5th Gen Will be at NAIAS 2006

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Well, I do know one thing, the link to the "photos" lead nowhere. I found no pictures or anything. Just a thread I've read once or twice before.

[Northstar]

Let's stay on topic here boys. This thread isn't about "the dying coupe market" it's about a possible Camaro concept. If you don't want to discuss the Camaro, then don't post in the thread. If you want to talk about why the coupe market is dying and proof that it is, go make a topic about it.

[turbo200]

Croc, you said this rumor comes around every year around this season. You are WRONG. Perhaps in circles of uninformed internet buzzers you've heard that rumor "every year", but not from the people you are hearing it from today [in the past year]. And not with the level of confirmation we have seen this year. I am almost certain it will be there. If it doesn't, it's a damn shame, but I won't worry, it'll be disappointing though. It's just more lost business opportunity for GM for not getting a highly anticipated, exciting car to the market. The argument of whether coupes are still viable or not is arbitrary. You'd have to be a psycho to abandon a market worth 192k units, and that's just one car. You'd also have to be pretty childish not to understand the kind of marketing halo a nice, cool coupe has on the rest of your lineup. The people who are saying it now have a great deal of credibility and have relayed other information that has come to pass or has proven accurate. Ah-ha and evok are incredible sources, whose credibility has been proven time and time again. they are not the only ones, though, and if you don't want to believe it fine. We get your point, you don't, you can stop posting it over and over.

[Croc]

Croc, you said this rumor comes around every year around this season. You are WRONG.

[post="28567"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

For the past three years, this time of year, we have ON THESE BOARDS heard that someone who has inside knowledge told a poster or two that a Camaro would be at NAIAS. That we have heard here for the past three years.

I do realize what a halo car can do to a brand. Don't call me childish. At Chevrolet, the halo car is the Corvette. SSR is another halo vehicle at Chevrolet. Can you give me a reason why GM would want/need three halo cars at Chevrolet Motor Division?

Look, it could very well happen. I think the probability is pretty damn unlikely, though. Don't get me wrong, I'll be stoked as anything if it happens. Part of me wants the Camaro back because Camaros are sweet cars, but at the same time I just don't think there is a business case for it, not with the Corvette, SSR, or GTO currently in production.

How do you think a Camaro would be priced? What platform? Let's just say for lack of a better answer that it will be on "Sigma-Lite." That's great, but at what price point? Zeta was supposedly the name given to "Sigma-Lite." But it was too expensive, and vehicles would have to have been priced at 35k minimum. Let's just assume that somehow GM has managed to get the costs down with this new "Sigma-Lite." Now, instead of all vehicles being priced a minimum of 35k, what do you suppose the new minimum price would be? 30k? 25k seems too low, since I can't imagine GM could shave 10k off a RWD platform in 8 months. Do you think there is a market for a 30k Camaro? Be honest, don't just say emotionally you think there is.

Everyone: just don't get your hopes up.

Everyone overanalyzed the Chevrolet SS concept from a couple years ago too...

[91z4me]

How do you think a Camaro would be priced?  What platform?  Let's just say for lack of a better answer that it will be on "Sigma-Lite."  That's great, but at what price point?  Zeta was supposedly the name given to "Sigma-Lite."  But it was too expensive, and vehicles would have to have been priced at 35k minimum.  Let's just assume that somehow GM has managed to get the costs down with this new "Sigma-Lite."  Now, instead of all vehicles being priced a minimum of 35k, what do you suppose the new minimum price would be?  30k?  25k seems too low, since I can't imagine GM could shave 10k off a RWD platform in 8 months.  Do you think there is a market for a 30k Camaro?  Be honest, don't just say emotionally you think there is.

Everyone: just don't get your hopes up.

[post="28647"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sigma-lite has been in refinement for about 2 years then work stopped for about 18 months while VE from Holden was considered then a little OVER a year ago work started up again but this time using Holden's cheaper version of Sigma's IRS and Holden will most likely use McPherson struts up front per Mark Ruess' numerous quotes on the subject.

V6 base should start around $20k with a midlevel V8 around $25k. Top level coming in about 2 years into production around $32-33k and possibly a vert for higher.

About the market being there: GM may be the number 2 player at 70-85k units a year but it beats 0 per year. Also there will be at least 1 RWD sedan on the same platform being made at a high capacity flexible efficient plant, Oshwa.

[Croc]

$20k? I'll believe it when I see it. Why would someone take a Solstice for 20k when they could have a larger Camaro for the same price? Not gonna be that low. You're really looking at just under 30k. Edited October 14, 2005 by Croc

[91z4me]

There is a big difference between a 20k 2 seat convertible and a 20k 4 seat hard top. The cars would rarely be shopped by the same people.

[Croc]

You need to stop thinking like an enthusiast and start thinking like a consumer. Both are going to be sporty, fun-to-drive vehicles. Let's put it this way: For the same price, you can get a 4-seat Camaro with a trunk, or a 2-seat Solstice with no trunk. Seriously, at 20k, sales of Solstice would be affected. People aren't buying Camaros as family vehicles. A 20k sedan wouldn't be cross-shopped with a Solstice, but another coupe? You betcha, especially one with sporty aspirations.

[z28luvr01]

The Solstice will be fine: - If someone is looking for a car with a trunk and back seats, the Solstice is off his list anyway even without the presence of a Camaro. The closest car in price/performance that GM has to the Solstice is the Cobalt SS, which obviously isn't cannibalizing the Solstice. - The 20K Camaro will almost certainly be a fixed roof model with few options. Anyone looking for a 20K convertible still has the Solstice as the main option. There's enough differentiation between the Solstice and Camaro so that both can have healthy sales. I'd be more worried about the Sky cannibalizing Solstice sales.

