2008 Saturn Astra Drive - Edmunds

[enzl]

what is "USP"?

At one point, I thought they talked like they would make a small profit on the imported Astras... granted, that depends a LOT on the exchange rate, and that may have turned small profit into small loss since the plan to bring them over first came up...

I guess what I'm seeing is those looking at it from a "this was a cheap good product to give Saturn for a couple years, GM is tight on funds, they can't afford to spend a lot more", while you're saying "they can't afford NOT to make even better product than this." Personally, I think it would have been a waste to spend a lot more on developing a car that will only be around two, maybe three years until it's replaced. More could have been spent - on the radio, for example. And I agree about the cupholders - we'll be hearing people complain about that for years. I still hear people complain about no cupholders in the first gen s-series. What I do hear overwhelmingly, though, is people LOVING the Astra as-is. I'm not sure we can cry too much about this car being a mistake when most of what's being said about the car is very positive.

Unique Selling Point (or Proposition if you're British).

It's a good, but not great product. You're going to lose money. Build cost is higher in Europe than under the new Union deal, and you're importing them into a weakening dollar. GM has reported losing 1-3k on EACH compact they made in the States!---add oceanic shipping to that for the Astra. They couldn't have reshaped the ION's plastic panels (its UMP) for $750/car?

At the same time....Might as well go small-premium at 40K/year. Think cut-rate C70. Or a crazy canopy available on the 3 dr. like in the EU. Both could command prices higher than the current Astra---and, if you want to maintain volume, rebody the ION for LESS than you're losing on the Astra.

There's still a strong, silent fanbase of the original S sedans looking for $14-17K Corolla-stomping plastic flyers....all the basics were in place to keep the Ion morphed into a modern-ish Neon---hell. if they didn't sell here, they could ship 'em overseas because of the weak dollar!

I'm not trying to pick on the Astra, I just think some of GM's decisions are strange, IMO.

Edited January 12, 2008 by enzl

[PurdueGuy]

Unique Selling Point (or Proposition if you're British).

It's a good, but not great product. You're going to lose money. Build cost is higher in Europe than under the new Union deal, and you're importing them into a weakening dollar. GM has reported losing 1-3k on EACH compact they made in the States!---add oceanic shipping to that for the Astra. They couldn't have reshaped the ION's plastic panels (its UMP) for $750/car?

At the same time....Might as well go small-premium at 40K/year. Think cut-rate C70. Or a crazy canopy available on the 3 dr. like in the EU. Both could command prices higher than the current Astra---and, if you want to maintain volume, rebody the ION for LESS than you're losing on the Astra.

There's still a strong, silent fanbase of the original S sedans looking for $14-17K Corolla-stomping plastic flyers....all the basics were in place to keep the Ion morphed into a modern-ish Neon---hell. if they didn't sell here, they could ship 'em overseas because of the weak dollar!

I'm not trying to pick on the Astra, I just think some of GM's decisions are strange, IMO.

Last I knew GM reported making a small profit on the Cobalt, and that was before the new union deal (is the Cobalt assembled in the US? I was thinking it is.) As far as new panels for the Ion... I like the Ion ok, and I think it gets an unfair amount of bashing... but let's face it - it's not near the car the Astra is in driving dynamics, safety, or refinement, and it had a pretty tainted image with the media and much of the public. New panels wouldn't have changed that. Total cost of either direction... who knows. Maybe they would have been ahead financially to reskin the Ion.

I think the true emphasis, though, is on the next gen Astra. GM is now justified in putting that much more emphasis on making it an awesome vehicle, and you can bet they'll be making it far more US-friendly. I hope to see it assembled stateside to a) make Saturn owners proud that it's made on their continent - an original hallmark of Saturn, and b) avoid exchange rate issues. It should be ready to sell in higher volumes and at a profit, even if that means the price tag moves upward a little more over the current Astra if need be. And that's a big deal - people are having a little sticker shock going from the Ion to current Astra... how much worse would that be if the next gen has to be priced a little higher still, and they went from an Ion to an even more expensive Astra?

[2QuickZ's]

The Lucerne was 'good enough'---how's that selling now?

Better than the Avalon?

[thegriffon]

To avoid exchange rate issues they are building the hatchbacks in Poland (zloty instead of Euro) next time around. Although Poland will start building the next sedan sooner they aren't exporting it to the US. Either it's made in Mexico or not coming.

[regfootball]

You guys don't get it...You'll sell all of these (at a loss)...so this car is, in essence, a rolling billboard for what GM can do....instead of grabbing a few converts or easy sales, how about converting those that have turned their back on the domestic nameplates? You do that with USP, great styling & a strong word-of-mouth from those that know cars---the Astra isn't quite there. that's all I'm saying.

And, Reg, it's painful how ignorant you are about the market. The Civic sells 300k+ yr.--that's certainly NOT all ricers or under 30's...The Civic is a bold (and admittedly somewhat polarizing) design in a conservative sector. Unlike Toyota, Honda took a chance---and let's not forget, the Civic is efficient, roomy & along with the 3, a true handler in certain guises.

The Lucerne was 'good enough'---how's that selling now? Or the Theta's, which can't keep up their #'s in a market running to CUV's.

Continue, young ostriches. It's not simply USB ports or cupholders...It's a 1.8 when 2.0 DI is on the shelf. It's the lack of an IRS, it's the 4 speed auto, it's the coal-bin interior, the fact this is an old product in Europe, the fact they'll lose $ on each one, the fact that they can't provide enough to cover the meager volume of the Ion's last year...or NO USP: No diesel availability here, no 'vert, no canopy windshield....the list is endless.

Another 'just miss' opportunity....and if the Saturn dealer network can't sell 40k in a space they once sold 200k+ vehicles, then it's time to euthanize the brand.

oh you are so full of $h!. we all know the civic only sells because of the big fuking H on the grille. honda could poop on a piece of bread and put a monroney on it and lesbians and uptight celibate housewives and ricers and liberal urbanites would still line up to buy it because of the H ON THE GRILLE

the current civic leads in virtually no aspect in its class but still sells on reputation.

ugly expensive torqueless but people buy em. the mazda 3 and vw products are the class of the field. they deserve to sell much more.

saturn is probably going to sell more astras at retail than ions had been selling and overall saturn dealers with a full line will likely sell more vehicles total than in the say when s series sold 200k per year. the part you need to ingest is there are way many more competitors these days that GM has to battle. so saturn can't put all its eggs on one car. so they had to diversify the product line.

so when saturn actually does sell more astras retail then ions the dealers will be happy also.

saturn is set up for the next new product wave in 2 years or so and the whole lineup will become even more competitive.

i would say aside from cupholders and mp3's and bluetooth and gadgets, that engine power is really the only flaw the astra has.

Edited January 13, 2008 by regfootball

[PurdueGuy]

i would say aside from cupholders and mp3's and bluetooth and gadgets, that engine power is really the only flaw the astra has.

+1, though I do admit to being a little jealous of some of the features the euro Astra gets (panoramic windshield is awesome).

[enzl]

Better than the Avalon?

And off more than 50% vs. old LeSabre #'s & even worse when you consider it replaced that & the PA...and the last time I checked, Toyota was selling a couple more Camry's than the LaCrosse...

I also must note that when ever you guys take one of my fifteen points out of context, I must have been spot on with the rest---How about coming up with ideas instead of nit-picking mine?

