Automakers slapped with $2B lawsuit

[CARBIZ]

The National Post printed an excellent article on this subject yesterday in their auto section. Surprisingly, they sided with the automakers on this one. Most notably, they mentioned the fact that leases (which comprise nearly 60% of the market in this country - and a far greater chunk in the GTA!) will take a huge hit. Someone who leased their $47k Mercedes a year ago (when the dollar was still around .90) and is anticipating a buy back of $22k after 3 years will be horrified when the vehicle turns out to be only 'worth' $15k. If they have an 'open' lease, then they will have to pony up the difference; if the lease is 'closed,' then the leasing company will take the hit. You can bet they will recoup their losses somewhere.

Everyone is so obsessed with the CASH customer, but they represent such a tiny portion of the market and only high end vehicles are effected. Financial institutions simply will not loan money for a car loan purchased in the U.S.

And as the National Post points out, nobody was bitching when 5 years ago the Canadian consumer was paying far less than their American cousins and vehicles were flooding over the border south.

Nobody expects the dollar to stay at $1.04. Manufacturers simply cannot adjust their prices for every point swing of the dollars - the administration of that would be ludicrous.

From where I sit, this is nothing more than a bunch of fat cats whining about being deprived of their 'right' to this or their 'right' to that. As with everything wrong with our society, everyone is aware of their 'rights', but not their 'responsibilities.' The 'rich' always off-shore their money while the rest of us have to pay the bills.

[thegriffon]

If the Loonie stays strong you will eventually see prices more in line with the US (given taxation differences). Most of that will come from lower inflation of car prices in Canada v the US, and perhaps minor decreases in prices at MY changes. Automakers are not only concerned with new vehicle buyers, but recent buyers who bought their vehicles when the loonie was worth much less. Vehicle prices need to be stable, they can't swing with changes in he exchange rate, or as has been mentioned more than once, it wreaks havoc with resale and residuals. The exchange rate isn't retroactive, and neither are car prices. If you want permanent price parity with the US you need to dump the loonie and switch to the US dollar.

[FloydHendershot]

No, sir, it's the cost of doing business in Canada, for GM, Sanyo and everybody. This is a big country, transportation costs, marketing costs, health care (which ain't 'free' at all) and - my personal favorite: you'd be surprised at what the difference of 5 degrees celsius makes in energy costs for a company doing business in Canada, versus the U.S.

But, yeah, it's a free country. Take your money elsewhere. Just don't go bitching on some board somewhere when YOUR job is gone because everyone went somewhere else. Or maybe you're lucky enough to have a job that isn't effected by the political whims of our economy. Lucky you.

Clearly this man ran out of maple syrup, don't let it get to you.

The exchange rate isn't retroactive, and neither are car prices. If you want permanent price parity with the US you need to dump the loonie and switch to the US dollar.

The Amero?

[GXT]

If the Loonie stays strong you will eventually see prices more in line with the US (given taxation differences). Most of that will come from lower inflation of car prices in Canada v the US, and perhaps minor decreases in prices at MY changes. Automakers are not only concerned with new vehicle buyers, but recent buyers who bought their vehicles when the loonie was worth much less. Vehicle prices need to be stable, they can't swing with changes in he exchange rate, or as has been mentioned more than once, it wreaks havoc with resale and residuals. The exchange rate isn't retroactive, and neither are car prices. If you want permanent price parity with the US you need to dump the loonie and switch to the US dollar.

I agree with you... except that almost all the recent car introductions for this fall still included the 1-4% markup. If auto companies were really interested in levelling the price, wouldn't they at least hold the line at 0%? I'm affraid it is business as usual.

[GXT]

From where I sit, this is nothing more than a bunch of fat cats whining about being deprived of their 'right' to this or their 'right' to that. As with everything wrong with our society, everyone is aware of their 'rights', but not their 'responsibilities.' The 'rich' always off-shore their money while the rest of us have to pay the bills.

You are currently arguing that the "rich" have a moral responsibility to pay GM an extra 6K on an Impala???

That is nonsensical, and therefore from where I sit you are spitting all kinds of crap to protect your income. I get that. I don't want you to lose your level of income. But if the proper price changes happen you will do fine.

[CARBIZ]

You are currently arguing that the "rich" have a moral responsibility to pay GM an extra 6K on an Impala???

That is nonsensical, and therefore from where I sit you are spitting all kinds of crap to protect your income. I get that. I don't want you to lose your level of income. But if the proper price changes happen you will do fine.

There is not a $6k gap in price. I don't where you get your numbers from. Comparing MSRPs is useless. All the manufacturers are manipulating the prices on this side of the border with 'incentives.' Incentives from GM can lower the actual selling price of the Impala by $4k or more.