[Croc]

SKY will have about a 3-4k premium over the base Solstice. I wouldn't worry about the cannibalizing there, especially since the styling will be the main differentiator between the two. Camaro will have a convertible, or at least a removable top, who are you trying to kid? Cobalt SS doesn't really compete with the Solstice at all because the two cater to very different markets. Cobalt SS is the top of the line economy car at Chevrolet. It has some performance, but it is not a "performance car." The Camaros most direct competitor will obviously be the Mustang, with a price point of just under 20k. If the Camaro is to compete with Mustang, it will also offer the drop top. GM will now be offering TWO sports cars with convertibles at the same price: Solstice and Camaro. Both are "performance cars" as their mission. Both will feature droptops. Which one do you think will have more performance? My bets are on Camaro. If GM prices the two the same, more people will choose Camaro over Solstice because: same money + more car + more raw power = Camaro Styling would really be the only real selling point for the Solstice. I just can't see why GM would do anything to jeopardize the Solstice, especially given that its platform is destined to be unprofitable at this point in time. AH-HA, evok, care to weigh in?

[91z4me]

SKY will have about a 3-4k premium over the base Solstice.  I wouldn't worry about the cannibalizing there, especially since the styling will be the main differentiator between the two.

Camaro will have a convertible, or at least a removable top, who are you trying to kid?

Cobalt SS doesn't really compete with the Solstice at all because the two cater to very different markets.  Cobalt SS is the top of the line economy car at Chevrolet.  It has some performance, but it is not a "performance car."  The Camaros most direct competitor will obviously be the Mustang, with a price point of just under 20k.  If the Camaro is to compete with Mustang, it will also offer the drop top.

GM will now be offering TWO sports cars with convertibles at the same price: Solstice and Camaro.  Both are "performance cars" as their mission.  Both will feature droptops.

Which one do you think will have more performance?  My bets are on Camaro.

If GM prices the two the same, more people will choose Camaro over Solstice because:

same money + more car + more raw power = Camaro

Styling would really be the only real selling point for the Solstice.  I just can't see why GM would do anything to jeopardize the Solstice, especially given that its platform is destined to be unprofitable at this point in time.

AH-HA, evok, care to weigh in?

[post="28821"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Uhh, buddy ttops or ANY non closed top car is going to cost more money than the base. It added like $800 to the price of the 4th gen and its basic, ttop, design was the same as the 3rd gen which sold in droves and paid for the design. TTops will cost at LEAST $1000. Which means that it will be more than the Solstice. Also you are fighting a loosing arguement saying that Solstice buyers ARE Camaro buyers because a LOT of Camaro guys want the V8 with more power and rear seats. The performance Camaro buyer will opt for the V8 and will most likely load the car up and he will NOT buy a vert. A typical Solstice buyer will be older and can afford to have a second car to drive when the weather is bad.

[AAS]

I just can't see why GM would do anything to jeopardize the Solstice, especially given that its platform is destined to be unprofitable at this point in time.

Maybe a Camaro would bring along a platform that would be profitable for itself, the Solstice and the Sky.

The Firebird and Camaro coexisted for over 30 years, and they were the same thing but with different style. So why not a Camaro and a Solstice, which are totally different? Did Mazda ever think twice when they started selling the RX-8 along with the Miata? Granted they aren't as close in price, and the RX-8 doesn't have a drop-top. But you can still argue that for about the same amount of money, the RX-8 gives you a hell of a lot more. And, there are other makes (not companies) that offer small two-seat convertibles, along with larger 2+2 coupes...

Anyway... none of the insiders have bluntly stated that "The Camaro will not be shown at NAIAS." (please let my post not be the reason to do so) They have stated that there would be no concepts. Was the Aura a concept? Was the Ridgeline a concept? So, they have left the door open for near-production models...

I'm looking at this as a Camaro enthusiast, who knows when to be realistic. If I wasn't blind to the chance that there might not be a Camaro shown, then I would have booked a flight and hotel for NAIAS a long time ago. And at the same time, I feel like it would be a bummer if I didn't go to NAIAS and missed a Camaro showing.

Also, I don't appreciate those of you who don't care for the Camaro, but spend all your time making a mockery of these types of threads.

[Croc]

Hey, I already said I like the Camaro and want it back just as much as the next guy...but at the same time GM is in a precarious financial situation, and I'm looking at this from the business perspective. It would be great if everyone could get everything they wanted, but that is not the case, especially when money is involved. That's all I'm saying. BTW, I just got a PM from evok saying that we are still many years away from RWD, and that it is far to soon to begin speculating on all this. If it's that far away, then the Solstice shouldn't even be an issue.

[Croc]

Maybe a Camaro would bring along a platform that would be profitable for itself, the Solstice and the Sky.

[post="28831"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A Kappa Camaro? Sacrilege! Edited October 14, 2005 by Croc

[AAS]

A Kappa Camaro?  Sacrilege!

[post="28839"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ahhh, I never said put the Camaro on Kappa. I was suggesting that a new platform could be used for a Camaro, and it would then help the Solstice and Sky move off an "unprofitable" Kappa.

[Croc]

Ahhh, I never said put the Camaro on Kappa.  I was suggesting that a new platform could be used for a Camaro, and it would then help the Solstice and Sky move off an "unprofitable" Kappa.

[post="28846"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But moving those two would cost even more money. I have a feeling Solstice and SKY will be on Kappa for a loooong time.

[AAS]

But moving those two would cost even more money.  I have a feeling Solstice and SKY will be on Kappa for a loooong time.

[post="28848"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good point... i'm looking at it from more of a "help the Solstice and Sky move into the future" thing...

BTW... I'm not happy with the news that evok PM-ed you with.

[turbo200]

There is a big difference between a 20k 2 seat convertible and a 20k 4 seat hard top.  The cars would rarely be shopped by the same people.

[post="28705"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Huge. Whopping valley of a difference.

RWD may still be too far away, but us talking about it doesn't really affect that. The Solstice with its beautiful styling and fun-to-drive quotient will always have an audience, and with continuous improvements like the introduction of a turbocharged engine, GM will dominate that segment and won't lose sales to any Camaro or Camaro competitor. As 91z4me said, Camaros are bought mostly by performance freaks who prefer V8s, the problem is there's not enough who don't care about performance and just want a stylish coupe that makes them look good regardless of power.