Edited January 13, 2008 by enzl

[enzl]

oh you are so full of $h!. we all know the civic only sells because of the big fuking H on the grille. honda could poop on a piece of bread and put a monroney on it and lesbians and uptight celibate housewives and ricers and liberal urbanites would still line up to buy it because of the H ON THE GRILLE

the current civic leads in virtually no aspect in its class but still sells on reputation.

ugly expensive torqueless but people buy em. the mazda 3 and vw products are the class of the field. they deserve to sell much more.

saturn is probably going to sell more astras at retail than ions had been selling and overall saturn dealers with a full line will likely sell more vehicles total than in the say when s series sold 200k per year. the part you need to ingest is there are way many more competitors these days that GM has to battle. so saturn can't put all its eggs on one car. so they had to diversify the product line.

so when saturn actually does sell more astras retail then ions the dealers will be happy also.

saturn is set up for the next new product wave in 2 years or so and the whole lineup will become even more competitive.

i would say aside from cupholders and mp3's and bluetooth and gadgets, that engine power is really the only flaw the astra has.

Honda makes GREAT small & Medium sized cars...4 cylinder Fits, Civics & Accords are, generally speaking, at the top of their respective classes...they're safe, efficient & fun to drive.

You need to get off the Kool Aid Reg and see what's going on in the real world of auto retailing. Until the Aura & 'bu showed up, GM hasn't HAD a credible competitor in these sectors--basically ever.

Honda's reputation may sell lots of cars, but that only furthers MY points regarding the need for GM to put out products that top the best in the field, rather than introing also-rans.

If you read my posts carefully (or were capable of it), you'd see that I was suggesting a different way to go---and if you don't think there are a number of Saturn fans unhappy with the upmarket push & loss of plastic panels, you haven't taken a glance at any of their fan sites or spoken to a Saturn dealer (our region lost one & is in the process of losing another.)

As far as selling Astras---they'll sell every one, but that's limited to 40k or so---each one sold at a loss.

Oh, and Newsflash: Saturn HAS a revamped lineup of vehicles---in fact, they've basically doubled the product line in 3 yrs.---and sales are up 7% for the 2007 Calendar year---the Aura is selling at 50% of projections, the Vue is barely matching the old one, the Ion is being fazed out (500 sold last month), the Outlook is a slow seller and the Sky is a low volume product. So, as it stands, the dramatic uptick in sales has yet to materialize for Saturn. Could it be that the old S-series loyalist has no option when he walks into a Saturn store?

Again, because you're a little slow: I never said the Astra is a bad product, it just isn't enough of a good one in many respects. The Civic sells because it meets the needs of many commuters, families and, in some cases, ricers...but it's more efficient, roomier, safer, more reliable and a default choice because people have had positive historical experience with Honda---thus likely better than the Astra, but more importantly, a much easier sell.

Have you looked at GM's sales figures recently? They need to sell something other than CTS' and 'bu's to HOPE to survive.

Edited January 13, 2008 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

The Lucerne was 'good enough'---how's that selling now? Or the Theta's, which can't keep up their #'s in a market running to CUV's.

Lucerne is selling better than anything in it's class other than the Chrysler 300 which has a much lower base price and a much higher loaded price.

Thetas are also some of the oldest on the market. There are new entries from Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Ford (2), Nissan, heck even the Dodge Nitro is newer.

They did well while they were new and now it's time to replace them. Simple as that.

[Drew Dowdell]

I also must note that when ever you guys take one of my fifteen points out of context, I must have been spot on with the rest---How about coming up with ideas instead of nit-picking mine?

it's usually because your posts are so all over the place we only have the energy to respond to your most off points.

[CARBIZ]

Lucerne is selling better than anything in it's class other than the Chrysler 300 which has a much lower base price and a much higher loaded price.

Thetas are also some of the oldest on the market. There are new entries from Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Ford (2), Nissan, heck even the Dodge Nitro is newer.

They did well while they were new and now it's time to replace them. Simple as that.

This point is not to be missed. The GM logo is up in the board room of every Japanese manufacturer - you can bet on that. They have had a target on Detroit for 2 decades. Death by a thousand blows? I will give Japan Inc. credit for their excellent strategic planning and we in North America deserve every job loss, every drop in currency and every sag in our standard of living.

It takes a genius company to shovel the $h!, but it also takes a willing customer to swallow it.

[enzl]

it's usually because your posts are so all over the place we only have the energy to respond to your most off points.

Really?

For someone who feels that way, you seem to spend some time following my every post....

[regfootball]

Honda makes GREAT small & Medium sized cars...4 cylinder Fits, Civics & Accords are, generally speaking, at the top of their respective classes...they're safe, efficient & fun to drive.

You need to get off the Kool Aid Reg and see what's going on in the real world of auto retailing. Until the Aura & 'bu showed up, GM hasn't HAD a credible competitor in these sectors--basically ever.

Honda's reputation may sell lots of cars, but that only furthers MY points regarding the need for GM to put out products that top the best in the field, rather than introing also-rans.

If you read my posts carefully (or were capable of it), you'd see that I was suggesting a different way to go---and if you don't think there are a number of Saturn fans unhappy with the upmarket push & loss of plastic panels, you haven't taken a glance at any of their fan sites or spoken to a Saturn dealer (our region lost one & is in the process of losing another.)

As far as selling Astras---they'll sell every one, but that's limited to 40k or so---each one sold at a loss.

Oh, and Newsflash: Saturn HAS a revamped lineup of vehicles---in fact, they've basically doubled the product line in 3 yrs.---and sales are up 7% for the 2007 Calendar year---the Aura is selling at 50% of projections, the Vue is barely matching the old one, the Ion is being fazed out (500 sold last month), the Outlook is a slow seller and the Sky is a low volume product. So, as it stands, the dramatic uptick in sales has yet to materialize for Saturn. Could it be that the old S-series loyalist has no option when he walks into a Saturn store?

Again, because you're a little slow: I never said the Astra is a bad product, it just isn't enough of a good one in many respects. The Civic sells because it meets the needs of many commuters, families and, in some cases, ricers...but it's more efficient, roomier, safer, more reliable and a default choice because people have had positive historical experience with Honda---thus likely better than the Astra, but more importantly, a much easier sell.

Have you looked at GM's sales figures recently? They need to sell something other than CTS' and 'bu's to HOPE to survive.

i could paint your diatribe on the wall and set it to contemporary jazz and it would still be blather.....blah blah blah.

let's go back and review.

you clearly cannot see what GM has done here. again, dike plugging. a new model for 100 million in development costs to replace a car that heavily tarnished the brand.

first off, what is the biggest selling small car in europe (if not the, its one of the best)? Isn't it the astra? Oh, so the biggest (or one of the biggest) and best small cars from europe is not good enough here to sell as an emergency replacement of the Ion? Outsells the civic in europe, no? It's good enough for picky Europeans but not good enough for clannish Americans?

Jesus Christ.

Had GM had the cash in time of near bankruptcy, they may have been able to shorten the Ions tenure and develop an all new global small car to sell. They couldn't fit the bill and were in a process of globalizing their operations. Saturns future was uncertain. So, as an emergency effort to rid the Ion from their showroom, they federalized a few Astras to bring over here. It upgrades the product greatly and offers a segment entry that arguable is the most stylish, has euro driving dynamics, and establishes a reputation for the brand that is Astra. It changes the perception of the Saturn small car in a pretty quick order.

How many Tundras (turds) did toyota sell at a loss or reduced volume until they established it in the market for growing sales? Tundra has never been and still is not a class leader but they have been able to grow the tundra brand.

Besides, we've seen all the largely good press for Astra, and the euros seem to make it one of their favorites and yet its still not good enough FOR YOU. Toyota dumps Prius at a loss for image and brand but Saturn can't.

half a million camrys are sold but that certainly does not invalidate how good the other mid size entrants are.

If i recall, we are about 18-24 months from the next Astra. I guess 4 years ago GM should have dropped everything else they were doing and spent about 6 billion on a new Saturn, because the civic is such a cool car. which its not. and the corolla is so awesome. which its not.