Again, get beyond the hype. Only the people with actual CASH to spend and on high end vehicles are getting any real advantages here. Nearly half the vehicles in this country are leased. I've seen figures that upwards of 90% of the vehicles aer either leased or financed - neither of which can be done in another country.

Anybody that pays CASH for an Impala is a fool. Plain and simple. Lock your $30k up for 5 years and use GMAC's 0% and make $5,700 at 3.5%.

[Factory]

The real problem here isn't that the salesmen in Canada are making less....it's that GM, FORD,etc are charging their regular prices TO THE DEALER. So, the reason you're a moron is because you actually think bitching to the salesman is going to get you somewhere.

When I was selling there was about 2200 between MSRP, and the "dealer net" that my commission was calculated from on an Impala LT (and the dealership MAY have to pay that price). Now, how the hell am I as a salesman supposed to give you 10,000 off?

You know, people hate salesmen too much to begin with. I quit selling because I was tired of the abuse customers dealt out. "f@#k off" was a not uncommon way for my greeting to be responded to. Everyone thinks they have so much information that they can "outsmart" the dealerships. Problem is, NONE of you people are smart enough to know that a dealer is a RETAILER of the cars...just like the corner 7-11. They have to buy them from the manufacturer...the fact that they pay for the car when it's sold is irrelevant, they still have the "cost" of the car to cover.

So, do all the salesmen a favour and save your bitching for someone who actually CAN do something about it....the manufacturers. I'm sure the sellers in your area would prefer you never showed up at thier lot, than go in there DEMANDING 10K off a car they can't even source for the price you want to pay.

Moron.

[GXT]

There is not a $6k gap in price. I don't where you get your numbers from. Comparing MSRPs is useless. All the manufacturers are manipulating the prices on this side of the border with 'incentives.' Incentives from GM can lower the actual selling price of the Impala by $4k or more.

From another post in this thread. I can't say I've cared to check myself, let alone to go to a GM dealership and ask.

Again, get beyond the hype. Only the people with actual CASH to spend and on high end vehicles are getting any real advantages here. Nearly half the vehicles in this country are leased. I've seen figures that upwards of 90% of the vehicles aer either leased or financed - neither of which can be done in another country.

It is true that taking advantage of financing is a big advantage for a buyer. But it is also true that the desirable cars don't have impressive financing rates to begin with. Nor does the fact that the Canadian automakers are using financing to screw people into paying a higher price make me feel any better about the situation.

Anybody that pays CASH for an Impala is a fool. Plain and simple. Lock your $30k up for 5 years and use GMAC's 0% and make $5,700 at 3.5%.

Anybody who buys an Impala is a fool... cash or otherwise. Actually it is a much better car than it used to be, but still not worth buying.

The good news is that the change is starting to happen:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/Business

http://www.thestar.com/Article/272502

Heh, Chrysler is now offering $9,000 in incentives on the 300C.

[GXT]

The real problem here isn't that the salesmen in Canada are making less....it's that GM, FORD,etc are charging their regular prices TO THE DEALER. So, the reason you're a moron is because you actually think bitching to the salesman is going to get you somewhere.

The real advantage here is that salesmen and dealerships are making less AND they have a direct line and affect on the automakers. And no, I don't think that bitching to the salesman is going to get ME anywhere at that moment, but it will help to eventually change things.

When I was selling there was about 2200 between MSRP, and the "dealer net" that my commission was calculated from on an Impala LT (and the dealership MAY have to pay that price). Now, how the hell am I as a salesman supposed to give you 10,000 off?

You aren't. You are supposed to lose a sale. You are supposed to mention why to your sales manager. He is supposed to mention it to the dealership owner. He is supposed to bitch to the automaker. The automaker is supposed to lower prices.

If that doesn't happen then expect to continue to lose sales.

I did the same thing at Sears the other day. 2,000 for an induction cooktop from Sears Canada. The same model is 1,440 from Sears US. I pointed out the price difference and the saleperson said, "Ah, but that is Sears DOT com." And I said "Yes, that is true. But it shows me that the correct selling price for this item is 1,400-1,500 CDN. Buying now would be a mistake. I can wait.". Perhaps she was pissed that she lost (delayed?) a sale. It certainly isn't her fault. But I hope it makes it up the chain. That is much more effective than a letter to Sears.

Moron.

I think my argument is clear and logical. I'm sorry if you are so blinded by emotion that you can't see it.

[gg22]

Well done.. It a year or so a US purchased Corvette is going to be awfully hard for me to resist.

Good luck getting your US purchased Corvette into the country in a year. The only 2008 GM vehicle that can be imported is an Aveo. Have fun in your US purchased Aveo.