The 4th gen Camaro had it when it first came out. So many guys are girls thought the design was cool and liked it enough to sell in excess of 150k units [??possibly just under that figure]. Many like to argue the coupe market is cyclical. The coupe market sells based on style and coolness factor, less on everything else. There is obviously a much smaller market for coupes than there is for sedans, but make a cool looking coupe and you will still see sales, in and some cases records. Witness all the new recent introductions, 6-series, 350z, RX-8, G35. All of these weren't here when the Camaro got phased out, but now they are and have been clipping along at decent numbers, sustainable to keep them in production. And it seems with every new one that gets put out styling gets wilder and more intriguing. Just imagine the kind of repsonse the GTO would have gotten [which currently sells at around 12-16k units/year rate] if they had started out with 1st gen Firebird or GTO styling, something wild and aggressive yet still modern, artful, as opposed to just "nice". It all comes down to the coupe market being all about good design, hot design. The last Mustang started to fade away in '99, '00, but then in '01 it got the new design and in '02 it was back to terrific numbers. The Camaro could get there, it just needs to be a great design and be a very liveable package, unlike it had been.

[Croc]

I forgot to mention in the same PM that evok sent he said that it is too soon to publicly talk about their plans. Frankly, showing a Camaro or Camaro-esque concept would be considered "publicly talking about plans." Just saying...

[Croc]

Maybe the coupe market will bounce back by the end of the decade. It all has to do with the economy. Coupes are not as practical as sedans, and with the continued economic uncertainty, I don't see the coupe market growing. Right now the growth segments are wagons, sedans, and crossover utes. What do those segments have in common? A high practicality coupled with low cost of ownership. Coupes, roadsters, and other niche vehicles are most popular when the economy is more certain and strong because they relate more closely with disposable income. If you need a vehicle (need, not want), are you going to by a sporty roadster/coupe or a sedan/crossover/minivan/wagon? People take care of necessities first, luxuries second. Edited October 14, 2005 by Croc

[z28luvr01]

[quote name='Croc' date='Oct 14 2005, 01:26 PM']SKY will have about a 3-4k premium over the base Solstice.  I wouldn't worry about the cannibalizing there, especially since the styling will be the main differentiator between the two.[/quote]
Maybe I should've made myself more clear...the possibility of the Sky stealing Solstice sales is much greater than that of the Camaro stealing Solstice sales. Yes, the Solstice and Sky are substantially differentiated by interior and exterior styling, but the differentiation between the Solstice and the Camaro is much greater.

[quote]Camaro will have a convertible, or at least a removable top, who are you trying to kid?[/quote]
Noone. I'm just saying that you're not going to get a new Camaro convertible for 20K. Well equipped fourth-gen V6 convertibles stickered for anywhere between 24 and 28, with Z28 and SS models topping out in the low 30s. You could get a Solstice and use the money left over to buy an Aveo to knock around in. The price differential between the Solstice and the cheapest Camaro 'vert will be enough to keep them from hurting each others' sales.

[quote]Cobalt SS doesn't really compete with the Solstice at all because the two cater to very different markets.[/quote]
So do the Camaro and the Solstice. One is a lightweight, cheap, small-engined two seat roadster-only. The other is a mid-sized, not-as-cheap, big engined four-place coupe with a removable top. People looking for one will not even consider the other.

[quote]  Cobalt SS is the top of the line economy car at Chevrolet. It has some performance, but it is not a "performance car." [/quote]
Tell that to Motor Trend, and all the Cobalt SS drivers who are curently kicking ass and taking names in the Grand Am cup. This isn't really pertinent to the discussion, but I just had to say it....you know.....because :)

[quote]The Camaros most direct competitor will obviously be the Mustang, with a price point of just under 20k.  If the Camaro is to compete with Mustang, it will also offer the drop top.[/quote]
Do you think Mustang buyers are going to cross-shop a Solstice? Me neither. So why worry about any effect the Camaro would have on the Solstice. For the record, a base Mustang 'vert starts at $24,735. A new Camaro 'vert won't be substantially more or less than that.

[quote]GM will now be offering TWO sports cars with convertibles at the same price: Solstice and Camaro.  Both are "performance cars" as their mission.  Both will feature droptops.[/quote]
Again...Different bodystyles. Different seating configurations. Different engine options. Different driving dynamics. Different price points. It's no different than Z4 roaster vs. 325 coupe. Or Solstice vs. Cobalt SS for that matter.

[quote]Which one do you think will have more performance?  My bets are on Camaro.[/quote]
In terms of raw engine power I agree. However there's something to be said for the thrill of flinging a lightweight, athletic car around a hairpin without breaking the tires free. I do that all the time in my "economy car with some performance", and it's an experience that I'm more than reluctant to have to give up.

[quote]If GM prices the two the same, more people will choose Camaro over Solstice because:

same money + more car + more raw power = Camaro

Styling would really be the only real selling point for the Solstice.  I just can't see why GM would do anything to jeopardize the Solstice, especially given that its platform is destined to be unprofitable at this point in time.[/quote]
As I've tried to allude to, the Solstice and Camaro are two completely different cars catering to two completely different customers. Even from a non-ethusiast, Consumer-Reports-abiding perspective, any potential buyer of one will have a hard time setting foot into the other, much less driving it home.

[AAS]

$20k for a new Camaro, keep dreaming, not going to happen.  Any new Camaro isn't going to be like the Mustang, with the bulk of sales coming from a V6 model.  GM and Chrsyler for that matter will both more than likely focus on higher margin, performance models rather than volume.  So you're not going to see sales of 200,000 Camaro or Challengers, probably less than half that.

[post="29313"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm fine with that... So, all that worrying about the Camaro stealing sales from the Kappa twins is now a moot point.

[Croc]

Told ya a 20k base was unrealistic...

[91z4me]

Told ya a 20k base was unrealistic...

[post="29325"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

STFU

[Croc]

Get over yourself. My entire point was that a 20k base price was way unrealistic for the reasons I stated, including too much internal competition.