Saturns plastic body panel whiners will get over it. Saturn could still make one model to appease that bunch, but plastic panels never saved saturn, and never will. Honda's sheep are so many, saturn could rebadge a civic and it still wouldn't make a dent in sales. Honda could put an H on a Kia and it would still sell like it does. Why? the H.

The civic was so great it cannot even beat out the mazda or VW yet it still outsells both. You bitch about the Astra not being good enough, yet the Mazda and Vw are both better than the civic and civic still outsells them. one reason. sheep. lemmings.

it would be safe to say many of those civic buyers never even went to another showroom. I can personally attest to this as a friend bought one about 6 months ago. He went in loooking for a hybrid, got spooked by the overcharge, and simply settled for the non-hybrid. he hates car shopping, and wouldn't even look at any of the other cars because consumer reports and internet articles told him honda was the best.

Astra=reestablishing the quality level of the saturn small car which the Ion lost and was also lost because the crappy S series was never updated.

i guess you can say honda's cars are great if your own personal standard is dull appliances with buzzy torqueless motors.

Edited January 13, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

i could paint your diatribe on the wall and set it to contemporary jazz and it would still be blather.....blah blah blah.

let's go back and review.

you clearly cannot see what GM has done here. again, dike plugging. a new model for 100 million in development costs to replace a car that heavily tarnished the brand.

first off, what is the biggest selling small car in europe (if not the, its one of the best)? Isn't it the astra? Oh, so the biggest (or one of the biggest) and best small cars from europe is not good enough here to sell as an emergency replacement of the Ion? Outsells the civic in europe, no? It's good enough for picky Europeans but not good enough for clannish Americans?

Jesus Christ.

Had GM had the cash in time of near bankruptcy, they may have been able to shorten the Ions tenure and develop an all new global small car to sell. They couldn't fit the bill and were in a process of globalizing their operations. Saturns future was uncertain. So, as an emergency effort to rid the Ion from their showroom, they federalized a few Astras to bring over here. It upgrades the product greatly and offers a segment entry that arguable is the most stylish, has euro driving dynamics, and establishes a reputation for the brand that is Astra. It changes the perception of the Saturn small car in a pretty quick order.

How many Tundras (turds) did toyota sell at a loss or reduced volume until they established it in the market for growing sales? Tundra has never been and still is not a class leader but they have been able to grow the tundra brand.

Besides, we've seen all the largely good press for Astra, and the euros seem to make it one of their favorites and yet its still not good enough FOR YOU. Toyota dumps Prius at a loss for image and brand but Saturn can't.

half a million camrys are sold but that certainly does not invalidate how good the other mid size entrants are.

If i recall, we are about 18-24 months from the next Astra. I guess 4 years ago GM should have dropped everything else they were doing and spent about 6 billion on a new Saturn, because the civic is such a cool car. which its not. and the corolla is so awesome. which its not.

Saturns plastic body panel whiners will get over it. Saturn could still make one model to appease that bunch, but plastic panels never saved saturn, and never will. Honda's sheep are so many, saturn could rebadge a civic and it still wouldn't make a dent in sales. Honda could put an H on a Kia and it would still sell like it does. Why? the H.

The civic was so great it cannot even beat out the mazda or VW yet it still outsells both. You bitch about the Astra not being good enough, yet the Mazda and Vw are both better than the civic and civic still outsells them. one reason. sheep. lemmings.

it would be safe to say many of those civic buyers never even went to another showroom. I can personally attest to this as a friend bought one about 6 months ago. He went in loooking for a hybrid, got spooked by the overcharge, and simply settled for the non-hybrid. he hates car shopping, and wouldn't even look at any of the other cars because consumer reports and internet articles told him honda was the best.

Astra=reestablishing the quality level of the saturn small car which the Ion lost and was also lost because the crappy S series was never updated.

i guess you can say honda's cars are great if your own personal standard is dull appliances with buzzy torqueless motors.

Safe to say your bias against Honda leaves you in complete denial about the quality of their products.... & GM claims the Astra had $100 million in costs, but not what the Federalization costs actually were, nor why it needed extensive modification when the Delta's are related...BTW-if the 100m # is to be believed, then 2 years of production will also have another $1,250/each in costs, baked right in...

IS the Corolla a rehash?...yes. Honda regularly reinvents the compact class.....and I stand by my statement that the Fit/Civic/Accord lineup is better than anyone elses.

And, the Astra is Europe's Corolla, man. Avg. to Good product that sells well. As you like to site with the Camry, sales mean nothing about the true quality of the product, right?

In the end, GM needs revenue...I would have taken a different path, but that's what makes horse races...Now, of course, you ignored the fact that Saturn's new product isn't selling well, GM is limited as to volume of the Astra --so higher priced versions may have been smarter. and, of course, you used the ever-so-convincing personal anecdote to prove that your point is right---

Keep up the Kool-Aid...you're gonna need it---

Edited January 13, 2008 by enzl

[CARBIZ]

Both of you are talking around each other. BACK INTO YOUR CORNERS OR I WILL SPANK YOU BOTH! Enzl, you seem to dump all over everything GM does. Reg makes good points about the Astra being good enough for the Euros. We don't sell the damned thing and I've had too many people ask me about them already!

Lutz had a mess to contend with, no one is arguing that. He has avoided the iceberg, so far. Everything he has had his hand in for the past couple years have been bullseyes, but GM doesn't have limitless development money. I think Astra will do a fine job for Saturn until the real replacement comes along, and GM can get back to the business of worrying about the next Equinox, Cobalt, Aveo, G6........................

[enzl]

Both of you are talking around each other. BACK INTO YOUR CORNERS OR I WILL SPANK YOU BOTH! Enzl, you seem to dump all over everything GM does. Reg makes good points about the Astra being good enough for the Euros. We don't sell the damned thing and I've had too many people ask me about them already!

Lutz had a mess to contend with, no one is arguing that. He has avoided the iceberg, so far. Everything he has had his hand in for the past couple years have been bullseyes, but GM doesn't have limitless development money. I think Astra will do a fine job for Saturn until the real replacement comes along, and GM can get back to the business of worrying about the next Equinox, Cobalt, Aveo, G6........................

I've said positive things about positive moves...and the rest of their decision-making is weak, IMO.

AS we've argued about before, I'm for more extreme measures, but current mgmt. is on half-speed.

We'll see who is right in a shrinking, anti-truck marketplace....I predict another disproportionate loss in sales and thus, marketshare....

[2QuickZ's]

And off more than 50% vs. old LeSabre #'s & even worse when you consider it replaced that & the PA...and the last time I checked, Toyota was selling a couple more Camry's than the LaCrosse...

I also must note that when ever you guys take one of my fifteen points out of context, I must have been spot on with the rest---How about coming up with ideas instead of nit-picking mine?

Personally, I don't see the need to respond to every one of your points or posts. I apparently don't have as much free time as you do.

Besides, I prefer to sit back and read your posts and be amused. They are always so insightful because they never contain opinion, only fact. You seem to be the only intelligent person on this board and you also don't seem to have any sort of agenda so that helps me trust everything you say. There is simply no way possible anybody else on this site (or in this world?) could have an intelligent thought other than you!

Edited January 14, 2008 by 2QuickZ's

[regfootball]

this is why honda sells so many cars? hahahahaha

at least we didn't get this.......

the civic exterior pays nice homage to the Ion, like so many other cars do today.

i suppose this wouldn't even be good enough......there's no H on the front

http://www.km77.com/marcas/opel/2005/astra/opc/g01.asp

The '08 Saturn Astra doesn't change the game; instead, it just plays it very, very well.