[gg22]

One of the big problems for Canadian dealers is how the media reports the growing number of imports. There was a recent Globe and Mail story about a poor fellow who couldn't import his new Z06 that he had bought in New Jersey. They reported a $30,000 price gap between the American and Canadian car. They listed the final sale price after dealer rebates as just over $72,000, and the equivalent Canadian car with options at $102,000. A $102,000 Z06 has an invoice price of around $87,000. There is also a $5000 rebate on the car bringing the price down to $82,000. Add in the $3000 worth of modifications to a Corvette and we're down to $79,000. Add shipping or travel expenses, plus import fees and we now have a $5000 price difference. If the media would report the true savings of importing a car, the public might not be willing to loose their warranty, and services from a local dealer for $5000. Sensational reporting sells newspapers, but it hurts the local car dealer a lot more.

[frogger]

Good luck getting your US purchased Corvette into the country in a year. The only 2008 GM vehicle that can be imported is an Aveo. Have fun in your US purchased Aveo.

Oh I wasn't planning on buying a new Vette smartass. I tend to buy 2 year old vehicles. Edited November 15, 2007 by frogger

[frogger]

If the media would report the true savings of importing a car, the public might not be willing to loose their warranty, and services from a local dealer for $5000. Sensational reporting sells newspapers, but it hurts the local car dealer a lot more.

If the Canadian dollar is 5% worth ~5% more than the US dollar, then add another $4000-$5000 on top of the $5000 price difference.

[GXT]

One of the big problems for Canadian dealers is how the media reports the growing number of imports. There was a recent Globe and Mail story about a poor fellow who couldn't import his new Z06 that he had bought in New Jersey. They reported a $30,000 price gap between the American and Canadian car. They listed the final sale price after dealer rebates as just over $72,000, and the equivalent Canadian car with options at $102,000. A $102,000 Z06 has an invoice price of around $87,000. There is also a $5000 rebate on the car bringing the price down to $82,000. Add in the $3000 worth of modifications to a Corvette and we're down to $79,000. Add shipping or travel expenses, plus import fees and we now have a $5000 price difference. If the media would report the true savings of importing a car, the public might not be willing to loose their warranty, and services from a local dealer for $5000. Sensational reporting sells newspapers, but it hurts the local car dealer a lot more.

http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/st...BN/ctv-business

Corvette Z06 1SA is 93,105 with delivery in Canada.

The 1LZ package in the US 71,000.

I don't understand why you use the Canadian invoice price but not the US invoice price. US buyers often get much better deals than Canadian buyers. If anything, you should use the US invoice price and not the Canadian one.

Even with the 3K in modifications and the 5K discount (assuming their is none in the US), the price difference is still in the $14K range... and that is without the tax savings of paying taxes on the less expensive vehicle from the US, or taking an extra 5% off the US price for higher value of the Canadian dollar.

Even with the automakers playing these games it is still worth the time. If you ask me, skip the automakers who are playing these games and offering too little too late and just go with a comany like BMW.

Edited November 15, 2007 by GXT

[CARBIZ]

http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/st...BN/ctv-business

Corvette Z06 1SA is 93,105 with delivery in Canada.

The 1LZ package in the US 71,000.

I don't understand why you use the Canadian invoice price but not the US invoice price. US buyers often get much better deals than Canadian buyers. If anything, you should use the US invoice price and not the Canadian one.

Even with the 3K in modifications and the 5K discount (assuming their is none in the US), the price difference is still in the $14K range... and that is without the tax savings of paying taxes on the less expensive vehicle from the US, or taking an extra 5% off the US price for higher value of the Canadian dollar.

Even with the automakers playing these games it is still worth the time. If you ask me, skip the automakers who are playing these games and offering too little too late and just go with a comany like BMW.

Well, good for you. I'm always happy to oblige people when they whine and bitch that they can't get what they want. Two Chevrolet dealers have closed in Toronto in as many weeks, more are on the chopping block and Lexus/BMW sales are at a standstill.

While YOU are at it, why don't you bring the entire Canadian economy down on its knees? We can just give up our healthcare, our public schools, ESL classes and everything else and just join Brazil, India and others at the bottom of the struggling pile of economies.

There is a reason tariffs and duties were erected at borders centuries ago. That was to protect investors who have INVESTED in a country from being hosed by unfair advantages that other countries have. The U.S. has the biggest advantage due to the size of its market. China has a huge manufacturing advantage due to the size of its labor force. If Canadians do not stick together, we will simply sink into Third World Status.

But GXT, your 'choice' is more important than people's jobs, right? If everyone shops south of the border, manufacturers their products in China, who the f@#k will have the money to buy anything anywhere? YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YOU?