Look at a base price of around 30k. That's what you should be saving up for, if it materializes.

AH-HA also corroborated my point that GM is looking for profits. Given the state of the economy and the industry, any other focus would be foolish.

Another thing to consider...any Camaro produced can't be priced too differently from a GTO.

Now let's talk about something productive...like how it will be equipped realistically.

Frankly, I'd say give it a nice ass interior like the GTO and keep the standard equipment low to keep cost down.

Here's something...I know a lot of you Camaro fans hate ABS...how about this: keep ABS standard for the safety nazis and have an ABS delete option (for a cost)? BOOM there's more Camaro performance while GM gets to make money off of it while still appeasing the safety nazis by having it standard. Not too expensive, but still a price on it, say $150.

[AAS]

Now let's talk about something productive...like how it will be equipped realistically.

Frankly, I'd say give it a nice ass interior like the GTO and keep the standard equipment low to keep cost down.

Here's something...I know a lot of you Camaro fans hate ABS...how about this: keep ABS standard for the safety nazis and have an ABS delete option (for a cost)?  BOOM there's more Camaro performance while GM gets to make money off of it while still appeasing the safety nazis by having it standard.  Not too expensive, but still a price on it, say $150.

[post="29339"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Excellent idea...

I would actually dig a very basic, utilitarian interior. Just the necessary gauges, minimal controls for radio and HVAC. Maybe use an aluminum chassis for the dash with a nice synthetic cover on the upper part (just to cut the glare)? I don't mind a dash that is hard to the touch, unless it's shiny plastic.

But when it comes to ABS... that's one option that I would not delete. Rear window defrost? deleted it on the SS. Side curtain airbags? I'll pass. Traction control? No thanks. But ABS is a totally different story.

What else would I like? A short throw shifter that feels like one (not just shorter throws, but ditch the rubber isolation between the stick and base). Resolve the issue with the stick shaking while I drive. Have an option for something similar to the ZL1 suspension package. True dual exhaust.

[91z4me]

[quote name='Croc' date='Oct 15 2005, 05:44 PM']Get over yourself.  My entire point was that a 20k base price was way unrealistic for the reasons I stated, including too much internal competition.[/quote]
Unrealistic or not it has been mentioned that the 5th gen will compete on all levels with Mustang, what does a base v6 Mustang cost?

[quote]Look at a base price of around 30k.  That's what you should be saving up for, if it materializes.[/quote]
No it won't be. Unless you want to not have a V6. A V8 may base around 30k but not a volume V6.

[quote]AH-HA also corroborated my point that GM is looking for profits.  Given the state of the economy and the industry, any other focus would be foolish.[/quote]

AH-HA may think one thing but that doesn't mean that it is 100% gospel. The V6s will provide the majority of sales and they ARE essential to any Camaro at all.

[quote]Another thing to consider...any Camaro produced can't be priced too differently from a GTO.[/quote]
So you think that an 18,000 unit per year imported car from another continent across the Pacific ocean several THOUSAND miles away built at a plant that added a shift to produce all 18k and all were built within 2 weeks that is only available with a 6 speed and a CD changer as the only options will determine how GM prices a car that should sell right at 100k per year WITH at least 1 volume Sedan pushing chassis production over 200k per year. Noting that the new Camaro WILL have a V6 and possibly a mid model v8 with tons of options including some sort of open roof design.

Lets give you some time to let that sink in.

[quote]Now let's talk about something productive...like how it will be equipped realistically.[/quote]

Sure Base model V6 with a 3.9 VVT and 6 speed auto no cost option for 6 speed (Asin 6 speed found in the 350Z), hopefully with DOD on auto. Possible mid level V8 5.3 DOD on auto with 6 speed auto with no cost option for 6 speed manual(T56). Highest performance V8 6.0+ engine no DOD, Standard features are sure to include power windows, power locks, CD player with miniplug connection, ABS, AC. Options it will surely have Onstar, cruise control, Traction control, open roof option (hopefully some type of targa or T tops), 6 disc in dash, DVD based NAV, heated/cooled seats, oversized rims on v6(17s or 18s) V8 gets 17s standard with 18s optional, sport suspension on V6 models. I am sure there are others but I bet all of these are there.

[quote]Frankly, I'd say give it a nice ass interior like the GTO and keep the standard equipment low to keep cost down.[/quote]
I think I speak for everyone when I say that the interior should be BETTER than the current GTO. Its interior was designed back around 1995. This car won't be in showrooms till 2008 at the earliest so I hope it is lightyears ahead of that, nothing against the GTO but times change.

[quote]Here's something...I know a lot of you Camaro fans hate ABS...how about this: keep ABS standard for the safety nazis and have an ABS delete option (for a cost)?  BOOM there's more Camaro performance while GM gets to make money off of it while still appeasing the safety nazis by having it standard.  Not too expensive, but still a price on it, say $150.[/quote]
How about just putting a switch in the car to disable ABS like say putting inside the glove box and have the car warn you when you start it if ABS is off.

[Croc]

I think I speak for everyone when I say that the interior should be BETTER than the current GTO.  Its interior was designed back around 1995.  This car won't be in showrooms till 2008 at the earliest so I hope it is lightyears ahead of that, nothing against the GTO but times change.

I wasn't talking about the design so much as the interior quality. GTO has a very quality interior though I agree the design is a little dated at this point. Still, it's one of the better NA GM interiors.

How about just putting a switch in the car to disable ABS like say putting inside the glove box and have the car warn you when you start it if ABS is off.

[post="29367"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That would work too, but I just think something should be there for the Sixty8 crowd since that IS a market.

As for the V6 and pricing arguments, whatever. We'll see if and when it comes to market. Again, GM will be going for profits and not volume. There's more profits at a 30k performance machine than at a 25k V6 version of a 30k performance machine. Edited October 16, 2005 by Croc

[Croc]

Excellent idea...