-edmunds

it's good that honda is selling all those fits and civics. i wonder if those sales gains make up for the big acura losses lately. to me it just suggests a lot of acura fans home equity lines ran out and now they are stuck driving fits and civics.........good for honda, those small cars are soooo profitable........

Edited January 14, 2008 by regfootball

[CARBIZ]

I don't mind the Civic...in fact, I am embarassed to admit that I like it. To sit in one and drive it is to appreciate its strong points. It does not deserve the sales it gets, especially in view of the questionable quality of the previous generation Civics, but the public is fickle and it remembers the 'classic' Civics and conveniently ignores the shortcomings of the later ones. I even drove a Yaris the other day and even though the inside is plasticky and cheap, the ride was okay. My view is a little different than many on this board: I don't hate small, FWD vehicles. I think they are the future and need not be the dreaded memories of the past (think first generation J-car, Escort, Omni). I also drove a '04 Prius on Friday (the beige interior color is HORRIBLE), but the car has a lot of things to like about it.

I have said this before: in a vacuum, the Mazda 3 is the car to beat, followed by the Civic and then the Cobalt. When price/features are included, I would put the Cobalt at #1, followed by the Mazda, then Civic. I don't even enter the Corolla in the equation: it is so over priced and under-powered that Toyota should be embarassed. The Fit is crappy. I would consider a Versa, but not the Fit. The Aveo WAS a far better first attempt than the Fit is.

We had all better start getting used to these vehicles and get used to being more objective about them. If we hit $150 a barrel of oil this year, as I have seen more than one article about recently, then we are going to see far more of these vehicles than Tahoes or Explorers.

[enzl]

Personally, I don't see the need to respond to every one of your points or posts. I apparently don't have as much free time as you do.

Besides, I prefer to sit back and read your posts and be amused. They are always so insightful because they never contain opinion, only fact. You seem to be the only intelligent person on this board and you also don't seem to have any sort of agenda so that helps me trust everything you say. There is simply no way possible anybody else on this site (or in this world?) could have an intelligent thought other than you!

It's an OPINION board. And, as one of the few remaining dissidents, I become your punching bag when I choose to explain my position. Perhaps if GM had identified a few more of the strengths of their competition they wouldn't be in the position they're in--one financial meltdown away from destruction?

Nah, people like you would rather blame those that think differently--sounds alot like our President---see how that worked out for him, huh? (You probably don't get past the 'funnies' in the paper)

How about leaving the conversation to the adults in the room?

Participate (and actually risk something) or leave the personal attacks alone. What frightens me is that I may be the smartest person on this site--and I'm not that smart, brother. Nothing like a random personal attack to make you look smarter, however!

My agenda is to make GM better, BTW, by refusing to aid and abet their mediocrity. Others here clearly feel differently---and I'm OK with their 'agenda'.

Edited January 14, 2008 by enzl

[enzl]

this is why honda sells so many cars? hahahahaha

at least we didn't get this.......

the civic exterior pays nice homage to the Ion, like so many other cars do today.

i suppose this wouldn't even be good enough......there's no H on the front

http://www.km77.com/marcas/opel/2005/astra/opc/g01.asp

-edmunds

it's good that honda is selling all those fits and civics. i wonder if those sales gains make up for the big acura losses lately. to me it just suggests a lot of acura fans home equity lines ran out and now they are stuck driving fits and civics.........good for honda, those small cars are soooo profitable........

What should scare you is that they sell so many cars despite these interiors...It's a wonder what a positive rep can do for you....

[2QuickZ's]

It's an OPINION board. And, as one of the few remaining dissidents, I become your punching bag when I choose to explain my position. Perhaps if GM had identified a few more of the strengths of their competition they wouldn't be in the position they're in--one financial meltdown away from destruction?

Nah, people like you would rather blame those that think differently--sounds alot like our President---see how that worked out for him, huh? (You probably don't get past the 'funnies' in the paper)

How about leaving the conversation to the adults in the room?

Participate (and actually risk something) or leave the personal attacks alone. What frightens me is that I may be the smartest person on this site--and I'm not that smart, brother. Nothing like a random personal attack to make you look smarter, however!

My agenda is to make GM better, BTW, by refusing to aid and abet their mediocrity. Others here clearly feel differently---and I'm OK with their 'agenda'.

I like how you somehow know something about me from the 45 whole posts I've made on this message board. I also like how sensitive you seem to be to my "personal" attack which was really nothing more than a response to your post implying everybody but you is an idiot that is incapable of thinking clearly. Perhaps I misinterpreted what the intent of your post was and overreacted. I guess when the majority of those who post don't agree with your position, I can understand why it would get tiring and you would get sensitive. I'll keep that in mind in my future posts as it typically is not my intent to "personally" attack anyone.

As for me, you really don't know anything about me or what I think. If you'd like to know a few things, here goes:

- I think our current president is an idiot and always have. I'm also an independent voter capable of deciding who is the best candidate for me without a specific political party for whom I've pledge my allegiance to making my decision for me.

- I agree that most of the problems that haunt GM today were there own doing

- I don't apologize for bad product they currently make but I do believe credit should be given for improvements when that credit is warranted

- I actually do agree with you on some of the points you make, but I also think that sometimes you are so blindly one sided (the same thing you've accused many others of?), you can't see the forest for the trees. Rome wasn't built in a day just like GM's reputation wasn't destroyed in a day and won't be turned around in a day.

While I am very interested in the auto industry as a whole (it pays my bills much as it does yours), I'm mostly on this message board for entertainment.

I hope that helps you understand me a little better, if you care!

I'll let this thread get back on track now. If you'd like to further this conversation, I'd be happy to do it through PM.

Edited January 14, 2008 by 2QuickZ's

[buyacargetacheck]

How is it that the Civic and Corolla absolutely trounce this thing in fuel economy? All three are C class cars and sport 1.8L engines. Hell, even the Cobalt with a 2.2L about matches the Astra. Lower NVH coupled with high fuel economy are what set Civic and Corolla apart from lesser-engineered cars. The boys at Opel should try again.

[regfootball]

What should scare you is that they sell so many cars despite these interiors...It's a wonder what a positive rep can do for you....

see, that's what gives it away right there. even you admit the car sells basically on rep and H on the grille and yet GM puts a car out that is clearly a class player and is an upgrade from the previous model and you don't acknowledge the good it is doing for Saturn and GM.

If the Astra is break even, or loses a bit of money, etc........long term effect of its presence is far more positive and was determined at the time to be best best interim fix to get back on the small car bandwagon. I'd rather dwell on the things GM is trying to do to right the ship quickly, instead of doing what the journalists do, to bleat endlessly about the wrong doings in the past and consistently whipping a beaten child until it bleeds when the child is in fact worth saving.

This is my point on the car. Sure it still has some segment weaknesses but dammit its in the top 1/3 of the segment for sure, and sets the stage for the next big move in just two short years.

[PurdueGuy]

Hell, even the Cobalt with a 2.2L about matches the Astra.

There's a surprise - a car with about the same weight and same horsepower and an engine from the same family (ecotec) gets about the same fuel economy? Who'da thunk?

The boys at Opel should try again.

They are - it's called the next gen, and it's coming.

[Z-06]

Although you make valid points Enzl, I have one argument. If GM had invested billions in the new Delta platform and had come up with a damn good Astra, and just like the Outlook if it would have bombed, what would you do? Perhaps people would blame for putting that much dough in Saturn.

I like the current strategy of testing waters by investing only 100million dollars. If you factor them, they come out to be about 1,600 per car. That is cheap compared to developing a new platform which costs anywhere between 1.5-2.0 billion dollars and that does not include nuancing different brands, which can run anywhere between 100million to 500million. Although agreed that not all of the price would have been burdened by Saturn. And remember due to logistics the Delta 2 platform got delayed.