I, for one, would rather pay DOUBLE for a toaster or pair of jeans made in Canada, then imported from China. I would also keep my business in Canada, in Toronto if possible, to support my local economy. But, hey, - that's just me. I happen to care about my neighbors and what is happening around me.

[gg22]

From the article.

He was also going to save more than $30,000. That's based on a price of $72,290 after a $5,500 rebate in Atlantic City, compared with $102,130 (Canadian) – including options – he figured on paying for the high-end Z06 model in Canada.

They are factoring in the rebate from the US. The Canadian dollar is trading at 1.03 US right now. How can an GM adjust for a dollar that fluctuates $0.10 in a week? GM is making every effort to keep Canadian buyers happy here. Like I said, is $5000 worth your warranty, roadside assistance, courtesy services from your local dealer, and supporting YOUR econemy?

[GXT]

I, for one, would rather pay DOUBLE for a toaster or pair of jeans made in Canada, then imported from China. I would also keep my business in Canada, in Toronto if possible, to support my local economy. But, hey, - that's just me. I happen to care about my neighbors and what is happening around me.

The other day I tried to get a stainless steel Panasonic microwave surround. I believe it was $140 from Amazon.com. But they wouldn't ship to Canada (seems to be Panasonic's policy). Instead I phoned around to the local shops. $199 is the Canadian price. So I paid the ~50% higher price. But it is on backorder in Canada so I continue to wait. This is good business?

I managed to find a lighting company in my city that gives 40% off Canadian retail. That happens to be about what I could get the lights for from the US (in spite of the French brochures, being in a very small market, paying Candian wages, <insert bull&#036;h&#33; excuse here>!). They have been around for decades. Business seems to be booming. They have lots of staff and they all seem to be excellent. They are getting thousands of dollars of business from me and I am happier than a pig in &#036;h&#33; to be treated fairly. I should have just paid 100% at the first lighting store I went to instead of being such a dick and shopping around. Clearly what they are doing is impossible and I am a jerk for even taking advantage of it.

[daves87rs]

Welcome back, old topic!

Still haven't heard anything about that lawsuit either...

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

The other day I tried to get a stainless steel Panasonic microwave surround. I believe it was $140 from Amazon.com. But they wouldn't ship to Canada (seems to be Panasonic's policy). Instead I phoned around to the local shops. $199 is the Canadian price. So I paid the ~50% higher price. But it is on backorder in Canada so I continue to wait. This is good business?

I managed to find a lighting company in my city that gives 40% off Canadian retail. That happens to be about what I could get the lights for from the US (in spite of the French brochures, being in a very small market, paying Candian wages, <insert bull&#036;h&#33; excuse here>!). They have been around for decades. Business seems to be booming. They have lots of staff and they all seem to be excellent. They are getting thousands of dollars of business from me and I am happier than a pig in &#036;h&#33; to be treated fairly. I should have just paid 100% at the first lighting store I went to instead of being such a dick and shopping around. Clearly what they are doing is impossible and I am a jerk for even taking advantage of it.

And I think the irony of the fact that the Panasonic microwave was Made in China is completely lost on you...............

[cdnsolman]

I, for one, would rather pay DOUBLE for a toaster or pair of jeans made in Canada, then imported from China. I would also keep my business in Canada, in Toronto if possible, to support my local economy. But, hey, - that's just me. I happen to care about my neighbors and what is happening around me.

The problem with your statement is that there are many Plants in Ontario Canada building the highest quality vehicles that are shipped to all of North America, and yet we are still paying more for them. They don't have to cross the border or anything. Canadian workers building Canadian cars in Canada for Americans. That's just as bad as us producing oil and manufacturing Gasoline in Alberta, and paying the 25% more at the pumps for it. They bend us over because our economy is high, but mostly because we let them.

Edited May 1, 2008 by cdnsolman

[CARBIZ]

Speaking on behalf of Toyota and GM (plus I know Chrysler has been dropping its prices like crazy lately), this lawsuit is frivolous. Another example of bored lawyers taking a crack at 'rich' companies.

Would you suppose that companies as large as GM and Toyota, with as many models and permuatations as they each offer, can just arbitrarily drop sticker prices just because the Canadian dollar - after 35 years of slumber mind you, has suddenly decided to wake up? Business models, budgets and forecasting is done two or three quarters, even years ahead. The $C only acheived parity about 10 months ago. As late as last May, so-called analysts weren't convinced it would acheive parity in 2007.