I would actually dig a very basic, utilitarian interior.  Just the necessary gauges, minimal controls for radio and HVAC.  Maybe use an aluminum chassis for the dash with a nice synthetic cover on the upper part (just to cut the glare)?  I don't mind a dash that is hard to the touch, unless it's shiny plastic. 

But when it comes to ABS... that's one option that I would not delete.  Rear window defrost? deleted it on the SS.  Side curtain airbags?  I'll pass.  Traction control?  No thanks.  But ABS is a totally different story.

What else would I like?  A short throw shifter that feels like one (not just shorter throws, but ditch the rubber isolation between the stick and base).  Resolve the issue with the stick shaking while I drive.  Have an option for something similar to the ZL1 suspension package. True dual exhaust.

[post="29356"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree with most of what you said. Hell, the corporate radio/HVAC would suffice as long as it is well-integrated.

Here's what GM needs to decide for the Camaro interior: useful rear seats, or no rear seats in lieu of an interior storage area. I think most people would agree the rear was useless in the 4th gen. Frankly, I'd say make it useful for two occupants and have something like the flip and fold Impala has so people COULD carry stuff back there if they wanted.

The airbags are a must, as if they aren't regulation required by its introduction they will be sometime throughout its run. Plus, it would make it safe against SUVs. Edited October 16, 2005 by Croc

[AAS]

I agree with most of what you said.  Hell, the corporate radio/HVAC would suffice as long as it is well-integrated.

Here's what GM needs to decide for the Camaro interior: useful rear seats, or no rear seats in lieu of an interior storage area.  I think most people would agree the rear was useless in the 4th gen.  Frankly, I'd say make it useful for two occupants and have something like the flip and fold Impala has so people COULD carry stuff back there if they wanted.

The airbags are a must, as if they aren't regulation required by its introduction they will be sometime throughout its run.  Plus, it would make it safe against SUVs.

[post="29399"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You are right, the back seats in the 4th gen were pretty much for emergency use only. But, with or without those seats folded, the rear area still had plenty of cargo room. Don't forget about the covered area in the rear of the trunk. That alone takes care of the usual storage needs, unless the T-tops are off...

[Croc]

You are right, the back seats in the 4th gen were pretty much for emergency use only.  But, with or without those seats folded, the rear area still had plenty of cargo room.  Don't forget about the covered area in the rear of the trunk.  That alone takes care of the usual storage needs, unless the T-tops are off...

[post="29415"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, but GM really needs homerun product after homerun product. Can you imagine if GM had a sport car that actually had a good deal of utility to it as well? My guess is that the flip-and-fold seats aren't too heavy or anything.

[hyperv6]

Here is the reality of this even though some refuse to accept it. The key to the new Camaro will be a low priced well equipt V6 that sells in high volume. It must be acceptable to women as much as men vs the 4th gen was a mans car and most women did not like it. It will have a more upright seating with a usable trunk and rear seat. There is a market for this car and the a Mustang is proving that now. The Mustang has never been a great car but price and V6 sales have kept it alive. Many of these sales have been to women. A great performance V8 car will be needed but kept under 30K with a high end low volume Super Z28 redied to compete with the Cobra. Yes look for ther SS as the standard performance car and the Z28 to move to the top of the list. Don't want to believe this look around what is Chevy making for every model, a SS. Talk even has the Vette even getting a SS in the future. Soltice vs Camaro is Apples to Oranges, their is nothing to compare here as they are for two different markets and one is low volume 2nd or 3rd car and the other is high volume 1st or 2nd car. The bigger your market the more you will sell. The Camaro need to sell in big numbers as Chevy has one halo car now and has no need for another low profit halo car. They only passed the SSR off as a truck halo and it will die soon due to the lack of sales and profit. They will not repeat the SSR again with this car. As for my statment the the car will be in Detroit and adding "unless anything happens". I got my info from the guy who ran the Camaro program for years and was offered early retierment. He planned to stay on because of what he was working on in Detroit for Chevy [his love of the Camaro is unmatched in GM]. He is the one that is telling all Camaro fans to be at Detroit. I know his word is good and his past record of info has not fail unless someone high up pulls a last minute plug on a program against Chevys will. With Chapter 11 hovering nothing is 100% Also if a plug is pulled Scott would be the first to let us know it is off at this point he is not changing his story. If something changes Scott will be the first to let us know in his web posts not someone here. Also as Scott has posted think a lot of 2nd gen in this car too not just 1st gen.

[turbo200]

It's so illogical to argue first that RWD is too far away and then to speculate about base content, and say, with a definitive tone, as if your opinion is the only one that counts here, that there is no way this car will come in at 20k. That's why some of your posts get old Croc, because you pretend, often, as if your opinion is the end all be all and you're opinion is the only one that counts. Ah-ha is a great source, and I respect him tremendously, and I always thoroughly read and listen to what he says, but in this case I don't have to take his word as the gospel. I choose not to, based on what others have said. Do I think GM will chase profit? Well, it would be stupid for them not to. But they would be even 10 times stupider to ignore tuners looking for an inexpensive Camaro, with a nice wheel and tire package, for around 24k, where they could easily slap a turbo [possibly from GM parts catalog] for around 1k. Is that not logical? Am I crazy? That's where the volume would be. That's what would be necessary to sustain a car line, imo, volume. Ah-ha doesn't have to agree with this, but then nobody does, this is all conjecture, ultimately I am just trying to make the most educated guess. I don't pretend the Camaro will base at 20k, but even around 22k, that would be a great deal. Any higher than 25k and I think they are sacrificing many Mustang customers. Do I think it's realistic the Camaro will get 200k sales? No way, but anything can happen. And anything includes 200k sales when a car like the one GM is describing they can build is a real thing. Imagine, a Mustang, sold under GM, with even better engines, styling that was exciting and put the Mustang to shame, an incredible interior unlike what we've seen from GM [what is coming out from GM is unlike what we've seen before from them- per ah-ha], and handling to rival and beat the Mustang. Let's see who's right. At this point, this is nothing but conjecture from most of us, and those in the know can't say, and the one most involved with Chevy, well most of all of you choose to ignore what he has to say. Go and actually read what he has to say and then try to ignore it.