If this Astra bombs GM knows what to do tell those enviromental asswipes that they tried. If it is successful which I know it will be, people coming to the showroom in 2010 will be up for more than their expectations.

[regfootball]

And remember due to logistics the Delta 2 platform got delayed.

truth is GM didn't have global organizational structure in solid place until recently. the next delta is to be a true reflection of common platform. the next delta will be efficiently utilized on many continents and in many countries. at the time GM was considering how to fix the Ion debacle, GM risked spending a lot of time and effort on a unique solution yet again that cost way too much. In fact, we all recall the next gen Ion renderings that surfaced here on this site. That was to be a remod of the current platform, if which had carried through, would have meant the current ion guts would likely still have been for sale until like 2013 or something.

this is even similar to the ford thing with the focus. ford had no organizational functionality or confidence in the economics of it to be able to ably incorporate the eurofocus platform here. new car, new manufacturaing equipment, no organization, no concept of cost, etc. 'lets plug the hole for 2-3 years until we can regroup and get on the big wagon'.

Edited January 15, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

The Astra will sell every one they bring over...my biggest concern is over the direction of their efforts.

Saturn is being given every opportunity to succeed based on the psychographics that GM researched. In other words, Saturn possessed a very positive image (relative to other GM divisions) that someone at GM decided was worth developing. With a limited budget and timeframe, they've done an amazing job---but who has taken notice?

Sales do not reflect this effort....and the loss of the Ion's 100k in sales will further erode the volume. In the meanwhile, Pontiac, Buick & Chevy have lost new product---and sales. When GM regroups and gets to these shortfalls, we're talking another couple of model years...

That's where my criticism stems from...the Astra itself will do fine, but the federalization costs may have been better absorbed with unique versions, rather than a 3/5 door that can only demand so much of a premium--as for extending the life of the current ION, a few new plastic panels & an interior MCE that adopted the Cobalt's MCE (to share cost) might have gotten GM the remaining S-series fans that have been abandoned by the new direction.

[enzl]

Although you make valid points Enzl, I have one argument. If GM had invested billions in the new Delta platform and had come up with a damn good Astra, and just like the Outlook if it would have bombed, what would you do? Perhaps people would blame for putting that much dough in Saturn.

I like the current strategy of testing waters by investing only 100million dollars. If you factor them, they come out to be about 1,600 per car. That is cheap compared to developing a new platform which costs anywhere between 1.5-2.0 billion dollars and that does not include nuancing different brands, which can run anywhere between 100million to 500million. Although agreed that not all of the price would have been burdened by Saturn. And remember due to logistics the Delta 2 platform got delayed.

If this Astra bombs GM knows what to do tell those enviromental asswipes that they tried. If it is successful which I know it will be, people coming to the showroom in 2010 will be up for more than their expectations.

You may be right, but I think that the US $'s continued fall means that exchange rates will cost thousands/unit as well. The $1,600 we're both adding is, unfortunately, only the tip of the cost equation.

[Z-06]

You may be right, but I think that the US s continued fall means that exchange rates will cost thousands/unit as well. The $1,600 we're both adding is, unfortunately, only the tip of the cost equation.

That is where production in US or Mexico may make sense.

More than dollar falling it is the price of steel and aluminum that bothers me. Part of it is due to weak dollar, but the price of raw material is rising.

[regfootball]

The Astra will sell every one they bring over...my biggest concern is over the direction of their efforts.

Saturn is being given every opportunity to succeed based on the psychographics that GM researched. In other words, Saturn possessed a very positive image (relative to other GM divisions) that someone at GM decided was worth developing. With a limited budget and timeframe, they've done an amazing job---but who has taken notice?

Sales do not reflect this effort....and the loss of the Ion's 100k in sales will further erode the volume. In the meanwhile, Pontiac, Buick & Chevy have lost new product---and sales. When GM regroups and gets to these shortfalls, we're talking another couple of model years...

That's where my criticism stems from...the Astra itself will do fine, but the federalization costs may have been better absorbed with unique versions, rather than a 3/5 door that can only demand so much of a premium--as for extending the life of the current ION, a few new plastic panels & an interior MCE that adopted the Cobalt's MCE (to share cost) might have gotten GM the remaining S-series fans that have been abandoned by the new direction.

no, the press would have grilled that big time.

saturn's only hope for continued existence was simple. "your only option at this point is to become Opel America". The folksy cute car from kentucky yearly picnic BS had worn thin and was out of date. And you cannot make a living for a brand off small cars alone.

considering that buyers are always supposedly clamoring for more euro cars here in the US, it was about the only path which allowed saturn to exist. Saturn remained because of their customer service appeal. Their entire car lineup was changed over, it needs time to register. The Astra, being an Opel was a better way to communicate the new brand DNA.....that being 'American Opel'.

Astra sedan is available but can be confused with the Cobalt. They should have an Astra sedan here, yes. I agree. But at least to some degree you are not at all confusing an Astra with a Cobalt because there is no Astra coupe or Astra sedan. Next astra better have sedan available.

There should have been an Astra redline. My guess is GM thought it too expensive and too reliability risky for the 2 year planned run.

I contend that Saturn needs to actually change the Saturn experience now. Remodel your bland dealerships. Start taking GM card. Have flashy ads. Saturn's entire problem with the folksy image bit is that it's not sexy and sexy sells cars. Dull and lame does too, (ask HOnda and toyota), but Saturn's only way to appeal to anyone based on cars is to sex them up.

Sexy cars + great customer service can = a success for saturn. However, if they are missing either piece, they are screwed.

To me, Saab muddies up Saturn. That's the real mess, but I think both brands may benefit if Saab and Saturn were sold together. Or, sell Saturn and Saab with Hummer and Caddy. At least sell Saab with Caddy. Saab needs to be paired with other GM brands to gains some exposure!

Edited January 15, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

no, the press would have grilled that big time.

saturn's only hope for continued existence was simple. "your only option at this point is to become Opel America". The folksy cute car from kentucky yearly picnic BS had worn thin and was out of date. And you cannot make a living for a brand off small cars alone.

considering that buyers are always supposedly clamoring for more euro cars here in the US, it was about the only path which allowed saturn to exist. Saturn remained because of their customer service appeal. Their entire car lineup was changed over, it needs time to register. The Astra, being an Opel was a better way to communicate the new brand DNA.....that being 'American Opel'.

Astra sedan is available but can be confused with the Cobalt. They should have an Astra sedan here, yes. I agree. But at least to some degree you are not at all confusing an Astra with a Cobalt because there is no Astra coupe or Astra sedan. Next astra better have sedan available.

There should have been an Astra redline. My guess is GM thought it too expensive and too reliability risky for the 2 year planned run.

I contend that Saturn needs to actually change the Saturn experience now. Remodel your bland dealerships. Start taking GM card. Have flashy ads. Saturn's entire problem with the folksy image bit is that it's not sexy and sexy sells cars. Dull and lame does too, (ask HOnda and toyota), but Saturn's only way to appeal to anyone based on cars is to sex them up.

Sexy cars + great customer service can = a success for saturn. However, if they are missing either piece, they are screwed.

To me, Saab muddies up Saturn. That's the real mess, but I think both brands may benefit if Saab and Saturn were sold together. Or, sell Saturn and Saab with Hummer and Caddy. At least sell Saab with Caddy. Saab needs to be paired with other GM brands to gains some exposure!

While I think you're right, you mention a number of other issues that the Saturn re-position brings up:

Saab is pushed upward (which I don't think it can support, but that's a separate rant), Pontiac/Buick gets pushed to the side, & the Opels could just have easily had a different badge here other than Saturn...and if Saturn is sexy, what is Pontiac?