I don't see appliances yet on par with similar items sold in the U.S. We are, after all, different countries, with different franchise laws, different tax rules and, most of all, different costs in doing business. If a consumer is impatient enough that they feel the need to punish companies for not reacting to the perceived market quickly enough, then that certainly is their perogative; however, know this: in doing so, you are becoming part of the problem. As more money flees Canada, the government will just have to close more and more loopholes to keep the money here. As an aside, why do you think airlines now charge a 'fuel surcharge' on top of the price of the ticket? They cannot control the volatility of the price of jet fuel, can they?

Auto manufacturers have been responding to the $C's rise in a prudent manner, on a case by case basis. I've been leasing Cavaliers and Cobalts for nearly 12 years, and I can assure you that a loaded Cobalt now leases for about $30 a month less than a base Cavalier did 10 years ago. If a customer has cash (and I mean REAL cash, not a line of credit that floats with the prime rate) and feels the urge to drive across to Buffalo or Seattle and purchase a vehicle there, and if they have the gumption to pay all the taxes, fees and duties at the border on the way back, and their time is worth nothing to them - then that, too, is their perogative. You might save $1,200 on an Impala, but that is assuming you are using real cash. Since there is no such thing as real cash, that would be foolhardy don't you think?

My mutual funds have gone up $5,000 in 7 weeks on $120k invested. If I had a little more balls, I'd invest all my money in Latin American funds right now, not in crossing the border to MAYBE save $2,500 on a CTS.

[GXT]

And I think the irony of the fact that the Panasonic microwave was Made in China is completely lost on you...............

Apparently.

Canadians typically don't have this US hangup about where the money goes and who built the product. We buy pretty much everything from other countries and have for as long as I can remember.

[GXT]

Would you suppose that companies as large as GM and Toyota, with as many models and permuatations as they each offer, can just arbitrarily drop sticker prices just because the Canadian dollar - after 35 years of slumber mind you, has suddenly decided to wake up? Business models, budgets and forecasting is done two or three quarters, even years ahead. The $C only acheived parity about 10 months ago. As late as last May, so-called analysts weren't convinced it would acheive parity in 2007.

I believe the Canadian dollar has been rising for three years. During that time, at least for the cars that I am interested in, the MSRP has gone up EACH year. Oh sure, they play around with the rebates, but the price continues to go up.

Maybe I'm just used to buying imports and I'm not used to these rebate games, but I want to buy the car that I want to buy. If I want a G35 M6, I want to pay the US price of $33.4K, not $48K in Canada. What does Infiniti Canada offer? 4.5K off the G35x AWD. Do they have other deals? I don't know. One of the reasons I avoid domestics is to avoid these games.

I just don't understand how Canadian dealers think they will be able to get away with selling a 48K G35 when a new one is $33.4K. Do they think they can justify that forever? What about two years from now when a new G35 in Canada is probably 50K and a two year old version from the US will cost ~20,000?

Prices will come down in Canada one way or another. And anyone who buys now is paying too much.

I don't see appliances yet on par with similar items sold in the U.S.

Computer parts have been for a while now. As I said, I seem to be able to buy lighting on par.

We are, after all, different countries, with different franchise laws, different tax rules and, most of all, different costs in doing business. If a consumer is impatient enough that they feel the need to punish companies for not reacting to the perceived market quickly enough, then that certainly is their perogative; however, know this: in doing so, you are becoming part of the problem. As more money flees Canada, the government will just have to close more and more loopholes to keep the money here. As an aside, why do you think airlines now charge a 'fuel surcharge' on top of the price of the ticket? They cannot control the volatility of the price of jet fuel, can they?

All you do is make excuses. It is possible, companies are making the choice not to.

Your fuel analogy doesn't make sense to me. Fuel prices go up so the airlines pass the cost along. Got it. Canadian dollar goes up so the cost of goods in Canada should remain unchanged?

Auto manufacturers have been responding to the $C's rise in a prudent manner, on a case by case basis. I've been leasing Cavaliers and Cobalts for nearly 12 years, and I can assure you that a loaded Cobalt now leases for about $30 a month less than a base Cavalier did 10 years ago. If a customer has cash (and I mean REAL cash, not a line of credit that floats with the prime rate) and feels the urge to drive across to Buffalo or Seattle and purchase a vehicle there, and if they have the gumption to pay all the taxes, fees and duties at the border on the way back, and their time is worth nothing to them - then that, too, is their perogative. You might save $1,200 on an Impala, but that is assuming you are using real cash. Since there is no such thing as real cash, that would be foolhardy don't you think?

Maybe GM has been doing a better job of lowering prices. I think it is the lower priced vehicles in general that are closer to par. As I said, I don't have the time to play the games, but your $1,200 seems questionable based on the prices quoted earlier in this thread.