[Croc]

Let's stay away from personal attacks, eh?

As for the logic, no one is speculating on base content, merely saying what they think "should be" in a Camaro. Who knows if GM will do this or not...who cares? That isn't the point.

So you have your faith in a different source. That's fine. But that doesn't make my opinions any less valid because we all know that AH-HA and evok have been the most reliable insiders on this board for the past 4 years. If I wanted to, I could turn things around and accuse you of acting like your opinions are the end all be all because you get your info from Fbodfather. But I really don't care.

Now, why don't you share with us what kind of features you would like in a Camaro, realistically, since that is where this topic has headed. I'm tired of arguing here, and when I brought up "dream Camaro features" that was my subtle hint that I wasn't interested in debating the price anymore.

Have a nice evening.

[Northstar]

If GM wants to do a lot of V8 models and price it above the Mustang I think they need to call it Chevelle. IMO, a Camaro isn't going to sell as well if it's price in the 30s for the V8 like the GTO... unless they're pricing the V8 the same as the Mustang GT and just saving the V6s for some secretaries and fleet sales.

[Brandon Lutz]

Realistcally offering a stripped down package costs more money in the long run. I believe Guy McCoy offered the explaination once over at CZ28. Basically it costs GM more money to design and engineer a car to fit both fully loaded and stripped down packages. It costs all manus more to design to this strategy. Thats why more and more cars today have standard ac, carpet, and etc because it costs more money in the long run to design and engineer say manual and power window untis. Power and manual locks, and etc. Why we dont see the options we had years ago in vehicles is because in todays marketplace stripped down models do NOT sell well at all and it costs money to engineer for stripped down models (I know thats hard to believe). Basically basic, stripper options costs car manus more to develop and to sell as 90 percent of the buyers out there will have no interest what-so-ever in even considering say a rubber matted, manual crank Z28 with no AC. Cars like that will languish on lots forever until an enthusiast wants it. Basically, one of the most unrealistic options one could ask for in todays car world is a stripped down muscle car with only a steering wheel, seats, and a big engine. Not going to happen and its not a feasible thing to do. The most realistic is to offer about 2 to 3 levels of trim that vary on small levels to keep costs down and those trim levels only have small things that make them different such as leather seats or no leater seats and etc.

[91z4me]

Don't get me involved in your pissing match. :angry:

The deal is, that GM won't be doing a lot of V6 models like the Mustang.  Total Camaro sales will be under 100k/year.

[post="29475"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wasn't dragging you in on anything AH-HA just saying that Croc got a little cocky when he belived what you said supported his statements.

I agree there won't be a lot different edition v6 models, AKA Pony package on 6 cylinder mustangs. But V6 sales WILL be important for a profitable Camaro.

Also I think sales will be around 100k the first year and go down to 75-85k per year after that, where the 4th gen F-bodies were selling combined.

[turbo200]

Croc: When was i attacking you? I was merely confronting you about a certain manner in which you come across in your posts. I didn't call you any name; I am just trying to get you to retract from your position of being the authority on EVERYTHING. Be willing to listen to others and you can learn a lot more than fighting every good word that comes your way.

[turbo200]

As for the logic, no one is speculating on base content, merely saying what they think "should be" in a Camaro.  Who knows if GM will do this or not...who cares?  That isn't the point.

So you have your faith in a different source.  That's fine.  But that doesn't make my opinions any less valid because we all know that AH-HA and evok have been the most reliable insiders on this board for the past 4 years.  If I wanted to, I could turn things around and accuse you of acting like your opinions are the end all be all because you get your info from Fbodfather.  But I really don't care.

Now, why don't you share with us what kind of features you would like in a Camaro, realistically, since that is where this topic has headed.  I'm tired of arguing here, and when I brought up "dream Camaro features" that was my subtle hint that I wasn't interested in debating the price anymore.

Have a nice evening.

[post="29471"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I should have emphasized your arguments on price. Why would GM create another GTO? That's basically what you're saying they would do if you expect them to price the car around 30k base. Why would they do such a stupid thing again. The GTO is purposely limited at that price because that's all GM wants to sell. Camaro would have to sell more in order to even get created. And yet you argue, adamantly, that price will start around 30k? My problem really is that you are not willing to look at this from different perspectives. There is just no reason for GM not to start the Camaro under 25k. IF they didn't they would be siginificantly undercutting its potential against the Mustang. I see a Camaro starting around 22-23k, in an ideal world 20k base just like the Mustang. I agree with what ah-ha has siad about potential sales figures.

[Croc]

Look...this is what I'm thinking about when I form my opinions:

The Camaro would undoubtably share the same platform as the next GTO. Both are RWD...the GTO would be built in America or Canada right next to a Camaro. GTO would not be limited at the paltry 18k units per year. Importing cars from Australia would not be feasible due to exchange rates. That was one of the problems of the original Zeta program. Since the Camaro and the GTO will be the same type of car on the same type of platform, the prices cannot differ all that much. GTO I expect will carry a slight premium in this case, since the car's heritage is somewhat different than that of the Camaro. So the Camaro will be cheaper, but not by too much. We know that GM has had issues with cost regarding future RWD programs. With that piece of knowledge, it is fairly safe to assume that GM hasn't found a way to dramatically reduce costs in the last 8 months. Therefore, if GM originally nixed Zeta because the vehicles would have to cost too much, such as a Pontiac G8 costing base 35k, then I think it is safe to assume that the new RWD architecture would reduce the costs to around 30k. Now I said "around" because it could differ 1-2 grand. But 30k is the ballpark figure here because it is a nice even number and seems pretty logical from what we know.