I guess it's more a tribute to how badly 'damaged' certain brands were that GM decides that they're better off rebuilding and expanding one without negative connotations..but it still makes little sense if Saturns gain is at the expense of multiple divisions, IMO.

[2QuickZ's]

The Astra will sell every one they bring over...my biggest concern is over the direction of their efforts.

Saturn is being given every opportunity to succeed based on the psychographics that GM researched. In other words, Saturn possessed a very positive image (relative to other GM divisions) that someone at GM decided was worth developing. With a limited budget and timeframe, they've done an amazing job---but who has taken notice?

Sales do not reflect this effort....and the loss of the Ion's 100k in sales will further erode the volume. In the meanwhile, Pontiac, Buick & Chevy have lost new product---and sales. When GM regroups and gets to these shortfalls, we're talking another couple of model years...

That's where my criticism stems from...the Astra itself will do fine, but the federalization costs may have been better absorbed with unique versions, rather than a 3/5 door that can only demand so much of a premium--as for extending the life of the current ION, a few new plastic panels & an interior MCE that adopted the Cobalt's MCE (to share cost) might have gotten GM the remaining S-series fans that have been abandoned by the new direction.

I think GM finally realized they were going to need to sacrifice volume to improve their reputation. The Ion was, dare I say, a horrible little car in it's final iteration. I think it had lost a lot of the good will built up with the previous iterations of the car. An "on the cheap" MCE, while probably maintaining sales volume, would have not done much to improve the reputation of the car. In that regard, I think trading volume for reputation, while in the short term will make the division looker weaker, in the long term will pay dividends. It's a case where GM dumped their "typical" short sighted thinking to plan for the long term. This 2 year import job should set up the next generation Astra for much better sales.

There should have been an Astra redline. My guess is GM thought it too expensive and too reliability risky for the 2 year planned run.

I agree with this statement all the way around. Still, while a redline version would have almost certainly been a money losing proposition in this generation of the Astra, the money may, in the long term, have proven to be well spent. A redline version would have almost certainly drawn in a younger audience and the tuner crowd. I think that would have only helped the next generation Astra.

[regfootball]

While I think you're right, you mention a number of other issues that the Saturn re-position brings up:

Saab is pushed upward (which I don't think it can support, but that's a separate rant), Pontiac/Buick gets pushed to the side, & the Opels could just have easily had a different badge here other than Saturn...and if Saturn is sexy, what is Pontiac?

I guess it's more a tribute to how badly 'damaged' certain brands were that GM decides that they're better off rebuilding and expanding one without negative connotations..but it still makes little sense if Saturns gain is at the expense of multiple divisions, IMO.

that whole post has lots of topics in it that have been debated ad naseum and are all relevant.

I think, this might be what GM is trying to do.

GM finally learned that they needed to take the Chevrolet brand global. Worldwide, they are succeeding with this, and the GMDAT side of the equation is helping this tremendously. In the US, the product mix for Chevy is still more traditional then elsewhere in the world, but Chevy has to become both traditional and a Toyota alternative here at the same time. It's a fine line and may explain in some cases why for example you would end up with a FWD impala vs. a RWD one. In any case, Chevy has to utilize a wide mix of vehicle types and sizes, all with a common 'value' theme and a certain basic function aspect to them. How to steer Chevy in the US alone would be a whole sub topic, but needless to say, Chevy is doing well with trucks still I think, and the Camaro is out soon. Where Chevy needs a boost is upgrading and diversifying its small car options although the Aveo and Cobalt and such are not $h!boxes by any stretch.

It's clear where Cadillac is headed although in my opinion they simply are not filling out their model lineup or updating it fast enough. What I feel hurts Cadillac is they are not follwing up on their Cien and Sixteen concepts, and the DTS, XLR, STS, all need upgrades now. They lack in smaller models, and lack model diversity that BMW and Mercedes have. Still, it's clear to see Cadillac is attempting to play the game right.

Pontiac=mostly holden. RWD for its signature models based on Alpha and Zeta. To keep sales volume up enough to preserve the brand I believe you will always have a volume based Epsilon type product in the Pontiac stable. Niche models like the Solstice will round out the mix. Vibe to me maybe should not be pontiac but Vibe has become an icon of sorts and is a strong brand itself, so GM did not mess with that. G4 sedan (alpha) G6 sedan (epsilon) G8 (zeta) and GTO (zeta coupe) is where I would go with it. I would leave the door open to possibly a firebird down the line if they can distinguish it from the GTO. I would do a G2 (delta car) if market warranted it. I would do a G6 coupe or a G4 coupe / convertible. Losing the Torrent is a big plus. If the next Solstice is on Alpha I see it being a great car with real appeal.

Buick= soft luxury. Mostly FWD based chassis with possible Park Avenue exception on Zeta. Enclave will continue but I feel Buick needs 2 other crossovers pronto. A 2 row version of lambda or epsilon 2, and a smaller Provoq sized crossover. The Lucerne would get remade with a large version of epsilon 2 and I would offer a 'Regal" as a 'small epsilon' car. Bucik cannot support any compacts in my mind.

GMC- Acadia, Terrain, Envoy, all its models, I think is headed in the right direction.

Hummer- I think they are headed in the right direction as well. they need to work on fuel economy and putting nice interiors in their vehicles more than anything else. The HX concept will bust the doors open.

Saab- i just don't think Saab can move up in price until they put out any bombshell cars. Until then, they need to be 'VW alternatives'. the 'anti-passat' or 'snazzier volvo'. For now they should exist as a sister brand to caddy to generate exposure and traffic or to saturn. I would position them between VW and Acura until they can ascend to say, Volvo prices. If they had an AeroX in the showroom, a legit compact, a NICE looking crossover (the 9-4x is bland and needs work) and most of all, a new killer 9-5 in the showroom........they need a new 9-3 also. Saab simply needs to have new models! You could make an argument for killing Saab if you can only starve it, but GM wants to have Saab around elsewhere so they sell it here also. It will always be a niche, they just need to focus it and bring killer personality to the brand.

I think Saturn is trying to be the GM gap filler for the Japanese and Euro intenders who may cross shop VW, Nissan, Honda, metrosexual type cars. Some folks want RWD camaros and some want the antithesis of that. Something like a next gen Saturn Insignia with real euro flavor and AWD and turbo and dsg and all that jazz may snag a Passat intender, or TSX intender or TL intender. Saturn was originally conceived as an 'import fighter' but I think today that means competing as much in 'euro style' or 'import style' as it does just by having a small car that doesn't break down. Saturn's succcess will be more on generating that sort of cultish love that urbanites and educated and such have for cars like VW's and Acuras.....not brutish old style American car types, but the little bit smaller, more tech eurasian flavored intensive cars that that competition sells.

They have a chance to do it, if they don't screw it up. Opel needs to produce great designs and Saturn US cannot afford to eff up the marketing side. This marraige is the only way Saturn can exist without getting slaughtered because I believe chevy will have its day very soon. new malibu is proof of that.

Edited January 15, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I think GM finally realized they were going to need to sacrifice volume to improve their reputation. The Ion was, dare I say, a horrible little car in it's final iteration. I think it had lost a lot of the good will built up with the previous iterations of the car. An "on the cheap" MCE, while probably maintaining sales volume, would have not done much to improve the reputation of the car. In that regard, I think trading volume for reputation, while in the short term will make the division looker weaker, in the long term will pay dividends. It's a case where GM dumped their "typical" short sighted thinking to plan for the long term. This 2 year import job should set up the next generation Astra for much better sales.