My mutual funds have gone up $5,000 in 7 weeks on $120k invested. If I had a little more balls, I'd invest all my money in Latin American funds right now, not in crossing the border to MAYBE save $2,500 on a CTS.

You make a good argument for Canadians to not buy cars. Save your money. Earn money on the investment. "Earn" money as Canadian prices drop. Give the automakers all the time they need to adjust prices. Buy now and prove that you are bad with your money.

[CARBIZ]

You seem to be insinuating that it is the dealers that are playing the games. It is not. With a margin of 5-9%, how much would you expect a dealer to discount an Aveo or CTS? It is the manufacturers that are holding all the marbles and it is THEY who have to maneuver the subtleties of franchise laws, international laws, trade agreements - and deal with the consequences if they guess wrong. I've seen first hand the blood bath that is happening with 3rd party leasing companies right now. It's a great time to buy a used BMW or Acura, let me tell you. Tons of 4 year old ones flooding the market with buy backs $15-$20k less than what the deals were written up at 4 years ago.

If you think the imports don't play games with the prices, then you are sadly mistaken, too. Ever see what they want to put a used Camry on the lot for, after trade in?

It's very easy for armchair critics to say multinationals should do this or they should not do that. One thing that is very difficult for us Canadians to accept is that we are viewed, at best, as a branch office to American subsidiaries. If we didn't share the same language and culture as the U.S., I doubt many of them would bother with our tiny market (see: Mexico). It certainly pisses me off, as someone who has to wave the Chevrolet flag every day, to also have to battle misconceptions and misinformation about the $C on top of everything else, but the fact that NONE of the auto manufacturers have a firm grasp on this issue yet is proof that there is no simple solution.

There are so many products and services that we Canadians must do without, or have to wait for. That's just the simple fact of living in a very big country with a very small population. How long did we have to wait for the iPhone to arrive here? Should we sue Apple? Look at all the blocks to American television programming, to preserve Canadian 'culture'. As a nation, if we are going to ask companies to do business here, in a climate that is more expensive for them to do business in, then they must be afforded some level of protection for their investments. That is what trade and treaty laws are all about. This is why the U.S. and Canada are each other's largest trading partners (although China is about to usurp us) and have been for centuries. However, we are still a sovereign country with our own laws, taxes and regulations.

But, as I said earlier, if you feel entitled to buying your import across the border and 'save' $$$, that is your perogative. But think about that, too, when your wife goes to emergency at 2 in the morning and you have to wait 4 hours for a doctor. The ripple effects of the couple grand you MAY save are pretty profound.

[saturnd00d]

I've just purchased an 08 Saturn Vue XE, and while I wholeheartedly agree that us Canadians pay too much, but I'd rather keep my warranty intact, and not have to deal with paying taxes on a new vehicle crossing the border, etc. Too much time and hassle. Oh, and I don't have "real cash" (like some of you may) to throw around. I am simply a family man, with the typical mortgage and other expenses. I waited to get my 0% for 5 years and am pretty happy with that. Sure I paid alot more here than in the U.S. but that's the price you pay for wanting to live here rather than there.

Hopefully during the time of my next purchase, prices are lowered to within 10% of the U.S. MSRP, however we Canadians have to realize that we are a smaller market than probably 1/5 of the U.S. and as such, for automakers to be profitable, they have to jack up prices here to adjust for the lack of sales North of the border.

In my opinion, those that have "real money" to throw around, go ahead, buy your CTS or Yukon Denali south of the border to save some cash, but you'll most likely pay some or even more than the difference back when you can't get anything honored under warranty and have to cover repairs out of your pocket, and/or when you have to pay taxes on the vehicle to register it. I don't have the time, money or patience for those games. To me, my time is better spent with my wife and newborn son.

Good luck to the rest of the Canucks on this board in your car purchases. I am good for another 6-7 years out of this one.

[daves87rs]

I've just purchased an 08 Saturn Vue XE, and while I wholeheartedly agree that us Canadians pay too much, but I'd rather keep my warranty intact, and not have to deal with paying taxes on a new vehicle crossing the border, etc. Too much time and hassle. Oh, and I don't have "real cash" (like some of you may) to throw around. I am simply a family man, with the typical mortgage and other expenses. I waited to get my 0% for 5 years and am pretty happy with that. Sure I paid alot more here than in the U.S. but that's the price you pay for wanting to live here rather than there.

Hopefully during the time of my next purchase, prices are lowered to within 10% of the U.S. MSRP, however we Canadians have to realize that we are a smaller market than probably 1/5 of the U.S. and as such, for automakers to be profitable, they have to jack up prices here to adjust for the lack of sales North of the border.