Something else we know: GM needs money. Financial situations at GM are kinda dicey and what with Delphi, the industry is on shaky ground. GM needs profits. One thing we know about profits is that cheap cars do not have as great of profit margins as more expensive cars. GM makes more off of a Cadillac DHS than it does from a Solstice. That's just economics. Therefore, GM is probably going to keep any new Camaro affordable but not a "value" or "deal." GM knows the demand is there, and most enthusiasts will pay whatever GM asks for it as long as it is not too unreasonable. I really honestly believe that 30k is a figure where GM will make a good amount of money, yet most people could still afford it. Maybe 27k.

As for the Mustang comparisons, you have to remember that the Mustang at Ford competes in several classes. It is a cheap convertible that looks good and is fun to drive. GM is taking a more segmented approach. The GTO/Camaro will compete with Mustang on performance like the GTO currently does. Convertible option as well. However, when it comes to a cheap, fun convertible, the Mustang also competes in a way with Solstice, SKY, and Miata. A LOT of teenagers get the Mustang because it is a convertible and cheap. Solstice and Miata fill the same market in that way: the value convertible.

Now, I firmly believe that GM's target market for a new Camaro is going to be primarily male, 25-40, who likes raw power and performance, but also values some handling finesse and basic practicality. The Camaro will not be the primary household vehicle. I think the Camaro will have both a V6 and a V8, but the pricing strategy would place the V6 around 27k and the V8 (and the bulk of the sales) would be closer to 30k and maybe slightly above.

I don't think the Camaro is meant to compete with the base Mustangs...that's really what the G6 convertible (if it ever gets released) will do IMO. The Camaro will be about satisfying the higher end Mustang customers.

This is what I've been thinking...what are your thoughts?

[91z4me]

Look...this is what I'm thinking about when I form my opinions:

The Camaro would undoubtably share the same platform as the next GTO.  Both are RWD...the GTO would be built in America or Canada right next to a Camaro.  GTO would not be limited at the paltry 18k units per year.  Importing cars from Australia would not be feasible due to exchange rates.  That was one of the problems of the original Zeta program.  Since the Camaro and the GTO will be the same type of car on the same type of platform, the prices cannot differ all that much.  GTO I expect will carry a slight premium in this case, since the car's heritage is somewhat different than that of the Camaro.  So the Camaro will be cheaper, but not by too much.  We know that GM has had issues with cost regarding future RWD programs.  With that piece of knowledge, it is fairly safe to assume that GM hasn't found a way to dramatically reduce costs in the last 8 months.  Therefore, if GM originally nixed Zeta because the vehicles would have to cost too much, such as a Pontiac G8 costing base 35k, then I think it is safe to assume that the new RWD architecture would reduce the costs to around 30k.  Now I said "around" because it could differ 1-2 grand.  But 30k is the ballpark figure here because it is a nice even number and seems pretty logical from what we know.

Something else we know: GM needs money.  Financial situations at GM are kinda dicey and what with Delphi, the industry is on shaky ground.  GM needs profits.  One thing we know about profits is that cheap cars do not have as great of profit margins as more expensive cars.  GM makes more off of a Cadillac DHS than it does from a Solstice.  That's just economics.  Therefore, GM is probably going to keep any new Camaro affordable but not a "value" or "deal."  GM knows the demand is there, and most enthusiasts will pay whatever GM asks for it as long as it is not too unreasonable.  I really honestly believe that 30k is a figure where GM will make a good amount of money, yet most people could still afford it.  Maybe 27k.

As for the Mustang comparisons, you have to remember that the Mustang at Ford competes in several classes.  It is a cheap convertible that looks good and is fun to drive.  GM is taking a more segmented approach.  The GTO/Camaro will compete with Mustang on performance like the GTO currently does.  Convertible option as well.  However, when it comes to a cheap, fun convertible, the Mustang also competes in a way with Solstice, SKY, and Miata.  A LOT of teenagers get the Mustang because it is a convertible and cheap.  Solstice and Miata fill the same market in that way: the value convertible.

Now, I firmly believe that GM's target market for a new Camaro is going to be primarily male, 25-40, who likes raw power and performance, but also values some handling finesse and basic practicality.  The Camaro will not be the primary household vehicle.  I think the Camaro will have both a V6 and a V8, but the pricing strategy would place the V6 around 27k and the V8 (and the bulk of the sales) would be closer to 30k and maybe slightly above.

I don't think the Camaro is meant to compete with the base Mustangs...that's really what the G6 convertible (if it ever gets released) will do IMO.  The Camaro will be about satisfying the higher end Mustang customers.

This is what I've been thinking...what are your thoughts?

[post="29520"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Croc you must be part lawyer because you can argue till your blue in the face. It is almost 2 am here and I am finally tired enough to go to bed in a moment, caffine was keeping me awake. I think you understand a lot of what I am saying but I belive your price numbers are high. VE didn't cost to much to build it cost to much because of the way it is manufacuted, IE Holden techniques. Sigma-lite/revised Zeta is built around GMNA manufacturing methods and will be cheaper because new tooling and production methods don't have to be changed. The most likely plant to build the cars is already set up for flexible manufacturing, Oshwa. I think base price for the V6 will be around 20k if for no other reason than the shock value.

Disagree if you want but you have my respect and at least for now I am done.

[Croc]

It's not arguing, it's "explaining" :P I do understand what you are saying, but the root of our differences is that we are both equally convinced that the Camaro will be targeted at two different demographics. My price is too high for your target demographic, and yours is far too low for what I think the ideal target should be...

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

if the new camaro isnt going to offer competitive pricing to the mustang then it simply should not be called a camaro. People like me would LOVE to have a new camaro but if the best i can do is a 25k V8 camaro then ill take a 19k V6 mustang. Now if it was a Chevelle... well thats different. Chevelle evokes a muscle car thought whereas camaro is pony car.