I agree with this statement all the way around. Still, while a redline version would have almost certainly been a money losing proposition in this generation of the Astra, the money may, in the long term, have proven to be well spent. A redline version would have almost certainly drawn in a younger audience and the tuner crowd. I think that would have only helped the next generation Astra.

and I agree with this.

[CARBIZ]

The Astra will sell every one they bring over...my biggest concern is over the direction of their efforts.

Saturn is being given every opportunity to succeed based on the psychographics that GM researched. In other words, Saturn possessed a very positive image (relative to other GM divisions) that someone at GM decided was worth developing. With a limited budget and timeframe, they've done an amazing job---but who has taken notice?

Sales do not reflect this effort....and the loss of the Ion's 100k in sales will further erode the volume. In the meanwhile, Pontiac, Buick & Chevy have lost new product---and sales. When GM regroups and gets to these shortfalls, we're talking another couple of model years...

That's where my criticism stems from...the Astra itself will do fine, but the federalization costs may have been better absorbed with unique versions, rather than a 3/5 door that can only demand so much of a premium--as for extending the life of the current ION, a few new plastic panels & an interior MCE that adopted the Cobalt's MCE (to share cost) might have gotten GM the remaining S-series fans that have been abandoned by the new direction.

Are you advocating the cancellation of the Saturn brand? I'm not saying I would disagree with you, but GM is still licking its wounds with the hits it took on cancelling Oldsmobile (it has decimated Chevrolet dealers in Canada, who desperately needed the 'premium' customers that Olds once brought.) We know GM does not have the $$ to spread across 8 brands, so many releases are, at best, stop-gap measures. That is the trouble: GM is structuredfor 50% market share, not 20%.

Herein lies what is probably GM's biggest challenge, now that the legacy costs have largely been tackled: the bloated dealer body. I wholeheartedly agree that ALL the Opel product should be brought to North America. They will sell like crazy here, like they do in Europe and South America. Where I urge caution is to how they are badged. Chevrolet is a power house in the U.S. and its volume trucks keep Chevrolet dealers humming. Chevrolet is just another name in Canada. I predict that the dumping of Opel product into Saturn dealers will destroy (or at least further seriously damage) the Chevrolet name in Canada.

And as I've predicted before, at $4 a gallon the landscape changes. Chevrolet struggles here because at the low end, Canadians treat Hyundai the same (they are, after all, technically all imports) and due to the higher gasoline costs, all the volume Chevy product (even the Impala) does not sell to the same relative degree as in the U.S. Canadians prefer GMC over Chevrolet trucks all the time. If given a choice between solid entries like the Astra, Zafira and other models, it would further erode the Chevrolet base here - and, I dare say, eventually in the U.S. as you guys hit $4+ a gallon.

Where does this end? Will re-badged Opels, sold through Saturn, eat away at Toyota's share because it satisfies the import humpers desire for 'anything imported?' Will that kill off Chevrolet in the process? Does GM care, as long as it keeps Wall Street happy? Many people on this board speak in disdain about the Chevrolet name, but at the end of it all, General Motors has to decide which brands they are going to promote world-wide and DO it.

Hell, even McDonalds get's that. A Big Mac is a Big Mac here, as in Tel Aviv, Sao Paulo and London.

[pow]

I took an ASTRA XE for a spin earlier today. It stickered at $18-something-K and had two options: air conditioning and the automatic transmission. Overall, it drove very nicely - nice steering feel, good brake feel, excellent ride quality, very low levels of noise, and an overall sense of refinement and solidity. The interior is a bit drab, the door slams don't have as pleasing a "thunk" as a Rabbit's, nor is the back seat or cargo area as spacious, but everything is well-made and the materials can't be faulted. I wouldn't call the ASTRA a "premium" small car, but it's definitely a good, solid compact entry.

[enzl]

Are you advocating the cancellation of the Saturn brand? I'm not saying I would disagree with you, but GM is still licking its wounds with the hits it took on cancelling Oldsmobile (it has decimated Chevrolet dealers in Canada, who desperately needed the 'premium' customers that Olds once brought.) We know GM does not have the $$ to spread across 8 brands, so many releases are, at best, stop-gap measures. That is the trouble: GM is structuredfor 50% market share, not 20%.

Herein lies what is probably GM's biggest challenge, now that the legacy costs have largely been tackled: the bloated dealer body. I wholeheartedly agree that ALL the Opel product should be brought to North America. They will sell like crazy here, like they do in Europe and South America. Where I urge caution is to how they are badged. Chevrolet is a power house in the U.S. and its volume trucks keep Chevrolet dealers humming. Chevrolet is just another name in Canada. I predict that the dumping of Opel product into Saturn dealers will destroy (or at least further seriously damage) the Chevrolet name in Canada.

And as I've predicted before, at $4 a gallon the landscape changes. Chevrolet struggles here because at the low end, Canadians treat Hyundai the same (they are, after all, technically all imports) and due to the higher gasoline costs, all the volume Chevy product (even the Impala) does not sell to the same relative degree as in the U.S. Canadians prefer GMC over Chevrolet trucks all the time. If given a choice between solid entries like the Astra, Zafira and other models, it would further erode the Chevrolet base here - and, I dare say, eventually in the U.S. as you guys hit $4+ a gallon.

Where does this end? Will re-badged Opels, sold through Saturn, eat away at Toyota's share because it satisfies the import humpers desire for 'anything imported?' Will that kill off Chevrolet in the process? Does GM care, as long as it keeps Wall Street happy? Many people on this board speak in disdain about the Chevrolet name, but at the end of it all, General Motors has to decide which brands they are going to promote world-wide and DO it.

Hell, even McDonalds get's that. A Big Mac is a Big Mac here, as in Tel Aviv, Sao Paulo and London.

It's a tough call...Saturn got by with 3 models for years...I'm not entirely certain why they need product like the Outlook or Sky---it seems to me that the Outlook should have been a Chevy & the Sky something else--a Nomad, Solstice Coupe or a Buick Reatta---just not a Saturn.

The plastic panels on the Ion lend themselves to quick, cheap extensive changes---and the Cobalt needs an interior MCE desperately, so that's where my above ideas came from. The Delta bones are fine, its the execution that has been questionable.

Saturn with a Vue, Aura & Ion (& hybrids of 2 of them) should sell 250k+/year---to add Minivans, Lambdas & roadsters in order to cut volume seems silly when GM can't afford to properly market all of its nameplates...

It's easy to Monday morning QB, but Buicks strength in China has been well known for years--so the rumored demise of Buick was always remote. Pontiac seems to be the perfect division to take some chances with, yet GM has made it the most direct victim of the B-P-GMC channel strategy.

What's even scarier is that the heavy lifting necessary to give Saab a chance or large Caddy cars hasn't even begun---nor has the small car end of the Chevy line-up (I'm sorry, the daewoos don't cut it & the Cobalt is, at best, average). A Billion here, a billion there and now you're talking real money!

I guess we'll see what happens, but the market for all GMT900s may sh!t the bed, eliminating the $ necessary to do all of this---dicey time to be a product planner at the tubes.

[2QuickZ's]

It's a tough call...Saturn got by with 3 models for years...I'm not entirely certain why they need product like the Outlook or Sky---it seems to me that the Outlook should have been a Chevy & the Sky something else--a Nomad, Solstice Coupe or a Buick Reatta---just not a Saturn.

The plastic panels on the Ion lend themselves to quick, cheap extensive changes---and the Cobalt needs an interior MCE desperately, so that's where my above ideas came from. The Delta bones are fine, its the execution that has been questionable.

Saturn with a Vue, Aura & Ion (& hybrids of 2 of them) should sell 250k+/year---to add Minivans, Lambdas & roadsters in order to cut volume seems silly when GM can't afford to properly market all of its nameplates...