In my opinion, those that have "real money" to throw around, go ahead, buy your CTS or Yukon Denali south of the border to save some cash, but you'll most likely pay some or even more than the difference back when you can't get anything honored under warranty and have to cover repairs out of your pocket, and/or when you have to pay taxes on the vehicle to register it. I don't have the time, money or patience for those games. To me, my time is better spent with my wife and newborn son.

Good luck to the rest of the Canucks on this board in your car purchases. I am good for another 6-7 years out of this one.

Yeah, the warrenty issue could really suck...

[network engineer]

They'll be back..... when Bush is escorted out of the White House.

I'm always amused by comments like this, because they have no basis in reality.

So tell us then. How did Bush cause this and how will his removal from office fix it. Please be specific as I'm very curious. I was under the impression that the President signed bills into law that were designed by Congress and also ran the Army. I'm confused as to how, then that the President has negatively affected the economy. Which laws that Congress passed did the President sign into Law that have had this affect? I know he did the Tax cuts, but that resulted in a boost to the economy and have given the average family over $1000 in tax savings, so it's obviously not that. What was it that he did?

[CARBIZ]

Maybe these assclowns should sue the American and Canadian government while they're at it: I just paid $2 Canadian at the Sarnia crossing while Americans get to pay $1.50. How's that for a kick in the teeth? 33% more, yet the dollar has been virtually at par for over a year.

[GXT]

You seem to be insinuating that it is the dealers that are playing the games. It is not. With a margin of 5-9%, how much would you expect a dealer to discount an Aveo or CTS? It is the manufacturers that are holding all the marbles and it is THEY who have to maneuver the subtleties of franchise laws, international laws, trade agreements - and deal with the consequences if they guess wrong.

I didn't mean to imply it was the dealers fault. I think it is the manufcaturers that are to blame, but it is the dealers that are my link to the manufacturers.

If you think the imports don't play games with the prices, then you are sadly mistaken, too. Ever see what they want to put a used Camry on the lot for, after trade in?

No, of course not. Why would anyone look at a camry?? :AH-HA_wink: Actually, I meant on new cars. Traditionally the imports have been much more clear in that regard. But those times seem to be gone.

It's very easy for armchair critics to say multinationals should do this or they should not do that. One thing that is very difficult for us Canadians to accept is that we are viewed, at best, as a branch office to American subsidiaries. If we didn't share the same language and culture as the U.S., I doubt many of them would bother with our tiny market (see: Mexico). It certainly pisses me off, as someone who has to wave the Chevrolet flag every day, to also have to battle misconceptions and misinformation about the $C on top of everything else, but the fact that NONE of the auto manufacturers have a firm grasp on this issue yet is proof that there is no simple solution.

Yes there is a simple solution. Don't buy a vehicle from a Canadian dealer.

I noticed my co-worker put a for sale sign on his Jetta TDI. I thought that was strange as it is only 4 or 5 years old. He wants to trade up a year to get the newer body style. I asked him if he wasn't going to take a huge hit making a change like that. He was pretty sure he could sell his old Jetta in Canada for $6-7,000 more than he paid for it (and he said that he bought it when the C dollar was only 0.80 USD) , go down to the states and buy the newer Jetta and have money left over.

But, as I said earlier, if you feel entitled to buying your import across the border and 'save' $$$, that is your perogative. But think about that, too, when your wife goes to emergency at 2 in the morning and you have to wait 4 hours for a doctor. The ripple effects of the couple grand you MAY save are pretty profound.

What does automakers raping Canadians have to do with the availability of healthcare? Talk about blaming the victim. You'd better tell the Canadian government that you have the solution to our healthcare concerns: raise the price of all Cobalts by $5,000.

[GXT]

Yeah, the warrenty issue could really suck...

It is an issue.

However some manufacturers honour the warranty. Also, you can afford to pay for a lot of repairs if you have $20,000+ in your pocket. If you get even 5% on it you could afford $1,000/year in repairs at "no cost".

[CARBIZ]

..........and where exactly are you going to save $20k? Stop pulling figures out of your ass.

[GXT]

..........and where exactly are you going to save $20k? Stop pulling figures out of your ass.

As I wrote in post #73:

"Maybe I'm just used to buying imports and I'm not used to these rebate games, but I want to buy the car that I want to buy. If I want a G35 M6, I want to pay the US price of $33.4K, not $48K in Canada. What does Infiniti Canada offer? 4.5K off the G35x AWD. Do they have other deals? I don't know. One of the reasons I avoid domestics is to avoid these games.

I just don't understand how Canadian dealers think they will be able to get away with selling a 48K G35 when a new one is $33.4K. Do they think they can justify that forever? What about two years from now when a new G35 in Canada is probably 50K and a two year old version from the US will cost ~20,000?"