[hyperv6]

As for my comments I was not attacking anyone just defending my opinion. When I say V6 I don't mean stripper it will be well equipped. Even Holden offers a Monaro with a 3800SC under the GTO. Also the loss of the 4Th Gen and the ongoing sales for the Mustang were all tied too the V6 sales cars sales. Not everyone can afford The V8 price. But no one has hit one one true reasone here, not everyone can Afford the INSURANCE! All the above is info is based on my own observations and bits of info I have heard. So only accept it as my opinion. As for my confidence in Fbodfather, I don't want imply anything wrong with some of the others info but when they give me a named well placed GM employee that is giving the info I may pick up on it. As for now I know what Fbodfather does for a living and I know what car he has a great passion for, So if you want me to choose between a named well placed GM employee who was well connected to the F body for years or a unnamed scouce I will be more confident with the named GM well place employee. Besides his info has been on the target on this topic for a long time. Lets face it if a guy can get GM to make a ES edition Camaro for a family member [a one off SS renamed a ES badges, V6 in the last year limited SS paint] he must know something and have good connections. You can believe who you want but My money is on the named and known GM man. If anyone is offended because I sound confident I don't mean it this way. I just trust the person I know and that is why I am confident about his info. Lets face it if I am wrong or anyone else this is only a web site and this is just some of the fun.

[ShadowDog]

... Frankly, showing a Camaro or Camaro-esque concept would be considered "publicly talking about plans." ...

[post="28855"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Considering the hubub of 'when will we see a Camaro again' over the course of the last few years since it was axed, even a tease by GM via the unveiling of a 'concept' vehicle may be enough. It's certainly no secret how GM has created buzz through conceptual material, only to yank the carpet out from under the whole endeavour citing a lack of profitable interest. That's how I see it. Let them go ahead with talk of confirming the unveiling of a 'concept'. In my eyes, that would simply be for publicity in GM to suggest they won't vanish without shouting aloud what could have been. Unless someone stands next to said concept and specifically suggests that plans will be developed and the car will see production, a concept from GM certainly wouldn't mean anything more to me than a rendered drawing.

...basic, stripper options costs car manus more to develop and to sell as 90 percent of the buyers out there will have no interest what-so-ever in even considering say a rubber matted, manual crank Z28 with no AC. Cars like that will languish on lots forever until an enthusiast wants it.

[post="29486"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Enthusiasts already out on a limb with declarations of intent to purchase a new model will jump from the tree of logic to suggest they would still buy one without any bells and whistles. Good for them. You certainly won't have a profitable car without what consumers already declare standard equipment. Publicity on the car itself would be severely damaging, what with journalists raising an eyebrow to question the fact that a car could have little-to-no creature comforts in order to provide low-buck high-performance. I can read their minds already, '...then, this thing had better perform much higher than my expectactions.' I also mean to imply that it had better perform exceptionally in something other than straight-line 0-60 runs; otherwise, it would all be just for a name and an image we all would hope could die.

...Something else we know: GM needs money.  Financial situations at GM are kinda dicey and what with Delphi, the industry is on shaky ground.  GM needs profits.  One thing we know about profits is that cheap cars do not have as great of profit margins as more expensive cars.

Kinda goes against everything logical from a financial point of view, unless GM just needs an expensive marketing campaign that would appear to be based purely on the image of a car.

Now, I firmly believe that GM's target market for a new Camaro is going to be primarily male, 25-40, who likes raw power and performance, but also values some handling finesse and basic practicality.  The Camaro will not be the primary household vehicle.  I think the Camaro will have both a V6 and a V8, but the pricing strategy would place the V6 around 27k and the V8 (and the bulk of the sales) would be closer to 30k and maybe slightly above.

I don't think the Camaro is meant to compete with the base Mustangs...that's really what the G6 convertible (if it ever gets released) will do IMO.  The Camaro will be about satisfying the higher end Mustang customers.

This is what I've been thinking...what are your thoughts?

[post="29520"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just my opinion...
V6 = bulk of sales, and females will play a significant roll
Your price would be a fair estimate. I'll go along with it.

V8 = mainstay image in the key demographic GM HOPES would buy the bulk of these cars; however, with that, they make less money. I say this because few people will actually buy the V8 performance models without splurging on luxury items like, power everything, leather appointment, and various creature comforts. (Heh, luxury items...gees, most of these are considered standard equipment in the Aveo!)

It will end up competing with the Mustang regardless. Consumers will end up making that the reality, regardless. I doubt many people will look at the base Mustang without wondering about the Camaro as being another option. The G6 is a nice point; however, it'll be just another consideration. I believe Camaro and Mustang have always been, and will continue to be, the typical consumer comparison.

Remember, just my opinion...

[Chicagoland]

Some history: Chevelle SS was the true muscle car, not all Chevelles. If one actaully lived in the 'glorious muscle car era' they'd have seen that most mid sized Chevies were not SS's. Common power was 2 barrel 307 or 350 v8's and were commuter cars. And yes, 1 barrel 6's too, more then one thinks. There were even Chevelle wagons and four doors! By 1971, 'Chevelle" was the plain models, and Chevelle Malibu was the more popular trim. By 1974, SS's were only ElCaminos, and by 1978, Malibu took over completely. ============================================= Any two door only 4 seater, compact sized, sporty car by Chevy should be called Camaro, not Chevelle. To be correct, the a car the size of the current Monte Carlo or GTO would be a "Chevelle". Edited October 24, 2005 by Chicagoland

[BuddyP]

Here's what was said through my source. I just asked if they had and planned on showing a Camaro at NAIAS... But not sure why he said Sigma and referrenced GTO.. isnt' the GTO a Zeta? ...."So far it looks good to go as both a concept car and a show car. The production car looks some what like the '68 camaro and is based off the sigma platform (GTO). Didn't see the show car before they took the molds off it, but I'd assume it's very similar. "....

[BuddyP]

Ok, replied back to him about the Zeta/Sigma mixup, Here's what I replied back to him with... "What do you mean by both concept and show car? You also mention production car, does this look like a green lighted project for production? Also, isn't the current GTO a Zeta? " here's his reply... ..."Sorry, should have said concept and production car. It will be based on the GTO, I just got sigma/zeta confuzed(I'm in a different department .LOL). The car could still get canceled but I'd say it's going to make it to the street."...

[knightfan26917]

I know I'm being rather cynical ... but, I'll only believe this when I see it....


Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker
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