It's easy to Monday morning QB, but Buicks strength in China has been well known for years--so the rumored demise of Buick was always remote. Pontiac seems to be the perfect division to take some chances with, yet GM has made it the most direct victim of the B-P-GMC channel strategy.

What's even scarier is that the heavy lifting necessary to give Saab a chance or large Caddy cars hasn't even begun---nor has the small car end of the Chevy line-up (I'm sorry, the daewoos don't cut it & the Cobalt is, at best, average). A Billion here, a billion there and now you're talking real money!

I guess we'll see what happens, but the market for all GMT900s may sh!t the bed, eliminating the $ necessary to do all of this---dicey time to be a product planner at the tubes.

You make a lot of valid points here, though I still don't agree with the MCE. While injection molds are cheaper than prog dies, they still aren't cheap. Besides, you still have to tool new headlights, grill, facia, etc. if you are going to change the front end styling. That along with an interior redo would have cost a lot of money, especially to make it all look nice and be competitive in fit & finish and quality of materials.

In hindsight, it's easy to say there should have never been an Outlook. If GM new right from the beginning that they were going to produce a Chevrolet version of the lambda, then it should have been obvious up front, too. There is no need for 4 versions of lambda vehicles, especially when they are only differentiated by styling and not powertrains or functionality. There is no doubt that the Sky was an attempt to bring a halo vehicle to Saturn to increase awareness of the brand. I doubt it has done that as well as intended but I'm sure it has helped to some degree. A Buick Reatta would have been an intriguing alternative but I'm sure GM felt at the time that the Saturn brand was more salvagable than Buick.

It is easy for all of us to criticize the way GM is doing things. We can come up with many grand plans and not have to worry about silly little things like budgets and cash flow problems. I'm sure GM management would like to move even faster in their turnaround but they only have so many resources and so much cash. It can't happen all at once. I'm very encouraged that it is happening, though. And while I still see very questionable things happening, I don't see it on anywhere near the frequency that I once did. It gives me a great deal of hope for the future that some of the boneheaded things they have done in the past and continue to do (ex. 50th annv. Impala) will eventually be eliminated all together.

Edited January 16, 2008 by 2QuickZ's

[regfootball]

It's a tough call...Saturn got by with 3 models for years...I'm not entirely certain why they need product like the Outlook or Sky---it seems to me that the Outlook should have been a Chevy & the Sky something else--a Nomad, Solstice Coupe or a Buick Reatta---just not a Saturn.

The plastic panels on the Ion lend themselves to quick, cheap extensive changes---and the Cobalt needs an interior MCE desperately, so that's where my above ideas came from. The Delta bones are fine, its the execution that has been questionable.

Saturn with a Vue, Aura & Ion (& hybrids of 2 of them) should sell 250k+/year---to add Minivans, Lambdas & roadsters in order to cut volume seems silly when GM can't afford to properly market all of its nameplates...

It's easy to Monday morning QB, but Buicks strength in China has been well known for years--so the rumored demise of Buick was always remote. Pontiac seems to be the perfect division to take some chances with, yet GM has made it the most direct victim of the B-P-GMC channel strategy.

What's even scarier is that the heavy lifting necessary to give Saab a chance or large Caddy cars hasn't even begun---nor has the small car end of the Chevy line-up (I'm sorry, the daewoos don't cut it & the Cobalt is, at best, average). A Billion here, a billion there and now you're talking real money!

I guess we'll see what happens, but the market for all GMT900s may sh!t the bed, eliminating the $ necessary to do all of this---dicey time to be a product planner at the tubes.

simply put....buff books don't like the plastic panels, creates HUGE panel gaps. journalists don't like it and neither do customers. in real world the benefit outweighs the marketing impediment of that, but the marketing impediment creates a tough sell. a managers job to success is to remove obstacles for the employees beneath him or her so the employees can just do the work. a marketers job is to remove the impediments to buying something so people can just buy it. plastic panels represented an impediment, so they removed it. Even though saturn's identity was from a space frame with skin, it clearly got to the point where people got fussier about the panel gaps than they appreciated the method of build. I am surprised they chaven't changed the corvette yet to steel body.

Plus, Opel=Saturn and if saturn had to keep doing skin+spaceframe, it would have required opel to switch to that as well. NO can do.

current delta chassis is too small. it needs to be sentra-sized. for stop gap this year and next, its ok.

sky outsells solstice so i think sky in the lineup is justified.

hey did anyone notice in the other thread where now basically caddies were going to be the only 'car' platforms developed int he US? I know GM is global now, but GM will probably have very few engineers left in the US for cars if that's the case. At least if its caddies its the premeire product in the GM stable.

Saturn outlooks biggest flaw, it got an inferior interior to the Acadia. the outlooks interior is very nice but the acadias is just that much more dynamic. that plus the acadias grille is a bit nicer and the GMC name is 'tough'. Saturn could EASILY fix the outlooks market appeal with a few thing......

EXCLUSIVE COLOR PALETTE and GET RID OF CHROME

REVISED PRICING AND MORE SENSIBLE / VALUE ADDED OPTION PACKAGING

SPORT SUSPENSION and slightly lower ride. target CX-9 for handling etc.

Revise the interior with interesting colors and cloths and swtichgear. maybe even upgrade plastics. NO WOOD!

Exclusive engine options or at least upgraded (i.e. direct injection and paddle shifters)

unique stereo options

grille and headlight changes (more aggressive, get BOLD with it)

TAKE GM CARD

Basically if we can make an opelized outlook with red line performance and euro out the interior as much as they can......

then it is different than the acadia and chevy and then it is also a competitor they can target vs. the CX-9 which is the darling of the moment.

also, give the outlook a dual mode hybrid yesterday and they will FLY out the showroom.

Edited January 16, 2008 by regfootball

[PurdueGuy]

simply put....buff books don't like the plastic panels, creates HUGE panel gaps. journalists don't like it and neither do customers. in real world the benefit outweighs the marketing impediment of that, but the marketing impediment creates a tough sell.

I still think GM/Saturn could find a way to make the panel gaps smaller or less noticeable. I'm not sure that the average customer cares, and many of those that do only care because journalists tell them to. I'm sure there are some who notice and care, and probably some subconsious impressions that they leave on many others, but I think the overall looks of a vehicle, brand and vehicle reputation/image, price, and other things waaaay overshadow the effect of panel gaps.

plastic panels represented an impediment, so they removed it. Even though saturn's identity was from a space frame with skin, it clearly got to the point where people got fussier about the panel gaps than they appreciated the method of build.

Actually, my impression has been that the panel gap thing was perhaps a secondary reasoning for getting rid of the polymer. Being able to build a Saturn in any plant without having to invest in new polymer-related equipment (read: manufacturing flexability) may have been as much or more of a reason.

Plus, Opel=Saturn and if saturn had to keep doing skin+spaceframe, it would have required opel to switch to that as well. NO can do.

Might be a bit of after-the-fact reasoning (depending on when decisions were made inside GM), but true enough.

current delta chassis is too small. it needs to be sentra-sized. for stop gap this year and next, its ok.

Too small for what? The size keeps creeping up with each new vehicle it seems. Of course with the NG Corsa supposedly coming, the NG Astra might be ok a little bigger.

sky outsells solstice so i think sky in the lineup is justified.

It's also justified since it also exists as an Opel, so supplying Saturn with the same thing with different badges doesn't add a lot of cost for the company.

hey did anyone notice in the other thread where now basically caddies were going to be the only 'car' platforms developed int he US? I know GM is global now, but GM will probably have very few engineers left in the US for cars if that's the case. At least if its caddies its the premeire product in the GM stable.

and Volt, right?