You could save $~30,000 if you bought a year or two old G35 M6 from the states as opposed to a new one in Canada.

PS. You read anything about this yet:

"Canadians imported 151,169 vehicles as of June 30, compared with 189,738 in all of 2007..."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/Business

Momentum is building.

[CARBIZ]

As I wrote in post #73:

"Maybe I'm just used to buying imports and I'm not used to these rebate games, but I want to buy the car that I want to buy. If I want a G35 M6, I want to pay the US price of $33.4K, not $48K in Canada. What does Infiniti Canada offer? 4.5K off the G35x AWD. Do they have other deals? I don't know. One of the reasons I avoid domestics is to avoid these games.

I just don't understand how Canadian dealers think they will be able to get away with selling a 48K G35 when a new one is $33.4K. Do they think they can justify that forever? What about two years from now when a new G35 in Canada is probably 50K and a two year old version from the US will cost ~20,000?"

You could save $~30,000 if you bought a year or two old G35 M6 from the states as opposed to a new one in Canada.

PS. You read anything about this yet:

"Canadians imported 151,169 vehicles as of June 30, compared with 189,738 in all of 2007..."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/Business

Momentum is building.

Momentum has died. The typical import buyer would sell their mother up the river to save $5, so naturally their sales figures would suffer first and foremost. The difference between a CTS here and in the U.S. is about $2,500. The Corvette comes with a base model in the States that is not available here, so when comparing apples to apples, the difference is probably around $5k. On cheaper models like the Cobalt and Aveo, the numbers are virtually identical, due to 0/72 financing.

By the time this court case sees the light of day, their entire exaggerated claim will have evaporated.

[GXT]

The typical import buyer would sell their mother up the river to save $5, so naturally their sales figures would suffer first and foremost.

Not sure what you are saying about the import sales suffering. Last I saw GM was way down, Toyota is way up, and Honda is running out of cars. That is likely why GM has dropped prices and Toyota/Honda haven't.

June 2008

GM -23.8%

Ford -13.7%

Toyota +8.8%

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/07/02/j...os.html?ref=rss

So does that mean the typical domestic buyer would sell their mother up the river to save $5? I had heard they were less educated and were of a lower socio-economic status but I didn't know they were cheap as well. Well, maybe I suspected. :AH-HA_wink:

The difference between a CTS here and in the U.S. is about $2,500. The Corvette comes with a base model in the States that is not available here, so when comparing apples to apples, the difference is probably around $5k. On cheaper models like the Cobalt and Aveo, the numbers are virtually identical, due to 0/72 financing.

GM has done a good job of equalizing prices. I'd actually consider test driving a CTS if it looks like GM will be around to honour the warranty.

By the time this court case sees the light of day, their entire exaggerated claim will have evaporated.

That would be nice. However I still haven't seen the movement on Toyota/Honda.

[CARBIZ]

Not sure what you are saying about the import sales suffering. Last I saw GM was way down, Toyota is way up, and Honda is running out of cars. That is likely why GM has dropped prices and Toyota/Honda haven't.

June 2008

GM -23.8%

Ford -13.7%

Toyota +8.8%

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/07/02/j...os.html?ref=rss

So does that mean the typical domestic buyer would sell their mother up the river to save $5? I had heard they were less educated and were of a lower socio-economic status but I didn't know they were cheap as well. Well, maybe I suspected. :AH-HA_wink:

GM has done a good job of equalizing prices. I'd actually consider test driving a CTS if it looks like GM will be around to honour the warranty.

That would be nice. However I still haven't seen the movement on Toyota/Honda.

In your earlier post, you were mentioning luxury cars. According to Desrosiers.com:

June '08 Acura -15.3

Audi - 13.6

Landrover - 30

Porsche -13

I would suggest this is because all the people who HAD money, went south last year and made their purchases and now the Canadian sales are stagnating, or with all the job losses in Ontario, nobody has the money for these cars any more.

Or maybe stats are BS, because Acura went from 1,890 sales last June to 1,600 this June: about what GM sells in a couple days. When your numbers are low, statistical swings can be impressive.

As to my remark about the degree of education amongst import humpers: when Mark Richardson (the so-called editor of the Toyota Star's Wheels section) coaches his ancient mother to buy a Corolla, even though she loved her 10 year old Cavalier and didn't want to drive 50 miles out of her way to the nearest Toyota store, and he broadcasts that in the paper (because he is the boss, after all) - well, you have to wonder whether the lunatics have taken over the asylum or not.

Knock on any door in Rosedale and ask the owner of that shiny, new BMW X5 in the driveway how much horse power it has, or even how many cylinders and I guarantee you will be chilled by the response. Or lack of.