brainless moron than

talking smack bout an 8-speed & V10s... V10s are lame, 10 is NOT

a round number when it comes to motors, it really isn't any better

than a V8 but lacks the refinement of a V12.

I think V10s are kind of lame personally. If you're going to brag

about cylinder count you better have at least 16.

V-10's are the worst configuration of an engine after an I-5.

When it comes to engine balance and refinement, the order is V-16>=V-12>I-6>V-8>V-6>I-4>V-10>I-5.

It makes sense to have a V-8 with similar power and displacement rather than a V-10.

[Drew Dowdell]

My point was about what 2001-2004 BMW 3-series or Lexus RX sell for. $20k for a 2003 version of either is pretty common, that's 50% value held and almost 5 years old. Cadillacs often hit that 50% mark within 3 years. My other point is even when a Lexus has 90-100k miles on it, that doesn't scare buyers away like it does with an American car. People have a belief that that L on the front means it will run for 300k miles. Cadillac needs to create that.

Lexus pulled that out of their asses.